Subj: Re: [GREYTALK] GH WARS
Date: 98-08-04 17:07:18 EDT
From: froon@HOL.FR (Patric Forno)
Sender: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (The GREYtalk Discussion List)
Reply-to: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (The GREYtalk Discussion List)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Hello Jason, Roger and the list,
-- Message d’origine –
>If you’d like to discuss the events of the Greyhawk Wars with someone and
>work on it as a team, I’d certainly be willing to bounce ideas back and
>forth with you. In particular, I’m very interested in the chronology of the
>Fall of the Sea Princes for my _Saga of Saltmarsh_.
>
Jason, I wanted to answer you privately, but I thought I might get helped better if I mailed the whole GH community. After all, GH is there for this purpose !
I also mailed this to Roger Moore, because I suspect him of having want I want (an Official GH WARS Timeline).
Sorry, nothing on the Sea Princes from me (there is close to nothing concerning dates in the official material).
I have an enormous problem with the GH WARS : I think the wars lasted from 582 to 585, and it is very confusing for me.
The reason for the confusion is the following :
-Goodmonth 584 : Aerdy nuked Almor & Chathold (WARS, 19 Ivid the Undying). The Month of Goodmonth is written in one of those sources, certainly WARS. It must be 584 because the raid from Osson must be in 583 (cannot be in 582 because the whole Vatun affair started in the fall of 582), and Osson is said to “winter” in the Medegia IIRC, with Ivid’s army on the other side of the border, waiting him. So it seems that the crushing of Almor was next year (so 584).
-Later it is told that Ivid V took the leadership of his armies, thinking the Almorian success was due to his strategic skills. He then entered Nyrond and is repelled. He is said to command from Rauxes, using spells and device, and this is a disaster. [IMO, TSR assumes this to happen in the fall of 584 (though this is written anywhere)].
-Then we learn that Ivid is slain during Richfest (not told which year) (WARS,21). As the story is told it is meant to be after the fall of Almor. But Richfest is BEFORE Goodmonth, so the assassination of Ivid V must be in Richfest 585 !!!
So the meeting at Greyhawk must be in Harvester 585, not 584 and the Day of the Great Signing must be in Coldeven 586, not 585. What a mess….
I can’t believe what I’ve just written, and I think it is false, but I would like to know WHERE it is false.
Maybe it is the fall of Almor who is in Goodmonth 583, and not 584 ? I don’t know, and all this WARS affair begins to get me mad !!!!
That’s why I would like to have an OFFICIAL Timeline for the WARS, and I don’t even ask for a monthly one (it would be good anyway), just an EXACT yearly one would suffice !!!!
I don’t ask for a telling of the WARS as the one in the WARS Boxed Set, I would like to see a TIMELINE. I was very confused by the telling of the whole story in the WARS Boxed Set, and even more confused with all errors that slipped in WGR4 and WGR5 about the WARS. For example, WGR5 p 4 tells that the breaking of Chendl’s siege was in Fall 584, but I can’t believe that Chendl has been besieged for a full year (the siege began in 583, isn’t it ?).
I hope Roger has one.
Regards
--------------
Patrice Forno – Marseille – France
froon@hol.fr
Les Fauconniers Gris (ggf@rmm.fr)
Liste de diffusion sur Greyhawk (Oerth@rmm.fr)
Thin Greyhawk Page : http://wwwperso.hol.fr/~froon/GH/FrGRey.htm
French WiF Page : http://wwwperso.hol.fr/~froon/WiF/wif.htm
Jacques Villeneuve Champion du Monde avec B.A.R. !!!
Go Jacques Go !!!
Showing posts with label Ivid the Undying. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Ivid the Undying. Show all posts
Sunday, November 27, 2011
Monday, December 7, 2009
Re: FW: Ivid the Undying
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] FW: Ivid the Undying
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:12:13 -0400
From: The Watcher
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
Haile and Fair Greetings All,
Ken writes:
>No No No. Please don't listen to him TSR. I would pay a fortune to
>have the books printed, and the same for the supplements. Yes I like
>the electronic supplements, and they help my game, but I still prefer
>to have the book on my shelf and be able to read it
>with out worrying about the refresh rate on my monitor.
First off, folks, don't lose sight of the fact that I was musing over an effort long expended. I was merely relating in mock exasperation the process I once went through in attempts to see the work to print. It would be marginally naive to think that with all the revision and supplementary materials I managed into the pages of DRAGON, DUNGEON, and to the lists that I should "suddenly" have this idea now, without ever having pursued it. Apart from that, each gamer's views are their own, of course.
>>From Kent:
>> While not every gamer has access to the 'net, I think that MOST do
>(more so every year) And, although I know there are people out there
>who would buy a copy anyhow, I have to say that (speaking strictly for
>myself), you people are just WEIRD. :-)
Fair enough. But let me be the first to break to you that you assumption seems not to be borne out by what information has been available. By comparing the figures of sales (and I don't want to debate the actual figures or how I got them) v. numbers of members on various lists recognized by TSR, there appears to be a quite small segment signed on (a vocal minority, if you will). Certainly, materials are further
disseminated after they are downloaded, but those numbers can only be guessed at -- not even estimated. As it currently stands, the WotC doesn't have evidence to definitively indicate any particular bulk of its consumer base is actively on-line at its doors.
>> Why fork out $40 for a product that is free? Sure, the binding
>might be better (the map of course would be - sorry I didn't do a
>better job - maybe some day I'll do up an Acrobat version), but $40
>for a glued spine and some metallic ink to decorate the
>> borders? I can't see the attraction - it's no more usable (in fact,
>sometimes less so - the upcoming GH modules are listed as "perfect
>bound", which don't look so perfect after you have to nearly crack the
>spine to get them to lay flat).
First of all, the manuscript was not free. Everyone who was involved in it got paid. In fact, it took quite some effort to get the manuscript posted on the TSR site. As well, the product I mused did not contain solely the _Ivid_ manuscript, but additional materials including a "current" update of the region c. 591 CY -- a completely separate work which would eventually be done and distributed at some point, anyway. Think of it as similar to the like of the _Return to..._ series, which includes reproductions of the originals within; only this reproduction will also be properly edited.
Secondly, I find it somewhat short-sighted that one would look upon one's own resources and, upon finding them sufficient, declare the rest may eat cake -- which may be misrepresented here. Kent makes an excellent case for why he should not purchase such a compilation, citing spartan preferences. But, I don't think he means to say that because of any personal indifference to bindings and graphic elements, the art department of gaming companies should be out of work.
Lastly, in his own reverse-psychology way, Kent makes yet another excellent point in that most folks don't know how to actually own/use books. As we all know (we all know, right?), one is not supposed to "crack" the spine of a perfect-bound book as is typical of stitch bindery. What we all know is that with this kind of binding, one should place a straight-edge (a ruler is a good tool) along the gripper line of the spine and fold back the cover and a number of pages at a time along
this line; the process repeated on the other cover, in the reverse direction. This "breaks in" the book properly and preserves the binding. But, I figure everyone already knows this, so forgive me for stating the obvious.
>> I'd much encourage TSR go in the OTHER direction - release their
>supplements and modules electronically - cheaper, faster, and
>customizable to my campaign- I can cut, paste and print up tidbits as
>player information (and stop yanking the books out of the
>> hands of some of my nosier players).
This is a good idea. For those who do not wish to pay the exceptional costs of hard copies -- particularly our oft-out-of-mind brethren beyond the US, where cost are *significantly* higher (!) -- there should be the option of visiting the TSR-online site and purchasing a (possibly) reduced cost electronic copy (sans extraneous graphical elements). This way, those who don't care for the "needless" parts or those where no stores seem ever to have the products have a viable option. For those in Canada and beyond, it's merely a question of exchange rates on the US$ (versus foreign production or distribution, tariffs, etc.).
Of course, this leaves out those who well have the money but prefer not to possess credit cards (like myself). This would include the youthful gamer the industry desires to restore to the ranks of players, but this are reasons enough (along with the computer issues: hardware and access costs, user-illiteracy, etc.), certainly not only the maps, for the hard copy to survive for now.
Soft Winter and Sweet Flowers,
Watcher
P.S.: Oh, and one more thing. I just took some quotes today on perfect200 +/- pages of 8.5 X 11 sheet in runs under 50 copies. The "median" quote was $150 for set-up and $1.50 per copy bound. Imagine how little per copy it is in runs of thousands.
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:12:13 -0400
From: The Watcher
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
Haile and Fair Greetings All,
Ken writes:
>No No No. Please don't listen to him TSR. I would pay a fortune to
>have the books printed, and the same for the supplements. Yes I like
>the electronic supplements, and they help my game, but I still prefer
>to have the book on my shelf and be able to read it
>with out worrying about the refresh rate on my monitor.
First off, folks, don't lose sight of the fact that I was musing over an effort long expended. I was merely relating in mock exasperation the process I once went through in attempts to see the work to print. It would be marginally naive to think that with all the revision and supplementary materials I managed into the pages of DRAGON, DUNGEON, and to the lists that I should "suddenly" have this idea now, without ever having pursued it. Apart from that, each gamer's views are their own, of course.
>>From Kent:
>> While not every gamer has access to the 'net, I think that MOST do
>(more so every year) And, although I know there are people out there
>who would buy a copy anyhow, I have to say that (speaking strictly for
>myself), you people are just WEIRD. :-)
Fair enough. But let me be the first to break to you that you assumption seems not to be borne out by what information has been available. By comparing the figures of sales (and I don't want to debate the actual figures or how I got them) v. numbers of members on various lists recognized by TSR, there appears to be a quite small segment signed on (a vocal minority, if you will). Certainly, materials are further
disseminated after they are downloaded, but those numbers can only be guessed at -- not even estimated. As it currently stands, the WotC doesn't have evidence to definitively indicate any particular bulk of its consumer base is actively on-line at its doors.
>> Why fork out $40 for a product that is free? Sure, the binding
>might be better (the map of course would be - sorry I didn't do a
>better job - maybe some day I'll do up an Acrobat version), but $40
>for a glued spine and some metallic ink to decorate the
>> borders? I can't see the attraction - it's no more usable (in fact,
>sometimes less so - the upcoming GH modules are listed as "perfect
>bound", which don't look so perfect after you have to nearly crack the
>spine to get them to lay flat).
First of all, the manuscript was not free. Everyone who was involved in it got paid. In fact, it took quite some effort to get the manuscript posted on the TSR site. As well, the product I mused did not contain solely the _Ivid_ manuscript, but additional materials including a "current" update of the region c. 591 CY -- a completely separate work which would eventually be done and distributed at some point, anyway. Think of it as similar to the like of the _Return to..._ series, which includes reproductions of the originals within; only this reproduction will also be properly edited.
Secondly, I find it somewhat short-sighted that one would look upon one's own resources and, upon finding them sufficient, declare the rest may eat cake -- which may be misrepresented here. Kent makes an excellent case for why he should not purchase such a compilation, citing spartan preferences. But, I don't think he means to say that because of any personal indifference to bindings and graphic elements, the art department of gaming companies should be out of work.
Lastly, in his own reverse-psychology way, Kent makes yet another excellent point in that most folks don't know how to actually own/use books. As we all know (we all know, right?), one is not supposed to "crack" the spine of a perfect-bound book as is typical of stitch bindery. What we all know is that with this kind of binding, one should place a straight-edge (a ruler is a good tool) along the gripper line of the spine and fold back the cover and a number of pages at a time along
this line; the process repeated on the other cover, in the reverse direction. This "breaks in" the book properly and preserves the binding. But, I figure everyone already knows this, so forgive me for stating the obvious.
>> I'd much encourage TSR go in the OTHER direction - release their
>supplements and modules electronically - cheaper, faster, and
>customizable to my campaign- I can cut, paste and print up tidbits as
>player information (and stop yanking the books out of the
>> hands of some of my nosier players).
This is a good idea. For those who do not wish to pay the exceptional costs of hard copies -- particularly our oft-out-of-mind brethren beyond the US, where cost are *significantly* higher (!) -- there should be the option of visiting the TSR-online site and purchasing a (possibly) reduced cost electronic copy (sans extraneous graphical elements). This way, those who don't care for the "needless" parts or those where no stores seem ever to have the products have a viable option. For those in Canada and beyond, it's merely a question of exchange rates on the US$ (versus foreign production or distribution, tariffs, etc.).
Of course, this leaves out those who well have the money but prefer not to possess credit cards (like myself). This would include the youthful gamer the industry desires to restore to the ranks of players, but this are reasons enough (along with the computer issues: hardware and access costs, user-illiteracy, etc.), certainly not only the maps, for the hard copy to survive for now.
Soft Winter and Sweet Flowers,
Watcher
P.S.: Oh, and one more thing. I just took some quotes today on perfect200 +/- pages of 8.5 X 11 sheet in runs under 50 copies. The "median" quote was $150 for set-up and $1.50 per copy bound. Imagine how little per copy it is in runs of thousands.
Friday, May 29, 2009
Re: merchant routes
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] merchant routes
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:57:29 -0700
From: Chris Anderson
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
But it wasn't always this way. Before the Naelax line, Aerdy was a thriving kingdon, and that would include roads, in my thinking. Not to mention that if you have a far-flung empire (remember that Furyondy was their western border), you need some method of travel in that empire, even if it's only for troops.
And that doesn't count trade routes between the major areas of Aerdy. I think that the Great Kingdom absolutely has to have roads and trade routes, even if they're left over from previous regimes.
Roads don't go away. Neither do trade routes, no matter what Ivid may say officially.
--
Chris Anderson
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Doubikin [mailto:doubikin@rh.net]
> Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 4:33 PM
> To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] merchant routes
>
> I think the map is closer to accurate than you think. In Ivid The Undying and I will quote
>
> " Foreign coinage (provincial coinage is not regarded as foreign) is not accepted in Aerdy outside of the eastern fringe lands where trade is still conducted with foreign nations, such as the Twin Cities, Rel
> Astra, Ountsy, etc. Also, it is accepted in a few parts of Ahlissa where piracy brings foreign gold into the land. In lands where such coin is accepted, it is devalued by 5-20% (5x1d4) for the purpose of purchasing goods or exchange for Aerdy coin. The one exception is the Sea Barons, who
> accept foreign coins with an exchange penalty of only 2%.
>
> In some areas of Aerdy coinage is not accepted at all, or goods are scarce and expensive; the gazetteer chapters give details."
>
> I would think that after such a conflict the current government would not try to keep foriengers out, Ivid is a lunitic probly thinking "hey foreigner actually means spy's. There fore I must keep the spy's out of
> the cities so the enemy will not know the size of my army's. That way they won't attack".
>
> I really don't think that having a road would help too much in a case such
> as that.
>
> Just my 2 cents
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrice Forno
> To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Date: Monday, May 10, 1999 4:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] merchant routes
>>
> >Hello,
> >
> >-----Message d'origine-----
> >Patrice "Fountain of Info" Forno wrote about road maps:
> >>There is an article in GHBest #9 about trade roads in eastern flanaess by QSamantha.
> >>>I stumbled upon a map drawn by someone (frankly I don't know by whom...shame on me)that details the major routes of the Flannaes.
> >>You can find it at http://www.avalon.net/~manzabar/hawk.html
> >
> >I looked at the road map at Manzabar's site again after reading this, and was dismayed to see that the map must be incomplete. I find it inconceivable that the Great Kingdom has NO roads in it! Surely, the empire that once spanned the Flanaess would not have built only roads in its
> tributaries, and I also refuse to accept that roads were a recent invention, and the Great Kingdom just doesn't have them yet. The eastern half of the Flanaess should be criss-crossed with long, straight roads.
> >--------------------
> >
> >IMO the map is both incomplete and non canon.
> >
> >All the Best,
> >
> >________________________________________________
> >Patrice Forno - Marseille - France
> >froon@pacwan.fr
> >Liste de diffusion sur Greyhawk (taerre@netultra.net)
> >
> >Thin Greyhawk Page : http://perso.pacwan.fr/froon/GH/FrGRey.htm
> >French WiF Page : http://perso.pacwan.fr/froon/WiF/wif.htm
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:57:29 -0700
From: Chris Anderson
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
But it wasn't always this way. Before the Naelax line, Aerdy was a thriving kingdon, and that would include roads, in my thinking. Not to mention that if you have a far-flung empire (remember that Furyondy was their western border), you need some method of travel in that empire, even if it's only for troops.
And that doesn't count trade routes between the major areas of Aerdy. I think that the Great Kingdom absolutely has to have roads and trade routes, even if they're left over from previous regimes.
Roads don't go away. Neither do trade routes, no matter what Ivid may say officially.
--
Chris Anderson
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Doubikin [mailto:doubikin@rh.net]
> Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 4:33 PM
> To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] merchant routes
>
> I think the map is closer to accurate than you think. In Ivid The Undying and I will quote
>
> " Foreign coinage (provincial coinage is not regarded as foreign) is not accepted in Aerdy outside of the eastern fringe lands where trade is still conducted with foreign nations, such as the Twin Cities, Rel
> Astra, Ountsy, etc. Also, it is accepted in a few parts of Ahlissa where piracy brings foreign gold into the land. In lands where such coin is accepted, it is devalued by 5-20% (5x1d4) for the purpose of purchasing goods or exchange for Aerdy coin. The one exception is the Sea Barons, who
> accept foreign coins with an exchange penalty of only 2%.
>
> In some areas of Aerdy coinage is not accepted at all, or goods are scarce and expensive; the gazetteer chapters give details."
>
> I would think that after such a conflict the current government would not try to keep foriengers out, Ivid is a lunitic probly thinking "hey foreigner actually means spy's. There fore I must keep the spy's out of
> the cities so the enemy will not know the size of my army's. That way they won't attack".
>
> I really don't think that having a road would help too much in a case such
> as that.
>
> Just my 2 cents
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrice Forno
> To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Date: Monday, May 10, 1999 4:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] merchant routes
>>
> >Hello,
> >
> >-----Message d'origine-----
> >Patrice "Fountain of Info" Forno wrote about road maps:
> >>There is an article in GHBest #9 about trade roads in eastern flanaess by QSamantha.
> >>>I stumbled upon a map drawn by someone (frankly I don't know by whom...shame on me)that details the major routes of the Flannaes.
> >>You can find it at http://www.avalon.net/~manzabar/hawk.html
> >
> >I looked at the road map at Manzabar's site again after reading this, and was dismayed to see that the map must be incomplete. I find it inconceivable that the Great Kingdom has NO roads in it! Surely, the empire that once spanned the Flanaess would not have built only roads in its
> tributaries, and I also refuse to accept that roads were a recent invention, and the Great Kingdom just doesn't have them yet. The eastern half of the Flanaess should be criss-crossed with long, straight roads.
> >--------------------
> >
> >IMO the map is both incomplete and non canon.
> >
> >All the Best,
> >
> >________________________________________________
> >Patrice Forno - Marseille - France
> >froon@pacwan.fr
> >Liste de diffusion sur Greyhawk (taerre@netultra.net)
> >
> >Thin Greyhawk Page : http://perso.pacwan.fr/froon/GH/FrGRey.htm
> >French WiF Page : http://perso.pacwan.fr/froon/WiF/wif.htm
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