When did Keoland Begin? and a Keoish Dating System

Date: Sun, 02 Jan 00 11:37AM PST
From: Jason Verbitsky Add To Address Book Add To To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] When did Keoland Begin? and a Keoish Dating System

More Details

When did Keoland begin? According to 'canon', we know this much for
certain:

"Keoland was the first major kingdom to be established in Flanaess, the Oeridians and Suloise tribes mingling and joining to build a tolerant and prosperous realm which nominally included many and varied demi-human groups as well."
(World of Greyhawk Guide p.27)

But exactly when? As the first, it is clearly before the Founding of the Great Oeridian Kingdom of Aerdy in -217 CY, 428 OR, 5299 SD. But as it was formed, in part, by Suloise tribes, it would have to be after the Suloise migrations began in -447 CY, 198, 5069 SD. (World of Greyhawk Guide p.9)

CY OR SD Event
-- -- -- -----

-447 198 5069 Suloise migrations begin
} 25 Years
-422 223 5094 Rain of Colorless Fire
} 205 Years

-217 428 5299 Founding of the Great Oeridian Kingdom of Aerdy

So, then, the period in which the Kingdom of Keoland could be founded in can be narrowed down to some 230 years.

It might have been even before the infamous Rain of Colourless fire fell in -422 CY, 223 OR, 5094 SD (World of Greyhawk Guide p.9). But it seems probable that it was later:

"For two centuries the Oerid and Suel battled each other and the fragmenting humanoid hordes for possession of the central area of the Flanaess, ... In a few places the two racial stocks intermixed - notably the Sheldomar Valley where, except for the Hold of the Sea Princes, the peoples of the Kingdom of Keoland,
... are mixed Oerid-Suel stock. ... the [Suel] Houses of Rhola and Neheli - late migrants who settled and held the Sheldomar"
(World of Greyhawk Guide p.8)

This, of course, refers to the time after the Rain of Colourless Fire and before founding of Aerdy. Here the period of *two hundred years* is very significant as it gives us some idea of how long after the migrations began the Kingdom of Keoland was actually established.

Also, the fact that the Rhola and Neheli were late migrants could indicate that the starting date for these two centuries is a bit later. However, this does not necessarily follow as the Suloise and Oeridians could well have been battling before these later Suel tribes migrated.

Though it seems obvious, for completeness sake, I should state this nonetheless: when they say "two centuries" it doesn't necessarily mean 200 years exactly, it is more like two hundred and some odd years, or even 'about two hundred years' (which could even mean almost, if taken loosely).

So what does all of this give us for a window in which to place the founding?

CY OR SD Event
-- -- -- -----

-447 198 5069 Suloise migrations begin
} 25 Years
-422 223 5094 Rain of Colorless Fire
} 205 Years
-247 398 5269 Approximate end of Suel-Oerid Battles

? ? ? Founding of Keoland } 30 Years

-217 428 5299 Founding of the Great Oeridian Kingdom of Aerdy

This would narrow it down to a 30 year period -- if one wants to have the Kingdom of Keoland founded after the battles have ended. Perhaps founded as a way of making peace between the various warring tribes who were sick of fighting and dying.

Alternately, the Kingdom of Keoland instead may well have been founded before the Oerid-Suel battles had ended and taken part in them (fighting various Oerid and/or Suel tribes/nations). In which case the 230 year window is still the best 'canon' narrowing.

Thus the question arises * do we want to have the Kingdom of Keoland founded in the beginning, middle, or end of this warring period of the Suloise and Oeridian tribes? *

Each of these could work for the Living Greyhawk campaign. But we should reach a consensus and decide upon one and then narrow it down to a specific year.

Many of us have already set our own 'unofficial' and 'uncannonical' dates for Keoland's founding in fans' campaigns:

CY OR SD Founding in the Campaign of or Canon Events
-- -- -- -------------------------------------------

-519 125 4996 Chris Jarvis

-447 198 5069 Suloise migrations begin

-422 223 5094 Rain of Colorless Fire

-316 329 5200 Patrick Franke's Keoish Timeline

-268 377 5248 Scott Rennie's Sheldomar Timeline

-247 398 5269 Approximate end of Suel-Oerid Battles

-217 428 5299 Founding of the Great Oeridian Kingdom of Aerdy

-200 445 5316 Kirt Wackford's Geopolitical History of Keoland
(says 'by' this time but gives no exact date)

192 836 5707 Issak Haywood's Empire of Keoland

In choosing this specific year, I think that it would be quite useful for it to be one that is easy to calculate based off of the CY calendar (and if possible other dating systems as well) so that conversion is as simple and painless as possible -- thus a number that works out as evenly as possible should be employed.

For your reference, here is how years are converted to/from 3 of the various dating systems used in the World of Greyhawk setting:

-CY -> SD +5516
CY -> SD +5515

-CY -> OR + 645
CY -> OR + 644

OR -> SD +4871

Events could be calculated from the founding of the Kingdom of Keoland (such as the Romans used for from the founding of Rome) and a new dating system could be established -- one that relies not upon the Aerdian system of the Great Kingdom which came after Keoland itself was founded. What calendar would have the Keolanders themselves used before the Great Kingdom's influence spread so far and wide? Would they not have kept it? Even if they later adopted the Aerdian method they must
have used something until then! It is logical (although by no means certain) that the Suel and Oeridians would have reached some sort of comprise rather than using one or the other, or both, of their own dating systems. I would call this new dating system the "Keoish Chronology" and abbreviate it as "KC".

With all of the above in mind as a framework, let us discuss exactly when Keoland should be founded (in a manner that is the most consistent with established Greyhawk canon) and if a KC dating system should be employed from that point in time.

Jason
>:)

* * * * * * * * * * * * *
His Dread and Awful Presence,
Jason Verbitsky
hierax@home.com
http://hierax.com/greyhawk/

Re: merchant routes

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] merchant routes
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:57:29 -0700
From: Chris Anderson
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

But it wasn't always this way. Before the Naelax line, Aerdy was a thriving kingdon, and that would include roads, in my thinking. Not to mention that if you have a far-flung empire (remember that Furyondy was their western border), you need some method of travel in that empire, even if it's only for troops.

And that doesn't count trade routes between the major areas of Aerdy. I think that the Great Kingdom absolutely has to have roads and trade routes, even if they're left over from previous regimes.

Roads don't go away. Neither do trade routes, no matter what Ivid may say officially.

--
Chris Anderson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Doubikin [mailto:doubikin@rh.net]
> Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 4:33 PM
> To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] merchant routes
>
> I think the map is closer to accurate than you think. In Ivid The Undying and I will quote
>
> " Foreign coinage (provincial coinage is not regarded as foreign) is not accepted in Aerdy outside of the eastern fringe lands where trade is still conducted with foreign nations, such as the Twin Cities, Rel
> Astra, Ountsy, etc. Also, it is accepted in a few parts of Ahlissa where piracy brings foreign gold into the land. In lands where such coin is accepted, it is devalued by 5-20% (5x1d4) for the purpose of purchasing goods or exchange for Aerdy coin. The one exception is the Sea Barons, who
> accept foreign coins with an exchange penalty of only 2%.
>
> In some areas of Aerdy coinage is not accepted at all, or goods are scarce and expensive; the gazetteer chapters give details."
>
> I would think that after such a conflict the current government would not try to keep foriengers out, Ivid is a lunitic probly thinking "hey foreigner actually means spy's. There fore I must keep the spy's out of
> the cities so the enemy will not know the size of my army's. That way they won't attack".
>
> I really don't think that having a road would help too much in a case such
> as that.
>
> Just my 2 cents
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrice Forno
> To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Date: Monday, May 10, 1999 4:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] merchant routes
>>
> >Hello,
> >
> >-----Message d'origine-----
> >Patrice "Fountain of Info" Forno wrote about road maps:
> >>There is an article in GHBest #9 about trade roads in eastern flanaess by QSamantha.
> >>>I stumbled upon a map drawn by someone (frankly I don't know by whom...shame on me)that details the major routes of the Flannaes.
> >>You can find it at http://www.avalon.net/~manzabar/hawk.html
> >
> >I looked at the road map at Manzabar's site again after reading this, and was dismayed to see that the map must be incomplete. I find it inconceivable that the Great Kingdom has NO roads in it! Surely, the empire that once spanned the Flanaess would not have built only roads in its
> tributaries, and I also refuse to accept that roads were a recent invention, and the Great Kingdom just doesn't have them yet. The eastern half of the Flanaess should be criss-crossed with long, straight roads.
> >--------------------
> >
> >IMO the map is both incomplete and non canon.
> >
> >All the Best,
> >
> >________________________________________________
> >Patrice Forno - Marseille - France
> >froon@pacwan.fr
> >Liste de diffusion sur Greyhawk (taerre@netultra.net)
> >
> >Thin Greyhawk Page : http://perso.pacwan.fr/froon/GH/FrGRey.htm
> >French WiF Page : http://perso.pacwan.fr/froon/WiF/wif.htm

Pre-War skirmishes and WG8 (was: When did the REAL Greyhawk Wars begin?)

Priority: Normal
Date sent: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:29:07 -0400
Send reply to: Keith Horsfield afn09454@afn.org
From: Keith Horsfield afn09454@AFN.ORG
Subject: [GREYTALK] Pre-War skirmishes and WG8 (was: When did the REAL Greyhawk Wars begin?)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Remember this post:

> So you think it is a trick question, see Dragon #65.
>
> Answer: 578 CY – Kingdom of Nyrond, Prelacy of Almor and their
>allies proclaim war on the Great Kingdom.
>
> Oh, and btw the Grandwood Forest was possibly in for a world of
>hurt in 578 CY, see Dragon #63.

Here is more fuel to add to the pre-FtA maneuvering.

From WG8: Fate of Istus, pg. 69 (center column, 1st full paragraph)

“Ivid has become more obsessed with extending his lands in order to form the “Greater Aerdi Empire” ever since his declaration of war against Almor and Nyrond. The Herzog’s subsequent blunting of the armies of the Golden League (Nyrond, Almor and those countries comprising the Iron League; see Guide to the World of Greyhawk, “An Overview of Political Divisions”) has added only fresh fuel to his monomania. The aforementioned battle(s) transpired after the events detailed in T1-4 (The Temple of Elemental Evil) and spanned two years, ending in a minor strategic victory for Ivid’s field army under the leadership of the Herzog, and seeing the withdrawal of Almorian and Nyrondese armies to the west of the Harp River.”

Taking all of the above into account, the following might be surmised:

578 – Mutual declaration of war; No actual campaigning due to the Golden League trying to come to some census of the proper strategy and Ivid having to deal with the insurrection of the Grandwood Forest.

579 – ToEE takes place (need to reread this module to see if there is any mention of events to the east); Campaigns begin between the GK and the Golden League.

580 (late) or 581 (early) – The Golden League retreats behind the Harp River.

This also leads to a narrowing of when WG8 takes place:

Under the section for Rel Mord:

The Iron Fist Guild is founded in 504 CY. When describing the Guild’s building it is mentioned that mercenaries have been gathering there for over 70 years.

With the understanding that WG8 is a transitional module prior to the wars, this makes sense and places it between 576 and 582 (each over 70 years but less than 80). The above notes on the war with the Golden League further narrow down the window to 580 to 582.

There are other clues as to the timeframe of WG8, one of the best so far is that Ivid has replaced Xaene with Karloolck six months ago. Anyone know when this took place?

Comments, suggestions, opinions?

Keith Horsfield
Member Team OS/2
“To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail”
-----
E-mail: afn09454@afn.org
Home page: http://www.afn.org/~afn09454/

Re: Crook of Rao and the Blackspear Chamber

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Crook of Rao and the Blackspear Chamber
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 21:33:04 -0500
From: John C Wright
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

> Certainly, although the case is made below concerning the amount
> of human forces available to Drax, and the description of Rel ASTRA goes
> to some length to imply many instances of neutrality amongst its
> inhabitants. As well, nowhere has it been expounded in print as to how
> long Drax had possession of the _crook_.

In response to my comments about the investigation of the _crook_ powers, I did state it would take an exorbiant amount of time to safely learn all of its secrets. Drax had at most a bit over a decade, using a rough timeline of 575 the _crook_ is retrieved from Isle of the Ape and lost....and then recovered by 587 and used in the ceremony to drive out the fiends. Assuming of course, that the ceremony requires more than a simple setup (especially when driving out all of the fiends world-wide), and also assuming that Tenser doesn't lose the _crook_ the day after it is recovered, then Drax has in all likeliehood perhaps 8 years of time with the _crook_. Ample time to learn many of its powers, but far from enough time to learn them all. Remember that simple identifying and legend lores are not likely to reveal much if anything about artifacts.

>
> >Providing that Drax did learn something though, he knew that although he
> could
> >call on fiendish aid from the fiend-sage, he had nowhere near the amount
> of
> >fiends to rely upon as Iuz and Ivid did. In addition, by having his
> military
> >primarily human and led by humans, Drax would be in an advantageous
> position
> >should all other fiends be sent away. Iuz's armies would be undermined,
> Ivid's
> >armies would be leaderless in many places, as well as lacking his
> shock-troops.
> >
> >This was almost entirely a win-win situation for Drax. By bartering the
> item
> >away to a force that he knew would use it for the removal of fiends,
> Drax got
> >just what he wanted out of the item, and a crateful of powerful magic to
> boot.
> Excellent logic in display here, until one reaches the timeline
> as prepared by Master Moore within "GH: tAB". Throughout the text (truly
> beginning on p. 27), Rel Astra is painted in bold colors as a "Free City"
> bent on expanding its defensive capabilities against a far-stronger
> Overking Xavener (UKoA). From the events presented, were this truly
> Drax's intent and mindset, he appeared to have taken leave of his
> faculties whence the time to act was upon him. In short, I'd given grave
> considerations to Drax's position in the original theorization, with this
> but one undermining issuance against his primacy in the matter.

Failed to act when the time was upon him? Do you mean he failed to act when the fiends were cast out? If so, we must look at the repercussions which occured as soon as the fiends were cast out. Almost immeadiately, the city of Rauxes was under siege by all the contenders to the throne. This is most likely a result of Ivid having half of his intellect, or a portion of his ability driven from him by the power of the _crook_. (This is based on many rumors as to a possible demonic/devilish bloodline, both in the online Ivid the Undying supplement, and the very well-written (yet non-canon) History of the Great Kingdom)). Drax, being the manipulator that he is, and preferring defense over offense, held back and waited for the dust to settle (he knew he was not the only one wanting the Overking dead...but he did know he was the one person he wanted to most survive the fall of the Overking). Now the dust has
settled and he has expanded his region of influence slowly, but fast enough that he is still a very powerful force to be reckoned with.

John Wright

Re: The Educated Flanaess (still long)

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:04:54 GMT
From: Paul Looby
Subject: Re: The Educated Flanaess (still long)

>Paul wrote that:
> >>> In Rel Astra certainly - Old Oeridian rules the roost, though in places
>like Eastfair or Rel Deven, Common has more of a foothold <<<
>So does Drax the Invulnerable only speak Old Oeridian?

Probably yes - but Common as well. I was referring more to the Colleges. My impression of the city at large is that the people speak both Common and Old Oeridian - but some might take a very French attitude to Common speakers - refusing to speak it to them, though they know full well how to.

>Is the "decadence" of Eastfair represented in its using Common for scholarly work?

From a stuffy old Rel Astran scholar's point of view, yes - amongst other things....

>Why Rel Deven as a progressive place? With a Cranden ruler, I wonder if Rel Deven might be more traditional than any other Aerdian city?

This is possible - but its had to deal with more of the ups and downs of Aerdi history directly than Rel Astra. As with the Cranden nobles this probably led to a fracturing of the scholarly community - those which retreated into the past and traditions, and those which embraced the changes and adapted. Rel Astra too has inputs of new thoughts and ideas - though its port and trade - and it it these new ideas and the need to change which drive the younger scholars there in their bid to over turn the dusty morter-boards and capes at the top, IMO

>So Trinity was rebuilt at least once between 1592 and the 1700s.

Or was rehoused on the same site at least - and the older buildings were subsequently demolished and built upon. I don't recall any records of the College being sacked during upheavals such as the rebellion in 1641, Cromwell's devestations in the late 1640's or in the Williamite-Jacobite wars of the 1690's - which is not to say such did not occuer. (Trinity is my alma mater btw, if you hadn't already guessed). :)

>However, I see the other buildings as simply being purchased over the centuries as Grey College grew to need more space. In contrast the School of Clerkship was a planned campus. Any flaws with this development?

Seems plausible.

>Paul wrote:
> >>> Rauxes probably had or still has extensive lore in the remains of its libraries and vaults. And let's not forget Pontylver and Mentrey. <<<

>I _have_ forgotten Pontlyver. What is it noteworthy for?

Ivid the Undying mentions that it was a city known for its sages, scholars and learning before it went up in flames during the madness of the Wars.

>Yet Fiend-Sage aside, I consider Rel Astra more of a mercantile place than a city of learning. Will the details for its rennaissance be explicated please?

It is now and probably always will be - but in its heyday it was not only for a time the capital of Aerdy, but also the gateway of the Great Kingdom at its height to the Solnor, Hepmonaland and the Azure Sea (until later competition from the Nyrondese, Almorian and South Province ports). At that time its wealth and drive also fueled as a spin off its scholastic achievements. As the Great Kingdom declined, and the Aerdi turned inwards concerned with internal turmoils, thought stagnated. Money became more important than knowledge to the people of Rel Astra as it was a more tangible asset in troubled times. This petty small mindedness also infected the colleges - and so bred the current dusty order - who refuse to embrace change and cling to old, certain, but ultimately stagnant ways.

Rel Astra's sagely rennaissance is only just beginning (if it has the chance continue is another question). In the last decades of the Great Kingdom as was, Rel Astra was already slowly drifting from the orbit of Rauxes. The city would have to fend for itself - no longer be a satellite, but be the great city it is. This attitude has bloomed since the wars and has infected the younger scholars, who take an interst not only in the halcyon days of Rel Astran scholarship, but in the means by this glorious end was achieved - by looking outward at the world.

>Eastfair is the largest city of Northern Aerdy, so having colleges there works well.

One maybe two at most - dominated by the Hextorites.

>Okay so Radigast City is a proposed Rennaissance Italy, and Belissica gains the nickname Medici? ;) Again I suggest throwing some Eleanor of Aquitaine into that Countess!

Well - I'm not sure about a Rennaissance, entailing all the historical baggage that that word brings with it, but certainly the large trade cities of the Nyr Dyv have not only wealth, and exposure to diverse cultures, influances and ideas, but also have become the home to large numbers of refugees from the Wars. This has many parallels with the Italian city states of around the 14th and 15th centuries. The Nyr Dyv cities, like the Italian cities, though to a somewhat lesser extent, are also the heirs to a proud(ish) Imperial cultural past (before it turned to complete decandence and evil) - that of the Great Kingdom, which once encompassed them all. So yes, I see, Radigast, Dyvers, Greyhawk, and Leukish to an extent as a
hotbed for new ideas in the Central Flanaess. Rel Astra too may have its chance if the hints at exploration from its port and by the Sea Barons to Hepmonaland and beyond are brought to fruition.

>And "skeptics" in Nellix, tsk, tsk. My but this Flanaess has been rather educated all along. "But they wear _pants_!" :P

Some of them have been educated - yes. Most aren't. I'd see the average Ekbirian on the street having a greater appreciation of the world and learning than your average person in Radigast or Chendl or Dyvers.

>Regarding Velunan attitudes, I too like the idea of prejudiced, righteous, and "superior" Velunan attitudes. Whereas the Ketites would be considered barbarians, the Furyondians (and Bisselites) are treated as children, and the Keolanders and Verboboncians are contemptible. However I wouldn't want
>to overdo it. Rao is not Pholtus, after all.

Hmm.. that might be a bit harsh - remember the Velunese and the Furyondians were almost fellow country men for a while. I think the Velunese would have sympathy for the Bisselites - who've had to put up with not only the Ketites, but the Keoish. The Keoish might be regarded with a degree of suspicion, given their past (the Short War), or exasperation (given their dithering while nations fell) - but generally perhaps as good, if arrogant, people with wrong priorities (if only they were more like us - which ironically is probably exactly what the Keoish think of the Velunese).

>To my knowledge there is close to nothing published regarding Daern.
>However, Irongate does seem centrally enough located to be her historical home base. I want Daern's symbol to be chiseled onto the Velunan bridges of Caronis and the old Ritensa Bridge as well as several cities within the South Province and Darmen Lands of old.

So that's Irongate, southern Aerdy, Furyondy, Veluna and perhaps the matematical schools of the West. hmm..quite a journey - and an intersting tale no doubt.

>I can relate that Elayne Mystica was overheard at a dinner party explaining something that she saw in a Daern sketchbook. It was something about a way for ships to cross the isthmus between the southern Vast Swamp where it meets Spine Ridge. Completely fantatical and impractical, of course, but such a route would render the SB Tilva Strait blockade useless . . .

Bah - probably some nonsense about digging a path through a mountain or some such. It is said that the good lady was partial to Dwur drinking establishments (a rumour, you understand) and Dwur spirits. Cynics have cited this as the inspiration for some of her wilder flights of fantasy. :P

>Regarding troubadours, it seems like Countess Belissica is only a latter day saint when compared with the "dimming memory of the noonlight of Loriaelor!"
>Alas for Nevondeer! ::raises chalice::

For sure much of the lore that yet remained of that great realm was surely lost in the sack of Nevondeer. Nonetheless, the echo of its songs linger yet in the streets of Radigast and Trigol, Brotton and Midmeadow, Borneven and Rel Mord, lilting from the lips of poor Tenha bards singing for coppers. Though beauty fades, the embers glow long among the ashes.

paul

Forbidden Lore

From joe.katzman@magic.ca Wed Oct 25 08:16:17 1995
Organization: Magic Online Services Inc.
Subject: Forbidden Lore
To: greytalk@MIT.EDU
Priority: normal
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BTW, is it just me, or is everyone receiving two copies of everything?

> My Ivid manuscript mentions _the Casket of Abyssal Bone_ in one single
> sentence, stating that it is an artifact given to the Naelax overkings
> by Baalzephon. Do you have any more information about this artifact?
> The fact that it is _abyssal_ bone had me confused, since the artifact
> was granted by baatezu.

Several hypotheses are advanced in the paragraph you quoted immediately before your question. The "abyssal" can either mean the artifact is from the Abyss (and so captured in the Blood Wars), or that it uses the bones of Abyssal creatures as part of its magic (in which case it's a construct of someone's).


> Also, I can't seem to find info on _the Unholy Bloodshield_, except that
> it can activate the Screaming Column in Rauxes. Do you know of any
> additional powers?

None are mentioned anywhere in my sources.

With respect to these questions, the Dark 8, etc., there comes a point where you must simply use your creativity. These are really things players are NOT supposed to know, and TSR has deliberately left them vague for that reason. The Dark 8's powers are undefined. Why? Because PCs should NEVER wind up facing one of them directly, any more than they should have been able to face an Archduke in 1st Edition.

Ed Greenwood goes into this regarding the rulers of Hell in his Dragon #74 & 75 articles, and it's still true. The Dark Eight will just keep sending servants - human, fiendish, or otherwise - to deal with the PCs who pose a threat, and will work through intermediaries to ensure that the true employer is not known. They have a LOT of servants, and when mercenaries are added the figure becomes very high indeed.

Unless the players are being looked after in a semi-direct fashion by an interested patron power, this is pretty much game over. Sooner or later, one wave or another is bound to get lucky, or the PCs eventually ascend to quasi-deityhood or become divine servants, and are thus able to deal on equal terms. (This is the slim danger for the Dark Eight: in the fires of such awful adversity, that which does not break may be forged into greatness.) Either way, however, your campaign ends.

The only way to encounter one of these beings is to summon him, a perilous course indeed as the history of the Naelax line shows. The mage must bargain, and the price will be steep. Attack is irrelevant at that point, earning an immortal and hideously powerful enemy even if the summoner wins and banishes the fiend. Magical imprisonment, meanhwile, is likely to be looked upon with some annoyance by the other 7, who will take steps. Unless you're in Zagyg's power-class, I wouldn't try it. There's a very good reason stuff like this is considered "forbidden lore."

Now, this does not mean that PCs can't have a lot of fun bashing the servants of such creatures, or foiling their Prime Material plots. This isn't necessarily easy, of course - take a look at the arch-mage Karoolck. Killing him in a permanent fashion would take a whole high-level campaign, and he's just a major human lackey. This won't exactly make one friends in the Hells, but the Dark Eight have much larger concerns and aren't all that likely to intervene if things go awry. If they did, they would risk the wrath of the pawnmasters on other planes, and that would be serious.

So the defeat is taken in poor grace, and the Great Game of the planes goes on. The PCs may get a potshot at them now and again if the opportunity presents itself, but nothing really serious. Their deeds will have earned them planar allies of their own and limited protection in the form of warnings and other forms of assistance.

Back to the question of the Dark Eight and their personal powers... The great danger of going after The Dark Eight themselves is that it voids such protection, being outside the bounds of the Game. An analogy: when the USSR's Arab allies got thrashed in the Mid-East, the Soviets did not try to invade Israel. Sure, they bankrolled some terrorist movements, and propped up their regional allies, but anything more would have invited a suicidal confrontation with the US. Not worth it.

A similar dynamic applied to the US and Cuba. Basing soviet missiles was a causus belli, but otherwise you'll notice that after the Missile Crisis, Cuba was threatened in far less direct fashion. Now, this would have changed totally if Cuba had decalred war on the USA, and started sinking ships off of Florida and firing (conventional) missiles into Miami. What are the chances that Soviet protection would have saved their butts from a full-scale US assault then? Right -- about zero.

Consider the parallels to this analogy in terms of a D&D campaign, and what that might mean.

Planar politics is very, very similar to the superpower manoeverings of the Cold War, because it has such similar underlying drivers. Once you understand the history and the parallels, it's much easier to work similar dynamics into your game and officiate the results. Just one more case of "the more you know, the more you can imagine."

--Thalion Envinyatar

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Possibilities of the Artifact

Subject: [GREYTALK] Possibilities of the Artifact
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:13:10 -0400
From: Archlord
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Here is an interesting way to create a sensible sequence of events that explains the disappearance of the Machine of Lum the Mad from Oerth?..and how to work it into the Vortex of Madness adventure.

The Wizard Karoolck, having been recently deposed of his power due to the absence of Overking, has now been devising a way to re-establish his power base. Having suffered losses in the Holocaust of Rauxes, the magical battle between the nobility of the kingdom, in their vie for the malachite throne, Karoolck has been looking for a means of advancing his position in the new Kingdoms of Aerdy. Together with his Baatezu ally Baalzephon, they have manipulated the Diviner Anaranth into researching the Machine of Lum the Mad. The machine has not been actively used since Xaene experimented with its powers and Karoolck knows that it will be the key to future successes in Rauxes and other parts of the former Great Kingdom. Due to the intense fear Karoolck has of his former master Xaene, the archmage seeks the secrets of
the Machine slowly and carefully. Sensing traps and other maladies, the archmage combs the Machine meticulously to ensure that it power will not consume him.

Recent events, as described in the adventure, The Vortex of Madness, have caused the Machine to be thrown from Oerth, or perhaps it may have been caused by the presence of the Crook of Rao or the Mace of Saint Cuthbert. In any case, it currently resides in the Outer Planes and has been reunited with its former master?

Faced with defeat before his plans have a chance to manifest, Karoolck decides to rely on the forces of good to retrieve the Machine from its extra planar lair. Deep with the bowels of Rifter Castle, Anaranth studies the mystery of the Machines disappearance and passes this information to Karoolck.

Now Karoolck has a golden opportunity. He must devise a scheme to lure his enemies to Rifter Castle. In inviting them to his keep, Karoolck, the Elite Imperial Regulars, the Fiend Knights of Doom, and the Companion Guard will have an opportunity to slaughter as many would-be goodly adventurers that would dare storm Rifter Castle, the refuge of Ivid III.

The archmage will flood fake documents and a false story into Nyrond, Furyondy, Veluna, Celene, Ratik, that a warlord of the Former Great Kingdom is about to unleash the powers of an ancient Artifact upon the forces of good. The story will discuss how this artifact has been harnessing energies of the lower planes to fuel the destructive power of the artifact. This should surely lure the forces of good into action.

After depopulating the land of as many adventurers as possible, he will leave the battle during a time when a promising group of adventurers comes along. If they appear to be gaining ground or wining the conflict, Karoolck will give order to the Imperial Regulars and the Companion guard to fall back and strategically retreat to other portions of the keep. In a well staged effort to give an adventuring group access to Rifter Castle, the guard will put up token resistance to the progression of the adventuring party. In their defeat of the castle guard, they will eventually gain access to the lower levels of the castle. Here they will face the Fiend
Knights and either defeat them or be destroyed. In the chance that the party is successful, they will eventually penetrate the lab where a disguised Karoolck and Anaranth are working.

The final room will be a cross between a diviners research library and an artificers lab. In the middle of the opposing wall will be an unstable swirling color pool (that leads to Limbo). In this room will be the two Archmages (Karoolck and Anaranth) and the party of adventurers. The mages will claim to have arrived recently to stop the madman and his crazy artifact, but in a magical duel, the warlord mad mad escaped through a portal he made with the machine. The mages will have used some illusionary magic to create some battle damage upon their persons The mages will relate that his final words were seemingly incoherent ramblings about the deaths of kings and the oppression of all that is good. ?We think he may use the
transportation magic of the artifact to enter Chedl or Rel Mord and unleash
destruction.? .

?If you are able to return the artifact to us, we know the proper incantations and rituals to render it inert. You would doing us all a favor by retrieving the out of control item and ending the inconvenience of the madman Warlord.

The party has to enter the portal and arrive in Limbo.

When the party returns through the portal (or however individual DMs want to do this) Karoolck and his companion will attack the party in full force with the remaining guard in an effort to force the retreat of the party and retain control of the Machine of Lum the Mad.

Forces of Rifter Castle

Elite Imperial Regulars (200)
AC 0; MV 12; F4; HP 50; Thaco 14; #AT 3/2; Dam by weapon type +6; SA nil; SD nil;
Equipment: Bastard sword, body shield, heavy dagger, flail, pike
Superiorly trained soldiers, many whom are veterans from the Greyhawk Wars, wear fine chainmail, carry a variety of superior quality Oeridan weaponry, and brandish the symbol of the Great Kingdom on their shields. The symbol is a yellow spiral sun on a blue background.

Companion Guard (20)
AC ?4 (platemail+2, shield proficiency, dex 16); MV 12; F7; HP 80; #AT 2; Dam 2d4+8 (bastard sword+2), d6+9 (mace); d6 +5 (shield), 2d4+8 (flail) SA nil; SD nil; MR 15%; Equipment potions of extra-healing, fire-breath, flying, speed

The elite shock troopers and cavalry of the former Great Kingdom. They also brandish the old symbol of heraldry on their shields. These are the most well trained legions of the Flanaess.

Companion Guard Captains (2)
AC ?4 (fiend-plate +1, shield proficiency, dex 18): MV 12; F13; HP 120; #AT 3;
Dam d10+8 longsword, d8+ 6 Body Shield, 2d4+8 Flail, d4+10 heavy daggers; SA grand mastery, critical hits on rolls of 16; SD immune to fire, poison, iron, and suffer half damage from gas and cold; MR 45%

Fiend Knights (15)
AC ?7 (shield proficiency, Plate-mail +3, dex 18); MV 12; F9; HP 115; Thaco 6; #AT 2; Dam d10+10 (two-handed sword+3, mastery); SA critical hits on a roll of 16; SD +3 or better weapon to hit, immune to sleep, charm, hold, and illusion/phantasm spells 4th level or less; MR 20%