From LESENEY@accuwx.com Thu Oct 26 00:39:33 1995
Subject: Forbidden Lore
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Hello fellow Greyhawkers,
While this is not Greyhawk specific, I noticed a few comments of late that some members do not have access to some 1st edition books. As a service I will reproduce some of the "Ancient Lore" that I discovered in my research concerning Arch-Devils, The Dukes and Hell and their organization. I was prompted to look for Baalzephon's rank in the old pecking order by the recent discussion and thought I would pass along some of my findings.
(Note: all information was gathered using 1st edi. MM, MM2, Manual of the Planes)
There are 8 Arch-Devils and one Chromatic Dragon that rule the nine planes of Hell, they are as follows:
Planes of Hell Ruler
-------------- -----
1st - Avernus Tiamat
2nd - Dis Dispater
3rd - Minauros Mammon
4th - Phlegethos Belial
5th - Stygia Geyron
6th - Malbolge Moloch/Baalzebul
7th - Maladomini Baalzebul
8th - Caina Mephistopheles
9th - Nessus Asmodeus
Note: Moloch rules the 6th Plane of Hell for his liege Baalzebul and is given the alternate classification as a Grand Duke, Viceroy of Hell, thus not quite a true arch-devil.
In addition there are the Dukes of Hell, the "trusted" servants of the Arch-Fiends. The MM2 describes them as about equal in power to a weaker arch-devil, although some are but little stronger than a pit fiend, or are, in fact, actual pit fiends.
Please note that our favorite Duke, Baalzephon, is the PRIME Minister of Hell. Kind of funny how that is, considering his involvement in the prime material plane of Oerth. Anyway, I hope someone can use this to further define the heirarchy of the Lower Planes.
Name In the Service Of Command or Position
---------- --------------------- --------------------
Abigor Baalzebul 60 companies of horned devils
Andonides Mephistopheles Steward
Adramelech Asmodeus Chancellor
Agares Geyron 31 companies of bone devils
Alastor Asmodeus Executioner
Alocer Dispater 36 companies of erinyes
Amduscias Tiamat 29 companies of abishai
Amon Geyron 40 companies of bone devils
Arioch Dispater Avenger
Baalberith Asmodeus Major domo
Baalphegor Mephistopheles Consort
Baalzephon Dispater Prime Minister
Bael Mammon 66 companies of barbed devils
Balan Belial 40 companies of bearded devils
Barbas Mephistopheles Chamberlain
Barbatos Baalzebul Marshal
Bathym Belial 30 companies of barbed devils
Bel Dispater 3 companies of horned devils
Bele Mephistopheles Justiciar
Bensozia Asmodeus, Baalzebul Consort
Bethage Moloch 9 companies of horned devils
Biffant Dispater Provost
Bifrons Mephistopheles 26 companies of ice devils
Bileth Moloch Tribune
Bitru Dispater 70 companies of erinyes
Buer Asmodeus 15 companies of pit fiends
Bune Asmodeus 30 companies of horned devils
Caarcrinolaas Mammon 36 companies of barbed devils
Chamo Belial Legate
Cozbi Geyron Consort
Fecor Geyron 8 companies of horned devils
Focalor Mammon Seneschal
Furcas Dispater 12 companies of bearded devils
Gaziel Belial 11 companies of bone devils
Glasya Mammon Consort; daughter of Asmodeus
Goap Tiamat 3 companies of erinyes
Gorson Geyron, Baalzebul Bailiff
Herobaal Moloch 16 companies of bone devils
Herodias Geyron Magistrate
Hutijin Mephistopheles 2 companies of pit fiends
Lilis Dispater Consort
Lilith Moloch Consort
Machalas Geyron 11 companies of barbed devils
Malphas Tiamat 40 companies of abishai
Martinet Asmodeus Constable
Melchon Mammon 18 companies of erinyes
Merodach Dispater 21 companies of barbed devils
Morax Asmodeus 9 companies of pit fiends
Naome Belial Consort
Neabaz Baalzebul Herald
Nexroth Mephistopheles 16 companies of horned devils
Phongor Asmodeus Inquisitor
Rimmon Asmodeus 5 companies of ice devils
Tartach Moloch Legate
Titvilus Dispater Nuncio
Zaebos Belial Lieutenant
Zagum Asmodeus 30 companies of barbed devils
Zapan Belial 4 companies of horned devils
Zepar Baalzebul 28 companies of horned devils
Zimimar Mammon 6 companies of bone devils
Showing posts with label Devils. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Devils. Show all posts
Tuesday, November 11, 2008
Monday, November 10, 2008
Forbidden Lore
From joe.katzman@magic.ca Wed Oct 25 08:16:17 1995
Organization: Magic Online Services Inc.
Subject: Forbidden Lore
To: greytalk@MIT.EDU
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BTW, is it just me, or is everyone receiving two copies of everything?
> My Ivid manuscript mentions _the Casket of Abyssal Bone_ in one single
> sentence, stating that it is an artifact given to the Naelax overkings
> by Baalzephon. Do you have any more information about this artifact?
> The fact that it is _abyssal_ bone had me confused, since the artifact
> was granted by baatezu.
Several hypotheses are advanced in the paragraph you quoted immediately before your question. The "abyssal" can either mean the artifact is from the Abyss (and so captured in the Blood Wars), or that it uses the bones of Abyssal creatures as part of its magic (in which case it's a construct of someone's).
> Also, I can't seem to find info on _the Unholy Bloodshield_, except that
> it can activate the Screaming Column in Rauxes. Do you know of any
> additional powers?
None are mentioned anywhere in my sources.
With respect to these questions, the Dark 8, etc., there comes a point where you must simply use your creativity. These are really things players are NOT supposed to know, and TSR has deliberately left them vague for that reason. The Dark 8's powers are undefined. Why? Because PCs should NEVER wind up facing one of them directly, any more than they should have been able to face an Archduke in 1st Edition.
Ed Greenwood goes into this regarding the rulers of Hell in his Dragon #74 & 75 articles, and it's still true. The Dark Eight will just keep sending servants - human, fiendish, or otherwise - to deal with the PCs who pose a threat, and will work through intermediaries to ensure that the true employer is not known. They have a LOT of servants, and when mercenaries are added the figure becomes very high indeed.
Unless the players are being looked after in a semi-direct fashion by an interested patron power, this is pretty much game over. Sooner or later, one wave or another is bound to get lucky, or the PCs eventually ascend to quasi-deityhood or become divine servants, and are thus able to deal on equal terms. (This is the slim danger for the Dark Eight: in the fires of such awful adversity, that which does not break may be forged into greatness.) Either way, however, your campaign ends.
The only way to encounter one of these beings is to summon him, a perilous course indeed as the history of the Naelax line shows. The mage must bargain, and the price will be steep. Attack is irrelevant at that point, earning an immortal and hideously powerful enemy even if the summoner wins and banishes the fiend. Magical imprisonment, meanhwile, is likely to be looked upon with some annoyance by the other 7, who will take steps. Unless you're in Zagyg's power-class, I wouldn't try it. There's a very good reason stuff like this is considered "forbidden lore."
Now, this does not mean that PCs can't have a lot of fun bashing the servants of such creatures, or foiling their Prime Material plots. This isn't necessarily easy, of course - take a look at the arch-mage Karoolck. Killing him in a permanent fashion would take a whole high-level campaign, and he's just a major human lackey. This won't exactly make one friends in the Hells, but the Dark Eight have much larger concerns and aren't all that likely to intervene if things go awry. If they did, they would risk the wrath of the pawnmasters on other planes, and that would be serious.
So the defeat is taken in poor grace, and the Great Game of the planes goes on. The PCs may get a potshot at them now and again if the opportunity presents itself, but nothing really serious. Their deeds will have earned them planar allies of their own and limited protection in the form of warnings and other forms of assistance.
Back to the question of the Dark Eight and their personal powers... The great danger of going after The Dark Eight themselves is that it voids such protection, being outside the bounds of the Game. An analogy: when the USSR's Arab allies got thrashed in the Mid-East, the Soviets did not try to invade Israel. Sure, they bankrolled some terrorist movements, and propped up their regional allies, but anything more would have invited a suicidal confrontation with the US. Not worth it.
A similar dynamic applied to the US and Cuba. Basing soviet missiles was a causus belli, but otherwise you'll notice that after the Missile Crisis, Cuba was threatened in far less direct fashion. Now, this would have changed totally if Cuba had decalred war on the USA, and started sinking ships off of Florida and firing (conventional) missiles into Miami. What are the chances that Soviet protection would have saved their butts from a full-scale US assault then? Right -- about zero.
Consider the parallels to this analogy in terms of a D&D campaign, and what that might mean.
Planar politics is very, very similar to the superpower manoeverings of the Cold War, because it has such similar underlying drivers. Once you understand the history and the parallels, it's much easier to work similar dynamics into your game and officiate the results. Just one more case of "the more you know, the more you can imagine."
--Thalion Envinyatar
***********************************************************
One Corp. to rule the 'Net, One Corp. to find them.
One Corp. to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
In the land of T$R, where the lawyers lie.
***********************************************************
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
Organization: Magic Online Services Inc.
Subject: Forbidden Lore
To: greytalk@MIT.EDU
Priority: normal
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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Status: RO
BTW, is it just me, or is everyone receiving two copies of everything?
> My Ivid manuscript mentions _the Casket of Abyssal Bone_ in one single
> sentence, stating that it is an artifact given to the Naelax overkings
> by Baalzephon. Do you have any more information about this artifact?
> The fact that it is _abyssal_ bone had me confused, since the artifact
> was granted by baatezu.
Several hypotheses are advanced in the paragraph you quoted immediately before your question. The "abyssal" can either mean the artifact is from the Abyss (and so captured in the Blood Wars), or that it uses the bones of Abyssal creatures as part of its magic (in which case it's a construct of someone's).
> Also, I can't seem to find info on _the Unholy Bloodshield_, except that
> it can activate the Screaming Column in Rauxes. Do you know of any
> additional powers?
None are mentioned anywhere in my sources.
With respect to these questions, the Dark 8, etc., there comes a point where you must simply use your creativity. These are really things players are NOT supposed to know, and TSR has deliberately left them vague for that reason. The Dark 8's powers are undefined. Why? Because PCs should NEVER wind up facing one of them directly, any more than they should have been able to face an Archduke in 1st Edition.
Ed Greenwood goes into this regarding the rulers of Hell in his Dragon #74 & 75 articles, and it's still true. The Dark Eight will just keep sending servants - human, fiendish, or otherwise - to deal with the PCs who pose a threat, and will work through intermediaries to ensure that the true employer is not known. They have a LOT of servants, and when mercenaries are added the figure becomes very high indeed.
Unless the players are being looked after in a semi-direct fashion by an interested patron power, this is pretty much game over. Sooner or later, one wave or another is bound to get lucky, or the PCs eventually ascend to quasi-deityhood or become divine servants, and are thus able to deal on equal terms. (This is the slim danger for the Dark Eight: in the fires of such awful adversity, that which does not break may be forged into greatness.) Either way, however, your campaign ends.
The only way to encounter one of these beings is to summon him, a perilous course indeed as the history of the Naelax line shows. The mage must bargain, and the price will be steep. Attack is irrelevant at that point, earning an immortal and hideously powerful enemy even if the summoner wins and banishes the fiend. Magical imprisonment, meanhwile, is likely to be looked upon with some annoyance by the other 7, who will take steps. Unless you're in Zagyg's power-class, I wouldn't try it. There's a very good reason stuff like this is considered "forbidden lore."
Now, this does not mean that PCs can't have a lot of fun bashing the servants of such creatures, or foiling their Prime Material plots. This isn't necessarily easy, of course - take a look at the arch-mage Karoolck. Killing him in a permanent fashion would take a whole high-level campaign, and he's just a major human lackey. This won't exactly make one friends in the Hells, but the Dark Eight have much larger concerns and aren't all that likely to intervene if things go awry. If they did, they would risk the wrath of the pawnmasters on other planes, and that would be serious.
So the defeat is taken in poor grace, and the Great Game of the planes goes on. The PCs may get a potshot at them now and again if the opportunity presents itself, but nothing really serious. Their deeds will have earned them planar allies of their own and limited protection in the form of warnings and other forms of assistance.
Back to the question of the Dark Eight and their personal powers... The great danger of going after The Dark Eight themselves is that it voids such protection, being outside the bounds of the Game. An analogy: when the USSR's Arab allies got thrashed in the Mid-East, the Soviets did not try to invade Israel. Sure, they bankrolled some terrorist movements, and propped up their regional allies, but anything more would have invited a suicidal confrontation with the US. Not worth it.
A similar dynamic applied to the US and Cuba. Basing soviet missiles was a causus belli, but otherwise you'll notice that after the Missile Crisis, Cuba was threatened in far less direct fashion. Now, this would have changed totally if Cuba had decalred war on the USA, and started sinking ships off of Florida and firing (conventional) missiles into Miami. What are the chances that Soviet protection would have saved their butts from a full-scale US assault then? Right -- about zero.
Consider the parallels to this analogy in terms of a D&D campaign, and what that might mean.
Planar politics is very, very similar to the superpower manoeverings of the Cold War, because it has such similar underlying drivers. Once you understand the history and the parallels, it's much easier to work similar dynamics into your game and officiate the results. Just one more case of "the more you know, the more you can imagine."
--Thalion Envinyatar
***********************************************************
One Corp. to rule the 'Net, One Corp. to find them.
One Corp. to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
In the land of T$R, where the lawyers lie.
***********************************************************
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
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