Re: Hello!

Re: FW: Ivid the Undying

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] FW: Ivid the Undying
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:12:13 -0400
From: The Watcher
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Haile and Fair Greetings All,

Ken writes:
>No No No. Please don't listen to him TSR. I would pay a fortune to
>have the books printed, and the same for the supplements. Yes I like
>the electronic supplements, and they help my game, but I still prefer
>to have the book on my shelf and be able to read it
>with out worrying about the refresh rate on my monitor.

First off, folks, don't lose sight of the fact that I was musing over an effort long expended. I was merely relating in mock exasperation the process I once went through in attempts to see the work to print. It would be marginally naive to think that with all the revision and supplementary materials I managed into the pages of DRAGON, DUNGEON, and to the lists that I should "suddenly" have this idea now, without ever having pursued it. Apart from that, each gamer's views are their own, of course.

>>From Kent:
>> While not every gamer has access to the 'net, I think that MOST do
>(more so every year) And, although I know there are people out there
>who would buy a copy anyhow, I have to say that (speaking strictly for
>myself), you people are just WEIRD. :-)

Fair enough. But let me be the first to break to you that you assumption seems not to be borne out by what information has been available. By comparing the figures of sales (and I don't want to debate the actual figures or how I got them) v. numbers of members on various lists recognized by TSR, there appears to be a quite small segment signed on (a vocal minority, if you will). Certainly, materials are further
disseminated after they are downloaded, but those numbers can only be guessed at -- not even estimated. As it currently stands, the WotC doesn't have evidence to definitively indicate any particular bulk of its consumer base is actively on-line at its doors.

>> Why fork out $40 for a product that is free? Sure, the binding
>might be better (the map of course would be - sorry I didn't do a
>better job - maybe some day I'll do up an Acrobat version), but $40
>for a glued spine and some metallic ink to decorate the
>> borders? I can't see the attraction - it's no more usable (in fact,
>sometimes less so - the upcoming GH modules are listed as "perfect
>bound", which don't look so perfect after you have to nearly crack the
>spine to get them to lay flat).

First of all, the manuscript was not free. Everyone who was involved in it got paid. In fact, it took quite some effort to get the manuscript posted on the TSR site. As well, the product I mused did not contain solely the _Ivid_ manuscript, but additional materials including a "current" update of the region c. 591 CY -- a completely separate work which would eventually be done and distributed at some point, anyway. Think of it as similar to the like of the _Return to..._ series, which includes reproductions of the originals within; only this reproduction will also be properly edited.
Secondly, I find it somewhat short-sighted that one would look upon one's own resources and, upon finding them sufficient, declare the rest may eat cake -- which may be misrepresented here. Kent makes an excellent case for why he should not purchase such a compilation, citing spartan preferences. But, I don't think he means to say that because of any personal indifference to bindings and graphic elements, the art department of gaming companies should be out of work.
Lastly, in his own reverse-psychology way, Kent makes yet another excellent point in that most folks don't know how to actually own/use books. As we all know (we all know, right?), one is not supposed to "crack" the spine of a perfect-bound book as is typical of stitch bindery. What we all know is that with this kind of binding, one should place a straight-edge (a ruler is a good tool) along the gripper line of the spine and fold back the cover and a number of pages at a time along
this line; the process repeated on the other cover, in the reverse direction. This "breaks in" the book properly and preserves the binding. But, I figure everyone already knows this, so forgive me for stating the obvious.

>> I'd much encourage TSR go in the OTHER direction - release their
>supplements and modules electronically - cheaper, faster, and
>customizable to my campaign- I can cut, paste and print up tidbits as
>player information (and stop yanking the books out of the
>> hands of some of my nosier players).

This is a good idea. For those who do not wish to pay the exceptional costs of hard copies -- particularly our oft-out-of-mind brethren beyond the US, where cost are *significantly* higher (!) -- there should be the option of visiting the TSR-online site and purchasing a (possibly) reduced cost electronic copy (sans extraneous graphical elements). This way, those who don't care for the "needless" parts or those where no stores seem ever to have the products have a viable option. For those in Canada and beyond, it's merely a question of exchange rates on the US$ (versus foreign production or distribution, tariffs, etc.).
Of course, this leaves out those who well have the money but prefer not to possess credit cards (like myself). This would include the youthful gamer the industry desires to restore to the ranks of players, but this are reasons enough (along with the computer issues: hardware and access costs, user-illiteracy, etc.), certainly not only the maps, for the hard copy to survive for now.

Soft Winter and Sweet Flowers,
Watcher

P.S.: Oh, and one more thing. I just took some quotes today on perfect200 +/- pages of 8.5 X 11 sheet in runs under 50 copies. The "median" quote was $150 for set-up and $1.50 per copy bound. Imagine how little per copy it is in runs of thousands.

Various

Date sent: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:11:19 -0500
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Otto Zequeira 2
Subject: [GREYTALK][GT] Various
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Humanoid origins, Vatun: On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:40:12 CST, SCOTT CASPER wrote, “”What if, way back after the Invoked Devastation, the hordelings didn't leave right away. Recent postings have argued about whether summoning has a time limit. What if the hordelings stayed, molested the Oerdians, and the product of these hordeling-human unions gradually produced the orcs, trolls, and kobolds we all know (and love) today?”

The problem with this idea is that the Invoked Devastation reference comes after the description of humanoids as troops. A good idea, though.

“Secondly, this occurred to me at about the same time. What if the Vatun disguise of Iuz's was not Iuz's idea? A lot of gods were probably happy with his incarceration under Castle Greyhawk. What if they schemed to check the demi-god again? Zagyg, Cuthbert, and maybe some other lesser gods or quasi-deities kidnapped Iuz, forced amnesia on him, and told him he was the lost god Vatun? They got the Suel gods to go along with this, and that is why divination never revealed the Vatun deception.

Now we know why Iuz is so bitter. Imagine, a hunk like him getting stuck in the body of 'Ken'.

Greyspace: On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:20:33 +1300, rodking wrote, “I have a particular dislike of Spelljamming in the context of Greyhawk although it is an enjoyable game in its own right. The problems are these: 1) Its a huge departure from the sense of Greyhawk being a distinct Plane of existence in its own right. Now its just a bubble in an endless sea.”

I personally like the idea of limiting exit and entry into the sphere to only the most powerful mages, e.g. Zagyg. This maintains the feel of an isolated WoG.

Official artifacts: On Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:41:31 -0300, Bruno Di Pentima asked,
>For example, doesn't the City of Greyhawk have the proverbial “Sword of
>Damocles” hanging over it with a certain personage of the Outer Planes
>vowing vengeance against the place and it's former master for entrapping it
>and the theft of a potent device dear to it? Could it not be said by some
>that the City was both blessed and ultimately doomed by the legacy of
Zagyg?
I didn't knew that (I am a little inexperienced in Greyhawk) Where did you got that?? From City of Greyhawk boxed set?

The poster was referring to Iuz and his imprisonment under Castle Greyhawk by Zagyg as detailed in several places. I think some of this info. Is in the FAQ.

What's up with Greyhawk98?. On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:19:06 -0500, AOL KenNewq asked, “I've been away from the list for a while, so I'm not quite sure where these assorted Greyhawk98 posts are originating. Is Greyhawk98 (I'm assuming this is a proposed product line) actually going to happen, or is it wishful thinking?”

It's the best of wishful thinking...

Druids: On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17L14L35 -0600, Victor Gonzalez asked, “I feel silly asking this question but last night my DM try to argue that, per the rules, druids do not have to be true neutral, just neutral in some aspect. And when we looked it up in the PH is did say just neutral, not true neutral. Has they're been an official change or is my DM being to picky in looking for the exact wording of true neutral?”

Yes, he's being picky. I personally enjoy the view that druids are just as vicious sons of Iggwilfs as anybody else.

GH Wars: Here's a little something that I put together, in case it's helpful.

Wars Calendar
Year Month Event
582-----------Rise of Stonefist
--------------The Fall of Tenh
583-----------Iuz returns to his homeland
------3-------Blood Moon Festival
--------------Martyrs of the Holy Shielding
--------------Stroke & Counter Stroke
------7-------Furyondy Besieged
--------------Great Kingdom Awakens
--------------Osson's Raid
--------------Lordship of the Isles Coup
583—winter----Aid from the South
----spring----An Empire Where None Had Stood
584---8-------Conquest of Almor
--------------Horsemen of Ket
--------------Giant Troubles
--------------Mad King Takes the Field
--------------Sea Princes Assassinated
--------------Collapse of Ide & Onnwall
--------------Hool Invasion
--------------Blockade of Gradsul
-------9------Aerdy Sundered
--------------Great Council of Greyhawk
585---2-------Day of the Great Signing
--------------Elves reclaim Lendor Isle?

Re: On Gunpowder in Greyhawk

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 99 12:50PM PDT
From: Patrice Forno Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail Blocker To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] On Gunpowder in Greyhawk

Hello,

-----Message d'origine-----
Scott Knowles wrote:
>I seem to remember reading somewhere (maybe the '83
>boxed set) that EGG said that gunpowder simply will
>not ignite on Oerth... that nothing chemical will
>EXPLODE. In order to get around the whole gunfire/
>cannon/gunpowder argument, he just said right from the
>get-go, "Hey, this stuff just will not work."
>Can anyone back me up on this?


Here is a text assembled by Roger Moore about Gunpowder in GH :

****************************************************************************
************
"GUNPOWDER IN GREYHAWK" Dragon Magazine Index
Compiled by Roger Moore


========================================================
Here is a clip from the Greyhawk Index I did on Dragon articles. It has all
the major references about gunpowder, pro and con.
========================================================

Dragon issue #30, pages 12+: "From the Sorcerer's Scroll: New Setting
for the Adventure" (Gary Gygax): Details on the GREYHAWK campaign, including
a proposed adventure in which characters go to the modern world from a city
in the Flanaess. This article contains the important rule: "Gunpowder and explosives will not function on the World of Greyhawk." (See also Gygax's comments in the AD&D 1st Edition Campaign.")

Ed Greenwood later greatly expanded this material for the AD&D game in
his article, "Modern Monsters," in issue #57. The publication of further
articles by Ed Greenwood on using primitive firearms in the AD&D game (issue #60, page 24, "Firearms: First guns were not much fun"; issue #70, page 31, "A Second Volley: Taking another shot at firearms, AD&D style") provoked a short negative response from Gygax in issue #66, page 4 ("Out on a Limb: Gary on gunpowder"), in which he stated that such have no place in the game--though, as noted in issues #17 and #71, Gygax himself made allowances for them in his GREYHAWK campaign!

As a result of this disagreement, the different views of Gygax and Greenwood were made official for their respective game worlds. The SPELLJAMMER(R) boxed set (#1049, 1989, by Jeff Grubb), in ****************************************************************************
************

Regards

_________________________________________________
Patrice Forno - Marseille - France
froon@pacwan.fr
Liste de diffusion sur Greyhawk (taerre@netultra.net)

Thin Greyhawk Page : http://perso.pacwan.fr/froon/GH/FrGRey.htm
French WiF Page : http://perso.pacwan.fr/froon/WiF/wif.htm

Re: Robilar out of the ashes?

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:33:07 +000
Reply-To: rjkuntz@gci-net.com
From: rjkuntz
Organization: Creations Unlimited
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Robilar out of the ashes?
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

SCOTT CASPER wrote:
>
> Hello again.
>
> I have been following the recent Robilar thread with interest, as
> Rary the Traitor didn’t work for me either. Dek has very well summed
> up the Robilar-as-clone theory, and I agree that this would solve the
> problem of all of Otto and Tenser’s clones being killed in so short a
> time. However, both Otto and Tenser are alive and well in my version
> of Oerth, and can’t understand what all this fuss is about.

That’s a point. Gamers come in many forms and use the products as offered in different ways. What might seem of less concern to us is a concern to TSR for marketing reasons, and thus content must be balanced. As an example, modules are used in at least three general ways. There are others, but consider these from TSR’s eventual concern:

1) As offered. Use is consistent with the published guides.
2) As parts for creative use within the campaign (maps, monsters, spells, N-PCs, etc.). DMs extract what is needed by ignore the rest.
3) As extracts for other campaigns (FR, etc).

Notes.

1. This is mainly one-off stuff or for the literal-minded, general gamers who do not seriously follow the campaign but like the material none-the-less. Collectors as opposed to serious gamers.

2. Mainstay. These are the types (like us) who have ignored the pattern as set forth and have thrust out on our own creative endeavors, as any good DM should. These purchasers usually desire more and better in from published offerings. This is doubly true now that GH has sustained itself after so many years and the creativity of this list is at its peak. This should be TSR’s main market thrust area, types such as us.

3. Overlap community. This is apparent in two ways, one outspoken, the other less obvious but there.

A. The Dragon’s editor, Dave Gross, has stated a desire for GH articles. However, his preference is for those that overlap into other game worlds that now exist, thus making them useable across a greater scale of Dragon’s readership. This does not allow for historical development and, for #2 above, much delineated treatments beyond the norm (spells, items, monsters, etc). This is more non-campaign specific, and I assume that this stated need would be assumed by TSR to work in reverse (folks using GH as a template would raid ideas from FR articles, etc.).

B. TSR’s announcement of published offerings of this as well. TOH and Return of the 8. These are easily one-off adventures which [Text missing]

TSR’s problem at resurrecting a setting(s) that have been so long in hiatus. By looking at the old modules one would not get the idea of how far Greyhawk has come after its initial death. Nor does The Dragon reflect this period of quality and quantity as well. Discussion groups of this sort have amassed great amounts of material which are overlooked from TSR’s point of view for possible expression within published form.

MY concern: This state of affairs—hiatus--> resurrection--> attempting to instill new ideas as garnered over the years from fan commitment to GH—will not properly entice “new blood” which is needed to expand the line, both in content and in form, for less offerings of the interesting sort will be published within this expanding scenario. Until TSR feels good about the GH market, simple offerings will be the staple and great concepts, like the Robilar one and many others, such as the Suel Barbarian Project, etc., will be marginalized. This is my opinion only, of course. Much might change once TSR relearns what the phrase “valued consumer” means.

Remedies: Write, Write, Write letters to Dragon and to Harold Johnson. Keep the pressure on them. And keep on enjoying what we do in between!

Robilar

WoG Market Plan

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:37:57 +0000
Reply-To: rjkuntz@gci-net.com
From: rjkuntz rjkuntz@gci-net.com
Organization: Creations Unlimited
Subject: [GREYTALK] WoG Market Plan
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

I enclose, for this list’s preview, the market plan sent to Harold Johnson, Peter Adkinson, Lisa Stevens and Gary Gygax.

I might add, following the announcement at Gencon of WoG’s return, that this is good news. I do hope, however, that those with the original vision will be allowed to participate with WoG’s future.

I too am sorry to hear of Carl Sargent’s ill health; I believe he just had a new Shadowrun novel released and had no idea that ill times had befallen him.

Have a good read.

Rob Kuntz


TO: Harold Johnson, Brand Manager, Greyhawk
RE: WoG Market Plan

Hello Harold!

Long stretches of time separate communications between us. I hope that this letter is just the beginning of a long and resourceful relationship!

[introductory letter body snipped]

>>> Insert after our phone discussion<<<

My Thoughts

Greyhawk needs a healthy return as a product line, we both know this. A long term market plan including strong foundations, an ever present promotional campaign and good and ample product offerings will accomplish this. I will cover each of these ideas in turn as topics. Note the following pages.

World of Greyhawk Market Plan

Foundations: What is the long term goal of investing in the return of TSR’s first FRPG world? How can TSR continue to make WoG not just a published line, but an eye-catcher, a sought after commodity, a line that TSR not only aggressively pursues, but is likewise pursued by their consumers? World of Greyhawk'’s initial market share and growth it needs to once again be a profitable AD&D FRP world. A lack of this,

[Text missing]

degenerative, causing problems such as mediocre products and a reduced market desirability for these. So I’m sure we can agree on the fact that from the onset WoG needs a solid plan in addition to a timely, well reasoned publishing schedule for it to achieve the most desirous long term results for TSR and its product line consumers.

Promoting the Product Line: TSR’s earliest products, such as modules and game-aids from the WoG setting, had ample promotional backing. A well thought out and executed promotional campaign is necessary with a WoG market push, especially with the FTA/Original WoG fractionalization. However, there can be no dedicated promotional campaign of WoG without a decisive viewpoint of what setting, original or other, will be marketed. Here I make a push for the original setting. Unlike FTA the original WoG campaign has a solid foundation of creators and material and a good following waiting to expand with the creators and material and a good following waiting to expand with the product. Listed below are specific examples of what would be needed for a successful, ongoing promotional campaign.

A) Dragon Magazine coverage of initiatives, including photos, interviews, individual and team-related articles, a column devoted to sourcing the products, reviews, etc.
B) Increased consumer awareness through convention seminars, games, and special events. There is a ready source of avid Greyhawk gamers networked throughout the U.S. and overseas to help with this initiative. As with the RPGA, this harkens back to “grass roots” support from DMs, play-testers, reviewers, etc.
C) A solid advertising campaign reinforced by up-front product reviews.
D) An educated, up-with-the-times PR campaign
E) Other than game-related initiatives, as novels, short fiction, author special appearances, book-signings, etc.
F) A TSR internet site devoted to the campaign setting. This site would include, among other things, electronic versions of Dragon articles related to WoG initiatives, etc., breaking news and updates, event and convention postings, FAQs on Greyhawk past and present, links to corresponding WoG sites, links to management, authors and/or design teams, links to chat rooms and forums, a TSR online catalog link with secured transactions, product samples/teasers, links to other TSR Brand/Corporate sites, a TSR questionnaire/product poll, WoG release schedules, TSR/WoG submission guidelines, periodic contests, etc.

This, in conjunction with above-average product, name authors, and strong product release schedules, would make WoG a serious product line for TSR. Product line credibility would rise and in turn attract a greater number of designers and consumers. Many former WoG designers have expressed a need for this type of effort by TSR in order for them to seriously support a returned WoG product line. Likewise, WoG’s mature consumer audience, which would be a targeted base of support as WoG was pushed, would be either a negative or positive catalyst with this, depending on how well the market foundation was laid and thereafter extended and supported.

The Product Line: There is much product extant to be considered. Greyhawks’ authors have a wealth of original material that would fit comfortably into 2nd edition formats. Product must be creative in the

[Text missing]

New: As opposed to old rehashes of stale ideas. Good examples include WoG Spell Book, WoG Monstrous Compendium, WoG Gods, etc. Stale/Rehashed examples include unthematic one-off adventures, compilation of articles, any product lacking energy and direction (i.e., fillers, such as the “Joke Castle Greyhawk”).

Exciting: This incorporates some of what is “new” and what is “different”. This product must have ageless appeal to players and DMs alike. A good example of this would be WoG Priest and Mage Classes, which can be constantly re-used and amended by the consumer; an indispensable product.

Different: In three senses. In what TSR has done, not done, and overdone with much of its RPG line. An example could include modules, which it has done and overdone to the point of saturation. There are exceptions, especially when the product is exciting and perhaps contains new concepts, such as “Expedition to the Barrier Peaks”, which is a good example of “different”. Within the RPG industry “different” also denotes a unique achievement; and oftentimes these product types are overlooked or underplayed by R & D departments with entrenched ideas. Within business there are certain fathomable limits which must be maintained in order to garner the most possible sales yield from each new product. Thus what has been done can be over-justified from the sales end. A proper mixture of “what’s different and exciting” and “what works and yields the most profit” must be achieved, for a singular-minded industry approach does not wholly allow for designers’ creations to mature, does not take into account future market shifts, nor does it establish a mutable mind-set at the corporate level of what to do outside of this pre-established boundary. TSR must push the “Products For Your Imagination” trademark to its limits, and this its own RPG lines to theirs. There is no threshold in fantasy. Thus there should be none in TSR’s FRP game lines, WoG included.

Long-Lasting: In the sense that years from now the product will still find more than average use by the consumer. A good example of this would include “Castle Greyhawk” (the original), which is massive in concept and will not age as fast as other products. Also, any product, such as this, that can be appended to. In the chosen example, the castle can have extra “level-sets” added to it. A mutable as opposed to a closed product.

SUMMARY

World of Greyhawk, its designers, their products and TSR’s/WoG consumer base must all be taken seriously in order for this project to succeed. TSR’s overall aim should be to market high quality products that portray newness, produce excitement, would be different (perhaps even “cutting edge”), and would maintain a longevity not only in the minds of its consumers, but on their gameshelves as well. The past, “sever them another of that, uh, no, that one!” will not do. Sure, you can fill a gameshelf by this philosophy, but sooner than later that same gameshelf, if this adopted marketing strategy persists, will be filled by other than TSR products.

World of Greyhawk has the ability to be totally revamped and remarketed. It has an abundance of material on hand in all categories, game-related and fiction. It has many interested, mature [End missing]