Tuesday, November 3, 2020

Suloise vs Baklunish

 From: Allen [gargoyle@GVI.NET]

Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 4:35 PM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] (Suloise vs Baklunish)

>While I am sort of on this Suloise kick--what makes anyone think the current batch of barbarians found on the Thillonrian Peninsula have anything to do ith their ancient Suloise forefathers ( or fore-mothers if you follow the matriarchal lineage idea), or in any way but the most crude resemble the vikings of Old Earth?

My own take on this has been that the Thillornian Penn. was inhabited by a minor race when the seul refugees made it there. Through various conflicts, politics, etc., the two peoples merged into one, retaining mostly cultural elements of the original race and the reiligion and appearance of the seul. Not perfect, but it works ...

> They were the ragged remains of a people that first invaded what is now the Yeomanry and Keoland. After consecutive drubbings they ended up in lands no one else either owned or wanted. So some questions I have ...

> Who taught them about boats? I haven't a clue on this one.

> Would they even bother with a batch of deities that more-or-less failed to prevent the downfall of one of the greatest empires the Oerth has ever seen? Llerg, yes! Maybe even Norebo. But Braim, Beltar, Lydia, and Lendor, probably not. I don't see mages as having real high status among the Thillonrian barbarians--magery was equally responsible for everyone on the sub-continent hating them with a passion. So Wee Jas probably wouldn't have a real big following their either. You might be able to give Xerbo, Phyton, Phaulkon, and Furtubo more "macho" aspects. Rough them up a bit and give them a cruder, less subtle edge. Kord needs to become more than just the god of sports. IMC he has a very strong storm aspect (sort of the Stormbull of the north, ala RQ). Pyremius (the poisonous dwarf) and Syrul (his lying mom) are just deities of those sour old folks who remember the good old days when the Suloise enslaved everyone and sacrificed them on bloody altars.

> How did such a decadent culture (as the Suel Dominion) lend itself to survival in the frozen north? It probably didn't. I would say they probably copied the survival techniques and society of some other unnamed (possibly Flani) culture already living in the area. Maybe they intermarried, maybe they didn't. Maybe they were just successful enough to overwhelm the natives, subjugate them and maintain a few of the Old Ways.

> Anyway, just a few thoughts on what many folk take to be assumptions.

>--Chris Jarvis

My list of deities for the Thillornian barbarians is likewise different from the standard seul - I include many norse or norse-like deities.

Oeridian Origins

 From: Noel Graham [vision.at.work@JUNO.COM]

Sent ; Saturday, November 21, 1998 2:14 PM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Oeridian Origins (was AGGHHHAA!!!!)

Now, imagine if the Oeridians were once an evolved culture from the region now known as the Land of Black Ice. After some cataclysmic event, most of the survivors were forced into a nomadic role. Perhaps some small facet of their culture, much defeated, even alien by current standards, remains in Blackmoor. Or, perhaps Blackmoor developed from a rival or subjugated/subservient (formery dependent?) culture making use of the remains (or dealing proximately with them).

The Oeridians may have had an advanced seafaring aspect, based around the Drawmidj. Upon the destruction/internal collapse of their society, they moved south and west along the coast into what is now the Baklunnish lands. Of course, some traveled even more south or east, but this discussion focuses on the coastal migrations.

Start with the Baklunnish indeed inhabiting the southerly realms of what today is said to be old Suel lands (Sea of Dust) and some amount of the Dry Steppes. Bring the Suel in from the SW and into conflict with the Baklunnish. This cultural clash, both militarily, magically, and philosophically (including religion) continues as the Suloise invaders press the Baklunnish ever northward.

The B. resist conquest, but the struggles are as much interrupted by the need for commerce to support the agricultural/lifestyle alterations occurring as part of the movements. Still, the enmities are deeply founded. After the eventual conflict of the Rain of Colorless Fire/Invoked Devastation, the B. are driven in whole northward to the Drawmidj coast.

During this time, the B. also came into conflict with the Oeridians. These embittered nomads had not the strength to resist the B. with some even becoming mercenary forces in the B./S. conflicts. Other tribes of the O. were absorbed into the B., with only the Uli retaining any significant territory unto itself. Over the course of events the momentum of the O. flow westward becomes reversed, sending what portion that retains its cultural/racial identity back into the Flanaess. There, they are followed, at least in some small part, by the B. (who pretty much stop at the Yatils).

The migratory chart of the races found in the '83 Guide (p. 10) is only partially accurate, then, as it does not reflect the "total" movements of the Oeridians and attempts to retrofit their presence south of the Burneal Forest by saying they expanded their population, while still being turned back by the Flannae (what? near) the modern (pre-Wars) Rovers holdings.

It seems far more likely the Oeridians integrated with the Flan inhabitants of the region to create the Chakyik and Wegweir. Still, the text (for the Wolf Nomads, at least) claims these nomads are of B. extraction, verily overlooking the equal O. presence indicated by the p.10 migrations map. For the purposes of explanation, consider that this quantification has been done relatively recently in Flanaess history.

Assuming the some amount of the O. did become racially absorbed by the B. moving northward (perhaps some were already present when the O. got there) from the south, this racial confusion is to be expected. The '83 box gave me a fit on this point when I first read it (oh, long enough ago). The O. were being characterized by their pure-blood appearance, which the cross-breeds didn't possess. The B. were being given credit for the rest, seemingly for no more reason than their historically recent presence west of the Yatils (they're nearby).

My apologies for not being more detailed (but not less long-winded ::smile::). I posted more elaborate explanations back at the beginning of the year, but they were generally overlooked then. Assuming my way of making things terribly complex is actually of interest to folks, I'll try to compile more of it together in the coming months for posting. (I say months because the holiday seasons are virtually upon us, and y'all know what a bear it is to work during them, and because of other projects *demanding* my time.)

Placing GH legends in chronology

 From: Mark Barazzuol [markb@intergate.bc.ca]

Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 11 :36 AM

To: 'greyhawk@MPGN.COM'

Subject: RE: [GREYHAWK] - Placing GH legends in chronology

I am attempting to place several of the historical and legendary figures of Oerth in a chronological order to help determine the possible influence and interaction between them.

I am looking for info on the powerful Mages, Liches and King-Priests ofhistory such as:

Tuerny, Lum, Acerak, Vecna, Tsojcanth, Cuthbert, and any others that come to mind.

Most of the time, all the books give you is "A long time back," or many centuries ago ..

Tuerny had influence over part of the great kingdom if I remember correctly, he may have controlled all of it at one time with his demonic servants. The artifact later turned on it's creator, and well, let's just say the rest is what you see of Tuerny now .. Given that time frame, it would put him in Early Great Kingdom history. Depending on the way you look at it possibly even before the formation of the great kingdom. (If you believe there was civilized life there before ..

Baron Lum was a noble under the rule of one of the Kings of Aerdy. He had - quite a rivalry going between himself and Leuk-o another who discovered one of those technological artifacts. He is definitly one of those early great kingdom personages too. No firm dates given.

Acerak is easily the most ancient of those you listed there. With the POSSIBLE exeception of Tsojcanth, depending on how you look at his time period. We know Acerak's empire was around the Sunndi area, and it existed before that place turned into a swamp. Given that there is no record of it with even early Great Kingdom history I would place them at least 500 years before the migration. Probally even 1000. Also given that Acerack had to be extremely old at that time. I would say the kingdom itself would have had to have lasted at very least 1000 years. (It does take a while for a lich to turn to dust..)

There is so much conflicting stuff on Vecna I can't really tell you .. Probally 1000+ years ago his empire was around. I wouldn't make it too much more than that.. I also don't even know where his empire was supposed to be. Early TSR docs seem to point to the West, somewhere in either the Suel or Oerdian empires. The most current docs point to around the Nyr Dyv area. Go figure ..

To find out how Tsojcanth was you just have to figure, when was the last time Tharizdun was active on Oerth? Given what horrors this guy is responsible for, I'd say he predates any of the history books for any races here. I'd put him 10,000 years back... He seems to be in a time period all to himself.

Cuthbert? No one has even speculated that before.. How old is Celestian? Or Farlanghn? Who knows? It's probally got to take a while to get up to that status. Realistically, I don't see any of the gods with "Medevil" styles to them originating on Oerth at all. Back when they were actually mortal (if they ever were .. ) the time period wouldn't have reached a Medevil point in Oerth culture.. No, probally like Mayheine they migrated. Maybe it wasn't from too far though .. Remember, there's lots of life on some of the other planets in the Oerth solar system. Some like Kule which have had long dead civilizations.. Who knows?

Excerpts from The Scarlet Brotherhood

 From: Sean K Reynolds [skreyn@wizards.com]

Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 2:42 PM

To: greyhawk@MPGN.COM

Subject: Re: [GREYHAWK] - A Suel Monk, we need a fresh approach

> I will await Sean's version of the Scarlet brotherhood before I talk about Monks and Assassins again.

Excerpts from The Scarlet Brotherhood:

"lt was on the first day of the year 5091 that I presented my vision to the council of nobles. The Brotherhood of the Scarlet Sign was to be an organization whose sole intent was to prevent the dilution of the virtues of our people. The war with the Bakluni was not preventing contact with their nefarious race, and excursions from rebellious Roka, Chebi, and Hochebi, as will as visitors from the west and south were polluting our people with their flesh and their culture. The Brotherhood would be beholden to the ideals of Suel culture, while forswearing physical and mental corruption; their purity would be like a flame, searing the unworthy and branding the inferior. Despite some resistance from some of the obviously tainted houses, the council and the king approved of my plan and presented me with a mansion and funds to use to create this order ...."

- Kevelli Mauk

founder of the Scarlet Brotherhood and survivor of the Rain of Colorless Fire

from The Journal Of Kevelli Mauk

"Although Kevelli died in 5105 SD, his teachings lived on and he was succeeded by his most talented student, Reshek Nes. Reshek followed his mentor1s lead and created a strict regimen for the most talented students, resulting in a monk-like state of strength through discipline and denial. Over the next hundred years, the members of the Scarlet Brotherhood developed their methods of unarmed combat, realizing that there would be many situations where an empty hand and an innocent face would be the most valuable weapon. "

(From the history of the Scarlet Brotherhood.)

FYI, I made my turnover for this project at the end of September - it's too late to make any major changes to the design at this point.

- Sean

Sean K Reynolds

Designer, TSR Creative Services I skreyn@wizards.com

Check out the Dragon Dice demo/tournament program at

http://www. tsr. com/DragonDice/ddtournament. html

"Lyzandred" on AOL's Instant Messenger, "15693685" on ICQ


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Greyhawk Wars Timeline, Month by Month

 From: Pat Ellis [PatEllis15@AOL.COM]

Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 8:43 AM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: [GREYTALK] Wars Timeline, Month by Month

Someone was looking for a month by month timeline of the Greyhawk Wars. Well, here it is. I should say that I did this work about 5 years ago, and my campaign differs slight from "canon". I've tried to make the obvious changes (i.e. IMC it was the Spindrift's captured by the S.B., not the Lordship), but chances are there ARE mistakes in here .... In fact taking another look at it, I probably added a bit just to flesh it out, there may be NO reference to show where I found some of this stuff ...



"Joining of Forces, Barbarians and Fists"


Sevvard Red Beard becomes "General" of the barbarian forces


Sacking of Calbut

Siege of Nevond Nevnend

Fall ofTenh

Vatun revealed as luz, Barbarians disband

Fall of Horned Society


Bandit Kingdoms absorbed by luz

Fall of the Shield Lands


luz pushes toward the Pale, but is ground to a stalemate.(*)


Fall of Crockport

Siege of Chendl begins

Alliance between Aerdy and the Bone March (*)

Siege of Chendl is broken


Fall of Sunndi

Aerdy armies enter the Adri Forest, and Iron Hills (*)

Osson's raid begins with penetration into the South Province


Osson Liberates Sunndi

Siege of Nulbish (*)


Osson invades and "Conquers" Medegia

Spidasa flees to Rauxes, and suffers the endless death


Assassination of Price Latmac Ranolg (*)

Note During the winter between 582 and 583, a number of treaties, or agreements must have been signed: Between luz, and Ket, Furyondy got some allies, Nyrond looked for support from Urnst etc.



Belvor is able to mobilize the southern armies and march them North in Furyondy

Lordship of the Isles are taken by the Scarlet Brotherhood


Turrosh Mak invades and takes the southern areas of the Wild Coast

Turrosh Mak invades eastern Principality of Ulek

Turrosh Mak takes the lower Lortmils, but is finally ground to a halt.


Celene recalls all troops and becomes isolationist

Osson's army is destroyed by Aerdy in Medegia


Medegia is pillaged


S.B. moves north, and takes ldee, and Onnwall (Note I'm assuming this occurred here, but I can't be certain as it didn't happen IMC).

Sea Princes fall to the S.B.


Sterrich, Geoff are overrun by Giants, the Yeomany collapses (did it?)

Northern Furyondy is fully in the control of luz


Eradication of Almor

Bissel invaded by Ket

Execution of generals by lvid. later, reanimated as Animus'


Invasion of Nyrond (ground to a halt with little gain, large loss of life)

Assassination of lvid (reanimated as an animus)

North Province breaks away as Nyrond pushes back (*)

Collapse of Aerdy


Council of Greyhawk Convenes

Anything marked with a * is probably of my own creation. Let's edit away! If you know of something else that should be included, or that should be changed let me know and I'll change it...

Pat E


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Azalin Greyhawk timeline

 From: Dr. Rainer Nagel [rnagel@GOOFY.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE]

Sent: Monday, September 28, 1998 6:47 AM


Subject: [GREYTALK] Azalin (very long)

The two Ravenloft novels _King of the Dead_ and _Lord of the Necropolis_ (both by Gene De Weese) contain a lot of information about Azalin's days on Oerth. Since those of you who create timelines might be interested, I'm posting a summary here. Since we're talking about books, not adventures, the info presented here might not be. canon, but at least it is canonical within Ravenloft, since it appears verbatim in other RL products.

231 CY

The man who will later become known as Azalin is born in Knurl as Firan Zal'honan, 2nd son of Earl Turalitan Zal'honan, ruler of Knurl. He has an older brother, Ranald, who is a glutton. (KING, p. 81, implied - the action starts in 246 CY and Firan is 15 years old).

234 CY

A younger brother, Irik, is born, who grows up to be loved most by the populace. (KING, p. 81, implied)

246 CY

Firan attempts a "Grand Summoning", together with lrik and the Nyrondese mage Corsalus. The summoning goes wrong, due to a mistake by Corsalus and Firan's faltering at a crucial time. A fiend takes possession of lrik. Earl Turalitan kills his son in demon form, not recognizing him. (KING, p. 89-114) Later that year, Firan relocates to Eastfair (reaching it at the beginning of Fireseek - p. 120) to become an apprentice with Quantarius (a mage who was exiled from Knurl after the lrik incident). Firan is considered to be quite talented. (KING, p. 115-125)

255 CY

Firan defends the caravan of Merchant Glodreddi highly competently against an ambush. He displays first evil tendencies. (KING, p. 126-131)

270 CY

A School of Magic, led by Quantarius, has been established at Eastfair, with Firan being its most highly skilled member. Firan's father dies and is replaced by Ranald.

275 CY

Firan has learned how to collect the life energies of the dying and to apply them to rejuvenate. Quantarius is not pleased and tells Firan of a disturbing prophecy that he should no try to cheat death. Firan finally leaves for Rauxes. (KING, p. 143-149)

283 CY

Firan helps quell a rebellion against the ruling house (which is not named; but their prince is called Edron). Firan lusts for power [he's probably LE at this point]. Then Ranald dies and Firan is recalled to Knurl which he frees of bandits and scheming mages. The people proclaim him "Azal'lan', meaning "wizard king" in Old Ceridian. (KING: 150-165)

283 CY - 291 CY

In the following years, Firan swears fealty to the Malachite Throne and rules Knurl with a heavy hand. He discourages priesthoods which leads to the almost total annihilation of wors~ip in Knurl. Despite frequent infusions of life energy, he begins to. age. (KING, p. 167f.)

291 CY

Firan, who is now respected and feared throughout the Flanaess, coerces a woman named Olessa, daughter of one Count Delaric, into marriage after killing her erstwhile suitor (unbeknownst to her). The marriage is not happy and remains childless. (KING, p. 167-177)

308 CY

Firan finds out that Olessa had herself purposely made barren by a gypsy woman. He finds a way to undo this and fathers a son. Olessa dies in childbed. (KING: p. 176-181)

318 CY

Firan becomes concerned that lrik feels drawn more to the peasants than to the ruling classes (as did his mother). He shows no signs of liking Firan's way of ruling. (KING, p. 182-186) In the following years, Firan's hold over Knurl begins to weaken (KING, p.186)

321 CY

Irik begins to conspire against his father. (KING, p. 184-186)

327 CY

Irik is caught and executed by his father for treason. Firan begins to hear voices (actually the powers of Ravenloft). They persuade him to become a lich [alignment shift to CE?]. (KING, p. 187-198)

329 CY

Firan becomes a lich. (KING, p. 198-203) From this year onwards ("for threescore years" - KING, p. 204), Firan searches for a means to revive his son [remember: no priests in Knurl!]. In the meantime, he seizes the Teesar Valley, the Flinty Hills, the Blemu Hills, and the Adri Forest and installs a reign of terror. He creates an army of unded from slain enemies and dissidents. (KING, p. 204-206)

391 CY

Firan's armies capture lnnspa (KING, p. 206). He is tricked into a trap by his trusted lieutenant Stakaster (KING, p. 207-216), escapes [he has to run away because he doesn't know Teleport, would you believe it] and is brought to Ravenloft by the Mists (KING, p. 219-236). He emerges in Barovia in the year 542, Barovian Calendar. There he forms an uneasy alliance with Strahd Von Zarovich which lasts until 579 Barovian Calendar. Then, he gets to be Lord of his own domain, Darkon.

I spare you the details of Azalin's activities in Ravenloft (save for the mention that Patricia Nead Elrod's _I, Strahd: The War Against Azalin_ contains a good account of this conflict with excellent Azalin characterization).

In the end, it turns out that the Ravenloft powers had influenced Firan from tbe moment of his birth and marked him for some sinister purpose. (LORD, p. 170-172) This purpose turns out to be the freeing of the Ravenloft powers while searching for a means to revive his son. (LORD, 283f.)

Azalin finally finds out about this and prevents it. He manages to return to Oerth in 246 CY, at the time of the Grand Summoning, to change events -but ends up _creating_ them by causing his younger self's indicision at the crudial moment himself. He is finally absorbed by the Ravenloft powers, condemned to watch his actions all over again. Darkon becomes a necropolis. (LORD, p. 290-301)

588 CY

There is a short epilogie dealing with two characters called Oldar and Balitor, former subjects of Azalin to whom he had taken a liking. Before his final fall {and the transformation of Darkon into a necropolis) he promised to send them to safety, which they find on Oerth, their memories of Darkon being only bad dreams. {LORD, p. 302f.)

All right, this does it. I hope it is of yome service to some of you.



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Vecna, and Product Timeline

From: Pierre-Paul Durastanti [elvelyn@CLUB-INTERNET.FR]

Sent: Sunday, September 27, 1998 2:38 PM


Subject: [GREYTALK] Vecna, and Product Timeline

Immaculate Image wrote:

>I think somebody said that Vecna lives was set in 584(6)?

According to Greyhawk: the Adventure Begins, by Roger E. Moore, it is set "around 582 CY or shortly before" (GtAB, page 2).


"First wave" of products ('NoG folio, WoG boxed set): 576 CY (GtAB, page 2).

WG5 Morderkainen's Fantastic Adventure: "before 570 CY, perhaps as early as 560" (GtAB, page 3).

WG6 Isle of the Ape: "years before the Greyhawk wars" (GtAB, page 3).

T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil: "prior to the Greyhawk Wars, in the mid- to late 570s" (GtAB, page 3)

A 1-A4 Scourge of the Slave-Lords: "picks up where T1-4 ... leaves off" (GtAB, page 3).

"Second wave" (GH Adventures, CoG boxed set, WG8 Fate of lstus, WGA 1-3 "Falcon" trilogy, WGA4 Vecna Lives): "around 582 CY or shortly before" (GtAB, page 2).

The "Falcon" trilogy chronicles events that are "assumed to have taken place just before WGA4 ... occurred".

"Third wave" (GH Wars, FtA and subsequent accessories): 584 CY (GtAB, page 2).

"Bridge" product (Return of the Eight): 585 CY (GtAB, page 2).

"Fourth wave" (PGtGH, G:tAB}: 585-591 CY (GtAB, page 2).

Star Cairns is not specifically dated. It's supposed to be set after Rary went to the Bright Desert, though, since there's a reference to "the so-called "Empire of the Bright Sands" of the archmage Rary" (SC, page 5, "The Modern Cairn" section). Also, Jallarzi Sallavarian is a member of the Circle of Eight (SC, page 2, "Recent Events" section).


P .-P. Durastanti: elvelyn@club-internet.fr

Groupe des Fauconniers Gris: ggf@netultra.net

Liste de diffusion sur Greyhawk: oerth@netultra.net

Liste de diffusion sur la SF francophone: sffranco@physics.utoronto.ca


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