Tuesday, November 17, 2009

Re: Infamy of Iuz (was 20 most well - known deities.)

Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 14:57:45 -0800
From: Marc Tizoc Gonzalez
Subject: Re: Infamy of Iuz (was 20 most well - known deities.)

MM invited:
> I would actually like my argument refuted here. Please reason well

IMC, the peasants of and low-level PCs in northwestern Furyondy referred to the leader of Iuz as the Old One. For the peasants, this being had ruled the lands beyond the Whyestil since before their grandparents' youth. For the PCs, this was the name that they were taught. Iuz was the name of the land that the Old One ruled. After a couple of levels, when a fool-hardy set of the PCs attempted to infiltrate the armies massing across the Veng river (in early 583 CY), then they learned from a particularly vicious man that he was a priest of the _god_, Iuz the Old. The PCs did _not_ know that Iuz was the Old One or a god before they listened to that priest's diatribe. IMO, Such specificity of information represents special knowledge.

Before the Invasion of Iuz, most Furyondians, Rovers of the Barrens, Shield Landers, or Wolf Nomads had heard that something named the Old One had once ruled the land called bounded by Whyestil Lake and the Howling Hills. Yet even by 576 CY, the fact that this Old One was the demonic "god" Iuz was _not_ popular knowledge. (Some folk tales from the beginning of the sixth Common century may have even included both characters in the same story.) It took the efforts of heroes in the service of the Wise to learn this secret, and the knowledge that Iuz was a cambion of Grazz'zt (sp?) and the witch-queen Igwiilv was known by even fewer people, such as the Circle of Eight or the individuals responsible for the sundering of the Old One's
imprisonment. We should remember that Iuz was only freed in 570 CY, so even by the eve of the GH Wars (582 CY), there are only a dozen years for the infamy of Iuz to be spread. The Flanaess lacks the Internet!

Of course, some people in the CoG learned about the power and identity of Iuz just before the war due to the activity of his Spurned Cult, but even in the Gem of the Flanaess, this knowledge is not known by every last beggar, bard, or apprentice.

The post-war situation is drastically different. At every Godsday sermon the churches of Heironeous, Mayaheine, St. Cuthbert, and Trithereon harangue against that powerful demonic despot of the north, Iuz. These declamations are especially intense just before (and during) the Great Northern Crusade. This is partially due to the subtle influence (strategy) of the churches of Rao and Delleb (or the Church of Voll), which decided that the public naming of Iuz (the Old) as a powerful demon was important to limit his power and the hysterical fear that his name could cause.

Similarly, the shamans of the Rovers or Wolf Nomads have named Iuz a powerful demon, one of a long line of bestial gods that dominate the legends of the north (a la Rip Van Wormer's Madlander gods). Of course, if we obey canon, then the remnant of Rovers may well believe that Iuz represents their teleology.

In the Empire of Iuz, the clergy have constantly proselytized the power of their god. Thus by 591 CY even on the eastern periphery of the empire, in the Bandit Kingdoms or occupied Tenha, almost everyone has repeatedly heard that Iuz the Old is a demon-god walking the Flanaess and seated at his throne in Dorakaa and seen demonstrations of the god's brutal power.

His priests have had at least twenty-one years since his freedom to establish their churches and cults. I say "at least" because I wonder whether there were priests devoted to Iuz during his imprisonment, such as High Priests Patch or Althea. When did he become a true demi-god? Was the faith of some cult partially responsible for his apotheosis? Did their sacrifices penetrate the demon-dreams of the Old One's imprisonment?

Marc Tizoc

RE: Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)Friday, November 13, 2009 2:03 PM
From: "CJ MacLean" Add sender to Contacts
To: "'greytalk'"

Here it is pg.70 Greyhawk Gem of the Flanaess

" But the bards serve a serious role as well, particularly in chronicling the day-to day life, and the grander historical march, of the Free City and its people."

I win!


From: kruch7@cox.net [mailto:kruch7@cox.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:49 AM
To: greytalk
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

What do you mean previously written, I see nothing previously written that says Greyhawk wouldn't have a new paper, and I know of no evidence of an army of bards roaming the city either as for town criers we do know they are in the city. If there is a reference some where that states there no possibility of a news sheet with all the scribes they have and magic users I will believe you. have to reread my gord the rogue books and see if there is a reference in them

Gygax is to Gaming What Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil then you
WWBYD What would Brigham Young do

Monday, November 16, 2009

Re: "Of Iuz and the Northern Reaches"

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] "Of Iuz and the Northern Reaches"
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:04:40 EDT
From: "Gary L. Holian"
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

>On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Gary R Welsh wrote:
>> I tend to agree that a blunder was made with regards to Iuz and the date of his rise....though it was an easy one to make since it didn't appear to contradict any other historical facts. Clearly
>> the year 479 CY was meant to be the date in which he expanded his empire, not the year he came onto the scene in the first place.
>Yep. That's what I thought too. And of your scenarios for the dating of Iuz' realm, I think only (1) is possible. According to S4, Iggwilv began her campaign of conquest "nearly a century ago," and subjugated the Marches of Perrenland for a decade (S4, p. 2). That would mean she
>disappeared at 486 at the absolute earliest -- probably later -- in any case after 479. That rules out scenario (2).

Ah, well that depends on numerous assumptions which are not clear cut:
1) The dating of the module S4
2) The dating of the WoG Guide (83)
3) The vagaries of history, and terms such as "nearly a century".

A common misconception about the booklets of the 83 boxed set is that their contents are generally dated to the year 576 CY, the year they were completed by the Savant-Sage in the Free City of Greyhawk. However, its apparent that they are only current to the year 573 CY...and while the sage completed the seven volume set 3 years later, the material is not current to that date, but only to the year of the disappearance of the Prince of Furyondy and the emergence of the Scarlet Brotherhood.
This is not uncommon in histories, where there is a lag between what is current and when it is published.

S4 could have been set anytime in the 570's, realistically speaking, though we know it must have predated the events in Isle of the Ape which are generally dated somewhere between 576-579. Using all of this leeway, its possible to contruct a history whereby Iggwilv's empire fell and Iuz emerged in the north nearly simultaneously. However, I agree that scenario 1) is far more likely since we know that Iggwilv's magic was instrumental in Iuz's rise. It was probably the intention of Iggwilv and Iuz to expand their realm, and with the witch's magic, the cambion emerged from the Howling Hills a force and took Dorakaa. Apparently, they had some falling out and Graz'zt was loosed, forcing Iggwilv into a battle which reduced her powers dramatically, banished the Demon Lord for a century, and ended her

>> I think it is pretty obvious that his name is due in no small part to his decrepit
>> appearance whilst
Of course, people might call him old because he *looks* old. But I think that he really *is* old -- ancient even. I gave the reasons in an earlier post (i.e. the quotes from the Guide and AoE which clearly establish Iuz as "centuries old").

Well, we don't know how old...but we do know that he looks old, ancient even. I sympathize with your desire to restore Iuz to his original depiction, but I think if we're going to be Monatic* about things, we're stuck with the fact that he didn't rule in the north for centuries, whatever his true age...and quotes from the guide notwithstanding (the puffery of an old sage. ;-) Clearly, it was not known why Iuz pulled back in 505 CY and the fact that the land was ruled in his name by a proto-Bonehart is not distinguishable, his evil festered (indeed his Spurned Cult received power and spread across the Flanaess over the intervening decades.) There only appeared to be an ebb in the expansion of his empire, which resumed anew when the master was back in residence. To assert he only ruled 32 years would be a quibble without teeth, since his status wouldn't have been commonly known...roads were still being paved in skulls apace.

*Monaism asserts the primacy of canon and exhorts its practioners to find the most consistent and ingenious method to satisfy all sources. Not to be coonfused with "Hep Monatics", sufferers of a rare jungle disease involving burrowing insects.


Re: Of Iuz and [Castle Greyhawk]

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Of Iuz and [Castle Greyhawk]
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:57:31 -0700
From: Chris Anderson
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Hmmm... I envision them differently. To me, the Soul Husks are a method of drawing off power from a set of individuals that is used to elevate Iuz to Lesser God status. Something like a set of batteries that super-charges him.

I also have thought about the connection between what Zagyg did, and the Soul Husks. It strikes me that Iuz learned, through personal experience in Castle Greyhawk, a method of short-circuiting the usual "gain worshippers and power" method of ascending from demi-god to Lesser God.

I've decided that Zagyg used the demi-gods as "filters" for power that he poured into them from elsewhere, and that without those filters, his mortal body would have been destroyed in his attempt to gain demi-god status. With the filters, he was able to power up safely. Acting as "filters" also powered up many of the 9 demi-gods to lesser god status.

Having said that, I am divided on whether or not Iuz has to replace his batteries periodically (implying a continuous feed of power from the Husks, which has a further implication of gradual decay if they are not replaced regularly), or whether the initial magic which powered him is now embedded within him. I sort of like the idea of him having to guard the Soul Husks because if they were "disturbed" his stolen power would flow back into them. As I've said, I'm torn.

IMC, I've left rumors of powerful individuals disappearing from time to time. Just in case I go that way.

Chris Anderson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Casper [mailto:scvolstagg@NETSCAPE.NET]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 12:33 PM
> To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Of Iuz and [Castle Greyhawk]
> Hi again!
> Eric Van wrote:
> >While I already knew this part, have you figured out how this translates to the secret of the Soul Husks Caverns in Iuz the Evil?
> Hmm...maybe you should talk to Noel "Worships Sargent" Graham about that. I don't own half of Carl Sargent's material for GREYHAWK, and take the other half with a
> spoonful of salt. I would guess, however, that the Soul Husk is an "anchor" that connects the half-demon Iuz to the Prime Material Plane so Dispel Evil and the like
> won't work on him. I don't think it has to do with his ascension to godhood.
> >Also, do you use all the rules for demigods found in Legends and Lore for Iuz?
> The '83 boxed set gave demi-gods even more special abilities than Deities & Demigods did. I don't see why Iuz wouldn't get them all.
> Scott "Volstagg" Casper
> Yak-Men think soul husks taste like chicken...

DMD: Witchfire stones

Date sent: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:29:22 -0700
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Chris Anderson
Subject: [GREYTALK] DMD: Witchfire stones

Since I've seen some posts on the Ghost Tower of Iverness, I thought that I would post my material on the “witchfire stones”. These are a set of artifacts which I designed that include the Soul Gem. It was my intent to make the Soul Gem part of a group of artifacts, rather than existing by itself.

In my campaign, the party managed to recover three of these gems before internal tensions (caused by the gems) tore them apart. These were created early in my career as a DM, so you'll notice that they are a bit unpolished... :-)

My standard disclaimer:

I specifically forbid the WoGFC, or any of its members, to use this material in any of their publications. The rest of you are free to use it in any manner that you see fit, as long as you maintain a reference to the author.

The Witchfire Stones

The Witchfire Stones were first created during the time of the Suloise Empire. At least five of the seven known stones were enchanted during that time. Most accounts agree that many wizards were involved in their creation and design, although at least two were created after the Rain of Colorless Fire by Galap-Dreidel and Vecna. It is unknown whether they independently reinvented the concept, worked from written descriptions, or had a stone to copy.

After the Rain of Colorless Fire, the stones were lost and nearly forgotten. Certain tomes mention them in passing, so it is possible that they resurfaced during the long years following the fall of the Suloise Empire. There are rumors that the Soul Gem has resurfaced recently in the County of Urnst, but this has not been proven.

Common Powers

The Witchfire Stones all have the same common properties:

User gains 25% magic resistance while the stone is on their person
Two stones, acting in concert, can create a permanent “gate” between them
User can use any of the stone's powers through a crystal ball
User becomes more and more protective f the item (see DMG for details)

Each stone has an alignment, and will attempt to change the users alignment to match. This is determined by checking the stone's ego against that of the players, just as an intelligent sword. Each failed check will move the players alignment one step closer to that of the stone.

In addition, all of them can be affected by the following:

Any stone can be rendered inactive for 1-4 weeks by a successful Dispel Magic vs. 25th level magic. During this time, they cannot be used.

All powers operate at 25th level unless otherwise noted.

The Hearth Stone (Red)

Location: Depths of the Nyr Dyv (in Vecna's castle)
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Ego: 22

This pulsating fiery red gem is uncut, and exceedingly beautiful. It is the size of a large mans fist. It's radiance extends 30' at all times.

It's powers are:
[insert missing page]
User does not age
Cast a Timestop which lasts 2 rounds 1/day
Cast a Temporal Stasis 1/week
Charm (-4 on saving throws) at will

Those who spend time in the radiance of the gem, who are not the user, will age 10 times as quickly. Any magic item which slows or erases aging will be destroyed if taken into the radiance of the gem (potions of longevity, etc.) Any effect which induces aging (a ghost, for example) will have 10 times the effectiveness.

The Heartstone can only be destroyed by throwing it into the flames of an arising Phoenix.

The Twister (Green)

Location: The Suloise City in the Suss Forest
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Ego: 20

This cut, glowing, green gem is about one foot across by two feet long. It is cut in the fashion of a rectangular, beveled, plate. It’s powers are:

Polymorph Self at will
Dispel Magic at will
Polymorph Others 3/day
Shape Change 1/day

All those inimical to the jewel must save vs magic each round spent in its radiance or be inflicted with with a random lycanthropy. Is someone already infected with lycanthropy fails their saving throw, then they fall under the command of the user of the jewel for 1-3 days.

The jewel may only be destroyed by being bathed in the life blood of a *willing* sacrifice.

Mindfire Gem (Amber)
Location: Somewhere in the Sea of Dust
Alignment: Neutral Good
Ego: 25

This stone is an uncut gem about 2” in diameter which glows with a restful amber light. The last records of it indicate that it was set into the pommel of a magical bastard sword. It's powers are:

The stone confers psionics (150 ps) to any who claim it, along with two major, and four minor disciplines. If the bearer already has psionics it adds 150 to their current strength and gives an extra major and minor discipline. All psionics are performed at a level of mastery 4 levels higher than normal (ie if someone who did not have psionics previously claims this gem, they will be granted psionics at 1st level. While using the gem, they will perform all psionics at 5th level. Should they not be in possession of the gem, their psionics will revert back to 1st level)

The Mindfire Gem may only be destroyed by casting it into the River Lethe.

The SeaStone (Blue)

Location: The Hold of the Sea Princes
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Ego: 24

This glowing blue sphere is about 6” in diameter. It is uncut and unusually heavy – at least 50-60 pounds. It's current owner has set it into the center of a heavy table so that the upper half of it extends above the surface of the table. It's powers are:

No creature of the sea may harm the bearer
Water Breathing, on command, which lasts for 1 week
Weather Summoning 3/day
Charm Sea Creature (-4 to saving throw) 1/turn
Calms the sea on command in a one mile radius

Those who spend much time in the glow of the stone will gradually be changed into a deathless merman. Once the change is complete, the merman will fall under the command of the owner of the stone. Once the owner changes, he/she will immediately take the stone and disappear into the nearest ocean, there to hide and guard the stone.

It can only be destroyed by casting it into the Elemental Plane of Fire.

The BaneStone (Yellow)

Location: Somewhere in the Great Kingdom
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Ego: 20

This stone is about 3” across, and is uncut. It glows with a soft yellow light, which prickles on the skin. Ancient records are unclear, but it was apparently set into something, possibly a necklace or the end of a staff. It's powers are:

Bestow Curse at will
Know Alignment
Cause Serious Wounds on touch
Finger of Death 1/day
“Decree” 1/year

All who are bathed in it's rays cannot be healed by any magical means. All wounds caused in its presence cannot be healed by magic, and heal at the rate of 1hp per week. The user is subject to “withering” (as a staff of withering, on a random extremity) each time the “Decree” is used. The BaneStone can only be destroyed by the direct touch of Pelor.

(DM's Note: A “Decree” is an 11th level spell similar to a wish, but of more powerful nature. This is a spell developed by the Suloise, that can only be used by a Suloise Mage of Power).

Re: Greyhawk Grumbler

Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler
Monday, November 16, 2009 10:37 AM
From: "Chris Anderson"
To: "Mark Carscadden" Cc: "greytalk"

Just so we're clear... the first printing presses were simply weights pressing wood block type down onto paper. I think that's well within Greyhawk's technical base.

Later on, the screw was introduced... so that you could screw a flat plate down against the woodblock, against the paper.

-- Chris

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Mark Carscadden wrote:

I think a printing press is something that would be a better fit in the FR setting, IMO. Gygax would have certainly at least briefly mentioned something as significant as a printing press if it existed in his setting. But as always, that's the way it will be in MY Greyhawk campaign...
----- Original Message -----
From: Wade Nolen
To: 'greytalk'
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Insisting that the print run of the Grumbler is more than the population of the Free City of Greyhawk itself is the utmost sheer folly.

And beyond that … the “single guy” is doing the same thing in CoGH … no one said that these things are everywhere. No one said that there are more than just the Grumbler (although we know that there are two.) This is a localized thing, specific to Greyhawk City, and what’s more, there’s nothing (of which I am aware, other than the author’s post-script here) that it’s not wood-block printing, or something other than the “mechanized” stuff that you insist on. There were printing presses long before Industrialization or the Mechanized era.

Wade K. Nolen
aka "Icarus "

I'm off to gallivant among the clouds!
" ... and he did fly, and he was seen on the wings of the wind."

From: CJ MacLean [mailto:icar@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:57 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I'm not talking about a single guy with bits of clay producing 20 copies of something. I am talking about the level of mechanization society has to have for a press run of 5000-30,000 (or more).

From: Vest III, Robert W [mailto:rvest@ius.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:15 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

There is actually a canonical precedent for having printing presses in the Flanaess. See the Age of Worms backdrop article on Alhaster (Dungeon 131), which mentions an underground broadsheet in Alhaster called The Sinchaser Report.

Saturday, November 14, 2009

Re: "Of Iuz and the Northern Reaches" (HSNR)

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] "Of Iuz and the Northern Reaches" (HSNR)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:28:07 -0400
From: St├ęphane Tanguay

Hi all !

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Gary L. Holian

What does (HSNR) stand for ?

>Two notable exceptions, are the portions which later came together as the cantons of Perrenland (in 400 CY), and the Archbarony of Blackmoor (which apparently was so cut-off from the rest of the
>Flanaess that when the revolutions sundered the Great Kingdom, it was largely forgotten.) Fred Weining (Psychlops) has an interesting aside in his Blackmoor piece in the Oerth Journal which comments how
>the land eventually disappeared from imperial maps.

Is it from Psychlops's work that you got the info that put Blackmoor under Dyvers "supervision" at a time or is there a canon source somewhere that I've missed? Others (Gary R. Welsh) have the Archbarony at odds with Iuz.


>Remember that what is considered the Horned Society now, was simply a part of the loose collection of largely flannish bandit realms we now refer to as the Bandit Kingdoms, indistinguishable from the
>rest. Iuz swept threw those bandit kingdoms between the Veng and Ritensa (sometime between 479 and 505 CY) taking Molag (where the Heirarchs picked up the pieces during his absence.)

It is the second or third time that I see mentions of this invasion of the HS by Iuz at some point in the past but again, I can't find the canon source for this.

I always tought the Horned Society was a loose collection of largely humanoid territories that was organized by some bandits lords (Hierarchs) only after Iuz disappearance.

>1) Iuz made his move during his mother's reign to the southwest. This could have been part of a plan to strike in two parts of the "Northern Reaches", then unify the realm by decimating
> the Highfolk between them while Furyondy was distracted by events in the south. He would have had direct assisstance from her in pulling off his plan, which fell through when Graz'zt
> was loosed and he was on his own. Apparently, he also had some falling out with Iggwilv.

I would go with this option. It would be consistent with what can be found in Rot8. I kind of like seing Iuz and his mother "help" each other. I now just have to find a reason why Iuz appeared to have been adopted as an infant by a flan chieftain while there is many signs he should be older at that time (479 CY). Just a disguise ? Trying to hide his demonic features ? Was it a way to keep an eye on his lands while being away helping mom ?

For myself, I'd like to have Iuz being born around 213 CY, adventuring here and there for a while (notably in the Thillorian peninsula), acquiring some of his knowledge as a cleric and assassin (thanks to Gary R. Welsh for most of these ideas) then come back around Whyestyl Lake and start to build his own fief (circa 300 CY). For years, he battle against the northern nomads and other minor desposts, both Flans and Oeridians. Not able to accomplish much, he renew contact with his mother and agree to leave his fief for a while (circa 470 CY), to make himself forgotten. He help his mother in her research. In 475 CY, Iggwilv have him disguise his demonic features as an infant and be adopted by his "father". He is able to observe his future opponents while waiting for his mother to acquire sufficient powers to help him. This happens in 479 CY. Iuz's "father" is then put to death and Iuz reveal itself, with a lot of new powers.

Here's a rough timeline, based on many sources amongst which Gary R. Welsh and Paul Stormberg post have played an important role in shaping my ideas. I hae incorporated Drelzna and Graz'zt into it, as they are somewhat indissociable:

213 Iuz is born. Age of Great Sorrows begin.
230 Iuz start his adventuring career
300 Iuz start to build his own fief around the Howling Hills
460 Iggwilv consorts with several Perrenland Flan chieftans
462 Iggwilv found the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth
465 Drelnza is born
466 Graz'zt is captured by Iggwilv
467 Iggwilv renew contact with her son and begin concocting a plan to conquer the Northen Reaches
470 Iuz "disappear" from his fief.
475 Iuz, disguised as an infant, is adopted by a Flan chieftain of the Howling Hills
479 Iuz's "father" died. With help from Iggwilv's magic, Iuz's might grow. Perrenland and Furyondy attention's are turned toward Iuz, failing to see Iggwilv preparations.
480 Iggwilv embark on her conquest of Perrenland. Drelnza serves as General of Iggwilv's forces.
481 Perrenland is conquered
491 Graz'zt tricks Drenlza into freeing him. In the ensuing battle, Drelnza is killed, Graz'zt is forced to flee to the Abyss for a century and Iggwilv is stricken. The empire of Iggwilv collapse. With her remaining power she hide her treasures in the Lost caverns. Drenlza is interred with these and Iggwilv, who had both pity and hatred for her, kept her from both death and life.

Also note:
591 Graz'zt is free to leave the Abyss

I really like Gary R. Welsh's suggestion of having Iuz be reared and adventuring in the northen barrens. It does explain how he acquire a lot of his knowledge, how later he was able to put up this Vatun construction, how he acquire his soul husks, etc. It also give us opportunities to have him meet with some others luminaries of Greyhawk. Such a background for Iuz seem quite greyhawkish to me.

>but by his disappearnce in 505 CY, he was already being treated as a god by his followers.

Did he ? I tought he became a demi-god while being kept captive under Greyhawk Castle (although how can this be possibly happening is beyond me).


St├ęphane Tanguay

Re: The Isles of Woe

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] The Isles of Woe
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:35:46 -0400
From: "d.k. tetreault"
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

On Mon, 21 Jun 1999, Scott Casper wrote:

> Denis "Maldin" Treteault wrote us a lovely story about the Isles of Woe this morning.

Why, thank you. ;-)

> It is quite clear that both the Isles,

For those not on the "other" GH list, my post was in reply to a query for information on the subject from Sir Clarence, and not spontaneous.

> and Keldreth's safety, are important to him.

Not really. ;-) I just used Roger's mention of Keldreth in GH:TAB as a way to poke a little fun at all the flamewars that Kel seems to be invariably embroiled in. ;-)

> Why does it necessarily follow that Yagrax couldn't have constructed something that led to the destruction of his kingdom? This seems entirely consistent with how powerful magic works, as anyone who's had their flesh or clay golems turn on them can attest.

The 1st Edition DMG states clearly that Yagrax "discovered" the tome, and hence it existed prior to that time. I was just searching for a story-telling way to say it, rather than "the DMG says....bla bla". I DO agree with you that arcane creations do get away from their creators in a variety of possible ways... its just not the case in this example. As a wizard himself, perhaps Maldin "chooses" to believe that this almost never happens. ;-) [Yes... Maldin has had "accidents" before! ;-)]

> And when will you reveal your reasoning for this? Do you assume Vecna's tower must be further west to be closer to Tovag-Baragu (sp?)? Perhaps you underestimate the size of Vecna's empire.

Ah, well.... That would not be me. Tovag was a tool he used in Vecna Lives, but as far as I am concerned he has no birthright to or natural affinity with Tovag. Its my own personal belief (from the majority of info available from Vecna Lives) that his empire was centered in, and should be limited to, the Sheldomar Valley. Your mileage may vary. And please...people DON'T have to point out that all the info can be taken different ways depending on which conflicting lines you choose to believe. One thing IS certain.... there is nothing (other than GH:TAB) that even suggests Vecna had ANY relationship to the Isles of Woe.

As for the line about "other research", I had a two-fold purpose. One was to poke a little fun at the numerous lively discussions we've all had in the past about Vecna's details. The other is something that I (Denis) REALLY can't reveal just at this time because of other promises. But stay tuned! Suffice it to say that some mysteries will be resolved once and for all. ;-) Ok... I'm teasing just a bit. ;-)

> You also curiously failed to mention that the Isle of Woe sank because it lacked proper canals...

Strange, that. ;-) Don't know HOW that could have happened.

> Yak-Men -- building the canals to a better future.

Everyone knows that if the Yakmen were to be given stewardship of the canals, they would quickly fill them up with yakturds.

Re: Humanoids in Greyhawk

Priority: Normal
Date sent: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:16:22 -0400
Send reply to: Keith Horsfield
From: Keith Horsfield
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Humanoids in Greyhawk
Originally to: “GailnRoger@aol.com”

Hi Roger,

I hope you don't mind me sharing this with the GreyTalk list.

>The comments in the 1980 gaz don't rule out humanoids in the Flanaess,

Well, when parsing 17 year old text meant for gaming purposes and not scholarly research (though some of us go that far) nothing is ever ruled out.

>It is logical that they were there, causing trouble for the Flannae
>and demihumans.

It may be logical in the 'normal' fantasy world, but given several factors I plan on viewing it differently.

1) The Flannae racial make-up just does not strike me as one that has had to deal with much physical strife prior to the migrations. They were easily subjugated (or pushed aside) by the influx of the oerdians and the suel not to mention the warring bands of humanoids.
2) The passages that I mentioned earlier just strike me almost superfluous if there were humanoids already present in the Flanaess east of the mountains (see below). The timeline though sparse makes a point that humanoids were used as mercenaries. Why? This can go without saying unless there was some other import. The passages then emphasize that the humanoids drive the oeridians forward into the Flanaess and then that the hordes fragmented. This implies that the hordes spread out and populated the Flanaess. The only word not used in conjunction with this movement of hordes of humanoids is 'migration'.

FWIW, I'm actually thinking of running a campaign on the following premise:

Timeframe: Prior to the Oeridian, Suel and humanoid migrations. Probably well before, like -5 FT.

Setting: It will be a rather idyllic setting with no humanoids. Faerie/sylvan folk oriented with a heavy accent on celtic myth and the sidhe. The Flannae will either be in their own bronze or iron age.

Conflict: Elf vs. Flannae (man)

Premise: The Flannae were not always such a peaceful nature loving folk and could have repulsed the migrations of the Oeridians, Suloise and humanoids if only they had not been totally subjugated by the elves in a long forgotten war which decimated the Flannae civilization and forced them into a culture of small tribes/clans.

Consequences: Why is there no remaining animosity between the elves and Flannae?

1) This was happened in the far distant past. The very fact it happened prior to the migrations puts it 1,000 years ago. If we were to use this war as the starting date for Flannae calendar we are now talking almost 3,000 years ago. Elves may remember the war and the consequences, but not mere mortal humans.
2) The positives that came out of the subjugation by the elves.

Initially, resistance would be high. But over time the culture of the [missing word?] relation on how to live with the world around the flannae (I.e. nature) take the sting out of losing. Over time as the Flannae adapt the the cultural morals of the elves to their own system of beliefs, history would be rewritten. Here is the beginnings of the 'Old Faith.' With such a [missing word] and the new ethics within the flan culture, harboring animosity towards their own saviors (though this part would probably be forgotten and rewritten so that someone of their own kind came up with the idea) would be counterproductive to their new way of life.

>There just happened to be a lot of them in the Yatils/Barrier
>peaks/Crystalmists chain, and they were suitable for mercenary work if
>you weren't picky. However, they were more trouble than they were
>worth in the long run.

Granted. I was overreaching in my arguments and now have revised them so that humanoid populations were no further east than the barrier mountains (I use this term to include the Yatils, Barrier Peaks, Crystalmists and Hellfurnaces). Why no further east? Those darn pesky demi-humans knew a good thing when they saw it and did their utmost to guard the barrier mountains from incursions.

>I think the Oeridians originally lived around Ull, but abandoned it
>due to pressure from humanoid armies of the Baklunish. The Oeridians
>probably didn't get along with the Baklunish, either.

Hmm, not satisfied here. I understand when looking at the migration pictures in the published material that the oeridians are shown as starting from an area around Ull. But, the closest country with any oeridian blood in it is Ket (see Ref Card #2 FtA) and Ket is along the migration route of the oeridians. I envisioned the Oeridians moving through the Dry Steppes from somewhere to the west. Reasoning. The Dry Stepps prior to the Invoked Devastation were populated by Baklunish and Horse Barbarians. Placing the oeridians in a geographical position surrounded by the baklunish would only make them a subculture of the Baklunish. Something I think we can both agree that they are not.

Also, the relative newness of the oeridian calendar, i.e. 260 OR when the Baklunish-Suloise wars begins, implies that some major event happened relatively recently (when compared to the other human cultures). One theory could be the beginning of the actual oeridian migration from points farther west due to their own catastrophe.

Oeridians of that time period, the Baklunish-Suloise wars and migrations, were also said to have very powerful magics. Yet when we talk about the areas just west of the barrier mountains and look at the published material invariably we are only dealing with either ancient Suloise or Baklunish cultures. This says to me that the oeridians came from farther west.

Lastly, I would like to thank you for your response to this and feedback I've been sending. I know my feedback has been quite blunt at times, but I will strive to offer solutions to any criticisms I may have least well thought out reasoning why my opinion differs.

Keith Horsfield
Member Team OS/2
“To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail”
E-mail: afn09454@afn.org
Home page: http://www.afn.org/~afn09454
Brought to you by OS/2

Re: Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)
Friday, November 13, 2009 12:20 PM
From: "CJ MacLean"
Add sender to Contacts
To: "'greytalk'"

I am pretty sure that newspapers weren't used until the 17th century, does this fit well with the material previously presented?

The number of scribes it would take to produce this material versus the cost of the paper 1cp/issue and the cost of a scribe is 15gp/month is prohibitive. The cost of the paper (papyrus et. al) per sheet is more than the 1cp price of the paper. The cost of using magical spells to do this is also prohibitive versus the cost of a paper. No one would be able to afford a paper if it were created using the rules of any version of D&D.

Apart from these obvious complaints. The idea of printing presses has never been shown in any published material despite some great detail of Greyhawks locations.


From: kruch7@cox.net [mailto:kruch7@cox.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:49 AM
To: greytalk
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

What do you mean previously written, I see nothing previously written that says Greyhawk wouldn't have a new paper, and I know of no evidence of an army of bards roaming the city either as for town criers we do know they are in the city. If there is a reference some where that states there no possibility of a news sheet with all the scribes they have and magic users I will believe you. have to reread my gord the rogue books and see if there is a reference in them

Gygax is to Gaming What Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil then you
WWBYD What would Brigham Young do

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:40 PM, CJ MacLean wrote:
I am sure some people have loads of horseless carriages, gun powder, and teenage mutant ninja turtles, it doesn't mean that it fits with what has previously been written. As I said I am not commenting on the ideas presented, only in the concept of a newspaper in the world of Greyhawk.

Did you have something you wanted to add to this topic?


From: kruch7@cox.net [mailto:kruch7@cox.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:44 AM
To: greytalk
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

every one has their own vision of greyhawk city, even Gary imagined it different them most run it

Gygax is to Gaming What Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil then you
WWBYD What would Brigham Young do

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:36 AM, CJ MacLean wrote:
There are many reasons why they shouldn't be canon, and none of them have to do with the content. The Grumbler is whimsical and kind of cute but I have issues with the concept. The city of Greyhawk shouldn't have printing presses, or armies of scribes, or magical devices to mass produce newspapers. The idea of a newspaper is a way to get information to players in the RPGA but is not legitimate for a medieval fantasy setting. Town criers, bellmen, bards or bulletin board postings are more in keeping with the setting.

While a good portion of the city is literate a larger portion of it is not. Why can't the Greyhawk Grumblers be a group of bards? a printing press sets a bad precedent.


From: Samuel Weiss [mailto:samwise1@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

>Those Greyhawk grumblers aren't for real (canon) are they?<

Why wouldn't they be?