Wednesday, April 22, 2009

Re: Population

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:07:29 +0200
From: sander
Subject: Re: Population

On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Marc Tizoc Gonzalez wrote:

> There is just too much to say about this thread. Thank you Gary!
> First, the statement was made:
> >>> > All those warhorses have to come from somewhere, and it's sure not Ket.
> Thus: herds of horses.
> <<<
> Actually, I suggest that civilized Bakluna be an ongoing source of excellent horseflesh from the mid 350s CY on.
> Sander says that a Gran March soldier's seven-year duty does not give that soldier the horse, but I suggest to Nick and company that if they want a

Well, I am not. I haven't had time to think much about the Gran March, but I am pretty sure that just as armor and arms, the horse belongs to the army, notthe soldiers 8-)

> popularly horse rich region, then after seven years surviving soldiers _do_ come to own their horse. (Of course with ownership comes taxation!
> Nerull, eat your heart out. :P )

Surviving should not be that hard.

> Sander also said:
> >> > Better take a look at the numbers of horses involved and the people/one horse ratio.
> [snip]
> But there was close to *NO* fighting in the Sheldomar.
> <<
> I've looked through both the FtA card and the '83 Guide. Will you tell us what ratio you mean? Also, that lack of fighting in the Sheldomar may have only been successful Keoghish propaganda.

The standing heavy and medium cavalry alone is 1000, giving us a ratio of 1/187, elven light cavalry adds 500, getting the ratio to 1/124. Now looking at the numbers of the 'Great host' there are bound to be no less than at least 500 cavalry in prvate hands, hence 2000 cavalry horses all told in service, or 1 horse per about 98 people.

And that is just the cavalry horses in service.

> I, for one, was not convinced by the protestations of inaction that Keoland's throne made. :P
> As for Sander's claim that the average person's per square mile is only four, I'm too lazy to check it, and anyways I need to know whether he refers to the Duchy of Ulek or the entire Sheldomar Valley. (But give the man kudos for such meticulous work regardless of which area he counted.)

By my claculations, the area of teh DoU is 30k+ sq. miles without the woods, and the population outside towns, discounting wood elves who live in the woods is ~ 134k, giving just slightly more than 4 persons, whetever human, elf or gnome, per a outside the towns.

> Regarding Sander's demand for an example of despotic governance over an armed populace, I'll do no more than type the letters, NAZI.

Doesn't match. For a lot of reasons.

> As for Sparta on its own terms, I'd like to remind everyone that Erik Satie composed three Gymnopedies, which are based upon a Spartan boys' dance.
> Those pieces of music are some of the most important (beautiful) that humanity has made.
> Drunk and dying with what Rasgon names nostalgia,
> Marc Tizoc
> PS - I struggle against sexism, but as long as we know that we are playing with such matters, I'm fine with limiting the Gran March draft to young men. With Ket so close and the reported sexism of civilized Bakluna (I'm remembering Wasim Qharallah's hire-toast), it seems arguable that the Gran
> March might want to protect the purity of its SOf mothers. It certainly

8-) purity of SOf mothers 8-) I would guess they are, mostly as well-mixed racially as Keolanders, if not more. Rather, who would tend to all the non-military matters if *everybody* went away for 7 years?

No offence meant to anybody.

> makes for contrast with the land of the rampant unicorn, which represents the Uleks, that haunts my dreams.

'Rampant Unicorn'???

Gran March Religions Document part 5

Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 20:39PM PST
From: Nick Perch Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail Blocker To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] Gran March Religions Document part 5 (last part)

I lied, I only split it into 5 parts. Parts 2 and 3 are somewhat large.

Nick Perch
Gran March Triad

-----Begin Part 5

The Harvest Church:
The Harvest Church is dedicated to the worship of the Oeridian agricultural Powers. The church worships Merikka and Velnius as the primary agricultural Powers, and pays homage to Atroa, Sotillon and Wenta according to the season. (Wenta is honored in all seasons in his aspect as the god of brewing.) Telchur is not worshiped, but services to appease him, and seek a gentle winter are held every Sunsebb, and services thanking the Power for his mercy are held every Readying.

In addition to the above-mentioned Powers, the Harvest Church venerates Saint Gwen, patron saint of the land and planting. The honoring of this saint is unique to the Harvest Church of Gran March, however it seems clear that this veneration is not some misguided cult, as priests who claim to follow Saint Gwen have been observed to invoke miracles in his/her name.

The Harvest Church is broadly worshipped in Gran March, encompassing a greater number of worshippers than any other single faith. This is a church of the common man, and while less politically influential than the churches of Heironeous or even Zilchus, the leaders of the Harvest Church are still well heeded by those in seats of power.

The Harvest Church was established by a group of like-minded priests in the earliest days of the settlement of Gran March. Though the idea of a multi-Power church may seem odd to outsiders, it has been a part of the fabric of Gran March for so long that it is accepted as the normal order of things. In the days when the Knights of the Watch were bringing order to Gran March, they made a decision to support and defend the Harvest Church.

This decision was based on the view that the Church would be an influence likely to avoid the petty squabbles between followers of different agricultural traditions that might otherwise have plagued the land. That alliance continues to this day, to the benefit of both parties.

Centers of Worship:

Chapels of the Harvest Church are found throughout Gran March, in villages and hamlets and towns. They are typically simple wooden structures, but adorned with a wealth of trappings to reflect each of the Powers venerated by the church. Such chapels are almost always attended by a priest, and serve both the host community and the surrounding villages. The center of the Harvest Church is the Golden Temple in Barony Bullette. This temple, constructed of yellow stone imported from quarries in the Hellfurnaces, is home to the High Harvestmaster and a large congregation. The remains of Saint Gwen are also said to be interred here.

The Temple of Merikka in Orlane is unusual in the Harvest Church, in that it is primarily devoted to a single Power. It was brought into the Harvest Church only within the last 10 years or so, and retained the trappings of a dedicated temple of Merikka until very recently. In 589 CY, the temple suffered extensive damage during a raid from the Rushmoors. While the main structure is still intact, many of the trappings (particularly the gold statues that were the pride of the church) were carted off into the Rushmoors. The temple has been partly refurbished, and there are currently negotiations between the leaders of the Harvest Church and those of the Orlane temple regarding the inclusion of the trappings of other Powers when the temple in Orlane is fully restored.

Activities of the Priesthood:

While each priest receives spells from a single Power, they consider themselves to be priests of the Harvest Church, and perform the rituals of the Harvest Church rather than of any individual Power. The priests of the Harvest Church are charged to aid those who work the land of Gran March. To this end they heal the sick, use their magics to enhance crop growth and prevent crop failure, carry news or messages as they make their rounds from village to village, and spread the word of new agricultural advances.

The priests of the Harvest Church are valued counselors as well. As with the Zilcherans and Cuthbertians, the Harvestors are frequently called upon to mediate disputes. Their advice is frequently sought by those in authority on matters concerning the common folk of Gran March. Additionally, Harvestors are considered, as a group, to be diplomats second in skill only to the Zilcherans, and priests of the Harvest Church fill not a few ambassadorial posts. As with the Zilcherans, Harvestors are frequently paired with a more military minded deputy ambassador. Reyla Hyttaska (priest 12, Merikka), the current ambassador to Keoland is one such. She is paired with deputy ambassador Lieutenant Deskar Vaggarel, (0-level human) a retired army supply officer.


About 24% of the adult population are members of the Harvest Church. They do not follow any single Power. The nearly exclusive majority of the members of the church are farmers or those in related jobs (such as millers or brewers). All the human races of Gran March are represented in the congregation, though a majority of the followers have Oeridian blood.

Females out number males about 11 to 9. The congregation comprises all alignments common to Gran March, as well as a significant number of Chaotic Good and Neutral Good followers.

The priesthood of the Harvest Church comprises priests of each of the Powers venerated by that church. The distribution is roughly 40% priests of Merikka, 20% priests of Velnius, 15% priests of Wenta, 10% priests of Atroa, 10% priests of Sotillon, and 5% priests of Saint Gwen. There are no priests of Telchur in the Harvest Church. All told, there are about 970 priests of the Harvest Church, and they tend to follow similar distribution patterns as the congregation.

Church Leadership:

The church is led by a High Vestry made up of nine leading priests. The nine offices of the High Vestry are each selected by different methods, and for different terms. The office of the Youngest is held by the youngest full priest in the church at the time that the office becomes open. The Youngest serves for 5 years, at which point a new Youngest is automatically selected.

The office of the Eldest is fairly self-explanatory. The remaining 6 offices are undefined at this time. The office of the High Priest is held for 10 years at a time, and the office holder is selected during the Richfest celebrations every ten years by voting among all Harvest Church priests. The current High Priest, who began her second term in 590 CY is Gabriella Consannis (priest 14, Merikka). Gabriella is currently using her office to smooth the integration of refugees into Gran March society and the Harvest Church. She is well respected and heeded by those in authority, and her counsel is valued even by Magnus Vridanian, Commandant of the March and a priest of Heironeous. She splits her time between the Golden Temple attending to the business of the church, and Hookhill where she makes sure the concerns of the common folk are respected.

Relationships with other Faiths:

The Harvest Church gets along well with its fellow churches in Gran March. The Church has an extremely close relationship with the churches of Phyton and St. Cuthbert, and the priests of the Harvest Church will usually not hesitate to help a follower of Phyton or St. Cuthbert in need. This warmth is reciprocated, and the three churches enjoy an informal alliance to serve the needs of the people of Gran March.

The priests of the Harvest Church are on cordial but distant terms with the Zilcherans. They are suspicious of the Pholtites, whom they regard as slightly dangerous zealots, and because of the extremely strained relationships between the Pholtites and both the Cutbertians and the followers of Phyton. They are suspicious of the followers of the Shalm, but largely ignore them, and they have a rapidly cooling relationship with the Heironean church, as a result of the proselytizing currently in progress.

The Church has a friendly but distant relationship with the church of Fharlanghn.

-----End Part 5 - This is the last part. There is no part 6.

Parties, Philidor, Earthdawn

Priority: normal
Date sent: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:10:38 CST
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Organization: Dominican Univ., River Forest, IL
Subject: [GREYTALK] Parties, Philidor, Earthdawn (not much GC)
Originally to: greytalk@MIT.EDU

Lord Moral High-Tone wrote:
>So no more killing in those horrid dungeons of yours.
>From now on it’s a Greyhawk full of Halfling birthday parties only.

If you’re running a campaign like that, count me in! I’m getting tired of putting my characters in danger all the time. What I want some nice, fun scenarios like birthday parties for awhile. I’ve actually been working on a campaign setting for awhile now called Happy Valley, where chaos and evil are practically non-existent. I’ll never find anyone to play it, but I find it good therapy to work on it after a grueling day in the real world.

Paul wrote:
>Phlogiston is later (but the ether is also Green) Phlogiston comes
>from the ideas of English and German philosophers to explain
>propagation of waves through space [snipped]

I was not aware, but I appreciate the correction. At least I was right on everything else, which is pretty good for me.

Noel Graham wrote:
>Actually, if anyone’s interested, I had a discussion with Carl
>Sargent about who Philidor the Blue Wizard was, before he fell from
>the face of the earth [snipped][he means Mr. Sargent, not Philidor]

I thought the list had already decided Philidor was Papa Smurf. Or was he a giant space hamster…?

Ug the Eloquent wrote:
>Me sometime force young orcs to train as well – much gold for older
>Much odd spirit train too (me thinks this system from Earthdawn)

Me not know Earthdawn. What spirit training do? Or do you mean Soul Train? Bad show.

Scott “Volstagg” Casper
Yak-Men agree with Ug. “Cooked elf—Yum!”

Tuesday, April 21, 2009

Gran March Request for Volunteers

Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:54:07 EST
From: Nick Perch
Subject: Gran March Request for Volunteers

Hi all,

We're building a country, and could use some help. If you're interested, let us know. Also, comments on the document itself welcomed. First part is information we've put together to date. Second part is a suggested format for further development.

Nick Perch
-Gran March (NC/SC, USA) Triad Member for Living World of Greyhawk

Gran March has 10 Baronies and 2 Marches. They are briefly described in this document. Population for the regions refers to population other than that in towns or villages mentioned in the text. Possible industries are listed in approximate order of importance, but may be changed to suit the vision of
future developers.

The Dim March comprises the Dim Forest east of the Realstream. The seat of the Marcher Lord is a fort on the road from Buxton's Crossing to Hochoch, in the middle of the forest. Non-military population is about 1000 humans, plus about 8800 elves and 1500 humanoids.

The Rush March comprises the Rushmoors. The seat of the Marcher Lord is a fort about 45 miles south and 45 miles west of Shiboleth, near the border of the swamp. Population is about 1500 humans, mostly near the fort and in the regions of the swamp between Orlane and the Javan. There are also about 1500
humanoids in this area.

Barony Gorgon comprises the southern Lorridges. A line that runs due east from the point where the Realstream enters the northern reaches of the Dim Forest sets the northern border. The capital (pop 600) is on a road that winds from Hookhill to the capital of Barony Peryton to the east.
Pop: 13200, 600 dwarves.
Electors: 3
Possible industries: Shepherding, agriculture (winemaking), mining (copper, gems).

Barony Peryton comprises the Lortmills to the extent that they have been claimed. The northern border is the same as that for Barony Gorgon. A line that runs due north from the source of the Lort River sets the eastern border. The capital (pop 300) is in the southern part of the barony, on a road that runs in a loop from Hookhill to Buxton's Crossing.
Pop: 3500, 1200 dwarves, about 1000 humanoids.
Electors: 2
Possible industries: Mining, building stone, smelting, smithing.

Barony Owlbear comprises the lands between the Dim forest and Rushmoors, east of the Realstream. It includes a small strip of the Oytwood, north of the Javan, the town of Hochoch (pop 5500), and an area of about 5 miles radius about Hochoch. The capital is Orlane (see module N1), current population 300.
Pop: 12100.
Electors: 4
Possible Industries: Agriculture, timber, rushes.

Barony Basilisk is bounded on the west by the Rushmoors. The northern border is a line running due east from the northernmost point of the Rushmoors. The eastern border is a line running north-south 15 miles east of Shiboleth. The southern border is the Sheldomar, and a line straight west from the source of the Sheldomar to the Rushmoors. The capital is Shiboleth (pop 5900) which sits on the road from Niole Dra to Thornward, a major trade route.
Pop: 30800.
Electors: 10
Possible Industries: Trade, agriculture, cloth.

Barony Nereid is bounded by the Lort on the East, and the Sheldomar on the south. The northern border is the same as that for Barony Basilisk, while the western border is the eastern border of Barony Basilisk. This is a rich agricultural area, and prosperous from trade across the Lort and down the Sheldomar. The capital is Lortenford (pop 2000), which sits at the juncture of the Lort and Sheldomar rivers.
Pop: 42900.
Electors: 15
Possible Industries: Trade, agriculture, cloth (silk?).

Barony Manticore sits between Barony Peryton to the north and Barony Nereid to the south. The western border is an extension of the western border of Barony Peryton south until it intersects the northern border of Barony Nereid. The eastern border is the Lort, or a line running due north from the source of the Lort. The capital (pop 1000) sits near the source of the Lort River.
Pop: 31900.
Electors: 12
Possible Industries: Other than agriculture, we've given it no thought. But I'm sure all those folks do something productive. Make it up.

Barony Chimera is bounded on the north by Barony Gorgon, on the east by Barony Manticore, on the south by Baronies Basilisk and Nereid, and on the west by a line running due south from the southeasternmost point of the Lorridges. The capital sits on the road from Buxton's Crossing to the capital of Barony Peryton. The population of the capital is about 900. This is a rich farming area.
Pop: 29700
Electors: 10
Possible Industries: Agriculture, horses, cotton.

Barony Griffon is the richest largest in Gran March, in terms of population. It is bounded on the south by the Rushmoors and Barony Basilisk, on the north by a line running due west from the southeasternmost corner of the Lorridges, on the east by Barony Chimera, and on the west by a line running due north from the easternmost point of the Dim Forest. The capital is Buxton's Crossing (pop 3000), situated at the intersection of the road from Niole Dra to Thornward, and the road running from the capital of Barony Peryton to Hochoch and points west. This is the industrial heart of Gran March, and much of the military production (armor, weapons, clothing) takes place here. While the farmland is rich, and agriculture is potentially very profitable here, a large percentage of the population is involved in crafts.
Pop: 47300
Electors: 17
Possible Industries: Weaving, smithing, horses, agriculture, leatherworking, cattle ranching.

Barony Bullette is the largest barony in terms of area, with the Dim Forest as the western border, the same northern border as Barony Gorgon, and an eastern border corresponding to the western border of Barony Griffon extended north to the border with Bissel. This barony produces most of the horses and cattle for Gran March. The capital (pop 1100) is thirty miles due west of Hookhill.
Pop: 16500
Electors: 11
Possible Industries: Horses, cattle ranching, leatherworking, agriculture.

Barony Dragon is bounded by Baronies Bullette, Griffon, and Gorgon, and the northern border is the same as that for Barony Gorgon. This is the capital barony, and in addition to the Baron, the Commandant rules here. The capital of both the barony and the country is Hookhill (pop 7500) which sits astride the road from Niole Dra to Thornward. A smaller trade road runs west to the capital of Barony Bullette and east to the capital of Barony Gorgon.
Pop: 33000
Electors: 16
Possible Industries: Agriculture, trade, smithing, and horses.
The following should serve as a guide to the type of information that should be developed. By no means, allow this to limit your creativity. Note in some cases that the information has been provided for you. Feel free to use this as a springboard. As your assigned editor, I will be available to answer any questions you may have and to review any information you have created. Once again, thanks for assisting us to make a great campaign.

Information Needed
General Information
Major Roads
General geography
Political information
Current Baron(ess)
Current Electors
Current Events

Economic Information
Major Industries
Natural Resources
Major Crops

Historical and Social Information
Major Historical Events
Local Holidays
Local Legends

Size and population
Architectural style
Major Temples
Troop contingents
Other Major Buildings
Major Organizations

Other Places of Interest
Major Landmarks

Major NPCs
Family History
Line of Succession
General Competence
Any items of note
Any Other NPCs of note

Of course, feel free to develop beyond these guidelines. Thanks, I look forward to your submission.

Fwd: Nolandr's account of eve of our escape

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 99 20:17PM PDT
From: victor gonzalez Add To
Subject: [GREYTALK] [Fwd: Nolandr's account of eve of our escape.]

Nolandr's account of eve of our escape.

Fie! Again our plans were foiled. After all our planning to overcome the orc's camp we were fooled by a leprechaun and his henchmen. Stoker levitated the man-beast beyond sight before being felled the ghoul. Being the last two (myself and Malek who had quickly recovered from the ghoul's petrifying claws) standing in our party surrounded by all sorts of foul looking beasts. We surrendered.

Stripped and interrogated. Again I won't go into the details of our torture, nor of the insignificant discussions we had with our captors. Stoker was bled and used as tygre bait. The man-beast returned and the ghoul turned out to be a leprechaun. We were duped.

Malek sought to reason with the sprite to get our freedom. I appealed to his sense of duty to release us. Afterall he had taken all our property (including that harp, oh Wee Jas what is that thing?) He wasn't to be reasoned with. I made thinly veiled threats about the capriciousness of Wee Jas and her gifts of magic. Still the sprite was resolute. Curse him. I didn't leave Shar to be a slave. So when the beasts chained us together for labor I vowed to escape; or die trying.

They took away my possessions, but not my faith. I fashioned a holy item to continue my prayers. A plan came to me during evening recitations...

Calling upon Wee Jas, I empowered Malek to break his bonds. He ran into the night seeking help. I can only hope he reaches Marya Darkeyes safely and that she will agree to help us. Much later there is a commotion near the tree I am chained to. Freddy (the vile leprechaun) stops by me to taunt me further.

"We're going to capture your friend."

"This is your last warning, free me." I reply.

"Ha" and he sped into the brush.

I quickly said the holy words and brought about Wee Jas' justice. The sprite's helm would became unbearably hot and soon he would have to remove it. I can only hope it will distract him in the midst of battle.

But lo. He doesn't remove it. He rages at the center of the camp. Shrieking at the top of his lungs. The man-beast could only stand about ineffectively.

Just then several men burst from the trees pursued by a motley group of my captors. Malek broke into the clearing. He had returned to rescue me. I gave praise to Wee Jas, and said a simple prayer of protection. Someone slipped from the melee and broke my bonds.

Guided by Wee Jas, I made my way back into the camp. With the noise of melee and the ravings of Freddy at the center of camp, I was able to pass into the sprite's tent unnoticed. I gathered our belongings into a sack, crossed myself, peered out and again called Wee Jas' fury upon Freddy. I said another prayer of thanksgiving and protection and returned to my liberators.

The stranger who broke my bonds lay bleeding only a few feet away from the broken chains. Kneeling down, I stanched the flow of blood, comforted him and thanked him for his efforts. If he is to die let his soul be guided by Wee Jas to a just reward.

Picking my way through the felled enemy I found another large man as amidst a some goblins. He was closer to death than the last man. Again I administered to his wounds and said a prayer to Wee Jas. Perhaps it isn't his time.

All about me steel clanged on armor and shields. Dust was kicked up into the bloody air. Death is not foreign to a priest of Wee Jas but I no longer wanted to stay. A ferocious man was slaying monsters left and right and shout, nay, screaming epithets at them and daring them to offer a challenge. That was when the gnolls emerged.

I vaguely remember someone putting the vile sprite out of his misery with a well placed arrow blessed by kiss of Wee Jas. I clamored onto the back of a horse and barely remember but a blur of our escape beyond that.

Pre-War skirmishes and WG8 (was: When did the REAL Greyhawk Wars begin?)

Priority: Normal
Date sent: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:29:07 -0400
Send reply to: Keith Horsfield
From: Keith Horsfield afn09454@AFN.ORG
Subject: [GREYTALK] Pre-War skirmishes and WG8 (was: When did the REAL Greyhawk Wars begin?)

Remember this post:

> So you think it is a trick question, see Dragon #65.
> Answer: 578 CY – Kingdom of Nyrond, Prelacy of Almor and their
>allies proclaim war on the Great Kingdom.
> Oh, and btw the Grandwood Forest was possibly in for a world of
>hurt in 578 CY, see Dragon #63.

Here is more fuel to add to the pre-FtA maneuvering.

From WG8: Fate of Istus, pg. 69 (center column, 1st full paragraph)

“Ivid has become more obsessed with extending his lands in order to form the “Greater Aerdi Empire” ever since his declaration of war against Almor and Nyrond. The Herzog’s subsequent blunting of the armies of the Golden League (Nyrond, Almor and those countries comprising the Iron League; see Guide to the World of Greyhawk, “An Overview of Political Divisions”) has added only fresh fuel to his monomania. The aforementioned battle(s) transpired after the events detailed in T1-4 (The Temple of Elemental Evil) and spanned two years, ending in a minor strategic victory for Ivid’s field army under the leadership of the Herzog, and seeing the withdrawal of Almorian and Nyrondese armies to the west of the Harp River.”

Taking all of the above into account, the following might be surmised:

578 – Mutual declaration of war; No actual campaigning due to the Golden League trying to come to some census of the proper strategy and Ivid having to deal with the insurrection of the Grandwood Forest.

579 – ToEE takes place (need to reread this module to see if there is any mention of events to the east); Campaigns begin between the GK and the Golden League.

580 (late) or 581 (early) – The Golden League retreats behind the Harp River.

This also leads to a narrowing of when WG8 takes place:

Under the section for Rel Mord:

The Iron Fist Guild is founded in 504 CY. When describing the Guild’s building it is mentioned that mercenaries have been gathering there for over 70 years.

With the understanding that WG8 is a transitional module prior to the wars, this makes sense and places it between 576 and 582 (each over 70 years but less than 80). The above notes on the war with the Golden League further narrow down the window to 580 to 582.

There are other clues as to the timeframe of WG8, one of the best so far is that Ivid has replaced Xaene with Karloolck six months ago. Anyone know when this took place?

Comments, suggestions, opinions?

Keith Horsfield
Member Team OS/2
“To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail”
Home page:

Friday, April 17, 2009

Re: Alchemist Gnomes

Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 16:28PM PDT
From: "Rip Van Wormer" Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Alchemist Gnomes

In a message dated 9/10/99 5:21:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rtaylor@CMC.NET writes:

>> I see gnomes as being basically soft metal, gem, and woodworkers, not unlike a milder form of dwarf.

You already have dwarves, though. You don't need any watered-down versions of them. It's important to determine what makes gnomes a unique and interesting race in their own right, or it would be better to get rid of them altogether (though I consider the two races to be closely related).

The Northern Reaches gazateer for the D&D Known World setting had a ruined gnomish city in it. When gnomes lived there, they actively bred slimes, oozes, and jellies (in middens protected against their acids) in order to utilize them in making synthetic construction materials and other alchemical concoctions. Of course, nowadays the gnomes are gone and the blobs are wild, but it wasn't always so.

There was a gnomish NPC in the City of Greyhawk boxed set with a rubber chicken made from Hepmonaland rubber trees, or perhaps they were in the Vast Swamp. Silly, yes, but it's one of the exotic materials I imagine gnomes working with.

That's not to say there aren't gnomish miners and gem-workers and smiths.
There are. Gemstones and gold are a fundamental part of their religious symbology, and the race's connection to the oerth and elemental earth is one of their defining characteristics. Svirfneblin are certainly more elementally-aligned than dwarves are, while the gnomes who dwell among the roots are almost as close to them as dryads. I just don't see them as milder than dwarves; they're subtler, more detailed, more obsessed with intricities. A dwarf builds a gigantic square building with cyclopean sculptures. A gnome builds a twisted tower made of interlocking spheres, made to blend in with the natural limestone formations. A dwarf wears a gold ring carved to look like a dragon, while her gnomish friend wears a complex matrix of silver dragons and golden auromvoraxes that bite each others tails when you hit a button. It's this kind of attitude that causes them to look deep into the fundamental nature of the elements in more obsessive and strange ways than a typical dwarf bothers with.

Both gnomes and dwarves are generally lawful, but dwarven law is more about community and tradition, while gnomish law is a continuous creative effort tailored to individual craftsgnomes and clans.

The primary differences between dwarves and gnomes, ability scorewise, that a gnome is more likable, less robust, more intelligent and less practical and stalwart than a dwarf is. A gnome is more magical, specializing in the least practical form of glamour. The relationship between gnomes and illusions deserves a bigger post than this one, but here it is:

Gnomes are very concerned with appearances, perhaps self-conscious about their sizes and visages.
Gnomes are aware that things are rarely exactly as they appear to be, something that reflects itself in their traps, architecture, religion (based on secrets within secrets and holy puzzles), and scientific endeavors.
Gnomes are tricky, as fond of crafting machiavellian schemes and pranks as fine jewelry, and with as much attention to meaningless detail.
Gnomes are magical, with a relationship to leprechauns and jinxkin like that of, but not as close as their kinship with the dwur.
Dwarves, on the other hand, are utilarian, using artwork to tell a story record a history, please a patron, or make a calculated impression but often leaving a sword or facade blank when there is no need to do otherwise. They are concerned with physical strength and endurance above anything else, concerned with making their artifacts outlast them; their gods reflect this, manifesting themselves as creatures of enormous strength and vigor. A dwarf is forceful, remaking his home in his own image, while a gnome attempts to preserve some of the natural features. Dwarves lack the gnomish guile, although many will lie when necessary or guard a secret with the same zeal with which they would a pot of gold. Their magic, too, is practical, used in crafting and war, but never for things they see as frivolous.

I'm unsure what "dwur" would mean in Flan. I'm sure it doesn't mean "short person," since an AD&D dwarf does not commonly impress humans as being small. I imagine it would be something like "maker," referring to their superior creative abilities (compared to the Flan) and posession of iron and steel. "Iron people?"

"-niz" does refer to a small size (or possibly young age), appended as it is to both gnomes and halflings, who have little else in common. Gnomes are also craftsmen, but their crafts are not always as tangible as a dwarf's are.

These are the impressions a wandering Flan would have of a gnomish city. Superficially, it would seem not to be there at all, cloaked by illusions and made to integrate into the natural world. If he was invited in, it might have seemed to be a place of wonders, with fantastic substances and intricate devices, some real and some imaginary. What sort of people scheme from an invisible world and craft miracles that humanity hasn't even dreamt of?

"Noniz" means "little divine ones."

Re: Genealogy

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Genealogy
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:13:40 +0200
From: Patrice Forno
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List


-----Message d'origine-----

>You really are on your own if you want to work on the genealogy of
GREYHAWK's major NPCs. The only NPC I can think of that has a known relative is Nerof
>Gasgal, mayor of Greyhawk City.

The relative is his daughter : Xerien Albhart, Thief (FFF,85 GtAB,116,117)

>In some other book, either in Night Watch, by Robin Wayne or it could even
be in From the Ashes ( I dont really recall) - the main guard (Captain of the
>Watch)of GH City, has a sister or some relative that is being held by (Once
>again I think) the Bandit Kingdoms. They are with holding this person
against him so that he will betray the City.
>I cant recall who it is or from which of the many refercences it could be
>from. Hopefully this will jog somebodys memory and they can give more
clues. On the other hand, I have quite a few for Keoland, that I have made up. But
>those are not Cannon.

He is Sental Nurev (FFF,9 GA,37 FAC,8,11). His brother (Sarek Nurev) is held prisoner in Stoink in the Bandits Kingdoms (FFF,9).

Here are other relative links I could find in the Greyhawk Characters :

- Ruberis Nenshen (FAC,52), brother of Org Nenshen;
- Drelnza (Drelzna) (S4,29 S1-4,79), daughter of Iggwilv, sister of Iuz;
- Arkalan Al-Sammal (WGR3,4 FFF,25 GtAB,97), sage & young brother of Rary;
- Lynwerd I (WGR4,68,94 PGG,12,25 GtAB,27,30,31,33,62) son of Archbold III;
- Talasek Thraydin (WGA1 WGA2 WGA3 PGG,31 GtAB,89), son of Edgar Thraydin (WGA2,10), himself son of Talamar Thraydin (TC91,30 WGA1-3), all three Paladins of St Cuthbert in GReyhawk City;
- all the Ivid dynasty, described in Ivid the undying;
- Avras IV (aka Thrommel) (T1-4,86 Rot8,43 WGR4,9), son of Belvor IV;
- Jolene of Veluna (T1-4,86 WGR4,9), daughter of the most powerful temporal leader of Veluna (Hazen ???);
- Iuz, son of Graz'zt & Iggwilv.
- Lucious Stairnezh (Erik of Urnst) (GoF,89 GtAB,125) tells he is related (nephew or brother) to the Duke of Urnst;
- Melf Brightflame, Prince (Melf of the Arrow) (FAC,68 WGR1,3 PGG,26 GtAB,35,70), nephew or cousin of Yolande Queen of Celene;
- Valedmor (Dr225,69) brother of Yolande, Queen of Celene;
- Querchard, Earl (WGG,36 WGCG,17 AoF,38 GDQ1-7,10,15), related to Owen of Geoff (WGG,22 WGCG,17 AoF,26 S3,2 S1-4,43), cousin of King Kimbertos Skotti (WGG,27 WGCG,17 AoF,29 GDQ1-7,12 PGG,25 GtAB,32);
- Jallarzi Sallavarian (FFF,27 WGA4,85 TC92,173 LT1,2 Rot8,4,56 PGG,22 GtAB,6,7,31,43,60,63,71,88), related to the Duke of Urnst;
- Jaran Krimeeah (The Black One) (or Jason Krimeah) (WGG,40 WG12,5 GA,42 AoF,42 Dr241,75 PGG,25) is said to be related to an Aerdian Overking, maybe Ivid III;
- Paralen Isenben, Count (WGR4,9), distant cousin of Belvor IV;
- Frolmar Ingerskatti, Prince (WARS,23 AoF,30 GtAB,33,34 SB,5), distant cousin of Latmac Ranold;
- Stinvri, King (WGG,22 WARS), cousin of the Overking of the time in Rauxes;
- Katarina of Walworth, Countess, Knight Commander (AoF,37 PGG,27,55 GtAB,21), cousin of Holmer of Walworth;
- Grace Grenell (WGG,29 WGCG,17 Ivid PGG,12,24 GtAB,23,24,26-28), cousin of Ivid V;
- Osmeran, Captain-General (WGR4,84,94), distant cousin of Osson of Almor;

FFF = Folks, Feuds & FActions (CoG)
GoF = Gem of the Flanaess (CoG)
AoF = Atlas of the FLanaess (FtA)
FAC = From the Ashes Campaign Book (FtA)
WGG = World of Greyhawk Guide (GH83)
WGCG = World of Greyhawk Glossography (GH83)
LT1 = Lost Tombs, Vol I (Star CAirns)
SB = Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook

Patrice Forno - Marseille - France
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French WiF Page :

Re: DMs who taketh away

Date sent: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:32:20 -0700
Send reply to: “John Fox [TEMP]” John.W.Fox@Eng.Sun.COM
From: “John Fox [TEMP]” John.W.Fox@ENG.SUN.COM
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] DMs who taketh away

Dear Net-gang:

After lurking for about a week on this subject I just have to say a few things about removing unwanted items (magical) or artifacts (relics) from the players’ hands.

1) Can you say rust monster. This is particularly useful if the bad guys have an illusion on the rust monster so one of the PC attacks it with his sword.
What sword……rust now.
2) Can you say captured and all items removed. Run a small campaign where characters are captured and they manage to get back most but not all of their magic items. The bad guys gave the artifact to his boss (lead into another adventure)
3) Did someone say theif. I mean what to say someone does not go into their room when the groups is out bar hopping or eating. The character does not take all his possessions with him to church, dinner, the brothel(oops), the opera.
4) Dragon’s fiery breath, you take xx points of damage, roll, roll and the following items melt because they did not save versus breath weapons.
5) Assign a certain percentage chance of an item breaking if the person is using giant strength. Say a 1 or 3 percent chance each time the item is used against a hard object. This only applies to weapons.
6) Some very important treasure requires that magical items be sacrificed to get into the place (Greyhawk castle)
7) A sage of immense knowledge may require a magical item or two to do research of for the characters to obtain certain information they need. “You want that information that only I know, I require a magic item and gold…my services are not CHEAP!!”
8) King: “My that sword is really nice. I always wanted a Dragon Slayer Sword. You say you want to live here, we just can’t have anyone taking up residence. It will require a small fee. Boy that sword looks nice (as the armed guard looks on).”
9) Priest: “Oh great Boccob what is thy bidding from thy humble servant?” An Avator of Boccob appears (minor one) and says “Thy mace of disruption is needed for a great battle in a far away land. You must stay here and guard the [word missing] so the evil which resides here does not rise. A priest by the name of [word missing] Undead Destroyer has need of your mace. He will arrive tomorrow. His [word missing] is of utmost importance!”
10) Player: “OOPS, I roled a 1.
DM: “Let’s see, you are on a cliff (ship on ocean, in air), a 1, hmm, you dropped the rod of life and death. It falls down the cliff and disappears from sight”
11) Demon: “My master says he wants that magic item…Give now or you die!”
12) DM: “You launch the fireball and suddenly the rod fizzles and sparks and turns a dull grey. It looks like it is out of charges.”
13) DM: “You are battling in cold water. After the fight with the sauhagin you suddenly notice that one of your rings is missing (cold water makes fingers smaller in diameter due to shrinking)
14) Artifact: “I said we are going to do THIS” After about three or four times the player will get sick of taking orders from the item and go to church and give it up.
15) Setting: Players are in bar (gathering) whatever and a artifact of good sees an artifact of evil..”Too ARMS, EVIL, EVIL, KILL, KILL, DESTROY”
16) Setting: Players in gathering with artifact that has a dirty mind. “Hey babe (guy) what to have a real good time!” This is particularly embarrassing to people of good alignment.
17) And the Jerko the Jackass got the last piece of the rod of seven parts. As the last part was joined he was filled with the fealing (thought) that he was GOD. The other gods looked down and laughed when suddenly a 100 HD lightning bolt decended on Jerko, turning him into a pile of ash and the rod of seven parts became the rod of seven separate parts again.
18) Artifact: “You are asking me to do what!?!?!?!? I don’t think so. As a matter of fact your alignment has strayed recently. Crack”
19) One of the beads of whatever (see DM handbook) says that players [word missing] down all magic items and then walks away forgetting what happened.
20) Evil artifact like Blackrazor must kill every so often or then turn on their master for hit points.
21) My mission is to destroy the evil under the ruins of castle XXXX. You must put me into the recess on the throne so the evil will stay banished forever.
22) Player lays artifact down near ant hill. Most number ant walks over, steps on artifact, thus destroying said object.
23) Player ends up in water and must ditch every heavy object to stay afloat.

To DMs, if the item really unbalances the game, talk with the player and [word missing] they are willing to make a sacrifice at the temple giving up the item in exchange for something a less powerful with promise of a future favor.

In all things try and make it reasonable and do start to play DM versus player.

Hope this helps a few people

John W. Fox

Monday, April 13, 2009

GH notes from GenCon

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 99 09:26AM PDT
From: Stéphane Tanguay Add To Address Book Add To Junk To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] GH notes from GenCon

Hi everybody !

> Is THIS the "exciting" news TSR had to tell us about Greyhawk? I sure hope not!

From my own GH notes at GenCon (please remember that english is not my first language so I could stand corrected):

NO Hardcover or Faith and Avatars style book are coming.

Sean did finish a "Return to the Slave Lord", set in 591 CY. The story begin in Dyvers and goes along the wild Coast, into the buffer zone and the Pomarj. It is a 128 pages document, divided in 4 sections, each section containing about 25 % source material, 25% informations on the Slave Lords, 25% on how to introduce your group to this adventure and 25% of adventure hooks. Should be for level 4-7 at the beggining. I think it will be released in spring 2000, in 2nd edition format.

If there is ever a Faith and Avatars product done, chances are that the Avatars part will be slim since Greyhawk don,t have much of an history in term of avatars intervention.

There is no deadline set for the Big Flanaess map that Kij Jonhson was working on. The map is about 4' by 5' and defy most attemps at printing it. At this moment, the map is in the Cartography department at TSR, being rendered in suitable format (it was originnaly hand drawn). In the meanwhile, the map is used as an internal tools by GH products designers. We may see some excerpt of it in future products featuring GH.

They will be other novels like Against the Giant. White Plum Mountain, by Paul Kidd, is due October and a Descent into the Depths of the Earth is announced for spring 2000.

Chances are that we will see other "Return to..." type modules.

There is also a chance that we will see something with Iuz as someone at WotC (Adkinson ? I can't remeber...) is quit fond of this villain.

A new Rogue Gallery is on the wish list. Some of these NPC make an appearance in the Return to the Slaves Lord adventure.

It is possible that we see a "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" since Gary is back in WotC fold and that it is hard not to imagine him NOT doing it.

There is plans to put everything GH on a CD-ROM.

WotC will keep the timeline in GH at 591 CY and, in fact, will probably don't release more GH specific products, since GH will be the default world for the core products, the same way GH was the default world for the first edition rulebooks and modules. Supposedly that Return to White Plume Montain will be a good exemple of this new philosophy (RTTKOTB was NOT a good example !). Even the map in the core products shall fit nicely in Greyhawk New development in Greyhawk proper will be done by the Living Greyhawk campaign. Erik Mona is presently working on a gazetter which will include 2-3 pages on each nation and a timeline, for the least. He hope to be able to send this information to regional triad by november. There is a good chance that this information will be more generally released by the begginning of 2000, either as an RPGA only thing, or for general public consumption, with maybe a RPGA pre-release. They just don't know yet so please don't jump at them ! As Erik is making good use of Roger Moore's notes, there is even a lesser chance that we see an new hardcover one day.

WotC want the RPGA (and Living Greyhawk) to become a big thing. There is a lot of activity going on there and we shall expect to see more and more GH articles in Polyhedron

Against the Giants was sold out at GenCon on the second day IIRC. Sean added 65 000 words to the original 32 000 words of the trilogy. I won't go further into this, since Samwise already posted a review.

Morgan Rodwell is gonna be the new OJ editor. He plan to accept shorter articles (along with the longer ones) and non-canon GH articles. They are always looking for volontary editor.

At Gary's "Evolution of the Greyhawk world", we were able to get some interesting tidbits, the most surprising being that Nyrond was indeed behind the Scarlet Brotherhood when this one kidnapped Thrommel. How about that for an interesting twist ?

Gary also found his originals notes for Castle Greyhawk and I hope someday they are going to see the light. Lisa Stevens and a few others had a chance to have a look at it.

Looks like someone from Texas really has the original of Gary's Stoink map. Gary told us how surprised he was when that guy contacted him to certify the authenticity of this map.

Hope this help !

Stéphane Tanguay

P.S. it was great fun to meet with other GH fans before that only known online. I met Paul Stormberg, Scott Casper, Erik Mona, Steve Wilson, Morgan Rodwell, Nathan Irving, Rick Miller, Wayne Rossi, Tom Harrison, Nathan Irving, Kenneth Newkist and two other Blackrazor guild members, etc. Many of them looks quite different in real life than you can imagine online. I look forward to meet them again.

I survived GenCon99 and all I got was this lousy t-shirt....

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 99 14:41PM PDT
From: Tom Harrison Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail
Subject: [GREYTALK] I survived GenCon99 and all I got was this lousy t-shirt....

Ahhhh....its good to be back home.

For all you guys who missed it, GenCon 99 was pretty damn cool. Lots of new stuff to gawk at -- including Gold Rush Game's new SENGOKU Japanese historical fantasy rpg, Pinnacle's BRAVE NEW WORLD alternate history superhero rpg, Gary Gygax's Lejendary Adventures FRPG (Yes! It's finally out!), and AEG has 7th Sea going full steam ahead. I have to admit, I predicte the 3E announcement would spark the next major flame war here, so I'm looking forward to a flood of creative posts in the next two weeks. ;)

But I'm sure ALL of you want to know how the Council events went, don't you. Don't deny it! You're just itching to know!

Thanks to all you attendees that made it to the meeting. I recognized a few of you from 98. I didn't get a chance to meet nearly as many of you as I wanted to (there was some disagreement over reservation arrangements some of us had talked about prior to the Con). The meeting was different than I had envisioned -- great and fun, but different. Next year, I'll make sure there are more goodies for everyone -- and yes, we'll have a banner or something with the web address.

The Masters of the Azure trilogy was likewise very successful. All but the first event was full (Part One was only short one). It was great to see Scott Casper, Russell Timm, and Stéphane Tanguay at those events (Stephane is due dual credit for being drug into a Lejendary Adventures demo Friday night, where we all had a good time -- "MAY!!!!") Steve Wilson made it up from Oklahoma City to run the third installment -- missing his son's B-Day in the process (how's that for priorities? ;)

Scott Casper suggested I post a campaign synopsis of the trilogy online, which I thought was a very good idea. But we have also been approached by the organizer of a con in Omaha, who was interested in us running the game there. And since we're planning on bringing Masters of the Azure back for next year's GenCon (and yes, it will still be 2nd ed), I think we'll forgo that. Besides, I've been receiving lots of requests for copies and I've saved every one of them. Steve and I are going to get the adventures cleaned up for this October Omaha con, and once we're happy with it, we'll be sending out copies to those who requested it -- and to our two playtesters across the pond, of course!

So all in all, it was a big and exciting event for us and I hope those of you who attended our events had even more fun than we had. If not, I wanna know how we can make that so.

What we'd like to is hold a meeting sometime next week (I'm thinking Monday @ 9pm EST) for everyone to offer us feedback. It'll be held in our big and spacious chat room (, #GreyCouncil) and will be all about making next year 100% better than this one. I have some ideas of my own, as I'm sure the other officers do, but we're only a few small fish in a big pool. I'll make sure Keldreth sends out a set time once we get everything hammered out -- right now priority #1 is recovery and reading all the new stuff we blew our budgets on -- but there WILL be a meeting NEXT WEEK! So expect to hear something by Wednesday.

BTW, even if you didn't make GenCon this year, don't be shy. We wanna hear from everyone.

I hope I'll see all 2,000+ of you there. :D

One last thing before I close this off. Thanks to Nathan, Morgan and Steve for being there for the Thursday meeting -- it was great to have all of you there and I couldn't have done it without you (next year maybe we can talk Chris out of his shell for an appearance). And its always great to see Lisa Steven, resident mega-babe, hanging around with the rest of us. But none of us could have done it if it hadn't been for everyone who showed up.

So **THANK YOU** for making this GenCon so special for me and the rest of us officers. Its times like this when its all worth it.

Tom Harrison
Chairman, Council of Greyhawk

ps. in the interests of not crossposting, this message is only being posted here. If you have a Greyhawk buddy who refuses, or is unable, to subscribe to Greytalk, please forward this post to him.


See the OERTH JOURNAL at the Council of Greyhawk website:

BluSponge's Gray Matter Website (RANTS, 7th Sea, and Greyhawk SAGA)