Placing GH legends in chronology

 From: Mark Barazzuol [markb@intergate.bc.ca]

Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 11 :36 AM

To: 'greyhawk@MPGN.COM'

Subject: RE: [GREYHAWK] - Placing GH legends in chronology

I am attempting to place several of the historical and legendary figures of Oerth in a chronological order to help determine the possible influence and interaction between them.

I am looking for info on the powerful Mages, Liches and King-Priests ofhistory such as:

Tuerny, Lum, Acerak, Vecna, Tsojcanth, Cuthbert, and any others that come to mind.

Most of the time, all the books give you is "A long time back," or many centuries ago ..

Tuerny had influence over part of the great kingdom if I remember correctly, he may have controlled all of it at one time with his demonic servants. The artifact later turned on it's creator, and well, let's just say the rest is what you see of Tuerny now .. Given that time frame, it would put him in Early Great Kingdom history. Depending on the way you look at it possibly even before the formation of the great kingdom. (If you believe there was civilized life there before ..

Baron Lum was a noble under the rule of one of the Kings of Aerdy. He had - quite a rivalry going between himself and Leuk-o another who discovered one of those technological artifacts. He is definitly one of those early great kingdom personages too. No firm dates given.

Acerak is easily the most ancient of those you listed there. With the POSSIBLE exeception of Tsojcanth, depending on how you look at his time period. We know Acerak's empire was around the Sunndi area, and it existed before that place turned into a swamp. Given that there is no record of it with even early Great Kingdom history I would place them at least 500 years before the migration. Probally even 1000. Also given that Acerack had to be extremely old at that time. I would say the kingdom itself would have had to have lasted at very least 1000 years. (It does take a while for a lich to turn to dust..)

There is so much conflicting stuff on Vecna I can't really tell you .. Probally 1000+ years ago his empire was around. I wouldn't make it too much more than that.. I also don't even know where his empire was supposed to be. Early TSR docs seem to point to the West, somewhere in either the Suel or Oerdian empires. The most current docs point to around the Nyr Dyv area. Go figure ..

To find out how Tsojcanth was you just have to figure, when was the last time Tharizdun was active on Oerth? Given what horrors this guy is responsible for, I'd say he predates any of the history books for any races here. I'd put him 10,000 years back... He seems to be in a time period all to himself.

Cuthbert? No one has even speculated that before.. How old is Celestian? Or Farlanghn? Who knows? It's probally got to take a while to get up to that status. Realistically, I don't see any of the gods with "Medevil" styles to them originating on Oerth at all. Back when they were actually mortal (if they ever were .. ) the time period wouldn't have reached a Medevil point in Oerth culture.. No, probally like Mayheine they migrated. Maybe it wasn't from too far though .. Remember, there's lots of life on some of the other planets in the Oerth solar system. Some like Kule which have had long dead civilizations.. Who knows?

Re: Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors

RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:29 AM
From: "Creighton Broadhurst" Add sender to Contacts
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Hey Otto,

Sorry I got the wrong end of the stick. The Sinking Isle would be a cool link in to the Tomb of Horrors, but I don't think any published module has ever dealt with the area. I think a lot of adventure tie-in ideas depend on how old you decide the tomb is. I don't have my files here, but I don't recall any definitive date for the tomb's construction. Acererak could definitely have gained lost/forbidden knowledge from the Soul Gem and the Ghost Tower and by exploring many of the locations in the Bright Desert (I'm thinking of Darkbridge Temple and the Necropolis of Unnagh [sp] in
particular).

In regard to obtaining LG materials, there is no "legal" way left to do so. WoTC owns all the rights to all core adventures (and all other adventures and materials they paid for) and at this time I doubt they have any interest in releasing them.

Creighton Broadhurst
Check out my blog at Raging Swan
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."


-----Original Message-----
From: Otto Zequeira [mailto:ozequeira@yahoo.com]
Sent: 27 July 2009 14:48
To: greytalk@canonfire.com; Creighton Broadhurst
Cc: oteta@aol.com
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors


Hi Gents. Thanks for the replies.

Good idea, Greg, as to the Soul Gem being an inspiration for Acererak.

Creighton, to clarify, as I showed with the list below, I want to keep the Tomb in its original location, but simulate a search for the Tomb with some standalone adventures. You mentioned LG materials. I remember that there was a Tzunk-related adventure for LG. How may one obtain that?

Any other thoughts for stand-alone adventures in the areas below? Thanks again for the ideas.

Otto Z.

Iuz, highest hill: ?
>
> Island in the Nyr Dyv: Tzunk (adventure
> available?)
>
> Bright Desert: Rary the Traitor (especially
> Sulm), Ghost Tower (Soul
> Gem with
> soul-stealing power like Acererak)
>
> Duchy of Geoff: Expedition to the Barrier
> Peaks
>
> Vast Swamp:
> Tomb
>
> Island beyond Sea Barons: Turucambi or the
> Sinking Isle (Greyhawk Adventures)
>
--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Creighton Broadhurst wrote:

> From: Creighton Broadhurst
> Subject: RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
> To: greytalk@canonfire.com
> Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 6:51 AM
>
> RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of
> Horrors
>
> Hey all,
>
> It depends how old you want the tomb to
> be. I'm not sure how you would tie it into
> Expedition to the Barrier Peaks but placing it in the Bright
> Desert or an island beyond the Sea Barons would be
> funky. In the Bright Desert, it could tie into
> ancient Sulm dark practises or on the island
> beyond the Sea Barons it would probably be an old Flan
> site. In either event the tomb would probably be
> around 1500 - 2000 years old. If you go with the Tzunk idea
> the tomb would be really old IMO (although I don't have
> access to all my file to give an exact
> approximate date ;-( )
>
> With the Tzunk and Sea Barons idea there is
> a dearth of publishing material. If you
> shoot for the Bright Desert, DUNGEON published
> a couple of articles on the area and the D&D web site
> did have some additional articles. LG also produced a core
> module set around the Tomb (but this assumes it is
> in its "correct"
> location.
>
> Creighton Broadhurst
> Check out my blog at Raging Swan
> "You miss 100% of the shots you > don't take."
>
>
> -----Original
> Message-----
>
> From: Otto Zequeira [mailto:ozequeira@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 26 July 2009 17:31
> To: greytalk@canonfire.com; Otto Zequeira
> Subject: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
>
> Dear all:
>
> How are you? Hope you are doing
> well. My players have decided to go after what will
> turn out to be the Tomb of Horrors, though they don't
> know it yet.
>
> The original adventure listed alternative
> locations for the tomb. I thought it might be a good
> opportunity to tie in some adventures that they have not
> enjoyed yet.
>
> Any suggestions for the locations below,
> especially with good, published material, would be greatly
> appreciated. Thanks ahead of time.
>
> Otto Z.
>
> Iuz, highest hill: ?
>
> Island in the Nyr Dyv: Tzunk (adventure
> available?)
>
> Bright Desert: Rary the Traitor (especially
> Sulm), Ghost Tower (Soul
> Gem with
> soul-stealing power like Acererak)
>
> Duchy of Geoff: Expedition to the Barrier
> Peaks
>
> Vast Swamp:
> Tomb
>
> Island beyond Sea Barons: Turucambi or the
> Sinking Isle (Greyhawk Adventures)

Re: Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors

Re: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
Tuesday, August 4, 2009 7:23 AM
From: "Otto Zequeira"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com, "Otto Zequeira"

Thanks for all the suggestions. Lots of food for thought. Reread my copy of "Vecna: Hand of the Revenant", Thor. Connections between Acererak and Vecna should be explored. Need to follow up on your suggestions for Darkbridge Temple and the Necropolis of Unnagh [sp], Creighton. Nice write-up, Scott.

I am considering a combination of legend lore and commune spells to lay down the clues for the search for the Tomb. Commune spells are interesting in that the contacted entity can color responses.

Here is the link again at Canonfire for some of the suggestions that were mentioned there:

http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3792

Mind if I post some of the recent suggestions there for cross-fertilization?

Otto
Dirt from Skull City and dust of demi-lich make great cross-fertilization.

--- On Tue, 7/28/09, Scott wrote:

> From: Scott
> Subject: [greytalk] RE: Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
> To: greytalk@canonfire.com
> Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 4:55 PM
>
> Hi all,
>
> In case this helps, here's what I wrote about Acererak for
> my South Province campaign:
>
> It is common knowledge that "Acererak the Devourer" is a
> name passed down in legend. A name to be feared and
> spoken in the strongest curses.
>
> It is uncommon knowledge that Acererak was once a terrible
> archmage who ruled a kingdom where the County of Sunndi
> stands today. It is rumored that his tomb still
> exists.
>
> It is rare knowledge that Acererak ruled an empire nearly
> 1,000 years ago. He warred with Queen Ehlissa, seeking
> to expand his domain. He was vassal to Orcus, the
> demon lord, and was rewarded for his efforts with
> undeath. He lies in a tomb of his own devising
> somewhere in the Great Swamp, waiting to serve his master
> once more.
>
> It is very rare knowledge that Acererak's empire was
> peopled by Ur-Flan, undead, and monsters of his own
> creation, and that it stretched through modern-day Medegia
> as well. Now he is the lord of all liches, though he
> has not called a coven of liches for 500 years. As his
> body crumbles, his spirit is free to roam the Oerth once
> more. In this form he has manipulated events in the
> Great Kingdom over the last 25 years.
>
> ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
>
> Yak-Men use a coven of liches when they need new bone
> scroll cases...

Re: Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors

Re: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
Monday, August 17, 2009 8:12 PM
From: "Chris Anderson"
To: "Thor Thunderer"
Cc:
greytalk@canonfire.com

I may very well have missed something published... how do we know that Acererak was one of Vecna's generals? And have we definitively pinpointed when he turned lich?

Also, where did the information about Acererak's early life come from?



With regards to Acererak putting down Kas's coup attempt... I actually played through the rebellion in my campaign. There, it was a complete surprise to Vecna, since his focus was entirely on putting down the Oeridian incursions into his territory.

Kas had no significant plan or organization ready to revolt: such would not be able to exist for long in the informer-ridden court that Vecna created. He also couldn't rely on his army commanders to attack Vecna, either, since Vecna had this habit of mind-controlling his minions... not Kas, since he was trusted and controlled through his Sword. But everyone else.

Instead, it was literally an impulsive act ... Kas found himself entirely alone with Vecna, who was exhausted from a massive sorcery that had just destroyed a largish portion of one of the Oeridian armies. Vecna was unprepared and weakened, Kas was at his strongest, and had recently dominated the Sword.

I was really pleased at how closely the game actually followed "reality".

-- Chris


On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Thor Thunderer wrote:

> Also, I can't imagine Vecna or Acererak sharing power
> in the Empire. Seems to me that any truce between them
> would last only long enough until one had an opening at the
> other.

My feeling is that Acererak didn't care at all about worldly power. He's referred to as a recluse quite often. Since we know he was one of Vecna's generals, I could see him easily ruling a region in Vecna's name, as long as he could be left to his studies and relay the actual business of ruling to minions, while reaping the benefits.

> Of course, it's quite possible that other sorcerors
> stepped up to try to grab power after Vecna died ...

It's almost certain that would be the case. Vecna's minions universally seem dedicated to the proposition that power is good. :)

> Also, in my campaign, Vecna routinely terrorized and hunted
> down anyone with any shred of magical ability. He was very
> aware of the need to stamp out any rivals. If Acererak had
> shown any hint of his existence during this period, he would
> have been instantly attacked and most likely slain.

Thing is, we know that Acererak's mother was slaughtered because of his power when he was young anyway, so, that kind of fits... even if you disregard the accounts that Acererak was one of Vecna's generals, and loyal enough to his benefactor to rescue him from certain doom.

> So, personally, I would not tie Acererak to the Spidered
> Throne. I haven't really thought about Acererak during
> this period, but my first thoughts are that he's
> entirely turned inwards, dealing with his conversion to
> lichdom and not really aware of what's going on
> "outside".

By the end of Vecna's reign, I suspect that's certainly the case... or else, from the other accounts, he'd have probably helped put down Kaz's mutiny early on.

TJB