Greyhawk Wars Timeline, Month by Month

 From: Pat Ellis [PatEllis15@AOL.COM]

Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 8:43 AM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: [GREYTALK] Wars Timeline, Month by Month

Someone was looking for a month by month timeline of the Greyhawk Wars. Well, here it is. I should say that I did this work about 5 years ago, and my campaign differs slight from "canon". I've tried to make the obvious changes (i.e. IMC it was the Spindrift's captured by the S.B., not the Lordship), but chances are there ARE mistakes in here .... In fact taking another look at it, I probably added a bit just to flesh it out, there may be NO reference to show where I found some of this stuff ...

582

Fireseek

"Joining of Forces, Barbarians and Fists"

Readying

Sevvard Red Beard becomes "General" of the barbarian forces

Planting

Sacking of Calbut

Siege of Nevond Nevnend

Fall ofTenh

Vatun revealed as luz, Barbarians disband

Fall of Horned Society

Flocktime

Bandit Kingdoms absorbed by luz

Fall of the Shield Lands

Wealsun

luz pushes toward the Pale, but is ground to a stalemate.(*)

Reaping

Fall of Crockport

Siege of Chendl begins

Alliance between Aerdy and the Bone March (*)

Siege of Chendl is broken

Goodmonth

Fall of Sunndi

Aerdy armies enter the Adri Forest, and Iron Hills (*)

Osson's raid begins with penetration into the South Province

Harvester

Osson Liberates Sunndi

Siege of Nulbish (*)

Patchwall

Osson invades and "Conquers" Medegia

Spidasa flees to Rauxes, and suffers the endless death

Sunsebb

Assassination of Price Latmac Ranolg (*)

Note During the winter between 582 and 583, a number of treaties, or agreements must have been signed: Between luz, and Ket, Furyondy got some allies, Nyrond looked for support from Urnst etc.

583

Fireseek

Belvor is able to mobilize the southern armies and march them North in Furyondy

Lordship of the Isles are taken by the Scarlet Brotherhood

Readying

Turrosh Mak invades and takes the southern areas of the Wild Coast

Turrosh Mak invades eastern Principality of Ulek

Turrosh Mak takes the lower Lortmils, but is finally ground to a halt.

Coldeven

Celene recalls all troops and becomes isolationist

Osson's army is destroyed by Aerdy in Medegia

Planting

Medegia is pillaged

Flocktime

S.B. moves north, and takes ldee, and Onnwall (Note I'm assuming this occurred here, but I can't be certain as it didn't happen IMC).

Sea Princes fall to the S.B.

Wealsun

Sterrich, Geoff are overrun by Giants, the Yeomany collapses (did it?)

Northern Furyondy is fully in the control of luz

Reaping

Eradication of Almor

Bissel invaded by Ket

Execution of generals by lvid. later, reanimated as Animus'

Goodmonth

Invasion of Nyrond (ground to a halt with little gain, large loss of life)

Assassination of lvid (reanimated as an animus)

North Province breaks away as Nyrond pushes back (*)

Collapse of Aerdy

Harvester

Council of Greyhawk Convenes

Anything marked with a * is probably of my own creation. Let's edit away! If you know of something else that should be included, or that should be changed let me know and I'll change it...

Pat E

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Re: [GREYTALK] GH WARS

Subj: Re: [GREYTALK] GH WARS
Date: 98-08-04 17:07:18 EDT
From: froon@HOL.FR (Patric Forno)
Sender: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (The GREYtalk Discussion List)
Reply-to: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (The GREYtalk Discussion List)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Hello Jason, Roger and the list,

-- Message d’origine –
>If you’d like to discuss the events of the Greyhawk Wars with someone and
>work on it as a team, I’d certainly be willing to bounce ideas back and
>forth with you. In particular, I’m very interested in the chronology of the
>Fall of the Sea Princes for my _Saga of Saltmarsh_.
>

Jason, I wanted to answer you privately, but I thought I might get helped better if I mailed the whole GH community. After all, GH is there for this purpose !

I also mailed this to Roger Moore, because I suspect him of having want I want (an Official GH WARS Timeline).

Sorry, nothing on the Sea Princes from me (there is close to nothing concerning dates in the official material).

I have an enormous problem with the GH WARS : I think the wars lasted from 582 to 585, and it is very confusing for me.

The reason for the confusion is the following :

-Goodmonth 584 : Aerdy nuked Almor & Chathold (WARS, 19 Ivid the Undying). The Month of Goodmonth is written in one of those sources, certainly WARS. It must be 584 because the raid from Osson must be in 583 (cannot be in 582 because the whole Vatun affair started in the fall of 582), and Osson is said to “winter” in the Medegia IIRC, with Ivid’s army on the other side of the border, waiting him. So it seems that the crushing of Almor was next year (so 584).

-Later it is told that Ivid V took the leadership of his armies, thinking the Almorian success was due to his strategic skills. He then entered Nyrond and is repelled. He is said to command from Rauxes, using spells and device, and this is a disaster. [IMO, TSR assumes this to happen in the fall of 584 (though this is written anywhere)].

-Then we learn that Ivid is slain during Richfest (not told which year) (WARS,21). As the story is told it is meant to be after the fall of Almor. But Richfest is BEFORE Goodmonth, so the assassination of Ivid V must be in Richfest 585 !!!

So the meeting at Greyhawk must be in Harvester 585, not 584 and the Day of the Great Signing must be in Coldeven 586, not 585. What a mess….

I can’t believe what I’ve just written, and I think it is false, but I would like to know WHERE it is false.

Maybe it is the fall of Almor who is in Goodmonth 583, and not 584 ? I don’t know, and all this WARS affair begins to get me mad !!!!

That’s why I would like to have an OFFICIAL Timeline for the WARS, and I don’t even ask for a monthly one (it would be good anyway), just an EXACT yearly one would suffice !!!!

I don’t ask for a telling of the WARS as the one in the WARS Boxed Set, I would like to see a TIMELINE. I was very confused by the telling of the whole story in the WARS Boxed Set, and even more confused with all errors that slipped in WGR4 and WGR5 about the WARS. For example, WGR5 p 4 tells that the breaking of Chendl’s siege was in Fall 584, but I can’t believe that Chendl has been besieged for a full year (the siege began in 583, isn’t it ?).

I hope Roger has one.

Regards

--------------
Patrice Forno – Marseille – France
froon@hol.fr
Les Fauconniers Gris (ggf@rmm.fr)
Liste de diffusion sur Greyhawk (Oerth@rmm.fr)

Thin Greyhawk Page : http://wwwperso.hol.fr/~froon/GH/FrGRey.htm
French WiF Page : http://wwwperso.hol.fr/~froon/WiF/wif.htm

Jacques Villeneuve Champion du Monde avec B.A.R. !!!
Go Jacques Go !!!

Southern Border of Keoland, a Chronology (576-591 CY)

Date: Sun, 02 Jan 00 00:44AM PST
From: Jason Verbitsky Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] Southern Border of Keoland, a Chronology (576-591 CY)

Scott Rennie wrote:
>
> Frank Timar wrote:
>
> < > breading experiments can enhance the Cthulu flavor proposed for this region.>>
>
> I think Jason Verbitsky once also pointed out to me that my map doesn't extend far enough west to cover Saltmarsh.
>
>Speaking of Saltmarsh, we need an official story of how events played out in that module series. Saltmarsh and nearby communities will be important in suplying Westkeep.>>
>
> Cue Jason... ;-)

Yes, O' great master, you summoned me? I hear and obey. ;)

I'll answer the second question first: the result of the Saltmarsh Series of Modules (U1-U3) is that the Sahuagin were defeated and driven from the Lizard Men's lair (a raid which, BTW, is not dissimilar to the Raid on Innsmouth -- coincidence? ...) [see U3 page 36]

Now the first question, OTOH, is a bit more complicated and requires a longer answer:

-----------------------
Southern Border History
-----------------------

CHRONOLOGY OF

Date Events Occurring / South Keoland Occupied By
---- --------------------------------------------

576 Needfest (New Years)
Keoland (Start of Classic Greyhawk Campaign)

584 Fireseek (1st month)
Treaty of Niole Dra with Furyondy against Iuz

584 Readying (2nd month)
Allied armies march to aid Furyondy against Iuz

584 Goodmonth (8th month)
Scarlet Brotherhood Invades SP & Southern Keoland

584 Harvester (9th month)
Scarlet Brotherhood calls for peace, Council of Greyhawk convened

585 Readying (2nd month)
Keoish, Gran March, Ulek armies march forth from Flen to liberate the giant-held Earldom of Sterich.

585 Coldeven (3rd month)
Treaty of Greyhawk is finally signed Keoish Southern Border fixed where armies were at
the time of signing.

585 Coldeven (3rd month)
Scarlet Brotherhood holds Southern Keoland (Start of Ashes Campaign)

586 Coldeven
Flight of the Fiends

586 Patchwall (4th month)
Furyondy/Veluna attack Iuz breaking the Treaty of Greyhawk

586 Patchwall (4th month)
earliest possible date Keoish liberation efforts could begin

588 Coldeven (3rd month)
last settlement of Sterich liberated from Giants

589 Summer
Revolts sweep through the Hold of the Sea Princes
Probable that Keoish have begun liberation efforts

590 Early in the year
Keoish armies control Southern Keoland
Keoland captures Westkeep in the Hold of the Sea Princes

591 Needfest (New Years)
Keoland's Southern border reaches to the Hools and beyond (Start of Living Greyhawk Campaign)

COMMENTARY AND EXPLANATION

In 576 CY the town of Saltmarsh, and thus the Southern region between the Dreadwood and the Hool Marshes, is firmly in the Kingdom of Keoland. According to the module U1, THE SINISTER SECRET OF SALTMARSH: "...Saltmarsh is placed in the southernmost part of Keoland, at the western edge of hex U4/123." (1981, p.3). However, the national maps in the 1983 GUIDE TO THE WORLD OF GREYHAWK are less conclusive as the area between the Dread Wood and the Hool Marshes is somewhat of a no-man's land (p.44-45). But as the maps don't say that it isn't (any more than they say that it is) and the module explicitly states that it is, IMNSHO, it is.

In 584 CY, during the Summer/Goodmonth, during the so-called 'Greyhawk Wars' after the Scarlet Brotherhood (SB) conquered the Hold of the Sea Princes (SP) they then proceeded to invade southern Keoland and blockade Gradsul (GW p.15, 23-24).

By 585 CY's "cold, harsh spring", the border between Keoland and the SB/SP is in the middle of the Dreadwood -- right from the Javan River to the Azure Sea (as can be seen on the map on the inside cover _FtA:AotF_, the date of which is stated in the text on page 9).

Here it is worth noting that the it could well have taken the Scarlet Brotherhood's forces up until Spring/Coldeven (3rd Month) of 585 to achieve the border depicted on this map. Many would say that this border would have been achieved by Summer-Fall/Harvester (9th Month) 584, but that seems rather quick for my taste. The dating methodology used by TSR for this period is seriously flawed as the date of the FtA is supposed to be the "Year of Peace" after the Treaty of Greyhawk was signed, and that didn't really happen until Spring/Coldeven (3rd Month) of 585! (GW p.24 vs GH:PG p.11, GH:tAB 5, 19, 62). So this FtA map could either refer to Summer-Fall/Harvester (9th Month) 585 or Coldeven 586.

One really should be responsible and go with the date of the earlier publication and make it 586. (BTW, FWIW, Roger Moore himself has agreed with and admitted to me that the date that TSR uses for the Treaty of Greyhawk is in error, but that AFAHK it will be used in future Greyhawk products nonetheless -- I opt to use the correct date regardless of TSR's choice).

Thus, from sometime between Goodmonth (8th month) of 584 and Coldeven (3rd month) of 585 a bloody struggle ensued between the forces of the Scarlet Brotherhood and Keoland for the area of the Dreadwood to the Hool Marshes. The two sides fought each other to a standstill and in Coldeven 585 with the signing of the Treaty of Greyhawk the southern border of Keoland became fixed midway through the Dreadwood. IMNSHO, this up to 7 month war seems a bit better, and more realistic, than having the SB deliver ultimatums, sail ships in and conquer both the SP and southern Keoland all in a single month.

So in Coldeven of 585 CY the Southern border of Keoland was certainly amidst the Dreadwood (as depicted on the FtA map); However, at some point after Coldeven 586 CY, and before the end of 590, the Keoish could have taken the offensive and liberated Saltmarsh and the rest of Southern Keoland. This is possible because in Coldeven and Planting (4th Month) of 586 Furyondy and Veluna were the first nations to cast aside the Treaty of Greyhawk when they invoked the famous 'Flight of Fiends' and attacked Iuz (GH:tAB 19-21, 31, GH:PG 11-12).

Strictly speaking, however, this would require a SB/SP withdrawal rather than a Keoish offensive as Furyondy-Veluna were the first to break the PACT OF GREYHAWK on the 1st of Patchwall 586. But the Keoish with ties to Furyondy-Veluna may have had some advanced warning of the imminent dissolution of the Pact/Treaty so that they could prepare their offensive better than the SB/SP could their defences, and strike early in the month Patchwall (or soon after) to reclaim the civilized portions of the lost Hool Marches (the Keoish Southlands).

In the summer of 589 CY, revolts swept through the Sea Princes domain shaking the hold that the Scarlet Brotherhood had on that nation (Gh:tAB p.32). If Keoland hadn't already moved to liberate southern Keoland, following Furyondy/Veluna's lead, it is probable that this revolt would be the perfect opportunity to do so. If they already had begun such efforts, the revolts would aid the Keoish by seriously distracting the Scarlet armies as to which threat to deal with -- the Keoish or the Sea Princes, and as the revolt is behind the their own lines opening a second front for the war it is probable that they'd devote more effort to suppressing the revolt than fighting the Keolanders.

In 590 CY, Keoland takes the stronghold Westkeep on the other side of the Hool Marshes, across the Javan River (GH;tAB p.32). Here although it is possible that they take Westkeep before liberating all of Southern Keoland, I think that it is highly unlikely as the resources such an expedition would require would be put to better use freeing Keolanders from their Scarlet yoke. Moreover, the Scarlet Brothers would likely have much reduced forces as they still have to deal with the 589 revolt in the Hold of the Sea Princes. With these southern Keolanders freed the Keoish armies swelled as some joined their ranks in vengeance, and the Scarlet occupational forces were seriously diminished. This way the taking of Westkeep after the liberation of Southern Keoland makes more sense, to me at least, than liberating it after taking Westkeep.

Exactly how long this liberation of Southern Keoland would take, as with how long it took to conquer in the first place, is an open matter. Again I prefer to have both the conquest and liberation to take a longer rather than a shorter period of time and thus make for a more epic struggle between Great Powers. But, despite my opinion on this, the evidence does not preclude one or the other, or both, from being lighting attacks with quick results. I think that 'officially' it should be stated that during these nebulous periods that the battle raged back and forth and the individual DMs can then decide exactly where was occupied when according to what is best for their story at the time. But if this approach is taken in the Living Greyhawk Campaign (or any other official form) it should be done with a most cautious eye on the consequences so that once a particular location's occupation during a certain time is stated in a future module or sourcebook, all subsequent works dealing with the area of southern Keoland be forced to take this into account. However, if this flexibility is too much because of WotC's suggested lower standards of fact-checking for Greyhawk writers, then these nebulous periods should be be provided with a single unambiguous chronology that is simple enough to grasp for even the laziest designer -- thus favouring a quick conquest and liberation in order to minimize the opportunities for any further corruptions and convolutions of the 'official' or 'canon' Greyhawk history. I realize that this sort of detail won't matter to the vast majority of players and/or DMs but for Greyhawk purists, like myself, it is an important consideration.

Regardless, in 591 when the Living Greyhawk campaign is to begin, Keoland's southern border once again stretches to the Hool Marshes and now reaches even beyond as the Keoish armies continue their imperial march...

FWIW, this is only my (unofficial) interpretation of when the Southern border of Keoland was where, YMMV. I hope that it is of some use to you, my fellow Greyhawk, and especially Keoland, fans. Gentle readers amongst you will forgive my inevitable errors in grammar and spelling, and I trust that you'll be kind enough to correct me on something that I may have misunderstood or not stately as clearly as I
should have, or add additional references that I have overlooked this evening. I will be considering this issue in more depth to determine the exact chronology, but I welcome any suggestions that you may have so that this chronology can be refined and improved both for my own campaign and for the Living Greyhawk effort.

P.S. For more information on the other events of the Greyhawk Wars involving Keoland see my message on the "Against the Giants: Combined Chronology". FYI, this message can be found in Morgan's Fantastic GreyTalk Archives:

http://24.112.96.246/Add/Greytalk.nsf/b44505cda4beea3285256664005e00fa/8525678a0009fae8852567d10025ca89?OpenDocument

I'll post this message to the Keoland group as it is particularly on topic for Keoish history. If I were to actually receive sufficient feedback, I could possibly be persuaded to revisit the issue to provide a complete Keoish chronology for the entire Greyhawk Wars somewhat earlier than I'd otherwise get around to it...

Jason
>:)

* * * * * * * * * * * * *
His Dread and Awful Presence,
Jason Verbitsky
hierax@home.com
http://hierax.com/greyhawk/

Pre-War skirmishes and WG8 (was: When did the REAL Greyhawk Wars begin?)

Priority: Normal
Date sent: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:29:07 -0400
Send reply to: Keith Horsfield afn09454@afn.org
From: Keith Horsfield afn09454@AFN.ORG
Subject: [GREYTALK] Pre-War skirmishes and WG8 (was: When did the REAL Greyhawk Wars begin?)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Remember this post:

> So you think it is a trick question, see Dragon #65.
>
> Answer: 578 CY – Kingdom of Nyrond, Prelacy of Almor and their
>allies proclaim war on the Great Kingdom.
>
> Oh, and btw the Grandwood Forest was possibly in for a world of
>hurt in 578 CY, see Dragon #63.

Here is more fuel to add to the pre-FtA maneuvering.

From WG8: Fate of Istus, pg. 69 (center column, 1st full paragraph)

“Ivid has become more obsessed with extending his lands in order to form the “Greater Aerdi Empire” ever since his declaration of war against Almor and Nyrond. The Herzog’s subsequent blunting of the armies of the Golden League (Nyrond, Almor and those countries comprising the Iron League; see Guide to the World of Greyhawk, “An Overview of Political Divisions”) has added only fresh fuel to his monomania. The aforementioned battle(s) transpired after the events detailed in T1-4 (The Temple of Elemental Evil) and spanned two years, ending in a minor strategic victory for Ivid’s field army under the leadership of the Herzog, and seeing the withdrawal of Almorian and Nyrondese armies to the west of the Harp River.”

Taking all of the above into account, the following might be surmised:

578 – Mutual declaration of war; No actual campaigning due to the Golden League trying to come to some census of the proper strategy and Ivid having to deal with the insurrection of the Grandwood Forest.

579 – ToEE takes place (need to reread this module to see if there is any mention of events to the east); Campaigns begin between the GK and the Golden League.

580 (late) or 581 (early) – The Golden League retreats behind the Harp River.

This also leads to a narrowing of when WG8 takes place:

Under the section for Rel Mord:

The Iron Fist Guild is founded in 504 CY. When describing the Guild’s building it is mentioned that mercenaries have been gathering there for over 70 years.

With the understanding that WG8 is a transitional module prior to the wars, this makes sense and places it between 576 and 582 (each over 70 years but less than 80). The above notes on the war with the Golden League further narrow down the window to 580 to 582.

There are other clues as to the timeframe of WG8, one of the best so far is that Ivid has replaced Xaene with Karloolck six months ago. Anyone know when this took place?

Comments, suggestions, opinions?

Keith Horsfield
Member Team OS/2
“To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail”
-----
E-mail: afn09454@afn.org
Home page: http://www.afn.org/~afn09454/

Re: [GH98] WotC/TSR need to be fearless

Priority: Normal
Date sent: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:19:21 -0400
Send reply to: Keith Horsefield afn09454@afn.org
From: Keith Horsefield afn09454@afn.org
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] [GH98] WotC/TSR need to be fearless
Originally to: David Rooke dwr@davroo.demon.co.uk
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Good Day All,

>> I disagree. If one thing can be said for Carl Sargent he was true to
>> his predecessors.
>
>That is the crux of the matter. You think Sargent was true to his
>predecessors and I think that he most certainly was not.

David, you prove my point for me:

>I had a long chat at a convention with Carl Sargent and discussed many
>things with him. One of the things he mentioned was how he felt
>hamstrung by the Rary the Traitor material and would have loved to have
>just ignored it. He actually felt that some material did need to be cut
>but he wasn’t authorized to do so.

This is just one case in point. Carl also was true to a fault
t[missing text] Cook the author of Greyhawk Wars.

>Of course, he made worthy attempts to make the timeline consistent
>bearing in mind that even this he failed in, as he admitted to me
>personally, since the world was EGG’s (not hit) and he was therefore
>guessing in many areas.

And there is the key phrase, it WAS Gygax’s world. Greyhawk is no
longer Gygax’s and from the looks of things it may never return to the
fold. Gary has my utmost respect and I thank him for bringing his
vision to all of us, but the ‘official’ Greyhawk is now owned by TSR.

>What damns Sargent’s work in my eyes, however, is that he turned the
>setting inside out from a setting for heroic, S&S style fantasy to an
>essentially dark fantasy setting. Consequently, his stated aim of
>remaining true to the essence of EGG’s creation was just the waving of
>flag of convenience.

Under the guidance given Carl (see your comment about TSR and [text missing]
deciding upon a consistent history and the Rary the Traitor
conversation, he kept to Gary’s vision as much as possible. Once
again I’ll state that if you read “War’s End” from the Atlas of the
Flanaess from FtA and the ‘Brief History’ from the 1980 WoG Gazetteer,
the end political result is remarkable similar.

I find the duality of FtA Greyhawk, a much darker fantasy in the east over the west, a welcomed change from the dribble we receive all too often from TSR.

>The Greyhawk Wars and FtA won’t happen IMC at all.

What about Dragon #65 (by Kuntz)? Nyrond, Almor and the Iron League declare war on the Great Kingdom in 578 CY. Personally, I like the idea that a state of war existed for 4 years between these nations, but it took the ‘Vatun’ incident to actually light the fuse.

>However, what happens IMC isn’t what’s being discussed here. It’s what
>happens with the Official Campaign that counts

Agreed.

>
>>If Roger’s version of GH does not take into account the
>>evolution that has happened through the Greyhawk Wars then there is
>>no valid reason for it except possible $$$$ and catering to minorities
>>within the community who were put out by subsequent TSR publications
>>on Greyhawk. Just republish the original setting and be done with it.
>>
>
>But am I saying scratch the GH Wars? Of course not.

I didn’t say YOU did, but I have my concerns about TSR.

>> One of the caveats of Greyhawk is an internally consistent
>>history. We just can’t change this because we don’t like the outcome.
>
>Part of TSR’s job is to decide on a consistent historical timeline. If it
>offends a few people then that’s too bad. You can’t please everyone. I’d
>rather have a few people offended and a consistent/believable history
>than an fractured and unbelievable history with another set of people
>aggrieved (somewhat more justifiably. IMO).

Bingo!! When TSR handed Carl the job of producing FtA, he was placed under some strict guidelines as to what he could do with it and what he couldn’t. Now, due to public opinion, it would appear that they regret that decision. Roger is probably also working under a set of guidelines but IMO the issues that were introduced by the Greyhawk Wars and then ‘codified’ within FtA must be dealt with, neither ignored nor glossed over with simple fixes.

I’ve been relatively silent on the use of the Crook of Rao to rid Oerth of ALL the fiends. I don’t agree with it. It introduces a whole host of problems. But as of yet I have not been able to come up with a palatable solution that achieves the same ends. This one issue, removing the fiends from Oerth, appears to be one of the foundation building blocks for the next edition of Greyhawk.

>>Sometimes people die and sometimes people don’t live up to your
>>expectations.
>
>Are you trying to say that, “yes there’s some crap in WG but you have
>good stuff and bad stuff in a product line but this “lumpiness” makes it
>more real. For real life has good and bad”? To that I say humbug!

No what I was trying to say is that Tensor is dead and Rary acted contrary to how most people envisioned him. These events are now in the past and written in Greyhawk’s history. It is time to move on.

>What I feel WotC/TSR are in danger of doing is trying to please everyone
>(or should I say offend no one) with GH98 leaving us with a wishy-washy
>creation that resolves none of the settings core problems.

Core problems in whose opinion (though it would seem Roger and TSR agree with those against FtA. Wonder why? Could it be up until this point only those who felt slighted by FtA voiced their opinion)? I agree catering to a vocal on-line minority that all we get is a Greyhawk not of any vision.

We already have a S&S Greyhawk in the 1983 boxed set. If this is all the new edition is going to do then drop the new edition and publish supplements for the original setting and FtA.

>WotC/TSR must decide on a firm stance with the setting and the way it’s
>going to be developed cutting some of the crass historical stuff, if that’s
>what it takes to get the job done.

To this statement I can only second Galwylin’s comments:
>the ‘it never happened’ sticker.

>
>For this to happen in Greyhawk would be completely unacceptable.
>What eventually goes into Greyhawk’s new game has to include
>everything that’s happened in it’s past.
>>RPGs are just a mirror of Real Lif(with a lot of escapism thrown in for
>>good measure) and for the most part should operate in like manner.
>>
>
>Again humbug! RPGs are a *game* meant to be enjoyed as a
>recreational pastime by those taking part. Nothing more and nothing
>less. Mirror of real life? Such profound nonsense makes me want to
>laugh…
>

Up until this point I found your posting palatable. How you choose to run relationships between your PCs and NPCs is your decision. How I choose to run them in my campaign is my decision. Whether or not you agree with that does not grant you the opportunity to make light of other views on how RPGs d be gamed.

Keith Horsefield
Member Team OS/2
“To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail”
---
E-mail: afn09454@afn.org
Home page: http://www.afn.org/~afn09454/

Re: Fords, and Fords on the Veng

Date sent: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:26:55 +0100
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
From: Patrice Forno froon@HOL.FR
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Fords, and Fords on the Veng
Originally to: lawsond@erols.com
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Hi,

Lon Dawson answered me:
---
>Patrice Forno wrote:
>>
>> Another question for the assembly :
>> How can a **navigable** river be fordable ?
>> If the boats can sail, how can a man or horse walk through ?
>> (There is a good example in AoE page 168 – Broad Ford – but it is quite
>> special)
>> I speak of rivers navigable on its whole length for any vessel. If so,
how
>> can it be fordable ?
>> Can someone versed in the Rivers knowledge help ?
(…)

> “Wet” fords are completely different and much more difficult to
> recognize. They may range from being deep enough to get a man wet to
> the waist, chest, or neck up to requiring horses to actually swim
> axross. What they represent is a spot of slow, easy to manage currents
> in a normally much faster river. They also may represent a location
> where normally steep riverbanks are more gently sloped, allowing easier
> access to the water. Rivers with “wet” fords could be navigable by
> potentially any riverine vessels, which tend to have shallow draughts
> (no more than 3’ or so) regardless of their size (the big Mississippi
> riverboats of the 19th century rarely drew more than 4’ of water fully
> loaded).

OK, thanks for the definitions. I really appreciate.
But what of Galleys, Caravels and possibly Galleons ?
What are the draughts of such vessels ?
I’m asking this, because if I remember correctly, the Furyondy’s fleet is said to have fled the Whyestil Lake (when Iuz invaded) to the Nyr Dyv : From WARS Boxed set : “The Whyestil fleet, which had long assured Belvor’s dominance on that water (Whyestil Lake), barely escaped, sailing down the Veng to the Nyr Dyv” The Royal Furyondy’s fleet is composed of 8 Great Galleons, 16 Heavy Caravels, 14 Caravels and 44 River Vessels (WGR4 page 44).

How can such ships sail on the Veng if there are fords (assuming wet fords?)

And there ARE fords on the Veng. There is one at Grabford, because Horned troops are said to have Forded the Veng to attack Grabford (WARS Boxed Set : “At the same time, the Horned Society forded the Veng and laid siege to Grabford.”), and there is one southwards (the Panggate from Gord’s Books).

What are, in your opinion, the chances of a Caravel to sail through a Wet Ford ? In other words, do someone know the Draught of Caravels, Galleons and the like ?

Thanks

Regards
---
Patrice Forno – Marseille – France
froon@hot.fr

Home Page : http://wwwperso.hol.fr/~froon/
Thin Greyhawk Page : http://wwwperso.hol.fr/~froon/GH/FrGRey.htm
French WiF Page : http://wwwperso.hol.fr/~froon/WiF/wif.htm

Jacques Villeneuve Champion du Monde !!!

PS : I look for a Honda 600 V Transalp.
Contact me if you sell one in France!

Thornward (Long)

Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:54:21 EST
From: "Wayne S. Rossi"
Subject: Thornward (Long)

Thornward, Occupied Neutral City of
Ruler: Various diplomats and appointees
Population: 5,370

The Lirtlemark of Bissel was long the border state of the Flanaess, at the edge of the Baklunish West. During the Greyhawk Wars, when it fell to its Baklunish compliment Ket, there was a change in the face of the rulers, a bit more proselytization than usual, and a good deal more taxes. Life went on. When Veluna and Gran March negotiated a withdrawal of the Ketite forces, Beygraf Nadaid was most resistant about giving up Thornward, a major source of income for his coffers. The ultimate settlement was that Bissel would be returned to autonomous rule, and Thornward would be ruled by delegated officials from each of the four nations. The citizens of Thornward breathed a sigh of relief. That would not last long. It turned out that Bissel, Gran March, Ket, and Veluna had all had the same idea: use Thornward as a place to rid themselves of corrupt officials. Over the course of a rocky first year (which included more than one open clash of drunken Bisselite and Ketite soldiers), a vague pattern developed. If a map of the city were held so that the Fals River were at top (meaning a Northeast-Southwest orientation instead of a North-South one), the division would look like a large "X." The Northeast quarter is mostly patrolled by Velunese, who are notorious for fleecing the merchants who enter and leave the city by river. Ket has taken up the Northwest quarter, thus giving it control over the major trade gate coming from the Baklunish West. As a protective measure, so the Ketites and Bisselites have no common border within the city, Gran March occupied the Southwest quarter, and Bissel has control over the Southeast. Each of these quarters is now referred to by the nation that holds it at present.
Thornward is a trade city, and now intrigue and bribery are all but a way of life. Each quarter is rife with spies from the other governments, and tavern brawls over political issues are now common (and a well-known quick and easy form of assassination).

Velunese (Northeast) Quarter
A red sash with the seal of Veluna as a pin marks the bureaucracy that rules the Velunese quarter. A demanding, inefficient machine, the docks are run with a clockwork slowness that involves countless cargo searches, endless paperwork, and exorbitant tariffs. Naturally, the more the palms of the bureaucrats are greased, the faster their work will go. The Velunese quarter sees a lot of the trade from the Fals River, and consequently there is a decent-sized market here (though not as great as the large market currently in the Ketite quarter). The law is fairly in tact, and certainly the guards come at a higher price than in the rest of the city (though in Thornward, everyone has a price). Still, it is fairly well-kept, although there is still the stink of corruption and the political brawls that so often erupt in Thornward.

Ketite (Northwest) Quarter
In the Ketite quarter, a degree of racism uncommon in the Flanaess at large takes place: the more Baklunish one looks, the better treatment he will receive. Caravans to and from Ket come through here, and Baklunish merchants are treated significantly better than those who are not. This is where the large open-air marketplace of Thornward is located, and it has taken on a particularly Baklunish air with the years of Ketite rule. The faint smell of spice can be smelled, and there are vendors of all kinds here. Taxes extracted are quite severe, though the exact degree depends upon the race of the merchant in question. As always in Thornward, a little bribe goes a long way. Ketite officials are probably more for sale than most others in the city.
They are easy to bribe, and after a disturbance, there is a relatively small fee in exchange for the guards to ignore the obvious guilty parties and round up the usual suspects. Everything runs fairly smoothly in the Ketite quarter, regardless of the corruption beneath.

Gran March (Southwest) Quarter
If not Veluna, one would have hoped that the traditionally militaristic Gran March would furnish a government free of corruption for Thornward. Unfortunately, it is exactly the opposite; instead of sending its cream off to rule a city that is being occupied to keep away from all-out war, the nobility of Gran March instead used it as a post for the more cowardly and craven. It is run laxly, kept full of arrests and tariffs and the like to ensure that, when anyone of real standing from the Gran March comes, their section of Thornward will seem orderly.

Bissel (Southeast) Quarter
All of the other quarters are utterly corrupt, and unfortunately, the Margrave of Bissel decided that he needed his best and brightest working in Pellak, and sent his worst to Thornward. More than any of the other sections, this one is a mess; uncaring bureaucrats are notorious for tying up caravans and merchants having anything to do with Ket for days for no reason, and they do little better for the rest of the would-be traders. Indeed, the Bisselites are unfriendly to any who were not from Thornward before Bissel fell, which is problematic, since the population beforehand was considerably smaller than it is now. Their price is much higher for non-Bisselites.

The Rulers of Thornward
Reldath of Bissel: Reldath was a minor official in Thornward before the wars, and kept his position through the Ketite occupation. He hates the Ketites, and works to keep the Bisselite quarter relatively free of the Baklunish influence that has prevailed in the rest of the city. His efforts are rather futile, though, and the others would like to see him outed.
Orwen of Veluna: A weaselly bureaucrat who had, through intrigue, worked his way up the Velunese chain of command, Orwen was a man that the Velunese government was glad to see out of Mitrik. He has wormed himself into most of Thornward's better places, and holds the most influence of the four rulers of Thornward. He is a fairly impartial man, and will take a bribe from anyone, provided it is large enough.
Verin of Ket: The most charming of the four leaders in Thornward, Verin is a snake of a man with good grooming, as a noteworthy Velunese priest said upon meeting him. Verin is ambitious, and was probably given the position in Thornward to prevent him from upsetting things in Ket during Nadaid's crucial early years as the Beygraf. Verin is very accomodating to anyone who has the money to pad his purse, but he has a vengeful streak.
Arlas of Gran March: Before Thornward, this portly, snivelling man was just an irritating toady who was capable enough that the military of the Gran March got him out of its hair. There is little that Arlas will not do to make sure that his superiors feel he is doing a good job (regardless of how he is really doing).
Some Personalities of Note in Thornward
Jereth: The proprietor of the Gryphon's Feather, a tavern of considerable note just in the Velunese quarter, is among the most able men in Thornward.
He has a strict policy: no one gets into a political fight while in the Feather. Those who do are quickly escorted to the street, and asked not to come back. However, if someone needs a favor, he can make sure that it's done. It should go without saying that there are great amounts of gambling in every tavern and inn in Thornward.
Erenal: This beautiful courtesan is a master of intrigue, and knows more about Thornward than most criminal masterminds and officials combined. She is the single best source of information on anything that has been talked about in Thornward for three days or more, and is perfectly willing to sell knowledge, if the right price is found.
Tagrent: A noteworthy member of organized crime, Tagrent is probably the most accessible figure in Thornward's underworld (which is not always so "under"). He has an ear for the winds of the less reputable nature, and prospects for the up-and-coming.
Drenil: A Ketite captain of the guard, Drenil is among the best known officers of the law in terms of getting things accomplished in Thornward, be it a false arrest or an unexpected loophole, a prison break, or whatever the imagination can conceive. Additionally, his price is fairly reasonable.

Notes on using this material
The first thing I'd have to say is, watch Casablanca. This was my primary inspiration in my view of Thornward, and the Gryphon's Feather is pretty much like Rick's CafE Americain, down to Jereth, who is a lot like Rick. You'll find tons of inspiration, in setting, theme, and perhaps even plot, in Casablanca. Because this is an overview, I didn't insert any direct intrigues in there; if one is worth mentioning, then a hundred other ones are. The wind blows and there's a new intrigue in Thornward. Things get settled brutally here. Make sure that people remember bribery when they're thinking of Thornward. It's more or less a way of life.

Other than that, have fun.

Wayne

Re: Greyhawk populations - Multipart Reply

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 01:13:33 -0700
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Lonny Eckert
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Greyhawk populations – Multipart Reply t
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

I believe that the Greytalk server has a limit of 50 messages per day so bear with the multi-part reply to your comments. This is a very long e-mail.

Hopefully a somewhat more integrated reply on my part will help frame the discussion better.

Thanks everyone for your good comments on this subject.
I had previously commented to part of Nikolaus's thoughts on the subject.

Nikolaus Athas wrote:
>Of course now that the Greyhawk wars have been unleashed (and
>finished) the population density would have made a further drop as war,
>famine and pestilence take their toll.

The Greyhawk Wars can't be used as a justification for the Flanaess's low populations prior to the advent of the wars takeing place. I see the fundamental question as being in the many years of peace what happened to the central and western nations.

>Besides, who wants to live in overcrowded conditions. A low density
>allows your players to carve out a barony within an established
>territory.

Previously answered but multiplying by 5 or even 10 will not cause overcrowding in most of the nations

>Historically many kingdoms laid claim to territories outlined on maps
>but actually had little or no control of those regions, and infact made
>little effort to present a presence there.

This can still be true when multiplying by 5 or even 10.

SCOTT CASPER wrote:
>On a seemingly unrelated thread, Lonnie Eckert was trying to account
>for the small human population of Oerth (compared to Earth). I
>suggest that this is consistent with the post-apocalypse theme, so I
>would leave the populations right where they are. Besides, the fewer
>people there are, the fewer NPCs I have to make...

As noted above what happened to the populations in the many years of peace prior to the wars?

Why are you concerned about the NPCs you'll have to make? We're doing it for you (Hint: We'd welcome anyone's help). For the Suel Barbarian project, we are specing out all of the Jarls and Chieftains of the Ice, Frost, and Snow Barbarians, and Stonefist. We're working out their names right now, but the political structure, main regional map, and other stuff is on K. Mattewsons web site.

[Text missing]

never bothered to detail out all of the Greater noble house's vassals
Has this lack of detail in the Marklands kept you from running adventures in Furyondy? If you've ever seen a Harn product, that is the standard that I would like for us to achieve.

I had previously replied to much of Nikolaus's e-mail here. I dredged up one of me old biology books.

>Agreed but if your base population drops too low then your overall
>growth rate can decline until it becomes -ve. (Damn I wish I had kept
>my Biology texts I could show you growth formulae which would back me
>up). Basically 25% of 10 million is noway as damaging to a population
>as say 10% of 100,000.

My biology book (“Biology”, Raven and Johnson) didn't discuss this. Were you referring to deleterious impacts due to an insufficiently diverse gene pool? I don't think the Flanaess's population was ever that low to have that come into play. Then again I'm not a biologist by trade.

Population growth was expressed as a differential equation:
dN/dt = rN
where N is the number of individuals in the population, dN/dt is the rate of change of its numbers over time, and r is the intrinsic rate of natural increase for that population – its innate capacity for growth.

Carrying Capacity
No matter how rapidly populations may grow under such circumstances, however, they eventually reach some environmental limit imposed by shortages of an important factor such as space, light, waterm or nutrients. A population ultimately stabilizes at a certain size, calle dthe carrying capacity of the particular place where it lives. The carrying capacity is the number of individuals that can be supported at that place indefinitely, a measure that is dynamic rather than static as the characteristics of the place change. In practice, the number of individuals oscillates around a mean. The growth curve of a specific population, which is always limited by one or more factors in the environment, can be approximated by the following equation (pp 444-447):

dN/dt = rN[(K-N)/K]

In other words, the growth rate of the population under consideration (dN/dt) equals its rate of increase (r) multiplied by N, the number of individuals present at any one time, and then multiplied by an expression equal to K, the carrying capacity of the environment, minus N divided by K. As N increases (the population grows in size), the fraction by which r is multiplied becomes smaller and smaller, and the rate of increase of the population declines. In practical terms, this amounts to such factors as increasing competition among more and more individuals for a given set of resources present in a particular system, the buildup of waste, or an increased rate of predation.

Perhaps someone will crunch some numbers...
Phil O'Neill wrote:
>Ah, but the “explosion” in Earth's population hasn't been a smooth one

[Text missing]

circa 900 AD. It was squelched by perpetual warring and plagues.

What do you think would have happened to Europe's population if from AD 800-1300 there were as few wars as there were in the Flanaess?

>I grant that this is still a lot more than medieval Europe, but if
>the other factors are taken into account, I think you'd find that the
>population figures are reasonable.

Warfare has not occurred on the same level and plagues would not likely have the same effect (until a similar population density was reached) as they did in medieval Europe.

>Besides [grin], it depends how many spell-capable priests are in your
>campaign. To my mind, most soldiers are 0-level,
>so to me most priests are 0-level teachers, celebrants and all-round
>wise guys [grin] who've never cast a spell in their lives. Otherwise,
>you end up with an unworkable medieval society...still interesting, but
>not the one I've always imagined in Greyhawk.

This is why I stopped using AD&D rules. AD&D rules (at least first ed rules anyway) encourages players to be mindless hack and slashers and greedy treasure grabbers. I see no reason why a small daily XP award could not be granted to the rural non-adventuring priest will. I see no good reason why priests could not gain levels 6-9 (~27,000 XP) in a human lifetime. For example, how could Canon Hazen have achieved his 20th and 21st levels as a priests considering that he has been the ruler of Veluna (Per WOG Level 19; Per FTA Level 21). I don't think he was out adventuring. If he was still adventuring, The Isle of the Ape and that little sidebar adventure with Fraaz Urb Luu would be somewhat moot.

We are getting off the population density thread here though...

SNIP
Patrice Forno wrote:

SNIP
>We know of a Powerful Force of Nature : the Druids.
>Maybe the Druids on Oerth do all their possible to restrain Human
>population from rocketting. Maybe they have understood the dangers of
>letting Humanity grow out of control, and are fighting this growth :
>Maybe they don't help peasants with spells that would give them better
>harvests, maybe they restrain themselves from healing the sick, maybe
>they help wild animals against Man (i.e. helping wolves eating
>peasants' cattle), maybe they do all what they can to keep the secrets
>of the Healing with plants stay secrets, etc...

We have some passages that the converse is true. Read about Crystara (priestess of Beory in Furyondy). Crystara actively helps folks. Even with multiplying by 5 we end up with plenty of room for everything (forests, monsters, whatever). Population densities would still be much lower than medieval Europe's.

>IMO, Priests are not very numerous over the Flanaess.
>Following the Demographics calculations from DM Option (page 22), I
>come with: 4 priest (all levels) per 100 habitants, and only 2-3
>priests (level 5+) per 1,000 habitants (assuming that 15% of the

[Text missing]

figured a priests percentage of about 1.25% from Iuz the Evil.

>These figures means IMO that the priests only have a small effect on
>population health. Only 2-3 persons to heal the diseases of 1,000
>habitants, or to create food for them, is to low IMO to fight diseases,
>plagues, malnutrition, the way real Earth Humanity fought these.

Say a plague starts in the City of Willip. Aren't priests from all over Furyondy going to go there to help out or are they gonna remain at home with blinkered eyes? Yes, there will be casualties from a plague, but I don't they would have the same impact as those in medieval Europe.

>The Conclusion :
SNIP
>However, according to FtA who only shows the number of “able bodied
>adults”, I agree that the populations numbers should be multiplied by
>5, even if that gives low population densities comparing to our Earth.

I'm happy with x5 Patrice. I don't want to use an area based modifying factor because it will change the intended power between nations.

>I would be curious to know the Gygax / Kuntz explanation for those low
>population numbers...

I asked Rob this question a little while back. My question:

>>Another question: What do you think of the population thread? Was it
>>really intended for the Flanaess to be so underpopulated or had Gary
>>never sat down, grabbed a calculator, and figured what would be
>>reasonable population density figures?R. Kuntz's answer:
>I figure that the latter surmise is closer to the mark. Hell, themselves
>middle ages saw a crowding of cities and their surrounding
>countrysides but not as much density in rural areas. Same as today.
>Average spreads don't always get across the real population jams of
>cities. Note Rauxes in WG8, for instance. The place is packed and
>was due for a plague! But much of the Great Kingdom is thin in
>population. No new news there perhaps.
A very good post....
E.H. Brunson wrote:

>1. What is the Climate of the Flanaess? Temperate? Tropical? How
>long is the growing season?

Similar to Europe's/US's I believe. Dragon Magazine #68 had an article written I believe by a meteorologist? Real met data was used in the tables developed. This was officially adopted.

>2. Technical innovations?
>a. Do the peasents of the Flanaess use a heavy plow which could
>turn over the ground in a single pass, or a light plow which the
>peasent usually had to press his foot upon in order for the plow to go
>any depth into the ground and he also had to make two or three passes
>on.

Unknown. FYI: in the middle ages an acre was the area of land which could be plowed by a team of oxen in one day.

>b. What form of crop rotation is used, if any? Two-field or

[More text missing]

Unknown. I think we should look to medieval Europe for those answers. Namely 1/3 of fields are to be layed fallow. Crop rotation and benefits of clover and alfafa are unkown.

>c. Are water mills in use? How about windmills? These greatly
>reduced the time to grind the harvested grain. In addition, they could
>be used to drive saws, process cloth, press oil, brew beer, provide
>power for iron forges, and crush pulp for the manufacturing of paper.

We have the doomgrinder. So yes, i'd say we have windmills in the Flanaess. This is not unreasonable if we look at medieval Europe and note that we have technology such as field plate in the Flanaess.

>d. Here are other innovations. The padded horse collar, which
>didn't chock the horse to death while plowing a field. Before its
>development slow oxen were the primary farming animal.

Wasn't the padded horsecollar a later invention? Me gut feel tells me farmers still plow with oxen in the Flanaess.

>horseshoes, which protected the horses hooves allowing it to work
>longer hours and tandem harnessing, which allowed horses to pull behind
>each other. (By Beory, I hope this last one is used. Otherwise, my
>characters business of a carridge service between Dyver and Greyhawk is
>ruined)

We have the magical item horseshoes of a zephyr, so I'd have to say we've got our shoes horsed in the Flanaess...

>Do peasents on Oerth use wheelbarrows, a great labor saving
>device,

Check out the illustration on page 16 of the Marklands. There's a gent using a wheelbarrow.

>or the harrow, which was a tool drawn over the field after the
>plow to level the soil and mix the seed.

Unknown. When was it invented?

>Is iron widely used in farming? After all iron reinforced all sorts of
>farming tools, most critically, the heavy plow.

This would not be unreasonable using medieval Europe as a comparison.

>Has there been a conserted effort by the peasentry to clear the forest
>and open up new areas for agriculture.

There is no need to clear new fields. The Flanaess is pathetically underpopulated even when you stuff everyone into the grasslands.

SNIP

Ken Barns wrote:

SNIP
>I suppose it depends upon relatively how fertile you see each area of

[Yet more missing text]

>If Nyrond is only of average fertility, then it's population could b
>much smaller than France's. If the area around the Harp, Thelly (?)
>and Nesser rivers are immensely fertile, (more so than the Velverdyva
>and Sheldomar) then yes, the overwhelming demographic weight of the
>Aerdi kingdoms can be justified.

Furyondy and portions of the Nyrond were noted in the Marklands as being highly arable.

SNIP
>>Nyrond and the splintered G. Kingdom have the area to accommodate
>>x5. Furyondy would be no punk nation with a population of 1.8
>>million as compared to Nyrond's 5+ million.... Keoland and Veluna
>>would also exceed 1,000,000.

>But a “no-punk” Furyondy still stands out as a military power, which it
>cannot do without a world-class economy (which in medieval times is
>mostly related to sheer population). Double its relative population
>with respect to Aerdi/Nyrond, and give it a very militaristic society,
>and then it starts to look believable.

>In summary, I think x5 is right in the ballpark for the Flanaess as a
>whole, but does not address the issue of the problematic ratio of
>Aerdi/Nyrond's population compared to the rest of the Flanaess. Giving
>those nations x2.5 (and making Nyrond/Aerdi contain many windswept
>plains used mainly for grazing) has been the quick and dirty method I
>have

The Iron League (primarily Nyrond) has shielded the rest of the Flanaess from the Great Kingdom. The Great Kingdom was ever able to squelch Nyrond. That would have been necessary to get at the lost western sates of Furyondy, Veluna, etc.
R. Kuntz writes:
>Not to mention those monsters again. Monsters have their own way
>(however slight or pronounced) of stifling population growths amongst
>humans, demi-, and humanoids. It would seem to me in a world
>populated by monsters of the type, variety and numbers that the
>D&D/AD&D system denotes, that a better topic question would be:
>”Where are all of those men coming from?” My goodeness. Men die and
>are just reborn again! Let us not count the discrepencies here
>between their numbers and the other gender!

Yes, monsters abound, but they abound around the peripheries of the core nations. Were monsters predating frequently on Furyondy, Nyrond, Urnst, Veluna, etc.? If so where are they coming from? I won't bring up the Marklands...

Jay Simpson wrote:
>Well, when it came time to figure out a population for my girlfriends
>writeup on the Celestine Imperium, we ran into a block. So, out of
>curiosity, how much land does it take to feed one person? In other
>words, if for instance I have a city of 1 million people, how many
>“hexes” of land does that city need to survive?

Quick and dirty:
Assume 2 acres of good farmland is under cultivation for each individual (one big continuous blotch of farmland).

NAME : Gunthar duGascoigne, Baron of Hommlet

[Beginning of post missing]
rescued and married to Jolena (more on that in a moment). These two PCs have been very active politically, and count Thrommel and Gladwell Solan (of Castle Hart, IMC he's a duke, and an on-the-edge member of the Royal Family) as their confidantes.

Gunthar, as you can see, is actually Baron of Hommlet, which was annexed by Furyondy during the Greyhawk Wars. A largish area of the Kron Hills has been declared the Barony (though most of the gnomes there ignore the proclamation, most of the local humans welcome it, seeing it as a measure of protection from the increasingly aggressive Welkwood & Gnarley Forest humanoids).

=== PLAYER INFORMATION ===
Players Name : Paul Sweeney
Player email : N/A
=== CHARACTER INFORMATION ===
(Characters developed using Complete fighters & Complete Paladins handbooks)

NAME : Gunthar duGascoigne, Baron of Hommlet
RACE : Human
SEX : Male
AGE : 32
CLASS : Paladin
LEVEL : 8
XP's : 227 768
ALIGN: LG
HP : 69
AC : -1 (plate mail +3, shield & dex adj.)
THAC0: Base 13 (with “Shadowbane” 6)(+5 magic bonus, +1 str, +1 spec)

Ability Scores
18/27 Strength
15 Dexterity
17 Constitution
12 Intelligence
14 Wisdom
17 Charisma
11 Comeliness

Weapon Proriciency: Blades, heavy lance, light crossbow, horse mace, claymore (2-handed) sword (spec.)

Non-Weapon Proriciency: Horse riding, etiquette, heraldry, swimming, law

MAGIC ITEMS:
Armor : Plate mail +3
Weapons : “Shadowbane” +5 Purifier (Pal. Handbook; turns undead at Pal.'s level, +2 vs undead, +2 to saves regarding undead)
Misc :

EQUIPMENT:
Armor : see above
Weapons : sword (see above), dagger, light crossbow, heavy lance
Misc :

NOTES/ABILITIES:
Special Skills: All Paladin abilities
Languages: Common (literate), Velondi (illiterate)

APPERANCE :
Description: Tall & heavily built, with short cropped hair. Wears a beard. Always has Pelor's symbol somewhere on his person.
Height: 6'3”
Weight: 220 lbs.
Hair: Brown
Eyes: Hazel
Other: Gunthar carries himself tall and regally, with a spring in his step when happy. When tired, or saddened, he will often unconsciously cover his lower face with a hand, or collar, or whatever is around. Nothing overt, mind you, just a left-over from his experiences (see below).

PERSONALITY: Gunthar is a true paladin of Pelor. He is dedicated to bringing light, strength and healing to the people of Hommlet, and has made a name for himself as a wise & just lord. He brings light in the form of truth, attempting to teach his people the ways of Pelor and the Church of Veluna and dispelling superstitions and fears. He brings strength by protecting them from harm. During the Greyhawk Wars, when Hommlet fell under the attack of humanoids from the Gnarley, and evil humans from Nulb banded together to attack, Gunthar led the defence of the village when Rufus was killed by an assassin. Healing is brought by the priests of Pelor Gunthar has encouraged with his building of a chapel and monastery as part of Hommlet Keep.
He is dedicated, too, to protecting Furyondy from harm, and this has recently led him into a dilemma which is currently unresolved. Gunthar is easy-going and cheerful, enjoying the company of Kings and Commoners equally, and able to mingle with both without appearing out-of-place. He is devoted to helping those in need, and a good part of his fortune has gone to the Church of Pelor in Greyhawk to buy food and shelter for refugees from the wars.

HISTORY: Hailing from Verbobonc, originally, Gunthar was blooded in battle in his teens as a banner bearer for a Knight of the Hart during the Battle of Emridy Meadows. From here he entered the order of Pelor's Faithful Sword, or the “Fidellian Knights” as they are more commonly known...a small fighting order of the Church of Veluna. He traveled to Hommlet some years ago, where he met Urath, a young magician from Greyhawk whose master had been killed by bandits in the ruined moathouse north of Hommlet. The two of them teamed up with others and followed the course of the ToEE module, and following that, the Scourge of the Slave Lords module. After rescuing Thrommel, they traveled to Mitrik for the pledging of Thrommel & Jolena. Here, Gunthar swore allegiance to Thrommel, and received a boon from Archcleric Hazen. You see, Gunthar has been hideously scarred by smallpox as a child (original comeliness was 4), but as a reward for rescuing his future son-in-law, Hazen used his clerical abilities to heal the scars, returning Gunthar to normal.
The Greyhawk Wars came in between the modules, during which time they served in the south, fighting for the survival of the good human settlements on the frontier of the Gnarley Forest. As a precaution against further incursions from the south (and also so that Thrommel, as king, would have at least one noble in the south who supported him), Gunthar was made Baron of Hommlet at the end of the war.
Currently, Gunthar is in a quandry. Jolena, it seems, is unable to bear children. Thrommel refuses to take a concubine, as he loves Jolena. Now not many people know this yet, but if it gets out that the future king will not have an heir, all hell will break loose. The southern nobles, already twitchy at the high taxes they've been paying to pay for the war which hardly touched them, would use it as an excuse to push for another to take the throne. The northern nobles, loyal to Belvor and Thrommel, would resist this.
In other words, should this become known, it could precipitate a civil war in Furyondy/Veluna.
Gunthar is unsure of what to do; he is loyal to Thrommel, but he knows that supporting Thrommel as king could well lead to a split kingdom, ripe for Iuz to sweep in and conquer. But he can't bear the thought of betraying his friend and liege...
(God I'm nasty to PCs, aren't I? )

Phil O'Neill

“May I find you with peace and leave you with hope.”