Tuesday, July 20, 2010

Re: LG: The DoU capitulates

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] LG: The DoU capitulates
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:56:37 -0400
From: Samuel D. Weiss
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

>That's just it. From what I gather, the "Triads" don't really "produce"
anything and probably never will.<

By produce you must mean publish. You can't mean never write anything as we
sure as heck are writing quite a bit. And a good portion will be available
on the web sites the Triads will maintain.

>As for "growing" and becoming "better", I think the "Too many cooks,
spoil the broth." proverb will apply here. The end result will be
so bland as to be adventureless.<

How about "a pinch of this, a pinch of that" instead?
Greyhawk is huge. The original glossography had what, 500 words max on each
country with most coming in under half that? Maybe if someone had started
back when it first came out they might be able to show half of what the
Triads will develop for LG by this time next year. Not to mention the
intense difficulty of one person really making so many places unique and
individual. No, by having a different "cook" for each course of the LG meal
you will get a wonderful melange of tastes and flavors to suit even the most
discriminating palate.

Sam Weiss
Keoland Triad

Monday, July 19, 2010

Re: Greyhawk Timeline

From bramo@svg.na.no Wed Oct 25 07:46:39 1995
To: Gregory Bernath
Cc: greytalk@MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Greyhawk Timeline
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Length: 1065
X-Lines: 24
Status: RO

On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, Gregory Bernath wrote:

> Okay, here's the problem.
> Iuz was imprisoned under Castle Greyhawk from 505 - 570.
> The Battle of Emridy Meadows and the fall of the Temple was in 569.
> Yet _The Temple of Elemental Evil_ states that Iuz was free and
> active during the fall of the temple. So, we have a contradiction.
> In _Iuz the Evil_, we find that Iuz only learns of the fall of the
> Temple after his release. This would imply that TOEE is incorrect,
> and that Iuz was still imprisoned when the Temple fell.
> So, for the sake of continuity, you either have to remove Iuz's
> involvement in TOEE, or change the the dates around so that Emridy
> Meadows happens after the release of Iuz.
> Anyways, I was curious whether anyone has come up with any other
> solutions.

I pondered this one also, and I think I have come up with the solution:

The battle of Emridy Meadows and the fall of the Temple in CY 569 must have been THE FIRST fall of the temple. Since, in ToEE, the temple already has been sacked and Tzuggtmoy imprisoned.

Thursday, July 15, 2010

Chronomancy, Locations of Power, Hags, and Oerth

[greytalk] Chronomancy, Locations of Power, Hags, and Oerth
Friday, March 13, 2009 9:48 AM
From: "Aeolius"
To: "greytalk list"

In my campaign there is a night hag, Xaetra. Currently she is a spirit hag, inhabiting the dreams and nightmares of those she knew in life. It was foretold in an omen that she would one day return to life, before traveling far into the past. I have been mulling over ideas for such an event... I think perhaps in the future she traveled into the past to leave clues she might need. The first such clue is hidden in Turucambi, where my current campaign began. More on Xaetra here - http://web.me.com/aeolius/turucambi/Home/Entries/2009/1/21_The_Hubris_of_Hags.html

And now... the musings...

"Locations of power can be used for various purposes within a Dungeons & Dragons campaign. Some, such as the earth nodes described in the FORGOTTEN REALMS product Underdark, might serve as sites for the working of especially powerful magic. Others, such as the planar touchstones described in Planar Handbook, might unlock potential advancement opportunities or special abilities in characters. Still others, such as the rune circles described in Races of Stone, could allow PCs to create permanent magical effects bound to tightly confined areas. But as compelling as those ideas are, at least one interesting concept for magical locations remains unexplored - that of a location imbued with magicalpower that is available for the taking." - DMG II, pg. 235

"Evidence suggests that a group of Guardians-like chronomancers exists on Oerth, but little is known of them. The Codex of Infinite Planes has a cryptic reference to the Monitors of Infinity, "drawn from all places in Time," but this is the sum of the evidence. Chronomancers risk pursuit by the Monitors or by an avatar of a time-related deity if a major disruption of history occurs.
Two quasi-deities, Heward and Murlynd, are thought to be chronomancers or have time-travel powers from devices, psionics, or artifacts. Both have collected items from various periods in Earth history, and both have domiciles with multiple gate links across time and space to many worlds (see DRAGON(R) issue #71, pages 19-21, and module EX2 The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror.) The mad demigod Zagyg likely travels Temporal Prime, which is here usually called the Plane or Demiplane of Time; the demigod Vecna certainly knows of chronomancy.
The ancient Suloise-Baklunish conflict may have involved time battles between rival chronomancers. Istus (goddess of fate and destiny) is Baklunish; Lendor (god of time) is Suel. The outcome of such battles (if there were any), and any involvement of the Monitors or godly avatars, are unknown. Rumors circulate from time to time that small groups of hostile, destructive Suel wizards, often loners, appear in the Sea of Dust, either arising from magical suspended animation or arriving from chronomantic travel.
Chronomancy might also be known to elven wizards worshiping Labelas Enoreth, the elven deity of longevity, history, and time; to wizards of Boccob, the Oerik god of magic; and to wizards of Cyndor, the Oerik god of time, continuity, and infinity.
Chronomancers may wish to explore Tovag Baragu, the Stone Circles, whose arches sometimes open into Oerth's past. Some portions of Oerth's distant past appear to resemble our Earth's early Cenozoic period (the Age of Mammals) up to Pleistocene times. (See GREYHAWK Adventures, pages 98-99, and the adventure Vecna Lives!. Chronomancers should be warned that exploring Tovag Baragu might possibly lead to an alternate timeline of Oerth in which the demigod Vecna triumphs (as per the "Vecna Wins" scenario outlined on page 68 of Vecna Lives!. See also the potentially dangerous time-altering properties of the wildspace objects called The Sisters, in Oerth's crystal sphere of Greyspace (see Greyspace, pages 71-72).
There is speculation that the humans and centaurs who live near Tovag Baragu might have knowledge of some basic elements of chronomancy from their years of cautiously observing this artifact, though it is unlikely they openly practice this magic." - Chronomancy and the Multiverse, http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/chrono.rtf

"Tovag Baragu should be treated as an artifact, as described in the Dungeon Masters Guide. Its powers, and the times at which it is activated, depend on astronomical phenomena of Oerth. Each circle is linked to a particular moon or planet and operates only when it is visible in the sky. The actions of those in the circle at such times can affect the outcome, but player characters should not be permitted to learn all that is required for proper control. The most frequent full connection is to a Pleistocene setting. Whether the city seen represents the past or an alternate world or the future is up to the DM. Player characters might be allowed to gather the impression that Tovag Baragu maintains the Sea of Dust's present condition, but they ought not to be able to do anything about it until they
reach extremely high levels, if then. If the campaign includes the Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar which are described under Artifacts in the Dungeon Masters Guide, a number of interactions might be set up between it and Tovag Baragu. " - Greyhawk Adventures

"The wreck on the east side of Turucambi is of a clipper ship, such as was known on Earth in the 1800s. (Naturally, the characters will never have heard of such a thing.) Its cargo consisted of china plates and tea, now mostly ruined. Its origin is possibly extraplanar; it might hail from across the Oljatt or simply be unexplained, according to the needs of the campaign." - Greyhawk Adventures

"There is a ship made of metal, with no mast or oars, and charts of unknown seas." - Greyhawk Glossography, pertaining to the Jungle of Lost Ships

Friday, July 9, 2010

Re: Cats in Greyhawk

Re: [greytalk] Re: Cats in Greyhawk
Tuesday, March 24, 2009 11:31 AM
From: "Stefan Beate"
To: "Greytalk List"

To each his own, I guess. I like that book. Of course, some more stories could be told from that starting point: Is it really Turrosh Mak = Theg Narlot? Perhaps this is another case of wheels within wheels - this identification is a secret that can be found by diligent research and adventuring with quite some risk, but in truth it is just another ruse played expertly. So, most folks think that Turrosh Mak is a more or less random halforc from the free city, bent on gaining his own kingdom. For those "in the know" he is one of the old slavers. The "true" truth may be something else entirely - perhaps some force resurrected the mortal shell of Theg after the defeat of the slavelords, took over this shell and used it to defeat Turrosh Mak, who was really close to getting his own kingdom. Then this force assumed Turroshs identity to further confuse any keeping track of Theg Narlot and the slavelords, or it took over Turroshs mortal body. This force could be anything, from something out of the outer planes to an old suloise wizard whose consciousness was alive somewhere in the Drachensgrab mountains.


Chris Anderson schrieb:
> Well, I've never even skimmed the product. Turrosh Mak in my campaign is our lovable half-orc from Greyhawk city. He has no truck with Earth Dragons or the SB, although he is playing around with an alliance with the sahuagin to expand his control into the Sea of Gearnat and up into Wooly Bay.
> -- Chris
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:33 AM, Scott > wrote:
> Hi all,
> Stefan Beate wrote:
> > According to TSR 11621 (2000), Slavers, p 123, Turrosh Mak
> > IS indeed Theg Narlot. He survived and with the help of
> > Brother Kerrins contacts to the Scarlet Brotherhood and a
> > pact with the Earth Dragon managed to rise to power in the
> > Pomarj. Of course, this is only true uf you use the Greyhawk
> > 98 line of books in your game.
> You know, someday I'm going to do more than just skim that
> product. Theg Narlot just didn't look like a cat person to me in
> his module A4 illustration. What if the Earth Dragon used cats as
> intermediaries to communicate with, or spy on, Theg/Turrosh...?
> ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
> Yak-Men like keeping threads going so Greytalk doesn't go quiet
> again...

Monday, July 5, 2010

Re: FW: Ryan Dancey: WotC in Death Spiral

Re: [greytalk] FW: [ADND-L] Ryan Dancey: WotC in Death Spiral
Wednesday, April 15, 2009 5:58 PM
From: "Paul L. Ming"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com


I may be going out on a limb here, but I honestly saw this coming about a year ago. As soon as I heard that they had a new guy coming in to "drive the ship"...re:

Wizards of the Coast announces new President
Posted 2008-03-14 06:26:02 by JoyceGreenholdt

Joyce Greenholdt Reports: Wizards of the Coast Inc., subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. and leader in trading-card games, role-playing games, and shared-world fantasy fiction, today announced Greg Leeds as the new President of Wizards of the Coast.

Leeds is moving to Renton, Wash., following seven years at Hasbro where he headed up International Marketing and helped to develop Hasbro’s global brand management methodology. Prior to that he led Hasbro’s Boys group and had extensive experience in marketing, operations, and sales at both Samsonite and Procter & Gamble.

“Wizards is a fantastic game company with great opportunities to expand and enhance player communities around the world,” said Leeds. “I feel privileged to join the team and carry-on our culture of captivating gamers everywhere they want to play.”

After a distinguished 12-year career at Wizards of the Coast, Loren Greenwood is stepping down as President and CEO and leaving the company effective March 21."

...so...I figured "This guy doesn't sound like he 'gets' the RPG fans. He'll treat it like all the other products he's been marketing, not really understanding that an old module like, say X1: The Isle of Dread that was produced back in 1980, can be opened up and used in 4e without any serious problems.". In effect, RPG'ers main ability is their generally 'higher than average' IQ and imagination, as well as the nature of RPG's (that is, "Create your own stuff") pretty much does NOT support the huge business model that big companies like Hasbro use and expect.

In short, I see RPG's like art: you don't go into it expecting to get rich...you do it because you love it and it's who you are...if you can make a living on it, you should be damn proud. Hasbro was expecting D&D to "make oodles of cash", when all they really should have been thinking of is "As long as we can pay for our expenses, and give our employees a small raise, or catered staff party every year, we're golden." I think WotC/Hasbro are starting to see the light; that they can't really make 'oodles' of cash off RPG's like they can off Magic:The Gathering, or expansions to Cranium or theme-based Monopoly board games.

Heres an interesting link with Greg Leeds attempting to explain, to some degree, the decision to nix PDF's: http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/14726.html Sounds like he's trying to play the part of the gallant knight, protecting 'the poor, defenseless masses' from the Evil Pirate Horde. Awwww...how selfless and thoughtful of him. ;)


Paul L. Ming

Stefan Beate wrote:
I don´t think this is Hasbros doing - my guess would be that Hasbro sets the goals, and WotC strives to reach them. Reaching these goals will be hard, especially at the moment, and so the nervousness in WotCs management rises. A cornered animal lashes out blindly.

Friday, July 2, 2010

Re: Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors

Re: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
Tuesday, July 28, 2009 8:51 AM
From: "ozequeira@yahoo.com"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com
Cc: "Otto Zequeira"

Thanks for the replies. Guess the Isles of Woe from LG is out. Took out my copy of "Hand of the Revenant" and reread. Picked up a good tip from a Canonfire post to tie the other locations with the Tomb thematically or narratively.


May I share the posts here with Canonfire for more cross-fertilization?

Also, found the following locations in "Iuz the Evil" for the Howling Hills:

The Grouaning Mines
The Soul Husks Caverns
Spear Tor
The Swirlers
Wegwiur Thralls
Xanxeven Point

Otto Z.

Iuz, highest hill: ?
Island in the Nyr Dyv: Tzunk (adventure available?)
Bright Desert: Rary the Traitor (especially Sulm), Ghost Tower (Soul Gem with soul-stealing power like Acererak)
Duchy of Geoff: Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
Vast Swamp: Tomb
Island beyond Sea Barons: Turucambi or the Sinking Isle (Greyhawk Adventures)

--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Stefan Beate wrote:

> From: Stefan Beate
> Subject: Re: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
> To:
> Cc: "greytalk@canonfire.com >> Greytalk List"
> Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 12:33 PM
> Otto Zequeira schrieb:
> > You mentioned LG materials. I remember
> that there was a Tzunk-related adventure for LG. How
> may one obtain that?
> >
> >
> AFAIK, you can´t get them legally today. They were only
> available while they were current in the campaign. I guess
> that the rights stay with WotC/Hasbro, at least the parts of
> the stories with the GH brand recognition. IIRC, somebody
> said that it would be theoretically possible to republish
> them for the author if he removed any and all GH references
> from them. But this is from what I dimly remember reading
> somewhere. The gist of it was that it is too much trouble to
> be worth it. IIRC, some of the LG modules got very mixed
> critiques also.
> > Otto Z.
> >
> > Iuz, highest hill: ?
> I seem to recall a Dungeon adventure sometime during the
> last two years of the mags run which had a hill adventure
> with some connection to some demons, orcs and maybe snakes,
> but the details are hazy. From what I recall, it should
> roughly fit the theme. I´ll go looking for it.
> Stefan

Thursday, July 1, 2010

Re: Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors

RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:29 AM
From: "Creighton Broadhurst" Add sender to Contacts
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Hey Otto,

Sorry I got the wrong end of the stick. The Sinking Isle would be a cool link in to the Tomb of Horrors, but I don't think any published module has ever dealt with the area. I think a lot of adventure tie-in ideas depend on how old you decide the tomb is. I don't have my files here, but I don't recall any definitive date for the tomb's construction. Acererak could definitely have gained lost/forbidden knowledge from the Soul Gem and the Ghost Tower and by exploring many of the locations in the Bright Desert (I'm thinking of Darkbridge Temple and the Necropolis of Unnagh [sp] in

In regard to obtaining LG materials, there is no "legal" way left to do so. WoTC owns all the rights to all core adventures (and all other adventures and materials they paid for) and at this time I doubt they have any interest in releasing them.

Creighton Broadhurst
Check out my blog at Raging Swan
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."

-----Original Message-----
From: Otto Zequeira [mailto:ozequeira@yahoo.com]
Sent: 27 July 2009 14:48
To: greytalk@canonfire.com; Creighton Broadhurst
Cc: oteta@aol.com
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors

Hi Gents. Thanks for the replies.

Good idea, Greg, as to the Soul Gem being an inspiration for Acererak.

Creighton, to clarify, as I showed with the list below, I want to keep the Tomb in its original location, but simulate a search for the Tomb with some standalone adventures. You mentioned LG materials. I remember that there was a Tzunk-related adventure for LG. How may one obtain that?

Any other thoughts for stand-alone adventures in the areas below? Thanks again for the ideas.

Otto Z.

Iuz, highest hill: ?
> Island in the Nyr Dyv: Tzunk (adventure
> available?)
> Bright Desert: Rary the Traitor (especially
> Sulm), Ghost Tower (Soul
> Gem with
> soul-stealing power like Acererak)
> Duchy of Geoff: Expedition to the Barrier
> Peaks
> Vast Swamp:
> Tomb
> Island beyond Sea Barons: Turucambi or the
> Sinking Isle (Greyhawk Adventures)
--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Creighton Broadhurst wrote:

> From: Creighton Broadhurst
> Subject: RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
> To: greytalk@canonfire.com
> Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 6:51 AM
> RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of
> Horrors
> Hey all,
> It depends how old you want the tomb to
> be. I'm not sure how you would tie it into
> Expedition to the Barrier Peaks but placing it in the Bright
> Desert or an island beyond the Sea Barons would be
> funky. In the Bright Desert, it could tie into
> ancient Sulm dark practises or on the island
> beyond the Sea Barons it would probably be an old Flan
> site. In either event the tomb would probably be
> around 1500 - 2000 years old. If you go with the Tzunk idea
> the tomb would be really old IMO (although I don't have
> access to all my file to give an exact
> approximate date ;-( )
> With the Tzunk and Sea Barons idea there is
> a dearth of publishing material. If you
> shoot for the Bright Desert, DUNGEON published
> a couple of articles on the area and the D&D web site
> did have some additional articles. LG also produced a core
> module set around the Tomb (but this assumes it is
> in its "correct"
> location.
> Creighton Broadhurst
> Check out my blog at Raging Swan
> "You miss 100% of the shots you > don't take."
> -----Original
> Message-----
> From: Otto Zequeira [mailto:ozequeira@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 26 July 2009 17:31
> To: greytalk@canonfire.com; Otto Zequeira
> Subject: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
> Dear all:
> How are you? Hope you are doing
> well. My players have decided to go after what will
> turn out to be the Tomb of Horrors, though they don't
> know it yet.
> The original adventure listed alternative
> locations for the tomb. I thought it might be a good
> opportunity to tie in some adventures that they have not
> enjoyed yet.
> Any suggestions for the locations below,
> especially with good, published material, would be greatly
> appreciated. Thanks ahead of time.
> Otto Z.
> Iuz, highest hill: ?
> Island in the Nyr Dyv: Tzunk (adventure
> available?)
> Bright Desert: Rary the Traitor (especially
> Sulm), Ghost Tower (Soul
> Gem with
> soul-stealing power like Acererak)
> Duchy of Geoff: Expedition to the Barrier
> Peaks
> Vast Swamp:
> Tomb
> Island beyond Sea Barons: Turucambi or the
> Sinking Isle (Greyhawk Adventures)