Tuesday, November 3, 2020

Suloise vs Baklunish

 From: Allen [gargoyle@GVI.NET]

Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 4:35 PM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] (Suloise vs Baklunish)

>While I am sort of on this Suloise kick--what makes anyone think the current batch of barbarians found on the Thillonrian Peninsula have anything to do ith their ancient Suloise forefathers ( or fore-mothers if you follow the matriarchal lineage idea), or in any way but the most crude resemble the vikings of Old Earth?

My own take on this has been that the Thillornian Penn. was inhabited by a minor race when the seul refugees made it there. Through various conflicts, politics, etc., the two peoples merged into one, retaining mostly cultural elements of the original race and the reiligion and appearance of the seul. Not perfect, but it works ...

> They were the ragged remains of a people that first invaded what is now the Yeomanry and Keoland. After consecutive drubbings they ended up in lands no one else either owned or wanted. So some questions I have ...

> Who taught them about boats? I haven't a clue on this one.

> Would they even bother with a batch of deities that more-or-less failed to prevent the downfall of one of the greatest empires the Oerth has ever seen? Llerg, yes! Maybe even Norebo. But Braim, Beltar, Lydia, and Lendor, probably not. I don't see mages as having real high status among the Thillonrian barbarians--magery was equally responsible for everyone on the sub-continent hating them with a passion. So Wee Jas probably wouldn't have a real big following their either. You might be able to give Xerbo, Phyton, Phaulkon, and Furtubo more "macho" aspects. Rough them up a bit and give them a cruder, less subtle edge. Kord needs to become more than just the god of sports. IMC he has a very strong storm aspect (sort of the Stormbull of the north, ala RQ). Pyremius (the poisonous dwarf) and Syrul (his lying mom) are just deities of those sour old folks who remember the good old days when the Suloise enslaved everyone and sacrificed them on bloody altars.

> How did such a decadent culture (as the Suel Dominion) lend itself to survival in the frozen north? It probably didn't. I would say they probably copied the survival techniques and society of some other unnamed (possibly Flani) culture already living in the area. Maybe they intermarried, maybe they didn't. Maybe they were just successful enough to overwhelm the natives, subjugate them and maintain a few of the Old Ways.

> Anyway, just a few thoughts on what many folk take to be assumptions.

>--Chris Jarvis

My list of deities for the Thillornian barbarians is likewise different from the standard seul - I include many norse or norse-like deities.

Oeridian Origins

 From: Noel Graham [vision.at.work@JUNO.COM]

Sent ; Saturday, November 21, 1998 2:14 PM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Oeridian Origins (was AGGHHHAA!!!!)

Now, imagine if the Oeridians were once an evolved culture from the region now known as the Land of Black Ice. After some cataclysmic event, most of the survivors were forced into a nomadic role. Perhaps some small facet of their culture, much defeated, even alien by current standards, remains in Blackmoor. Or, perhaps Blackmoor developed from a rival or subjugated/subservient (formery dependent?) culture making use of the remains (or dealing proximately with them).

The Oeridians may have had an advanced seafaring aspect, based around the Drawmidj. Upon the destruction/internal collapse of their society, they moved south and west along the coast into what is now the Baklunnish lands. Of course, some traveled even more south or east, but this discussion focuses on the coastal migrations.

Start with the Baklunnish indeed inhabiting the southerly realms of what today is said to be old Suel lands (Sea of Dust) and some amount of the Dry Steppes. Bring the Suel in from the SW and into conflict with the Baklunnish. This cultural clash, both militarily, magically, and philosophically (including religion) continues as the Suloise invaders press the Baklunnish ever northward.

The B. resist conquest, but the struggles are as much interrupted by the need for commerce to support the agricultural/lifestyle alterations occurring as part of the movements. Still, the enmities are deeply founded. After the eventual conflict of the Rain of Colorless Fire/Invoked Devastation, the B. are driven in whole northward to the Drawmidj coast.

During this time, the B. also came into conflict with the Oeridians. These embittered nomads had not the strength to resist the B. with some even becoming mercenary forces in the B./S. conflicts. Other tribes of the O. were absorbed into the B., with only the Uli retaining any significant territory unto itself. Over the course of events the momentum of the O. flow westward becomes reversed, sending what portion that retains its cultural/racial identity back into the Flanaess. There, they are followed, at least in some small part, by the B. (who pretty much stop at the Yatils).

The migratory chart of the races found in the '83 Guide (p. 10) is only partially accurate, then, as it does not reflect the "total" movements of the Oeridians and attempts to retrofit their presence south of the Burneal Forest by saying they expanded their population, while still being turned back by the Flannae (what? near) the modern (pre-Wars) Rovers holdings.

It seems far more likely the Oeridians integrated with the Flan inhabitants of the region to create the Chakyik and Wegweir. Still, the text (for the Wolf Nomads, at least) claims these nomads are of B. extraction, verily overlooking the equal O. presence indicated by the p.10 migrations map. For the purposes of explanation, consider that this quantification has been done relatively recently in Flanaess history.

Assuming the some amount of the O. did become racially absorbed by the B. moving northward (perhaps some were already present when the O. got there) from the south, this racial confusion is to be expected. The '83 box gave me a fit on this point when I first read it (oh, long enough ago). The O. were being characterized by their pure-blood appearance, which the cross-breeds didn't possess. The B. were being given credit for the rest, seemingly for no more reason than their historically recent presence west of the Yatils (they're nearby).

My apologies for not being more detailed (but not less long-winded ::smile::). I posted more elaborate explanations back at the beginning of the year, but they were generally overlooked then. Assuming my way of making things terribly complex is actually of interest to folks, I'll try to compile more of it together in the coming months for posting. (I say months because the holiday seasons are virtually upon us, and y'all know what a bear it is to work during them, and because of other projects *demanding* my time.)

Placing GH legends in chronology

 From: Mark Barazzuol [markb@intergate.bc.ca]

Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 11 :36 AM

To: 'greyhawk@MPGN.COM'

Subject: RE: [GREYHAWK] - Placing GH legends in chronology

I am attempting to place several of the historical and legendary figures of Oerth in a chronological order to help determine the possible influence and interaction between them.

I am looking for info on the powerful Mages, Liches and King-Priests ofhistory such as:

Tuerny, Lum, Acerak, Vecna, Tsojcanth, Cuthbert, and any others that come to mind.

Most of the time, all the books give you is "A long time back," or many centuries ago ..

Tuerny had influence over part of the great kingdom if I remember correctly, he may have controlled all of it at one time with his demonic servants. The artifact later turned on it's creator, and well, let's just say the rest is what you see of Tuerny now .. Given that time frame, it would put him in Early Great Kingdom history. Depending on the way you look at it possibly even before the formation of the great kingdom. (If you believe there was civilized life there before ..

Baron Lum was a noble under the rule of one of the Kings of Aerdy. He had - quite a rivalry going between himself and Leuk-o another who discovered one of those technological artifacts. He is definitly one of those early great kingdom personages too. No firm dates given.

Acerak is easily the most ancient of those you listed there. With the POSSIBLE exeception of Tsojcanth, depending on how you look at his time period. We know Acerak's empire was around the Sunndi area, and it existed before that place turned into a swamp. Given that there is no record of it with even early Great Kingdom history I would place them at least 500 years before the migration. Probally even 1000. Also given that Acerack had to be extremely old at that time. I would say the kingdom itself would have had to have lasted at very least 1000 years. (It does take a while for a lich to turn to dust..)

There is so much conflicting stuff on Vecna I can't really tell you .. Probally 1000+ years ago his empire was around. I wouldn't make it too much more than that.. I also don't even know where his empire was supposed to be. Early TSR docs seem to point to the West, somewhere in either the Suel or Oerdian empires. The most current docs point to around the Nyr Dyv area. Go figure ..

To find out how Tsojcanth was you just have to figure, when was the last time Tharizdun was active on Oerth? Given what horrors this guy is responsible for, I'd say he predates any of the history books for any races here. I'd put him 10,000 years back... He seems to be in a time period all to himself.

Cuthbert? No one has even speculated that before.. How old is Celestian? Or Farlanghn? Who knows? It's probally got to take a while to get up to that status. Realistically, I don't see any of the gods with "Medevil" styles to them originating on Oerth at all. Back when they were actually mortal (if they ever were .. ) the time period wouldn't have reached a Medevil point in Oerth culture.. No, probally like Mayheine they migrated. Maybe it wasn't from too far though .. Remember, there's lots of life on some of the other planets in the Oerth solar system. Some like Kule which have had long dead civilizations.. Who knows?

Excerpts from The Scarlet Brotherhood

 From: Sean K Reynolds [skreyn@wizards.com]

Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 2:42 PM

To: greyhawk@MPGN.COM

Subject: Re: [GREYHAWK] - A Suel Monk, we need a fresh approach

> I will await Sean's version of the Scarlet brotherhood before I talk about Monks and Assassins again.

Excerpts from The Scarlet Brotherhood:

"lt was on the first day of the year 5091 that I presented my vision to the council of nobles. The Brotherhood of the Scarlet Sign was to be an organization whose sole intent was to prevent the dilution of the virtues of our people. The war with the Bakluni was not preventing contact with their nefarious race, and excursions from rebellious Roka, Chebi, and Hochebi, as will as visitors from the west and south were polluting our people with their flesh and their culture. The Brotherhood would be beholden to the ideals of Suel culture, while forswearing physical and mental corruption; their purity would be like a flame, searing the unworthy and branding the inferior. Despite some resistance from some of the obviously tainted houses, the council and the king approved of my plan and presented me with a mansion and funds to use to create this order ...."

- Kevelli Mauk

founder of the Scarlet Brotherhood and survivor of the Rain of Colorless Fire

from The Journal Of Kevelli Mauk

"Although Kevelli died in 5105 SD, his teachings lived on and he was succeeded by his most talented student, Reshek Nes. Reshek followed his mentor1s lead and created a strict regimen for the most talented students, resulting in a monk-like state of strength through discipline and denial. Over the next hundred years, the members of the Scarlet Brotherhood developed their methods of unarmed combat, realizing that there would be many situations where an empty hand and an innocent face would be the most valuable weapon. "

(From the history of the Scarlet Brotherhood.)

FYI, I made my turnover for this project at the end of September - it's too late to make any major changes to the design at this point.

- Sean

Sean K Reynolds

Designer, TSR Creative Services I skreyn@wizards.com

Check out the Dragon Dice demo/tournament program at

http://www. tsr. com/DragonDice/ddtournament. html

"Lyzandred" on AOL's Instant Messenger, "15693685" on ICQ


To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe greyhawk' as the body of the message.

Greyhawk Wars Timeline, Month by Month

 From: Pat Ellis [PatEllis15@AOL.COM]

Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 8:43 AM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: [GREYTALK] Wars Timeline, Month by Month

Someone was looking for a month by month timeline of the Greyhawk Wars. Well, here it is. I should say that I did this work about 5 years ago, and my campaign differs slight from "canon". I've tried to make the obvious changes (i.e. IMC it was the Spindrift's captured by the S.B., not the Lordship), but chances are there ARE mistakes in here .... In fact taking another look at it, I probably added a bit just to flesh it out, there may be NO reference to show where I found some of this stuff ...



"Joining of Forces, Barbarians and Fists"


Sevvard Red Beard becomes "General" of the barbarian forces


Sacking of Calbut

Siege of Nevond Nevnend

Fall ofTenh

Vatun revealed as luz, Barbarians disband

Fall of Horned Society


Bandit Kingdoms absorbed by luz

Fall of the Shield Lands


luz pushes toward the Pale, but is ground to a stalemate.(*)


Fall of Crockport

Siege of Chendl begins

Alliance between Aerdy and the Bone March (*)

Siege of Chendl is broken


Fall of Sunndi

Aerdy armies enter the Adri Forest, and Iron Hills (*)

Osson's raid begins with penetration into the South Province


Osson Liberates Sunndi

Siege of Nulbish (*)


Osson invades and "Conquers" Medegia

Spidasa flees to Rauxes, and suffers the endless death


Assassination of Price Latmac Ranolg (*)

Note During the winter between 582 and 583, a number of treaties, or agreements must have been signed: Between luz, and Ket, Furyondy got some allies, Nyrond looked for support from Urnst etc.



Belvor is able to mobilize the southern armies and march them North in Furyondy

Lordship of the Isles are taken by the Scarlet Brotherhood


Turrosh Mak invades and takes the southern areas of the Wild Coast

Turrosh Mak invades eastern Principality of Ulek

Turrosh Mak takes the lower Lortmils, but is finally ground to a halt.


Celene recalls all troops and becomes isolationist

Osson's army is destroyed by Aerdy in Medegia


Medegia is pillaged


S.B. moves north, and takes ldee, and Onnwall (Note I'm assuming this occurred here, but I can't be certain as it didn't happen IMC).

Sea Princes fall to the S.B.


Sterrich, Geoff are overrun by Giants, the Yeomany collapses (did it?)

Northern Furyondy is fully in the control of luz


Eradication of Almor

Bissel invaded by Ket

Execution of generals by lvid. later, reanimated as Animus'


Invasion of Nyrond (ground to a halt with little gain, large loss of life)

Assassination of lvid (reanimated as an animus)

North Province breaks away as Nyrond pushes back (*)

Collapse of Aerdy


Council of Greyhawk Convenes

Anything marked with a * is probably of my own creation. Let's edit away! If you know of something else that should be included, or that should be changed let me know and I'll change it...

Pat E


The GREYtalk Discussion List LISTADMIN: owner-greytalk@mitvma.mit.edu


Questions? Ask the ADMIN (or look for the new archival address soon.) Try the GT FAQ: http://members.aol.com/SavantSage/greytalk/greyfaq.txt


To unsubscribe, send "SIGNOFF GREYTALK" to listserv@mitvma.mit.edu or, to toggle the digest mode send "SET GREYTALK DIGEST (or NODIGEST)" For complete LISTSERV commands, send "INFO REFCARD" to the listserver.


Azalin Greyhawk timeline

 From: Dr. Rainer Nagel [rnagel@GOOFY.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE]

Sent: Monday, September 28, 1998 6:47 AM


Subject: [GREYTALK] Azalin (very long)

The two Ravenloft novels _King of the Dead_ and _Lord of the Necropolis_ (both by Gene De Weese) contain a lot of information about Azalin's days on Oerth. Since those of you who create timelines might be interested, I'm posting a summary here. Since we're talking about books, not adventures, the info presented here might not be. canon, but at least it is canonical within Ravenloft, since it appears verbatim in other RL products.

231 CY

The man who will later become known as Azalin is born in Knurl as Firan Zal'honan, 2nd son of Earl Turalitan Zal'honan, ruler of Knurl. He has an older brother, Ranald, who is a glutton. (KING, p. 81, implied - the action starts in 246 CY and Firan is 15 years old).

234 CY

A younger brother, Irik, is born, who grows up to be loved most by the populace. (KING, p. 81, implied)

246 CY

Firan attempts a "Grand Summoning", together with lrik and the Nyrondese mage Corsalus. The summoning goes wrong, due to a mistake by Corsalus and Firan's faltering at a crucial time. A fiend takes possession of lrik. Earl Turalitan kills his son in demon form, not recognizing him. (KING, p. 89-114) Later that year, Firan relocates to Eastfair (reaching it at the beginning of Fireseek - p. 120) to become an apprentice with Quantarius (a mage who was exiled from Knurl after the lrik incident). Firan is considered to be quite talented. (KING, p. 115-125)

255 CY

Firan defends the caravan of Merchant Glodreddi highly competently against an ambush. He displays first evil tendencies. (KING, p. 126-131)

270 CY

A School of Magic, led by Quantarius, has been established at Eastfair, with Firan being its most highly skilled member. Firan's father dies and is replaced by Ranald.

275 CY

Firan has learned how to collect the life energies of the dying and to apply them to rejuvenate. Quantarius is not pleased and tells Firan of a disturbing prophecy that he should no try to cheat death. Firan finally leaves for Rauxes. (KING, p. 143-149)

283 CY

Firan helps quell a rebellion against the ruling house (which is not named; but their prince is called Edron). Firan lusts for power [he's probably LE at this point]. Then Ranald dies and Firan is recalled to Knurl which he frees of bandits and scheming mages. The people proclaim him "Azal'lan', meaning "wizard king" in Old Ceridian. (KING: 150-165)

283 CY - 291 CY

In the following years, Firan swears fealty to the Malachite Throne and rules Knurl with a heavy hand. He discourages priesthoods which leads to the almost total annihilation of wors~ip in Knurl. Despite frequent infusions of life energy, he begins to. age. (KING, p. 167f.)

291 CY

Firan, who is now respected and feared throughout the Flanaess, coerces a woman named Olessa, daughter of one Count Delaric, into marriage after killing her erstwhile suitor (unbeknownst to her). The marriage is not happy and remains childless. (KING, p. 167-177)

308 CY

Firan finds out that Olessa had herself purposely made barren by a gypsy woman. He finds a way to undo this and fathers a son. Olessa dies in childbed. (KING: p. 176-181)

318 CY

Firan becomes concerned that lrik feels drawn more to the peasants than to the ruling classes (as did his mother). He shows no signs of liking Firan's way of ruling. (KING, p. 182-186) In the following years, Firan's hold over Knurl begins to weaken (KING, p.186)

321 CY

Irik begins to conspire against his father. (KING, p. 184-186)

327 CY

Irik is caught and executed by his father for treason. Firan begins to hear voices (actually the powers of Ravenloft). They persuade him to become a lich [alignment shift to CE?]. (KING, p. 187-198)

329 CY

Firan becomes a lich. (KING, p. 198-203) From this year onwards ("for threescore years" - KING, p. 204), Firan searches for a means to revive his son [remember: no priests in Knurl!]. In the meantime, he seizes the Teesar Valley, the Flinty Hills, the Blemu Hills, and the Adri Forest and installs a reign of terror. He creates an army of unded from slain enemies and dissidents. (KING, p. 204-206)

391 CY

Firan's armies capture lnnspa (KING, p. 206). He is tricked into a trap by his trusted lieutenant Stakaster (KING, p. 207-216), escapes [he has to run away because he doesn't know Teleport, would you believe it] and is brought to Ravenloft by the Mists (KING, p. 219-236). He emerges in Barovia in the year 542, Barovian Calendar. There he forms an uneasy alliance with Strahd Von Zarovich which lasts until 579 Barovian Calendar. Then, he gets to be Lord of his own domain, Darkon.

I spare you the details of Azalin's activities in Ravenloft (save for the mention that Patricia Nead Elrod's _I, Strahd: The War Against Azalin_ contains a good account of this conflict with excellent Azalin characterization).

In the end, it turns out that the Ravenloft powers had influenced Firan from tbe moment of his birth and marked him for some sinister purpose. (LORD, p. 170-172) This purpose turns out to be the freeing of the Ravenloft powers while searching for a means to revive his son. (LORD, 283f.)

Azalin finally finds out about this and prevents it. He manages to return to Oerth in 246 CY, at the time of the Grand Summoning, to change events -but ends up _creating_ them by causing his younger self's indicision at the crudial moment himself. He is finally absorbed by the Ravenloft powers, condemned to watch his actions all over again. Darkon becomes a necropolis. (LORD, p. 290-301)

588 CY

There is a short epilogie dealing with two characters called Oldar and Balitor, former subjects of Azalin to whom he had taken a liking. Before his final fall {and the transformation of Darkon into a necropolis) he promised to send them to safety, which they find on Oerth, their memories of Darkon being only bad dreams. {LORD, p. 302f.)

All right, this does it. I hope it is of yome service to some of you.



The GREYtalk Discussion List LISTADMIN: owner-greytalk@mitvma.mit.edu


Questions? Ask the ADMIN {or look for the new archival address soon.) Try th.~ GT FAQ: http://members.aol.com/SavantSage/greytalk/greyfaq.txt


To unsubscribe, send "SIGNOFF GREYTALK" to listserv@mitvma.mit.edu or, to toggle the digest mode send "SET GREYTALK DIGEST {or NODIGEST)" For complete LISTSERV commands, send "INFO REFCARD" to the listserver.


Vecna, and Product Timeline

From: Pierre-Paul Durastanti [elvelyn@CLUB-INTERNET.FR]

Sent: Sunday, September 27, 1998 2:38 PM


Subject: [GREYTALK] Vecna, and Product Timeline

Immaculate Image wrote:

>I think somebody said that Vecna lives was set in 584(6)?

According to Greyhawk: the Adventure Begins, by Roger E. Moore, it is set "around 582 CY or shortly before" (GtAB, page 2).


"First wave" of products ('NoG folio, WoG boxed set): 576 CY (GtAB, page 2).

WG5 Morderkainen's Fantastic Adventure: "before 570 CY, perhaps as early as 560" (GtAB, page 3).

WG6 Isle of the Ape: "years before the Greyhawk wars" (GtAB, page 3).

T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil: "prior to the Greyhawk Wars, in the mid- to late 570s" (GtAB, page 3)

A 1-A4 Scourge of the Slave-Lords: "picks up where T1-4 ... leaves off" (GtAB, page 3).

"Second wave" (GH Adventures, CoG boxed set, WG8 Fate of lstus, WGA 1-3 "Falcon" trilogy, WGA4 Vecna Lives): "around 582 CY or shortly before" (GtAB, page 2).

The "Falcon" trilogy chronicles events that are "assumed to have taken place just before WGA4 ... occurred".

"Third wave" (GH Wars, FtA and subsequent accessories): 584 CY (GtAB, page 2).

"Bridge" product (Return of the Eight): 585 CY (GtAB, page 2).

"Fourth wave" (PGtGH, G:tAB}: 585-591 CY (GtAB, page 2).

Star Cairns is not specifically dated. It's supposed to be set after Rary went to the Bright Desert, though, since there's a reference to "the so-called "Empire of the Bright Sands" of the archmage Rary" (SC, page 5, "The Modern Cairn" section). Also, Jallarzi Sallavarian is a member of the Circle of Eight (SC, page 2, "Recent Events" section).


P .-P. Durastanti: elvelyn@club-internet.fr

Groupe des Fauconniers Gris: ggf@netultra.net

Liste de diffusion sur Greyhawk: oerth@netultra.net

Liste de diffusion sur la SF francophone: sffranco@physics.utoronto.ca


The GREYtalk Discussion List LISTADMIN: owner-greytalk@mitvma.mit.edu


Questions? Ask the ADMIN (or look for the new archival address soon.) Try the GT FAQ: http://members.aol.com/SavantSage/greytalk/greyfaq.txt


To unsubscribe, send "SIGNOFF GREYTALK" to listserv@mitvma.mit.edu or, to toggle the digest mode send "SET GREYTALK DIGEST (or NODIGEST}" or complete LISTSERV commands, send "INFO REFCARD" to the listserver.


Giant Troubles, PS GH Revisionism

 From: Otto Zequeira [OTETA@AOL.COM]

Sent: unday, September 20, 1998 10:05 PM


Subject: [GREYTALK] Giant Troubles, PS GH Revisionism

The Giant Troubles

On Sun, 13 Sep 1998 12:11 :34 -0500, Vashnaar Q Mithruin <vashnaar@RR1 .NET> asked, "I need to nail down he month and year that the Giants and Humanoids invaded Sterich and Geoff. I figure Susebb 583-Fireseek 584. Any other ideas or suggestions would be helpful. I know there are those of you that thrive on placing events and dates."

I wrote down Goodmonth of CY 583, but I can't begin to tell you why right now because I don't remember.

"Are there any modules, post invasion of that area, that i might be able to get ahold of??"

GDQ1-7 works fine here, due to contradictory placement of the modules in the timeline.

PS GH revisionism

On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:05:26 -0400, Ubiquitous <weberm@POLARIS.NET> wrote,"« One might also add in the silliness about certain oerthly powers that appeared in On Hallowed ground. » Oh yeah, that too ... "

What's the word on this? I seem to have missed the news. Was this the stuff about WoGH dieties being dead, or GH dying?


The GREYtalk Discussion List LISTADMIN: owner-greytalk@mitvma.mit.edu


Questions? Ask the ADMIN (or look for the new archival address soon.) Try the GT FAQ: http://members.aol.com/SavantSage/greytalk/greyfaq.txt


To unsubscribe, send "SIGNOFF GREYTALK" to listserv@mitvma.mit.edu or, to toggle the digest mode send "SET GREYTALK DIGEST (or NODIGEST)" For complete LISTSERV commands, send "INFO REFCARD" to the listserver.


Suloise Conundrum

 From: ACERERAK@aol.com

Sent: Thursday, September 10, 1998 8:29 PM

To: greyhawk@MPGN.COM

Subject: [GREYHAWK] - Re: The Suloise Conundrum

<< ... But doesn't their calendar predate that of the Elves?»

Yes, there is approximately a 1,000 year difference between the Olven calendar and the Suel calender. In the year 576 CY (Common Year), it was 6091 SD (Suel Dominion), 5038 OC (Olven Calendar), 3235 BH (Baklunish Hegira), 2726 FT (Flan Tracking), 1220 OR (Oeridan Reckoning). [I'm doing this from memory, so please forgive me if I am off slightly on the names]

<< What sort of picture does everyone else have of the old Suel Dominion? »

Similar to the Roman Empire in structure. Fantastic cities filled with bizarre sights (as compared to "today"). A center of commerce with merchants from all over the world. Terraforming on a massive scale, with the help of magic.

The further away from the capital one gets the less "magical" things become. Walk down the capital city street and you might see a fountain that spews water from thin air, but get out to the fringes and all you see are forts.

Griffon riders would not be uncommon. Bizarre monsters used for manual labor, as well as slaves consisting of humanoids, demi-humans, and non-Suel. A widely segregated city structure - pure Suel in one area, everyone else in another. There may be a caste system which takes "citizenship" into account, and is a goal often strived for. Corruption is rampant within the government and bribery is a way of life. Business is booming, and the imperial coinage is very different from anything seen today. Flying ships land in the port and bring wares from off planet.

We know for sure there is a civil war of sorts going on within the Empire, not to mention an external war with a powerful enemy. Of course, the external war only lasted 63 years, having begane in 5061 SD and ended in 5094 SD. Hmmm, the Scarlet Brotherhood was formed in 5091 SD. I wonder if they had anything to do with it?

<< Post-war Pro-Aerdy Oeridian propaganda paints a very unpleasant picture of them.>>

I tend to think the survivors were the creme de la creme of Lawful Evil arrogant aristocrats and various Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic Evil warrior types who turned to pillaging after their empire was left in ruins. The Suel Basin was most likely filled with "average" people just as the Flanaess is, consisting of farmers. miners, and merchants.

I imagine a lot of monsters were made extinct in the Suel Basin for the safety of its citizens by the government, "Another family of Umber Hulks attacked a village? Sergeant take a battalion and wipe out the whole herd. I'm tired of these interruptions by local fauna!" The Suel Basin was likely a safe place to live in until, well, the untimely end.

<< That is another consideration. How biased was Pluffet Smedger? »

He didn't exist. For all intents and purposes, he was Gary Gygax. However, should we decide to write in a bias to be clever, this seems unlikely. Smedger did not write 99% of the Greyhawk account, he merely created glossographies and compiled the whole into an encyclopedia, and then in turn created D&D to "aid his study". The "Savant-Sage" wrote the account, and it is his original bias that may need examining.

The Savant-Sage lived in Greyhawk city during Oerth's "Epoch of Magic", whatever that is. He compiled an epic 7-volume work called, "Catalogue of the Land Flanaess ... ", but only the third volume survives: "A Guide to the World of Greyhawk". When the Savant-Sage died the work disappeared, but turned up vears later in an lllithid lair in the Rift Canyon. This copy was brought to Rel Mord where it was examined by Pluffet Smedger the Elder, a historian and scholar. Smedger did add some recent or missing information, but by and large the work is the enigmatic Savant-Sage.


World of Greyhawk Fan Club



To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line

'unsubscribe greyhawk' as the body of the message.

Timelines, GDQ and ToEE

 From: Keith Horsfield <afn09454@AFN.ORG>

To: ("GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu")

Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 1:44 PM

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Timelines, GDQ and ToEE

Otto Zequeira wrote:


> T1-4 says that Lolth received a sharp check to her plans, and consequently grew interested in the ToEE. On the flip side, GDQ1-7, which is the 'sharp check' that the module mentions, is placed after the ToEE in the series.

I only own the individual modules of the GDQ series. These modules were written previously in Real Time to T1-4. The inconsistency only comes into play when a DM desires to run a single party through a 'classic campaign' which many consider to be T1-4, A1-4 and then GDQ1-7 with some of the S modules thrown in.

As to the timeline of the GDQ series, I've always placed them prior to 576 CY due to being referenced in the 1980 World of Greyhawk Gazetteer. The Village of Hommlet is also mentioned in the Gazetteer which meshes with the fact that the Battle of Emridy Meadows took place in 569 CY.

>This solution allows the GDQ1-7 to be tied with the Greyhawk Wars invasion of Geoff and Sterich, which is so strikingly similar to the module. I think that Cook may have had this in mind when he wrote "Greyhawk Wars". He is one of the contributing writers to GDQ1-7 after all. This would need confirmation, though.

I think the remnants of the GDQ series was the basis for what happened in Geoff and Sterich, but I believe this was just Lolth through the giants reasserting her power once the joint endeavor at ToEE fails.

>Also, the World of Greyhawk Gazetteer places the Battle of Emridy Meadows at 569 CY, and T1-4 says that for five years later, things were good in Hommlett, but that in the last year banditry has risen (5). This means that the start of the module is about 575-6, which the Gazetteer also says is the time of its own writing.

First, where does the Gazetter say this?

Second, I disagree with your start time for ToEE based on the following, all of which can be found on pg. 5 of ToEE. Starting with the base date of 569 CY for the Battle of Emridy Meadows

Last paragraph 1st column:

"For five years afterward, the village and the countryside have become richer and more prosperous then ever before."

In this paragraph is the mention of the troll and how it was killed by some adventurers. After that adventurers continue to come but find nothing.

1st full paragraph, 2nd column:

"-- and Hommlet continued its quiet existence for four years more."

The beginning of this paragraph states that adventurers have stopped coming to the area.

2nd full paragraph, 2nd column:

"But then, a year ago, the bandits began to ride the roads again ... From my reading of these 3 paragraphs there are 3 distinct periods after the Battle of Emridy Meadows for the village of Hommlet:

1) 5 years where adventurers continue to visit brought by wanderlust

2) 4 years where the village is left in peace

3) 1 year of rising banditry

Therefore, T1-4 is supposed to take place in 579 CY.

>Consequently, I find that Steve W. starts the GDQ series too early in his timeline by placing it on 566, and Ed Zeamba starts T1-4 too late by placing it on 580.

Actually, I tend to agree with these dates. However, there is one other module, WG8, that assumes T1-4 takes place in or prior to 576 CY. Then again, I think the official date of 576 CY for WG8 to be far too early in the timeline. WG8 is supposed to take place 1,000 years after the founding of the Scarlet Brotherhood, which is given as 5091 SD. However, in the Verbobonc section, the author places the module 'a couple of years' after the completion of the castle in Hommlet. IMO, this module should be placed around 581 CY based on the latter. The date given in the Scarlet Masque is based on a prophecy of what is supposed to happen, not what already has happen. How many prophecies occur when they are supposed to? At least IMC, this one came about 5 years after it was supposed to.

Keith Horsfield

Member Team OS/2

"To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

E-mail: afn09454@afn.org

Home page: http://www.afn.org/~afn09454/

Iuz's Imprisonment Date

Chronological Connundrums: Iuz's Imprisonment Date(s)?!

From: Chris Anderson <caa@unify.com>

Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:44:05 

In my campaign, I have dated Iuz's imprisonment to 505. Your suggestion is as good as any other as to the differences in the official sources.

As far as your other questions, I have used:

455: Iggwilv discovers Caverns of Tsojcanth

460: lggwilv first summons and binds Graz'zt

461: Birth of luz

473-483: Iggwilv rules Perrenland

475-479: Rise of luz amongst petty bandits

479: Land of luz conquered by Iuz

483: Imprisonment of lggwilv, banishment of Graz'zt from PMP

505: Imprisonment of luz by Zagyg

The key date here is 483 being the banishment of lggwilv. I used that because I wanted Graz'zt to be able to be summoned to the PMP in 584 (101 years of imprisonment). The other key date is the birth of luz in 461. I used that because it allows him to be 14 years old when he begins his rise to power in the land ofluz, and 18 years old when he conquers it.


> -----Original Message-----

> From: Jason Verbitsky [SMTP:N@bc.sympatico.ca]

> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 1998 12:12 PM

> To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

> Subject: [GREYTALK] Chronological Connundrums: Iuz's Imprisonment

> Date(s)?!

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Chronological Connundrums: luz's Imprisonment Date(s)?!

> -------------------------------------------------------

> When was Iuz imprisoned?


> Unfortunately, the published 'professional'/official sources are not very  helpful or, for that matter, clear (nice editing and proofreading!;):


> "luz's dissapearance in 503 CY was met with a sigh of relief ... Iuz reappeared some sixty-seven years later," (_Marklands_p.3)  (1993: Carl Sargent, Mark Shipley, Karen S. Boomgarden)

 > "the banishment of Iuz, generally dated to 505 CY. ... Sixty-five years of banishment" (_Iuz the Evil_ p.3) (1993: Carl Sargent, Lisa Stevens)

> "luz disappeared in 505 CY, imprisoned beneath the towers of Castle Greyhawk" (_FtA __ AoF p.5) (1992: Carl Sargent, Anne Brown, Michelle Carter)

> "507 Iuz imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk" (_FtA Reference Card # 1) (1992: Carl Sargent, Anne Brown, Michelle Carter, et al.?)


> So what are we to make of this mess that the editors and proofreaders *should* have caught? If canon is what is published by TSR, then we are stuck with it so some creative interpretation is in order (yes, yes, I know we can ignore whatever we want) so that the new Greyhawk can be consistent with the previous published sources but still actually make some sense!


> My, albeit amateur, suggestion is: to have Iuz be last seen in public in Molag in 503CY; but have Iuz actually imprisoned in 505 CY; and have the knowledge of his imprisonment ( or at least the public declaration in his former empire that he was actually missing [if not imprisoned]) occur in 507CY (when it was accepted that he was not merely testing his servants, but rather that he was indeed gone). Well, that's what I'm going with until/unless I hear a better suggestion. Anybody got one?


> One might well ask, why am I'm even bothering with this? Well, as I said before in my "Red Death Plague" message (Dec '97), this period is very important to the historical context of the Rise of the Homed Society in the early 500s CY because they come into a power vacuum created by Iuz's absence so the dating is fairly relevant to my _History of the Homed Society_ project.


> OR, maybe I just missed that errata sheet? If so, would some one be so kind as to forward it to me?


> His Dread and Awful Presence,

> Jason Verbitsky

> N@bc.sympatico.ca

> http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/N/HS.HTM


> P.S. It is passages such as those quoted above which the proper care should be taken to aviod in the Greyhawk revival -- I'm going to trust that the new TSR cares enough about Greyhawk to take the time; everything that I've seen so far points to a change (like Roger actually running several things by GreyTalk. The moral? If they would have done this with the Wars/ Ashes many problems could have easily been avoided ... )

Monday, November 2, 2020

Dead Man's Cove review

 From: Marc Tizoc Gonzalez [mtizoc@SFSU.EDU]

Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 11 :19 PM


Subject: [GREYTALK] Review: AEG: Dead Mans Cove

DMC is designed for character levels four to six, and the cover art (along with the title) suggest accurately the theme of the adventures. As the back cover text states, "Cutthroats and cannons!" Because of my interest in the Pomarj and trade on the Azure Sea, piracy is what prompted me to purchase DMC. However, as the quote indicates, there are aspects of the published adventure that do not mesh well with Greyhawk.

Although it is not a major point of the adventure, cannons and bombs aren't organically based in the Flanaess, so these aspects of the adventure booster should be removed, replaced, or otherwise confronted. As past threads on Greytalk have demonstrated, there are myriad ideas on how to represent sea travel and battle on (and under) the Azure Sea. I direct interested people to the relevant threads. (Use the Archives!)

Having stated a reservation about DMC, let me note my belief that the plot hook and backstory are relatively strong. I find the introductory boxed text to be well written for the most part. Certainly it does a good job given the constraints of space. However, the adventure booster fails regarding the travel required to arrive at the site of adventure. While this is understandable given the aforementioned constraint of space, it means that DMs must do more work.

Before, I suggest some ways to bring DMC into the Flanaess, I want to note three other reservations. I do this because I believe that the adventure booster is good overall. These critiques indicate where I believe it could have been excellent. First, the map is of poor quality. While multiple maps are provided of the locations that need mapping, the maps aren't ready for immediate tactical play. Instead they present important spatial relationships, but scale is missing, which may be even more important in 3e than previous editions. Second, the opposition is too generic; there is almost no differentiation. Basically the PCs are pitted a hundred level three Warriors (although the NPC class is only implied - another flaw)! This is unfortunate and indicates a mediocre comprehension of 3e's combat, which is structured for using fewer combatants than previous editions. Third (and perhaps of especial interest to Greyhawkers), the new monster comes close to being a rip off of Nerull's Drowned Ones. (Or, if that connection is denied, then the monster is basically just a normal zombie.)

My previous critiques should not be taken to indicate that I don't believe DMC to be useful for gaming in Greyhawk. The plot is ripe for enmeshment in the machinations of the southern Flanaess, and the booster may serve to guide DMs in taking on the somewhat daunting arena represented by post-FtA's Azure Sea. While some DMs may be using Slavers to explore the Pomarj, and LGH bases campaigns out of multiple areas of the southern Flanaess, the domination of the Azure Sea by the Scarlet Brotherhood dampens typical adventuring. In other words, post-FtA adventuring on the Azure Sea must contend with the SB, which seems to homogenize a previously interesting and diverse region.

Beginning in the west, the former Hold of the Sea Princes and the Horn of the Amedio Jungle represent ideal locations for DMC. Pre-FtA, Monmurg, Port Toli, and the islands are fine bases for Baldrick Mornstar. The pirates could be other Seolders based away from one of the Amedio forts, or the hideout might actually be one of these forts. Post-FtA, Gradsul provides a better location than Gryrax, but the capital of the Principality of Ulek might work. In this case, Mornstar's enemies might be competing merchants, but it might be fun to connect them to the SB. Perhaps Korvahl is an agent of the SB, or maybe he is allied with the renegade faction, which once ruled the now chaotic parts of the Hold? Korvahl might also be based in Scant, Blue or even Highport, if a DM wanted to direct later adventures to these cities. Before moving far to the east, I want to note that a pre-FtA adventure might be based in Narisban (of the Olman Isles). Perhaps the adventure represents some of the pre-Wars competition between the Sea Princes and the agents of Shar?

Although I posited some Flanaess connections in the west of the Azure Sea, the eastern lands seem to provide a better fit. Pre-Wars, Scant, Irongate, and Naerie all provide fine bases for Mornstar, and the pirate base can be set within the Headlands, Iron Hills, or beyond the Menowood (respectively). While the time to travel therein wouldn't take the two weeks suggested in DMC, the overland journey could provide an interesting adventure in itself. In the Headlands, there would be native Flan hillsmen to deal with for safe (or guided?) passage. Either the Headlands, Iron Hills, or the Hollow Highlands could provide a dwur or noniz encounter. Likewise the hills provide a fine site for combat with humanoids. Given the suggested level for the adventure booster, I think that ogres would be ideal, and those encountered might be from a tribe that roams the Hollow Highlands. Treasure found on the ogres could provide clues that lead to adventure in Sunndi or perhaps into the Vast Swamp. At the border of the Menowood, wolves or worgs should be encountered. An encounter with a ranger, druid, or bard could prelude encounters with wolves to make the players fear lycanthropy. In the hills southeast of Menowood, the pirate base could be used as is, or some connections to Wastri or the SB could be formulated. Perhaps there are some humanoids amongst the pirates like xvarts or norkers? Again, Korvahl could be an agent of the SB. Pre-Wars, the adventure booster could even lead the heroes to sail for Kro Terlep. Perhaps these are the heroes described in tSB as responsible for the destruction of the weeping hexagram?

Post-Wars, Scant is out  of the picture, but Irongate and (later) Naerie might still be useable. In this era, the pirates are almost certainly Mornstar (and hence the heroes) should be aware of this probability.

There are many possible sites on the east coast of the Flanaess too for DMC. From Roland to Pontylver and perhaps even Dullstrand or a city of the Lordship of the Isles - all of these cities could be Mornstar's home city. Roland, Ounsty, and Rel Astra provide the nearby coast of the Lone Heath as a likely place for the pirate cove. In any era, the pirates might actually be goodly aligned freedom fighters. Mornstar could be either neutral or evil; his name could be a title of the priesthood of Hextor (per the OJ article). For Pontylver and Dullstrand, the pirate cove could be somewhere in the coast of the Hestmark Highlands. Overland travel herein would be challenging, and the terrain accords with what is presented in DMC. Finally, pre-Wars, the adventure booster could be set so that either Duxchan or Sulward are the start. The pirate cove could be on another island, or it might be on the same island as the city (though requiring several days of overland travel). Post-Wars, the pirates could be loyal to the Iron League's Lordship of the Isles and fighting against a SB allied Mornstar. Korvahl could be a patron from Rel Astra or Pontylver.

Finally, after deciding a scale for the maps, consider specifying the opposition to include warriors, rogues, fighters, and even supporting clerics (of chaotic neutral, CE, or NE alignments). Also contend with the returning pirate ship. As it stands, the PCs must find certain information to nullify the pirates on the returning ship. PCs should also be able to obtain this information by roleplaying with captured pirates. Consider detailing an NPC for this role, and have him or her turn up as a pirate that survives a combat. If the PCs do cause the ship to crash, then consider detailing some of the survivors. Perhaps a replacement PC could be found either amongst the survivors or as a prisoner? If the ship is destroyed, then the PCs still need to return overland. If they have prisoners, then the return trip should be even more challenging, as prisoners attempt to escape and flee or escape and murder a PC. Some prisoners may try to convince the PCs of their sad life story. An NPC might have been shanghaied and want to return to his or her home port. The PCs might release a SB agent that the pirates captured or a renegade priest (of a variety of gods - Pholtus near the Great Kingdom, the Earth Dragon in the western lands, Vecna anywhere, Wastri near the Vast Swamp, etc.).

If you're interested in piracy, sea based adventures, or the southern Flanaess, then consider using DMC. It should also be said that the adventure booster might be used to the north, near Grendep Bay, or perhaps to the far West on the coasts of the Dramidj Ocean or Gulf of Ghayar!

Monday, October 19, 2020

Greyhawk 2000 Tharizdun

 From: Michael Sears [armitage@MHCABLE.COM]

Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:22 PM


Subject: [GREYTALK] Greyhawk 2000 Tharizdun

I just joined the list, so I don't know if this has been mentioned. I didn't see it in the archive ...

I was just rereading the Greyhawk 2000 adventure "Alterations" in Dungeon #83 and noticed  something disturbing. The adventure mentions Millexium, a magical mineral that only exists in the nuked portions of Iuz's former kingdom. It has the power to enhance spacial manipulation spells and it is described as: " ... a small chip of crystal-embedded rock with a characteristic purple and black swirling pattern."

Purple and black magical rock. .. bad feeling in the pit of my stomach about that, but then I just finished going through a 3e conversion of Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. I suspect that widespread use of Millexium in DIM Rifles would be a bad thing.

Millexium for a standard campaign:

Millexium is a magical mineral that is only created when powerful (8th-level or higher) destructive Evocation magic interacts catastrophically with equally powerful Summoning magic. As a result, most samples have been recovered from the Suloise ruins in the Sea of Dust. All known samples have been no larger than a typical coin and ld6 chips are found in a normal deposit.

Millexium has the ability to enhance any magical effect dealing with the manipulation of space, e.g. Teleport, Dimension Door, Leomund's Secret Chest, Bag of Holding. If a chip is used as a Focus when casting a spell or incorporated into a magic item, the spell's range or area of effect is increased by a factor of 4. (Dimension Door Range 1600 ft.+ 160 ft/level, L's SC 4 cubic feet/level, etc). If a spell has no range, its general effectiveness is quadrupled or its drawbacks are quartered, judged by the DM. e.g. Teleport to a casually seen area has a 12% chance of being off target. With Milexium, it becomes 3%. If such a spel causes damage, Millexium automatically Empowers it, as the Feat.

Unfortunately, the true source of Millexium's power is the imprisoned god Tharizdun. Cultists refer to the material as Tharizdun's Blood and it is integral to the sanity-twisting effects often found in his temples. If a character uses Millexium a number of times greater than their Wisdom bonus (or 1, whichever is higher) in a single week the power of Tharizdun begins to warp their mind. The character gains an Insanity Score (see Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil) of 0.5, increasing by 0.5 for each additional week that they overuse Millexium. If a cleric gains an Insanity Score equal to half their level, they immediately convert to worship of Tharizdun and gain all benefits as appropriate. A non-cleric with a comparable Score becomes an insane follower of Tharizdun but gains no advantages, only the penalties, although they may begin taking levels as a cleric. Until conversion occurs, the character suffers the Insanity Score penalties to Saves and Skill Checks as appropriate.

A Heal spell removes 1 point of Insanity Score and Greater restoration removes 2. Neither has any effect on a fully convereted character.

Michael Sears armitage@mhcable.com

"No turning back where the end is in sight.

There's a job to be done, a fight to be won."

Furyondy Kings

 De: Richard Diioia <ricdii@Y AHOO.COM>


Objet: [GREYTALK] Furyondy kings

Date : mardi 11 janvier 2000 19:51

I thought some of you may be interested in the lineage of Furyondy kings. Certain dates used are my own creation as canon sources are very vague.

Thrommel I (viceroy Stinvri) p22 of 1983 guide: From 254 (canon) to 282 (non-canon)

Hugh I: 283 (canon) to 310 (non-canon)

Hugh II: 311 (non-canon) to 347 (non-canon)

Belvor I: 348 (non-canon) to 372 (non-canon)

The lost kings: 373 (non-canon) to 469 (canon)

Belvor II (aka Avras III) (many references): 470 (canon) to 512 (canon)

Hugh III (p19 of 1983 guide): 512 (non-canon) to 525 (non-canon). It is known he ruled a few decades after 483 (p19 of 1983 guide)

Thrommel II (p21 of 1983 guide): 526 (canon) to 530 (non-canon)

Belvor III: 531 (non-canon) to 536 (non-canon)

Lord Throsten (regent for Belvor IV): 537 (canon) to 542 (canon)

Belvor IV (many references): 542 (canon) to present

A little explanation here. The lost kings are names of kings that don't appear anywhere. Where I could I used names of later kings and reduced the number after their names (i.e. if there was a Belvor IV there must have been a I, II, III). As for Belvor II/ Avras III this is a confusion from two different canon sources that each say one of these individuals ruled during those dates.

To try to make sense ofthis I propose the following. During the era of the lost kings, the rulership of the land was a political free-for-all. As Belvor I died without a heir, but many bastard sons, the kingship was given to whoever had the most political backing at the time. After almost a decade of this in-fighting one poweful ruler Avras III took over the kingship. To signify an end to the feuding he changed his name to Belvor II and claimed that the lineage started over with him.

Because of the century of feuding though, the powers of the Furyondy kings was diluted and the seven noble families were able to gain a lot of power. It has taken another century for the Furyondy kings to regain a semblance of the power they used to have and even now they do not hold absolute power (as per the Marklands ).

Let me know what you think.

Richard Di Ioia

Against the Giants: Combined Chronology (Draft 1)

 From: Jason Verbitsky [hierax@HOME.COM]

Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 1 :54 AM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: [GREYTALK] Against the Giants: Combined Chronology (Draft 1)

The chronologies from the various versions of the _Against the Giants_ modules and the _Greyhawk Wars_ etc., unsurprisingly, aren't entirely consistent; but, regardless, I'm trying to sort out the mess into a single chronology of the 'Giant Troubles'; here's what I've got so far:

'Go ahead, punk, make my day', tear this chronology apart and let's put in back together, OK? I look forward to your feedback if you aren't too busy pissin' and moan in' about 3rd ed. D&D and the RPGA let's get back to talkin' hawk (about the time clock)!




583 CY FIRESEEK (Winter)

Sakhut giant's cloud islands cross southern Crystalmists.

Shortly thereafter, Goroda began bending the lesser giants to her will to attack the human lands. (AtG:tloG 4)


Winter respite allows armies of luz and Furyondry to reprovision their forces (GW 11, 14)

584 CY FIRESEEK (Winter)

Treaty of Niole Ora to aid Furyondy against luz (GW 15)


Allied armies march forth to Aid Furyondy (GW 15)

Turrosh Mak's Pomarj armies take the field (GW 15)

GOODMONTH (High Summer)

Ket attacks Bissel (GW 20)

Word of Pomarj attack reaches Ulek army (GW 20)

After several months of coordinating the giant alliance and several more months of planning, Goroda's armies invade Geoff, Sterich, and the Yeomanry establishing themselves as the new rulers of Geoff and Sterich but being repelled by the Yeomen. They spent Goodmonth gorging themselves on crops and livestock. This state of wealth and confidence lasted almost two years. (GW 20, AtG:tloG 4-5)

King Skotti of Keoland negotiates with, Querchard, the Earl of Sterich (GDQ 10, 15; GW 20)

Allied armies marched when spring (Readying) came (GW 15)

Black Bubble Appears over lstivin ending negotiations (GDQ 15)

Sterich falls (GW 20)

Sea Prince Nobles Assassinated (GW 23)

Gradsul Blockaded (GW 23)

SB/SP army crosses the Hool Marshes (GW 23-24)

Scarlet Brotherhood calls for peace (GW 24)

HARVESTER (High Summer)

Great Council convened (GW 24)

585 CY READYING (Spring)

Armies from Keoland, Gran March, and the Duchy of Ulek march forth from the Keoish city of Flen to liberate giant-held Sterich. (AtG:tLoG 5; GH:tAB 35)


Day of Great Signing, Greyhawk Wars 'officially' end (GW 24)

586 CY Hochoch liberated by the Knights of the Watch and troops from Gran March {LoG 5)

587 CY PATCHWALL (Autumn)

Slowly the vengeful armies from Keoland, Gran March, and the Duchy of Ulek drove on through Fitela and lstivin, finally removing the last major giant stronghold in Sterich. (AtG:tLoG 5)

588 CY COLDEVEN (Spring)

The march continued westward, ousting the giants one villageat a time, until they finally liberated the last giant-occupied human settlement in Sterich. (GH:tAB 35, AtG:tLoG 5)

590 CY

591 CY Hochoch and parts of the Oytwood are annexed by Gran March as a base to attack the giants in Geoff. Humans and giants are stalemated. {AtG:tLoG 5)


After the Treaty of Niole Dra (spring), then the Kettish invasion is mentioned as dated to Goodmonth, and after this the giants attacked in force, so GDQ1-7 would begin in Goodmonth of 584 CY. In fact, I'd say it would be farily early in the month to still allow time for the SB to act against the SP (and have a fortnight to get ships to the HotSP), Keoland, and call a truce by Harvester. Fortunately, the 'several months' and 'several more' in the new module (AtG:tLoG 4) allow for a certain amount of flexibility [mind you, I haven't finished reading the new 'Giants' module, so please feel free to point out anything I've missed. Heck, I don't care so long as I find out what's right and what's not.]


Gygax, Gary. G1-3: AGAINST THE GIANTS (AtG). 1981.

Cook, David, & Grubb, Jeff. GDQ1-7: QUEEN OF SPIDERS (GDQ), 1986.

Cook, David. GREYHAWK WARS (GW). 1991.


Brown, Anne. PLAYER'S GUIDE TO GREYHAWK (PGtGH). June, 1998.

Moore, Roger. GREYHAWK: THE ADVENTURE BEGINS (GH:tAB). July, 1998.


Well, that's it for tonight, folks, I really gotta get some sleep. Tell me what you think; how can I improve this rough chronology?



Thursday, October 15, 2020

Aerdi Overkings, version 2.0

 From: Taras Guarhoth [guarhoth@VEI.NET]

Sent: Friday, August 06, 1999 3:03 AM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: [GREYTALK] Aerdi Overkings, version 2.0

Ok, it's been a while since I first posted this, but, well, here's version 2, after learing of another potential Overking from some Ravenloft novel (see the footnotes) and a suggestion or two from a certain lurking individual who goes by the name of Gary Holian (who REALLY ought to post).

Comments and suggests (espically about changing some of the names) are welcomed and encouraged.

Aerdi Overkings

1 CY 32 CY Nasran Cradnen [1]

32 CY 66 CY Serrand Cranden

66 CY 75 CY Tenmeris Cranden [2]

75 CY 86 CY Yalranda Cranden [3]

86 CY 95 CY Manshen Rax-Nyrond [4]

95 CY 122 CY Erhart I Rax-Nyrond [5]

122 CY 136 CY Toran I Rax-Nyrond

136 CY 181 CY Erhart II Rax-Nyrond [6]

181 CY 213 CY Jirenen Rax-Nyrond

213 CY 247 CY Corazell Rax-Nyrond

247 CY 286 CY Edron Rax-Nyrond [7]

286 CY 301 CY Toran II Rax-Nyrond

301 CY 305 CY Erhart Ill Rax-Nyrond

305 CY 329 CY Toran Ill Rax-Nyrond

329 CY 355 CY Toran IV Rax-Nyrond

355 CY 396 CY Portillan Rax(-Nyrond) [8]

396 CY 404 CY Galren Rax [9]

404 CY 407 CY Sonnend Rax [1 O]

407 CY 419 CY Montand Rax

419 CY 436 CY Grendemmen Rax

436 CY 437 CY Nalif Rax [11]

437 CY 446 CY lnserruction - No Overking

446 CY 494 CY lvid I Naelex [12]

494 CY 497 CY lvid II Naelex [13]

497 CY 526 CY lvid 111 Naelex

526 CY 556 CY lvid IV Naelex

556 CY present lvid V Naelex [14]


[1] lvid the Undying - First Overking, crowned in 1 CY.

[2] lvid the Undying - Grandson of Nasran, died in 75 CY, and was succeeded by his wife, Yalranda.

[3] lvid the Undying - Only Overqueen. Wife of Tenmeris. Lived to be only 40.

[4] lvid the Undying - Eldest son of Yalranda, took the last name Rax-Nyrond.

[5] Dragon 230 "The Orbs of Dragonkind" - was on the throne in 98 CY.

[6] It stands to reason that since there was an Erhart I, there needs to be an Erhart II somewhere in here.

[7] Apparently, the Ravenloft novel "King of the Dead", which I don't own, seems to indicate that there was someone named Edron as Overking in the year 283 CY.

[8] lvid the Undying - Was on the throne at the time of Nyrond s rebellion.

[9] lvid the Undying - Son and heir to Portillan. A half-wit.

[10] lvid the Undying - Son and heir to Galren. A drunkard.

[11] lvid the Undying - Last Rax Overking, assassinated (presumably) by lvid I.

[12] lvid the Undying - First Naelex Overking. Ruled for 48 years.

[13] lvid the Undying - Ruled for 3 years.

[14] lvid the Undying - Became the Overking in 556 CY. Fifth Naelex Overking.

Rax/Rax-Nyrond - The 83 boxed set clearly states that it was house Rax that sat on the throne. lvid the Undying states that it was Rax-Nyrond. I d chalk this up to a Sargent error, but, it actually serves a purpose. The 83 boxed set also states that three houses ruled prior to House Naelex, so, if we count Rax and Rax-Nyrond as two different houses, and assume that starting with Overking Portillan, the -Nyrond was dropped to distance the remaining scions of House Rax from their rebellious junior branch, we get three houses. Incidentally, that d make Portillan the last Rax-Nyrond Overking, and the first Rax Overking.

Sea Princes history

 From: Creighton Broadhurst [creighton@EASYNET.CO.UK]

Sent: Monday, April 05, 1999 4:57 AM

To; GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: [GREYT ALK] history of the Sea Princes

as Mr Schmit has thrown the gauntlet down and i was the one who "dared" him to opst some material, i post below my (almost) finished history of the Sea Princes. Personally i like to stick to canon as much as possible and so most of the people/events are sourced from various canon publications including Treasures of the Flanaess, UK1, 2 and 3, the Scarlet Brotherhood Accersory, From the Ashes boxed set and the World of Greyhawk boxed set. Note in my campaign the Korinn Archipelago extends southward from Fairwind Isle southward towards the Amedio Jungle effectively cutting off Jerlea Bay.

If anyone is interested in receiving a fnished draft (eventurally) please let me know. Also if I have missed any Sea Princes references please let me know.

And i finish with a question: I know the Sea Princes practise slavery but do you think they have an arena for gladiatorial combat? I have decided so in my campaign and a player has started to build a scale model which we plan to take to conventions. If anyone is interested in my take on this just let me know and i will post what i have. (It is an entertaining way to spend an evening, and for new players to learn the mechanics of game play)


A minor Suel house, the Monui, fleeing the Rain of Colourless Fire through Slerotin s tunnel in -41 ?CY and finding itself at the mercy of larger and better armed groups of Suel and Oeridians sailed to the east and found several large islands. They elected to settle and explore the islands intermingling with the indigenous population. For the next several hundred years history tells nothing about them but they prospered on the islands, learning the arts of seamanship and building many sleek hulled ships. Ancient Keoish records circa 200CY speak of several ships reputed from the region, which traded pearls with them for metals.

Other tribes, including the Hokki, fled southward towards the Amedio Jungle, attacking all that stood in their way. The Hokki were the last tribe to traverse the area and discovering it almost free of opposition elected to settle it.

Circa -200CY many kinglets and fiefs occupied the land that would become to be known as the Hold of the Sea Princes. 2 fledgling kingdoms occupied the southwestern portion of this land. To the west the Grand Dukes of Berghof, progeny of the original flan inhabitants, lived in the fertile and lush hills that tumbled down from the Hellfurnaces. To their east lived their hereditary foes the Barons of Hokar descendants of the Hokki. These 2 groups warred sporadically; the Hokki coveting the lush and fertile hills of Berghof. The only way into Berghof was through Gann Pass. The Suel were stronger, constantly trying to force the Pass and so the Grand Dukes built Adlerberg Keep to deny it to them.

The Hokki constructed, with the aid of a mage with ambitions as dark as his soul, The Gauntlet; a potent magic item designed to destroy the Keep. Discovering this the Grand Dukes built The Sentinel to defend the Keep and gave it to a succession of mages who styled themselves The Guardians. The Sentinel allowed the Grand Dukes to keep the Suel at bay. The 2 nations traded with each other in between sporadically fighting in Gann Pass.

So well had the Monui adapted to conditions on the islands that by 250CY they were becoming overcrowded. Some elected to travel to the south and explore the large archipelago that lay there although only the nearest, Sybarate was colonised the rest being small, storm tossed or unfertile. Accounts from sea captains of the time indicate that they had discovered the Amedio Jungle a hundred years previously but had not landed in strength.

Other more indiscriminate Suel took to raiding the sea traffic that strayed to close to their islands, much of it originating in the Barony of Hokki. (To this day the occupants of the islands tend to be hot blooded and quick tempered).

These privateers began to call themselves the Sea Princes after Aquillius Monui a very successful pirate captain who was descended from the original leaders of House Monui. They began to cross the shallow water separating them from the mainland with increasing frequency and to colonise the coastal areas commencing around 289CY. Monmurg was settled in 294CY, with Port Joli following 5 years later after the discovery of a deep and sheltered bay. With the founding of Port Joli as a base to better strike at Hokki ships traversing Jerlea Bay the Sea Princes precipitated full-scale war. For several years the war ground on neither side gaining an advantage. The Sea Barons interdiction of Hokki trade vessels began to tell and in the final campaign (306CY) the Sea Princes captured Hokar.

Inspired by tales of verdant grassland beyond the mountains the Sea Princes launched several assaults on Adlerberg Keep (310-330CY), which were as successful as the Hokki assaults before them. Deeming the land of Berghof no threat to their burgeoning power the Sea Princes made peace with them and traded food for metals and other essentials.

While Keoish eyes were fixed on the north (350CY 360CY, the Short War) the Sea Princes became emboldened by their lack of opposition and began to raid the coast from Gradsul to Grygax. Keoish reverses on land and the loss of many of their client states forced a change in position of their foreign policy so much that by the mid 400sCY the Sea Princes were viewed as Keolands greatest threat. Keoland therefore began to fortify its southern borders and to rebuild its navy.

In 382CY the 4th Prince of Monmurg, Derik Drakkonheart, came to the throne. He was a mage of surpassing power who became a fighter so that he could better lead his people in battle. He worshipped Kelanen, Prince of Swords and became the leader of the church. It was rumoured that because of the level of perfection he achieved as a warrior he actually became the Avatar of Kelanen. His eldest son Peranius was the first of the family line to not be intellectually gifted and Derik became worried as to who would lead his people after he was gone.

To be assured that his son would have a wise advisor he created the Sword of the Dragon. This mammoth task took him a year and when he returned he was a shadow of his former self. He died 2 years later but the sword survived him and helped his son to rule wisely.

By 446CY the Sea Princes were not only ravaging the coast from Gradsul to Gryrax and beyond but they were also raiding lands such as the Pomarj (under the rule of the Principality of Ulek) and distant Scant. Their ships also probed as far east as the Tilva Strait.

In 453CY the Keoish fleet, augmented by a squadron of Ulek warships met the Sea Princes in battle north of Jetsom Island. The battle was a draw; the Sea Princes inflicted heavy casualties on the Keoish ships but where forced to retreat in the face of superior Keoish morale and tactics. Minor skirmishes and actions followed but by 470CY it became evident to the wiser captains that the Keolanders would never again become so lax in their defence of the sea-lanes. They therefore appointed trusted lieutenants to command their ships and retired to their mainland estates. These lieutenants strove against the Keoish for several decades and minor actions were common in the western Azure Sea.

The descendants of Derik Drakkonheart became more reckless after the Battle of Jetsom Island as they tried to extend their domain westward. The 7th Prince of Monmurg, Marcus, lost the Sword of the Dragon and was slain during the Battle of Lost Hope in 478CY while trying to subjugate the last few independent kingdoms in the area who marked their eastern borders by the Hool River.

In 493CY Berghof joined the Sea Princes domain peacefully.

By 520CY the last of the kinglets abutting the Hellfurnaces had been absorbed into the Hold. The estates of the Holds nobles now reached the Hellfurnaces. The estates had grown so vast however that there was a shortage of workers to till them and so the nobles cast about for another source of labour. The first expeditions landed on the Amedio coast around 530CY having explored the Olman Islands the year before. They immediately started to explore the vast jungles, enslaving all the natives they came across and killing any that resisted. Many were sent to the Hold to work on the plantations or in the few mines in the Kamph Mountains. Many died from disease, malnutrition and the brutalities of their overseers. Still more were kept in their native lands clearing vegetation, picking fruit or working in the mines the Sea Prine.es set up in the Hellfurnaces to the west. Several forts were established on the coast. Some chiefs organised attacks against the invaders but these were in the main ineffective, the superior defences and battle magic of the Holders being more than a match for native courage. Some tribes took advantage of the situation catching and selling their enemies to the Sea Princes for metal weapons, cheap jewellery and alcohol.

By 546CY the Holders controlled the peninsula known as the Hook and all the land bounded by the River Bodal to the west and the Havekijhu River to the south. They also controlled the coast to the west of this all the way to the Hellfurnaces and raided further south into the Densac Ocean. They even came into occasional (violent) conflict with the inhabitants of the Pirate Isles.

In 583CY Korenth Zan sent an ultimatum to the rulers of the Hold stating simply Submit to the Scarlet Brotherhood or be destroyed. The nobles refused and were presented with a list of minor nobles of the realm. Before the next sunrise 27 of the 30 named on what was to become known as the Death List were dead, killed by red-robed assassins. Of the 3 survivors 2 were sorely wounded, having been saved only by the quick action of their bodyguards.

In 584CY the Scarlet Brotherhood arrived in the Amedio Jungle and immediately imprisoned most of the slavers, throwing them into the same holds as their human prey. Almost all perished. The Brqtherhood began to recruit among the Suel natives, promising them weapons, a place in the armies of the Brotherhood and, most importantly, freedom. Thousands accepted this offer and were transported to the Hold.

Attacks launched from the Hold through the Hool Marshes and into Keoland using native troops initially met with some success but their progress was halted by the elves of the Dreadwood. Despite reinforcements sent by Hammandaturian the elves held the savages in the woods. Sensing that he would soon over-reach himself the Father of Obedience ordered a halt to these actions. In the Hold Brotherhood agents began to suppress the Holders with a series of new laws. New temples were raised in all the major population centres to the deities of the Brotherhood and native troops were used to maintain order.

Throughout the following years the slaving operations the jungles to the south continued with many new troops being accepted from among the racially acceptable individuals captured. This increased military might allowed the Brotherhood to hold its new border against a series of determined Keoish probes.

In the summer of 589CY several minor Brotherhood agents discovered the grim news that the Father of Obedience had allowed the loss of ldee and Onnwal. They sent the native troops under their command into the street of the capital, Monmurg, to take control of the city. Loyalists slew or captured the leaders of the attempted coup by the end of the day but by then the savages were out of control, looting, burning and fighting throughout the city. Inspired by this slaves rose up against their masters and within a fortnight fighting was widespread across the whole country. Taking advantage of the sudden lack of opposition on its southern border Keoland forced a passage through the Hool Marshes and captured the city of Westkeep in 590CY. Keoland s navy also keeps up the pressure on the Holds seaboard, interdicting as much traffic as possible from the east as all ships docking in the Hold were considered to be the Brotherhood s.

At the outset of 591 CY vicious fighting raged across the Hold. The Brotherhood controls the cities of Monmurg and Port Joli and the major islands through the use of tyrgs, mages and their savage armies. The Olman led by their priests, dominate the west of the Hold where they were formally employ tending the various plantations and farms found there. The central portion of the land is ruled by an alliance of commoners, middle class folk and freed slaves led by surviving minor nobles.

Taking Westkeep was the easy part of the operation as King Kimbertos discovered early in 591 CY. The city is almost surrounded by swamps teeming with disease and hostile natives. Supplying his troops is becoming extremely difficult but Skotti refuses to retreat, believing he can still force the Brotherhood from the Hold through land campaigns. Keoland s elite naval squadrons also continue to be a thorn in the Brotherhood s side.

Odd Alley

 From: Erik Larson [pinback@XSITE.NET]

Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 7:37 PM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Need some help

I'll give it a try. From the opening of "The Weird Occurrence in Odd Alley:"

"Odd Alley, an area within Greyhawk's Old City, was so difficult to locate that most citizens fo the metropolis were unaware of its existence ... "

(Night Arrant, p. 50)

"It had taken [Gord and Chert] hours of searching, walking through the twists and turns of the mazelike lanes and alleys of Old City ...

"They probably would never have located the area save for the fact that they happened to end up in just the right location as the last rays of the setting sun illuminated the close and the passage leading from it."

I reckon you could place it wherever you want, as long as its hard to find and in Old City. If you already have some of the places below detailed it would be somewhere in amongst them, with no apparent way in. Might as well get the party good and lost, then spring it on 'em. I reckon that would be just as faithful to Gary's prose as anything. ;)

Some places you may like to use once the party finds themselves there:

" ... There is the junk store run by that miserly half-elf Scriggin, the used clothing shop, Freedle's Librarium, the potter's booth, the Sunken Grotto Tavern, the money changer's stall, Green Wulfurt's apothecary, the crazy limner's place, Zreed's Antiquary ... " (Night Arrant, p. 56).

Empire of Keoland Part 2 of 5 or 6

 From: issak@stockup.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 12:18 PM

To: 'MPGN'

Subject: [GREYHAWK] Empire of Keoland Part 2 of 5 or 6

Empire of Keoland




Email- lssak@stockup.com

AOL- Keoland@aol.com

Wayfarers Guide to the Empire of Keoland

City and Territory Officials of the Empire of Keoland

Emperor: Adon E' Kieron

Northeastern Plains Territory:

Northeastern Plains Territory: Secretary of State Broderick A' Nand

Niole Dra: Prime Minister Perlandra D' Ocerus (f)

Draco Dra: Privy Counselor Claransa S' Jerianser (f)

Hack's Hamlet: Counselor Karl K' luss

Tombstone: Mayor Rathyka

White Crown: Mayor in Transit Lt. Jamie Front of the GreenMasks

Teckla Republic:

Teckla Republic: Duke Rahal J' Hagelen

Dragaera City and Castle Uttik: Duke Rahal J' Hagelen

Margom: Assemblyman Kol-Nak the Seer (1/2 Hill Giant)

Merchang: Mayor Julie G' Gunar

Pepperfield: Council of Three (members have been unnamed to outsiders)

People's Palace: People's Governor John E' Kaneen

Erythane: Lord Krogada Erythane

Deppa's Fang: Mayor Kalim D' Eneba

Nenko: Prime Minister Duriath (1/2 elf)

D' Keira Barony:

D' Keira Barony: Baron Cornam Blackstaff (a dwarf from Gyrax) and Baron Fritz e' Gylen of Rossland

Gradsul: nobody has become official since the sacking of the city by the Sea Princes

Kayrupt: Governess Barracius D' Eitica (f)

Bluffs Keep: Father Korkiktodeua (Priest of Pholtus)

Eastman's March-Watch: Watch Lord High Marquis Gerdek Ubul Krugel

AgaDan's Plains Territory:

AgaDans Plains Territory: Secretary of State Devon G' Ylahen

AgaDan Castle: Prime Minister Lorance M' Jozee

Rossland: Lord Marquis Dromedon K' Naital

Pinewood Hold: from 3 Goodmonth until 7 Harvester CY 585 the city lies in ruins and Mayor Elesha D' Aduliuia is found dead among ruble. Justin A'Vakor assumes Mayorship

Four Crossings: Golden Griffins from AgaDan Castle declare Martial Law

llitsa- Privy Counselor Jade A' Analan

Castle City State of San-Giti:

Castle City State of San-Giti: prior to 11 Harvester CY 585: Duke Arylea D'Akinz

Koria County:

Koria County and Vale Na: prior to 11 Harvester CY 585: Headmaster Aiklin D'Takibro the Grand Duke of Koria County and the School of Vale Na

Dukedom of E' Kieron:

Previously the Castle City State of San-Giti and Koria County, now combined as one.

Dukedom of E' Kieron: Duke Galeann E' Kieron

San-Giti: in ruins

Vale Na: rebuilding, Headmaster Erik Zeno E' Scala

Northwestern Plains Territory:

Northwestern Plains Territory: Secretary of State Torine Tristcol

Castle Beam: Count Anaxibus E' Timalta is dead

Dosandar: Counselor Jibannano is dead

Drimin: Virayana of Pholtus is dead

County of Sorvia:

County of Sorvia: Prior to 15 Planting CY 585: Count N' Var UI' Nevi-Sorvia;

After 15 Planting CY 585: Count Faenor S' Ondo-Sorvia (1/2 elf from Celene)

Aklandria: Prior to 15 Planting CY 585: Count N' Var UI' Nevi-Sorvia; After 15 Planting CY 585: Count Faenor S' Ondo-Sorvia (1/2 elf from Celene)

lchvas: Governor Siaron Lagrius (f)

Twin Oaks: Prime Minister Gylaren the Elder (elf)

North Keep Bridge: prior to 19 Harvester CY 585: Lord Marquis Quirkliun D'

Paka; After 19 Harvester CY 585: Lord Cecil Shadowborn

Sty: Governor Stuart Bandyleg of Akwazishun, Ink. (Hairfoot)

Millwood: Assemblyman Jearvosa

Silverdale: Lady Kelly Adrikillia the Druidess Duchess

Teinerdal: Mayor Kendech E' Lokengal

Benglowa: Lord Admiral Eusebius (1/2 sea elf)

Chalora: Port Master Karyn D' Krinagar

Dar-Ina: official Mariella D' Qeodar (f)

Brain: Marshal Thrankell the Firestorm Mage

Duchy of Pohotha:

Duchy of Pohotha: Duke Akesoli E' Tanarobi

Donsar: Duke Akesoli E' Tanarobi

Sandstone: Speaker Torenal D' Nurokidu (Stout)

Sandy Home County: ·

Captured Territory of the Imperial Order. All officials listed were the leaders of the area. Now it is unknown.

Sandy Home County: Count Flynn E' Tekalon

Flen: Chieftain Bifrik Ill (Dwarf)

Granite Wall Prison: Captain D' Yas E' Aasterk (Dwarf)

Granite Wall Village: Speaker Alalron E' Narzek

Ureeka: Miner Giaimo K' Hennaag (Dwarf)

Cryllor: Chieftain Dewarf Stoneshaper (Dwarf)

Lenador: Speaker Corwyn D' Mauntea

More Falcon's Bazaar [Dragon Annual #3] disclaimers

From: Noel Graham [vision.at.work@JUNO.COM]

Sent: Sunday, November 29, 199811:17 AM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: [GREYTALK] More Bazaar disclaimers

Haile and Fair Greetings All,

After a brief discussion with Cariel Mansharn yesterday evening, there seems to be a few more items in need of clarification from the Pale Falcon Traders. The Falcons apologize for any inconvenience and trust all wares to date have performed as expected.

Soft Winter and Sweet Flowers,


Another Falcon Errata

>About specific items, I feel the damage for the angon (2-20 vs. larger than man-sized if serrated) is excessive.

Of course, only the forked-blade angon can do double damage --and that's double the damage of a "standard" angon (2d6/2d8+2). Standard damage is 1d6/1d8+1 (see DRAGON Ann3, p. 97).

>Do I understand the Dwarven Stone Scroll right? Is the information on the dowel itself, with the rings serving as a combination lock to get it out?


->DWARVEN STONE SCROLL - These are cool, but as they are they are properly MAGICAL ITEMS; Sorry, I just don't buy the 'no magic short of a wish can reassemble a shattered scroll' unless it is a magical item. I'll have both magical and non-magical versions of these scrolls.

No. The info is on the discs, both along its edges and both faces. The dowel is inserted through a hole in each disc. The dowel is flanged and the holes are not necessarily in the center. If the discs are not properly aligned, when the dowel is removed, it shatters the discs.

The holes aren't necessarily very large, since the dwurfolk stress and prepare the discs to be shattered under these circumstances. Also, what it's supposed to say is that the regular ones just shatter, while the ones with miniature flame strikes can't be reassembled without a wish. Those versions *are* magical.

>ANGON - I don't see this as a barbarian weapon, but otherwise it is OK.

The spear is a very barbarian weapon, of course. Aside from that, it was the Ratikans who actually crafted the angon, which was captured and reporduced by the Frost and other barbarians. When Ratik and the Frutzii joined forces, the angon became that much more common.

By doing it this way, the angon can be "newly" introduced into a Thillonrian campaign. Otherwise, they're combat trophies. The folk of the former-Aerdi coast only know them as barbarian weapons, since they have little conflict/contact with Ratikans by comparison. Hence, how they became so associated, along with those barabarians who travailed the Corusks-Griffs to trade in the Bandit Lands.

Falcon's Bazaar (Dragon Annual #3) Errata

 From: Noel Graham [vision.at.work@JUNO.COM]

Sent: Saturday, November 14, 1998 8:20 PM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: [GREYTALK] Falcon's Bazaar Errata

Falcon's Bazaar Errata

Angon ~ the text should have read, "Although numerous incarnations have appeared since then, like the serrated and fork-bladed angons, two forms have become commonplace." The two standard forms are described in the following text: the dropped-V and trefoil-bladed versions.

As well the accompanying illustration depicts a strange weapon, indeed. The trefoil angon of Ratik has three blades radiating from what would otherwise be a central spike, rather than the jutting blades shown (though this might be yet another variant which has appeared over the decades).

Dagger Sash ~ As a hidden weapon baldric, the dagger "sash" is not actually worn about the waist at all, though a more durable weapon harness as illustrated (seep. 97) might be crafted for the same price.

Doublebow ~ a too-late revision to this item would have revised the manner in which it is strung. It should be strung using two separate, but normal casting strings. Should one break, the other remains completely useable.

Perhaps those strung according to the printed description are (imperfect) apprentice models or ones restrung in a make-shift manner (from emergency repair), one string having previously broken near the bow. This condition would impart an additional -1 to hit penalty.

Fineplate ~ Note the corrected sentence, "Among the best examples of this fineplate can be found in Verbobonc's Lord's District at the exclusive Wayfarers Hostel. Their emerald plates are carved in relief along the edges with the viscounty's COM PONY and chased with gold filigree."

Most of you will be aware than "company" is a heraldic device also known as "bordering". The Viscount's "company" would be something altogether different (I'd expect).

Gnomish Neckpurse ~ Again, the illustration is somewhat misleading. The neckpurse appears to be a fillet or headband with sufficient length to bind long hair behind the head. The small pouch described depends from this strapping beneath the bulk of the hair (and thus, gone largely unnoticed).

Gorgetal ~ While the illustration does, indeed, depict a gorgetal in its most obvious sense (and well-known knights might actually display these in common dress), the gorgetal is most often hidden from casual observation. It's considered a last-ditch defense against attacks to the neck/throat in social settings where overt wearing of armor might offend the host (indicating one has no trust in the host' guards or ability to protect guest, even as this is precisely the reason for wearing one). Keep this one in mind when those SB assassins return to the game!

Rhizian Shield Harness ~ Just a little edited here. "The northlander barbarians have developed a fighting style that allows battle use of a shield while both hands remain free*!.... The dishonorable will likewise think twice before attacking the user from behind a boon by any measure!

"*Note: The _derkest'ai_ or "dragon shield" style is a development of Kord's faithful and is taught by their whim alone. 1uffice it to say, while full, unrestricted movement is required, opponents are faced with a whirlwind assault of screaming shield-punches and flashing steel!"

Talwuc ~ A "rain tabard" rarely extends below the knees in length with little actual sleeves (though excess shoulder material will cover some portion of the upper arm). The talwuc is intended as a less-expensive, easily altered variation on the cote (certainly less than a robe) and would therefor be found amongst the rank and file of Yeomen soldiery. Any hood worn with one will be a separate item of clothing, removable after a downpour to allow ventilation and improve appearance.

Walking Stick ~ Prices given throughout the description are considered the base available in GH City. The simplest storage hollow are available from 3gp, while one whose latch mechanism is skillfully concealed by decorative carvings may cost many times more.

As might be obvious, a "kindler" pouch contains flint, steel, and "fat lighter" (sappy slivers of wood wrapped in waxed cloth, which lend themselves readily to starting fires) or "tar-tears" (small crystals of hardened tar).

Let's talk about the Free City of Greyhawk

From: Chris Jarvis (Kindred Communications) [v-cjarv@MICROSOFT.COM]

Sent: Monday, September 21, 1998 7:37 PM


Subject: [GREYTALK] Let's talk about the Free City of Greyhawk

My first question, why is the Free City where it is? Generally cities exist for a reason, what is it that caused the current site of the Free City of Greyhawk to be the place where such a city arose?

Here is my take on this question:

I would hazard that the northern shores of the Nyr Dyv have never been the most hospitable region to traverse. Even before the rise of luz, the inhabitants of this region probably did their level best to discourage commerce. The presence of Rift Canyon and whatever nasties it harbors may have contributed to this as well. And who is to say that in earlier time the Rovers didn't extent their range into the warm southlands? The Nyr Dyv itself is a chancy beast. Loathsome monsters inhabit its murky deeps. The Rhenee bargefolk are capricious and troublesome (to your average merchant). Thus having a reliable land route from the established Kingdoms (or perhaps even tribes) in the east (the Aerdy and Nyrondese) to the subject tribes/lands of the west (the Ferrand and Velondi) is of paramount importance.

The Selintan River serves as one of the primary ports of egress for the waters of the Nyr Dyv, which itself serves as the holding basin of the rivers draining from the Yatils, Clatspurs, the plateau of Ket, parts of the Barrier Peaks, the northern Lortmils, Lake Quag, Whyestil Lake, all of the northlands not dumping into the Icy Sea, the western Griff Mountains, and portions of the western Rakers. This is alot of water. (Is it any wonder that the Lake of Unknown Depths has both an eastern and western passage to the sea?) From Midbay the waters of the Nyr Dyv carve an awesome and perilous gorge probably dropping several hundred feet in elevation. (I imagine the waterlevel of the lake is quite a bit higher than the plain of Greyhawk. How much higher I wonder?) The energy of the river diminishes as it flows out onto the plain of Greyhawk. Also at this point the river encounters several chunks of the underlying resistant strata that makes up the Cairn Hills, dumps some of its effluvia! load and lazily winds its way to the sea. Beyond this point the river broadens and the banks become marshy, fording the river is possible, but bridges are really not an option. But at this point (that would be the site of Greyhawk) it is possible to bridge the river. [I know this is a severely heretical stand--but bear with me.]

So we build a bridge. We have more than enough building material to go around, as the Cairn Hills are right nearby. The resistant (okay hypothetical} chunks of strata make great anchor points for our bridge, and so hopefully we won't have to worry about it getting washed away. The Nyr Dyv serves as a great coffer damn as well. The site also turns out to be a good spot from which to launch boats down the river. From this spot we can travel overland eastward: either past Maure Castle or along the southern shore of the Nyr Dyv. And we can travel by road through the Gnarley to Dyvers (first capital of the Viceroy of Ferrand).

Okay, we have a bridge some roads and a port for river traffic. We have lots of rocks and wood nearby. The Selintan plain makes for good farmland. So we build a town, or maybe we just build a trading post first to traffic with the local inhabitants and the weird elves of the Gnarley. It is successful and a town springs up. Not everyone nearby is friendly so we establish fortifications on both sides of our bridge [Yes, another heresy, I propose that the Selintan is not so wide as to prevent building on both sides!]. And so it goes. The end result is something that more closely resembles Paris than anything else.

Well my vision of Greyhawk may be a trifle skewed and non-canon, but it sort of makes sense. If you take the Paris analogy a bit further you have a lot of stuff to draw upon. Drop a couple big cathedrals on the center river isles. Add a complex sewer system. Through in some gargoyles and you are set.

Comments, suggestions, criticism.


Chris Jarvis


The GREYtalk Discussion List LISTADMIN: owner-greytalk@mitvma.mit.edu


Questions? Ask the ADMIN (or look for the new archival address soon.)

Try the GT FAQ: http://members.aol.com/SavantSage/greytalk/greyfaq.txt


To unsubscribe, send "SIGNOFF GREYTALK" to listserv@mitvma.mit.edu

or, to toggle the digest mode send "SET GREYTALK DIGEST (or NODIGEST)"

For complete LISTSERV commands, send "INFO REFCARD" to the listserver.


Wednesday, October 14, 2020

Demoness Estes

From: Roland Lamoureux <roland@CYBERBEACH.NET>

To: "GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu"

Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 12:51 AM

Subject: [GREYTALK] The Demoness Estes

Oh yes could not forget to forward this well known Demoness of Greyhawk as well, enjoy ....

>Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:33:39 -0400

> To: planescape@MPGN.COM, planescape@MPGN.COM

>From: Roland Lamoureux <roland@cyberbeach.net>

>Subject: Re: [PLANESCAPE] - another new Abyssal Lord

>In-Reply-To: <>


> Here you Go folks another new, evil Tanar'ri (Demoness) Lord


>ESTES " the vile rose of the Abyss"




>Organization: Ruler of "Aenagade realm of the Abyss"

>Activity Cycle:Any





>Armor Class:-7

>Movement: 12

>Hit Dice:58 HP:356


># of Att: 2

>Special Att:Spells / summon Tanar'ri(demons)

>Special Def:lmmunities of Tanar'ri

>Magic Resistance:73%

>Size: 12' tall

>Morale: Fearless(19)

> XP Value: 86 000

>att Dam:see below

>spec Def:see below


> Estes ressembles a Horrid 12' tall mass of Bones and Flesh, covered in Black tendrils oozing in Black fluids that reek of rotten fish. Hence the title "vile rose of the Abyss" She is extremely old, having seen many of the anciant Powers when they were but young powers. She at one time had discovered a mystical well deep within the reaches of Pandomonium.


>This mystical well was a lost relic of the upper planes, hidden away by the Dark forces of Pre-creation whom had stolen it during the nether war of the anciant days. This well was the key to the stability of a host of prime worlds, its very waters were the stream of consciousness of the life therein. Realising the chance of corruption Estes absorbed this piece of Pandomonium holding the mystical well to her Abyssal realm Aenagade. Once within her grasp she slowly started to pollute the waters of the well with her vile nature.


> Within Decades the primes conected to the well began to degenerate from destrucion brought on by the Unstability of the well. For every 1000 sentient beings destroyed by her corruption a vile rose of horrid stench would bloom in Aenagade. Her Abyssal realm soom came into full bloom in the coming decades, until the mystical well of the upper planes she was corrupting had no longer any water left. At that moment all of the primes connected to the mystical well faded into oblivion.

> However the Upper Powers had felt this Great erasure of life, and traced the vampiric Tanar'ri Estes whom had been the vile creature whom had drained the life they created so long ago. Outraged the upper Powers united and banished the Abyssal Lord Estes to Carceri Forevermore. Or so they thought, because Beea'ytch has recently freed her with the help of the Abyssal lord Queen Lilith. When she was relased however she was outraged that her personal tomes were stolen by the Abyssal "Demon" Lord Pelor her former lover.


> Combat:


> When Estes must fight she merely lets her vile nature do most of the dammage. Because those whom simply look upon her vile form , must save vs death magic or suffer permenant brain dammage -1d4 int and -1d4 wis per turn, unless a save is made at which point only -1 int and wis is temporarily lost for 6 rnds. Her other ill effect comes from her stench that acts like a stinking cloud but imposes a -4 penalty to save, and has double effects. Otherwise she must fight using a swirling attack of her tendril doing 1d12+6 dammage. She can also attempt to gate in at 65% (1d6 DrudgeFiends) or 45% (1d4 Murkfiends) three times per day.


> Followers and Ressources:

> She is the uncontested Planar Ruler of Aenagade a Abyssal realm, that is still covered in fast fields of horrid stinking roses in full bloom . However she had to rout out some minor forces whom had taken pieces of her realm as their own. She had easily taken back her realm with the help of Beea'ytch and the power of The Tanar'ri Lord Queen Lilith. In return she must help Beea'tch in her scheeme to destroy Oerth and help Queen Lilith find the Abyssal Lord Pelor. Her symbol is that of a disgusting mockery of a Rose in full bloom. She is the left handed aid to the Tanar'ri Lord Queen Lilith and as such is in charge of the exterior armies of the Abyssal Empire of Queen Lilith.


>Plots and Goals:

>Estes plans on recovering the Tomes of Estes that The Demon Lord Pelor has stolen from her. She has learned that the Abyssal Lord Pelor is using the contents of the tomes as part of his religeous dogma for Oerth for his church of Pelor there. Outraged at her former lover the Abyssal Lord Pelor she has been sending many forces across the planes to try and locate his hidden realm within the Gray Waste. She is also very busy re-building her realm to her design, and together with Queen Lilith have begun the invasion plans for the realms of Grazz'zt and Panzuriel.She is alas always on edge worried the upper powers of the planes will seek her out once again for imprisonement, thus she relies heavily upon the strength of the Abyssal Empire of the Tanar'ri Queen Lilith.


>Well this is my take on the Abyssal Lady Estes "the vile rose of the Abyss"


> "Proxy Scion Herald of the Demon Lord Pelor"


>soon to come: a new Fiend race of the Gray waste "The Torezudo Fiends"




The GREYtalk Discussion List LISTADMIN: owner-greytalk@mitvma.mit.edu


Questions? Ask the ADMIN (or look for the new archival address soon.)

Try the GT FAQ: http://members.aol.com/SavantSage/greytalk/greyfaq.txt


To unsubscribe, send "SIGNOFF GREYTALK" to listserv@mitvma.mit.edu

or, to toggle the digest mode send "SET GREYTALK DIGEST (or NODIGEST)"

For complete LISTSERV commands, send "INFO REFCARD" to the listserver.