Showing posts with label Fate of Istus. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Fate of Istus. Show all posts
Saturday, December 21, 2024
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
Pre-War skirmishes and WG8 (was: When did the REAL Greyhawk Wars begin?)
Priority: Normal
Date sent: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:29:07 -0400
Send reply to: Keith Horsfield afn09454@afn.org
From: Keith Horsfield afn09454@AFN.ORG
Subject: [GREYTALK] Pre-War skirmishes and WG8 (was: When did the REAL Greyhawk Wars begin?)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Remember this post:
> So you think it is a trick question, see Dragon #65.
>
> Answer: 578 CY – Kingdom of Nyrond, Prelacy of Almor and their
>allies proclaim war on the Great Kingdom.
>
> Oh, and btw the Grandwood Forest was possibly in for a world of
>hurt in 578 CY, see Dragon #63.
Here is more fuel to add to the pre-FtA maneuvering.
From WG8: Fate of Istus, pg. 69 (center column, 1st full paragraph)
“Ivid has become more obsessed with extending his lands in order to form the “Greater Aerdi Empire” ever since his declaration of war against Almor and Nyrond. The Herzog’s subsequent blunting of the armies of the Golden League (Nyrond, Almor and those countries comprising the Iron League; see Guide to the World of Greyhawk, “An Overview of Political Divisions”) has added only fresh fuel to his monomania. The aforementioned battle(s) transpired after the events detailed in T1-4 (The Temple of Elemental Evil) and spanned two years, ending in a minor strategic victory for Ivid’s field army under the leadership of the Herzog, and seeing the withdrawal of Almorian and Nyrondese armies to the west of the Harp River.”
Taking all of the above into account, the following might be surmised:
578 – Mutual declaration of war; No actual campaigning due to the Golden League trying to come to some census of the proper strategy and Ivid having to deal with the insurrection of the Grandwood Forest.
579 – ToEE takes place (need to reread this module to see if there is any mention of events to the east); Campaigns begin between the GK and the Golden League.
580 (late) or 581 (early) – The Golden League retreats behind the Harp River.
This also leads to a narrowing of when WG8 takes place:
Under the section for Rel Mord:
The Iron Fist Guild is founded in 504 CY. When describing the Guild’s building it is mentioned that mercenaries have been gathering there for over 70 years.
With the understanding that WG8 is a transitional module prior to the wars, this makes sense and places it between 576 and 582 (each over 70 years but less than 80). The above notes on the war with the Golden League further narrow down the window to 580 to 582.
There are other clues as to the timeframe of WG8, one of the best so far is that Ivid has replaced Xaene with Karloolck six months ago. Anyone know when this took place?
Comments, suggestions, opinions?
Keith Horsfield
Member Team OS/2
“To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail”
-----
E-mail: afn09454@afn.org
Home page: http://www.afn.org/~afn09454/
Date sent: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:29:07 -0400
Send reply to: Keith Horsfield afn09454@afn.org
From: Keith Horsfield afn09454@AFN.ORG
Subject: [GREYTALK] Pre-War skirmishes and WG8 (was: When did the REAL Greyhawk Wars begin?)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Remember this post:
> So you think it is a trick question, see Dragon #65.
>
> Answer: 578 CY – Kingdom of Nyrond, Prelacy of Almor and their
>allies proclaim war on the Great Kingdom.
>
> Oh, and btw the Grandwood Forest was possibly in for a world of
>hurt in 578 CY, see Dragon #63.
Here is more fuel to add to the pre-FtA maneuvering.
From WG8: Fate of Istus, pg. 69 (center column, 1st full paragraph)
“Ivid has become more obsessed with extending his lands in order to form the “Greater Aerdi Empire” ever since his declaration of war against Almor and Nyrond. The Herzog’s subsequent blunting of the armies of the Golden League (Nyrond, Almor and those countries comprising the Iron League; see Guide to the World of Greyhawk, “An Overview of Political Divisions”) has added only fresh fuel to his monomania. The aforementioned battle(s) transpired after the events detailed in T1-4 (The Temple of Elemental Evil) and spanned two years, ending in a minor strategic victory for Ivid’s field army under the leadership of the Herzog, and seeing the withdrawal of Almorian and Nyrondese armies to the west of the Harp River.”
Taking all of the above into account, the following might be surmised:
578 – Mutual declaration of war; No actual campaigning due to the Golden League trying to come to some census of the proper strategy and Ivid having to deal with the insurrection of the Grandwood Forest.
579 – ToEE takes place (need to reread this module to see if there is any mention of events to the east); Campaigns begin between the GK and the Golden League.
580 (late) or 581 (early) – The Golden League retreats behind the Harp River.
This also leads to a narrowing of when WG8 takes place:
Under the section for Rel Mord:
The Iron Fist Guild is founded in 504 CY. When describing the Guild’s building it is mentioned that mercenaries have been gathering there for over 70 years.
With the understanding that WG8 is a transitional module prior to the wars, this makes sense and places it between 576 and 582 (each over 70 years but less than 80). The above notes on the war with the Golden League further narrow down the window to 580 to 582.
There are other clues as to the timeframe of WG8, one of the best so far is that Ivid has replaced Xaene with Karloolck six months ago. Anyone know when this took place?
Comments, suggestions, opinions?
Keith Horsfield
Member Team OS/2
“To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail”
-----
E-mail: afn09454@afn.org
Home page: http://www.afn.org/~afn09454/
Wednesday, March 18, 2009
Fate of Istus
Subject: [GREYTALK] Fate of Istus
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:39:57 EDT
From: Tamerlain@AOL.COM
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Patrice writes:
>>Greyhawk the Adventure begins page 3 seems to say it is set between 578 and 582.>>
Paul writes:
>>Sages and savants -
Although I don't have an answer to Creighton's answer, I do have another question. I once saw a glancing reference to FoI as "non-canon" or no longer canon. Is this true, and why?>>
Rainer writes:
>>But the Scarlet Brotherhood adventure inside (the final one, where all the monks leave Oerth) sets it in 576 CY.>>
Lisa writes:
>>Actually, what I said was that some parts of it weren't considered canon.
For instance, the existence of Kara Tur since that was moved to the Realms. So,
at best, you should take stuff within FoI with a grain of salt.>>
(See explanation of this below---Steve)
Paul and all (except Lisa, who already knows all of this!),
At the Greyhawk Summit 98, Team Greyhawk decided that the Fate of Istus was only partially canon (actually, we had talked about this off and on for a while prior to the Summit).
The rationale goes as follows: 1) The new Greyhawk would act as if monks and assassins did *not* disappear (and they didn't disappear in many home campaigns anyway), and Scarlet Brotherhood Monks are not Oriental Monks, therefore the sections in FoI about the Kara Tur monks et al do not apply, 2) Some dates given in the FoI cause potential problems with dates presented in other products...fixes for these have to be made, or the FoI dates should be ignored where these conflicts exist, 3) Some things, like the Istus' plague very well could have happened without disrupting the rest of the setting (the date for this isn't set, but anywhere from 576 to 582 with no trouble.), 4) Some dated historical events are fine and do not conflict with other events in Greyhawk canon (such as the brief siege of Junre by goblins and orcs in the Hateful Wars 9253 [25])
In case 1) nothing is considered canon, in case 2) only some things are considered canon, after work, in case 3) the event is canon, but no date is attached (Roger was functioning within this framework for assigning the dates for FoI in The Adventure Begins), and in case 4) all are canon.
Because of these reasons, Team Greyhawk has a very flexible attitude about FoI as one might imagine (Sean cursed it once within the last two months, even as I was trying to provide rationale for some of its dates. Erik and Roger were generally just laughing...and then they started trying to sort the mess out for the particular dates we were working on... ;)
I'd suggest the following if you want to include the 576 date for FoI:
576-582 CY---Events in the adventure Fates of Istus 9577 [3]
576 CY---Passing of the "Millennium" date predicted by Huro for the Scarlet
Brotherhood, Millennialist Party begins to decline (6091 SD)
Note: See c 490's 11374 [17], 9253 [110]
---Scarlet Brotherhood discovers Weeping Hexagram (6091 SD) 11374
[86]
---beginning of the plague of Istus (although this could go
anywhere between 576 and 582.) (based on 9253 [110], modified by 9577 [3])
Note: this date assignment is not *canon* just my suggestion.
581 CY--- Band of mercenaries penetrate defenses of the Hidden City of the Scarlet Brotherhood (Hesuel Ilshar), and steal an Weeping Hexagram (6096 SD) 11374 [5, 86] NOTE: This event could well easily be modified to be the party of adventurers from FoI (9253), primarily, while the Weeping Hexagram might still have been destroyed, don't automatically assume that the party was as per 11374 [5].
(Compiled dates from the GreyChrondex)
If an early date is assigned to the plague, and the character party is assumed to be the 581 CY bunch that steals the Weeping Hexagram, it is possible to stretch the events of the FoI out over several years, and have the plague act as one of the major pre-cursor event to the Wars.
For campaigns that have used FoI and already have it "set" in time, it would be easy enough to say that parties that successfully got to Hesuel Ilshar and left (alive) were the party that stole the Weeping Hexagram (and move that date if necessary).
This is "retro-fixing" but it does make FoI fit better. To keep the annoying "upgrade" tendencies of FoI out, just work out new rewards/punishments for characters at the end of each chapter that changes the class to 2nd ed. The adventures in FoI aren't bad, and the city descriptions are nice to have, but having the whole thing drive a change to 2nd ed was a poor "setting" decision (even if it might've been a wise marketing one). It is our "Avatar" book, and we should just be glad it was only one adventure.
Steve Wilson
Greyhawk "Sage," Team Greyhawk
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:39:57 EDT
From: Tamerlain@AOL.COM
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Patrice writes:
>>Greyhawk the Adventure begins page 3 seems to say it is set between 578 and 582.>>
Paul writes:
>>Sages and savants -
Although I don't have an answer to Creighton's answer, I do have another question. I once saw a glancing reference to FoI as "non-canon" or no longer canon. Is this true, and why?>>
Rainer writes:
>>But the Scarlet Brotherhood adventure inside (the final one, where all the monks leave Oerth) sets it in 576 CY.>>
Lisa writes:
>>Actually, what I said was that some parts of it weren't considered canon.
For instance, the existence of Kara Tur since that was moved to the Realms. So,
at best, you should take stuff within FoI with a grain of salt.>>
(See explanation of this below---Steve)
Paul and all (except Lisa, who already knows all of this!),
At the Greyhawk Summit 98, Team Greyhawk decided that the Fate of Istus was only partially canon (actually, we had talked about this off and on for a while prior to the Summit).
The rationale goes as follows: 1) The new Greyhawk would act as if monks and assassins did *not* disappear (and they didn't disappear in many home campaigns anyway), and Scarlet Brotherhood Monks are not Oriental Monks, therefore the sections in FoI about the Kara Tur monks et al do not apply, 2) Some dates given in the FoI cause potential problems with dates presented in other products...fixes for these have to be made, or the FoI dates should be ignored where these conflicts exist, 3) Some things, like the Istus' plague very well could have happened without disrupting the rest of the setting (the date for this isn't set, but anywhere from 576 to 582 with no trouble.), 4) Some dated historical events are fine and do not conflict with other events in Greyhawk canon (such as the brief siege of Junre by goblins and orcs in the Hateful Wars 9253 [25])
In case 1) nothing is considered canon, in case 2) only some things are considered canon, after work, in case 3) the event is canon, but no date is attached (Roger was functioning within this framework for assigning the dates for FoI in The Adventure Begins), and in case 4) all are canon.
Because of these reasons, Team Greyhawk has a very flexible attitude about FoI as one might imagine (Sean cursed it once within the last two months, even as I was trying to provide rationale for some of its dates. Erik and Roger were generally just laughing...and then they started trying to sort the mess out for the particular dates we were working on... ;)
I'd suggest the following if you want to include the 576 date for FoI:
576-582 CY---Events in the adventure Fates of Istus 9577 [3]
576 CY---Passing of the "Millennium" date predicted by Huro for the Scarlet
Brotherhood, Millennialist Party begins to decline (6091 SD)
Note: See c 490's 11374 [17], 9253 [110]
---Scarlet Brotherhood discovers Weeping Hexagram (6091 SD) 11374
[86]
---beginning of the plague of Istus (although this could go
anywhere between 576 and 582.) (based on 9253 [110], modified by 9577 [3])
Note: this date assignment is not *canon* just my suggestion.
581 CY--- Band of mercenaries penetrate defenses of the Hidden City of the Scarlet Brotherhood (Hesuel Ilshar), and steal an Weeping Hexagram (6096 SD) 11374 [5, 86] NOTE: This event could well easily be modified to be the party of adventurers from FoI (9253), primarily, while the Weeping Hexagram might still have been destroyed, don't automatically assume that the party was as per 11374 [5].
(Compiled dates from the GreyChrondex)
If an early date is assigned to the plague, and the character party is assumed to be the 581 CY bunch that steals the Weeping Hexagram, it is possible to stretch the events of the FoI out over several years, and have the plague act as one of the major pre-cursor event to the Wars.
For campaigns that have used FoI and already have it "set" in time, it would be easy enough to say that parties that successfully got to Hesuel Ilshar and left (alive) were the party that stole the Weeping Hexagram (and move that date if necessary).
This is "retro-fixing" but it does make FoI fit better. To keep the annoying "upgrade" tendencies of FoI out, just work out new rewards/punishments for characters at the end of each chapter that changes the class to 2nd ed. The adventures in FoI aren't bad, and the city descriptions are nice to have, but having the whole thing drive a change to 2nd ed was a poor "setting" decision (even if it might've been a wise marketing one). It is our "Avatar" book, and we should just be glad it was only one adventure.
Steve Wilson
Greyhawk "Sage," Team Greyhawk
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)