Re: Humanoids in Greyhawk

Priority: Normal
Date sent: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:16:22 -0400
Send reply to: Keith Horsfield
From: Keith Horsfield
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Humanoids in Greyhawk
Originally to: “GailnRoger@aol.com”
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Hi Roger,

I hope you don't mind me sharing this with the GreyTalk list.

>The comments in the 1980 gaz don't rule out humanoids in the Flanaess,
>however.

Well, when parsing 17 year old text meant for gaming purposes and not scholarly research (though some of us go that far) nothing is ever ruled out.

>It is logical that they were there, causing trouble for the Flannae
>and demihumans.

It may be logical in the 'normal' fantasy world, but given several factors I plan on viewing it differently.

1) The Flannae racial make-up just does not strike me as one that has had to deal with much physical strife prior to the migrations. They were easily subjugated (or pushed aside) by the influx of the oerdians and the suel not to mention the warring bands of humanoids.
2) The passages that I mentioned earlier just strike me almost superfluous if there were humanoids already present in the Flanaess east of the mountains (see below). The timeline though sparse makes a point that humanoids were used as mercenaries. Why? This can go without saying unless there was some other import. The passages then emphasize that the humanoids drive the oeridians forward into the Flanaess and then that the hordes fragmented. This implies that the hordes spread out and populated the Flanaess. The only word not used in conjunction with this movement of hordes of humanoids is 'migration'.

FWIW, I'm actually thinking of running a campaign on the following premise:

Timeframe: Prior to the Oeridian, Suel and humanoid migrations. Probably well before, like -5 FT.

Setting: It will be a rather idyllic setting with no humanoids. Faerie/sylvan folk oriented with a heavy accent on celtic myth and the sidhe. The Flannae will either be in their own bronze or iron age.

Conflict: Elf vs. Flannae (man)

Premise: The Flannae were not always such a peaceful nature loving folk and could have repulsed the migrations of the Oeridians, Suloise and humanoids if only they had not been totally subjugated by the elves in a long forgotten war which decimated the Flannae civilization and forced them into a culture of small tribes/clans.

Consequences: Why is there no remaining animosity between the elves and Flannae?

1) This was happened in the far distant past. The very fact it happened prior to the migrations puts it 1,000 years ago. If we were to use this war as the starting date for Flannae calendar we are now talking almost 3,000 years ago. Elves may remember the war and the consequences, but not mere mortal humans.
2) The positives that came out of the subjugation by the elves.

Initially, resistance would be high. But over time the culture of the [missing word?] relation on how to live with the world around the flannae (I.e. nature) take the sting out of losing. Over time as the Flannae adapt the the cultural morals of the elves to their own system of beliefs, history would be rewritten. Here is the beginnings of the 'Old Faith.' With such a [missing word] and the new ethics within the flan culture, harboring animosity towards their own saviors (though this part would probably be forgotten and rewritten so that someone of their own kind came up with the idea) would be counterproductive to their new way of life.

>There just happened to be a lot of them in the Yatils/Barrier
>peaks/Crystalmists chain, and they were suitable for mercenary work if
>you weren't picky. However, they were more trouble than they were
>worth in the long run.

Granted. I was overreaching in my arguments and now have revised them so that humanoid populations were no further east than the barrier mountains (I use this term to include the Yatils, Barrier Peaks, Crystalmists and Hellfurnaces). Why no further east? Those darn pesky demi-humans knew a good thing when they saw it and did their utmost to guard the barrier mountains from incursions.

>I think the Oeridians originally lived around Ull, but abandoned it
>due to pressure from humanoid armies of the Baklunish. The Oeridians
>probably didn't get along with the Baklunish, either.

Hmm, not satisfied here. I understand when looking at the migration pictures in the published material that the oeridians are shown as starting from an area around Ull. But, the closest country with any oeridian blood in it is Ket (see Ref Card #2 FtA) and Ket is along the migration route of the oeridians. I envisioned the Oeridians moving through the Dry Steppes from somewhere to the west. Reasoning. The Dry Stepps prior to the Invoked Devastation were populated by Baklunish and Horse Barbarians. Placing the oeridians in a geographical position surrounded by the baklunish would only make them a subculture of the Baklunish. Something I think we can both agree that they are not.

Also, the relative newness of the oeridian calendar, i.e. 260 OR when the Baklunish-Suloise wars begins, implies that some major event happened relatively recently (when compared to the other human cultures). One theory could be the beginning of the actual oeridian migration from points farther west due to their own catastrophe.

Oeridians of that time period, the Baklunish-Suloise wars and migrations, were also said to have very powerful magics. Yet when we talk about the areas just west of the barrier mountains and look at the published material invariably we are only dealing with either ancient Suloise or Baklunish cultures. This says to me that the oeridians came from farther west.

Lastly, I would like to thank you for your response to this and feedback I've been sending. I know my feedback has been quite blunt at times, but I will strive to offer solutions to any criticisms I may have least well thought out reasoning why my opinion differs.

Keith Horsfield
Member Team OS/2
“To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail”
E-mail: afn09454@afn.org
Home page: http://www.afn.org/~afn09454
Brought to you by OS/2

Hardby: Ilshar Aki

Subject: [GREYTALK] Hardby: Ilshar Aki
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:44:27 EDT
From: ""
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

This post is mostly inspired by Chris Jarvis' concept of Ra'al'tsvar, the keepers of the sacred bloodlines. I absolutely adore his work on ancient societies of Oerth. Basically, what I'm attempting to do here is use this concept in the context of Hardby as described in The Adventure Begins and Artifact of Evil, and the Suel language and culture from The Scarlet Brotherhood accessory. I am using tSB's Suel language, though in Jarvis' terms it should probably read Il'shar'aki, or perhaps Il'shar'tsvar. If I'm horribly misusing his ideas, I apologize.

Begin:
In the wake of the Rain of Colorless Fire, many heresies sprung up in an attempt to deal with the changes forced up on Suloise society. For a while, one of the most prevalent was allowing the belief in the sacred matrilinear bloodlines along which magical potency is passed to fill the vacuum left by the old hierarchies of power. For some, this reverence for bloodlines manifested itself as severe racial intolerance, a fear that purity was the highest and most holy goal remaining, some going so far as to create deliberate human breeding programs. For others, it meant that all of the remaining power went to the carriers of the blood -- the women (among the Cruskii and the Shnaii, it meant that women were actively repressed for fear of their potential influence, and the female thaumaturgii were forced to go underground as witches. The Fruztii remained egalitarian).

The tiny house of Norbe Nehelifon was of the matriarchal persuasion. Mob, the ancient matriarch, saw it as her holy duty to uphold the principle of Shar Aki -- Pure Womanhood -- and nearly destroyed her house warring against the barbarious Oeridians, who treated their guardians of purity like chattel. Her grandaughter Ena was wiser, and lead the survivors of the family (including such historical figures as Molly and Jaka Norbe) to the promisingly-named Wild Coast.

It was not to be. The Coast was too crowded already with crass bandits and desperados scarcely better than Oeridians, ruling each other by strength and force of arms, ignoring their ancient roots and connection to the subtle arts entirely. The Norbes moved on and settled in a deepwater port across the Wooly Bay, trading with and learning to survive from the matriarchal Flan tribes.

It was from the Flan that the new settlement -- called Il Shar Aki by the Norbes, and Harada (later vulgarized as Hard Bay, then Hardby) by the natives -- was to gain much of its culture. While still governed by the principles of its Suel founders, the daughters of Ilshar Aki found that the rather limited pantheon of Wee Jas, Xerbo and Osprem didn't serve them in their new home half so well as the goddesses of the Flan. A temple to Beory was concecrated in the first farms under instructions from the Flan as they taught the new settlements in agriculture, but the goddess that spoke loudest to the settlers was Ehlonna, the Horned Lady. Associated by the locals with moons, magic, the forest, and armed protection from those who would desecrate her, Ehlonna seemed to be the core of everything the Norbes were striving for. While Ena's name is included on the foundation stone of Ehlonna's first great church, and her body was laid to rest in the family tomb there, it isn't clear that the first Despotrix herself ever worshipped anyone but Wee Jas. Certainly, no invocations to the Horned Lady ever appeared in her tomb. Nevertheless, by the time of Ena Norbe's death, Ehlonna's reverence was
firmly entrenched.

Hardby today isn't the dominatrix paradise it is sometimes made out to be by prejudiced sailors and boastful townsfolk. It's a cosmopolitan port, and the casual visitor won't notice any marked differences from any of the other free ports in the domain of Greyhawk and the Wild Coast. Hardby depends on trade for its wealth, and it will do nothing to discourage visitors. Longtime and frequent residents know, however, that the city's balance of power is firmly in the hands of the women. Temples exist that cater to most of the Flanaess' gods and philosophies, but the biggest are the Jasidan, Ospremi, Beoric, and Istusian cathedrals, towering over the port town's skyline.

The philosophy of "Shar Aki" (still in the name inscribed in the city's record books) today refers less to the purity of fleshy blood (Hardby is now firmly multiethnic) than to the "flow" of the world and women's connection to it. The polis of Hardby believes that only women are fit to rule because only women are capable of truly understanding their place in Her greater scheme. This philosophy has also carried over to combat, and female knights are more common than male. Don't mistake this for some drippy New Age mantra; the female powers are old and fierce, and the Oerth's blood runs thick with hate as much as love. The original idea of the sacred bloodline still has currency among magical residents, though no racial stigma is attatched. Magical potential is searched for without regard to racial origin, as the existence of the half-gnomish illusionist Guma Norbe confirms.

Re: The Duchy of Tenh (Scottish rite)

Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:14:21 -0700
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
From: “C. Jarvis” cjarvis@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] The Duchy of Tenh (Scottish rite)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

In response to Scott’s muchly deserved flaming of my posterior over the “You’re not Scot Mr. Jarvis” discussion of the Tenha:

---Ouch, that really hurt. But I must concede, Mr. Rennie, you would certainly know better than I. I must insist that I meant not to slight or insult with my missive.

>Ordinary?! ORDINARY!!!

----Okay, there are only extraordinarie Scots. I’m in the SCA, and there you cannot swing a stick without hitting a Scot. Or a Celt. Or a Norse for that matter…

>Oh yeah! Where in Scotland do you live – maybe we could meet up sometime?

---I am (or might be) related to any of several dead (ex-) Scots, Irish, Welsh, Brits, Dutch & the odd German (Quaker). I have not had the pleasure or oppurtunity to make my way to Scotland (yet); but I did float past it… I live in Seattle, which only shares a certain turn of weather with Scotland.

>Why? What are ‘the Scottish’ like?

---I imagine they are somewhat sensitive of any slights to their heritage. Any categorizations I would make would fall short of the entirety…

>The Scots tartans (not ‘plaid’ – a plaid is the name of the garment which t
>kilt originated from, not the pattern) were not originally so colorful as
>they once are, since old dyes tended to be made from natural sources.

---You know what a tartan is. I know what a tartan is. Under “Racial & National Dress” from WoG Gazeteer vol 3:

Oerdians typically favor checks and plaids. Aerdi and Nyrondal houses tend to wear plaids, while the southern and western Oeridians favor checks, often of a diamond pattern or similar variation from the standard square. Clothing tends toward tight-legged trousers, close-fitting upper garments, and capes or cloaks.

When I read this back in 1983 and was looking to find a flavor for the Oerdians it hit me that I could use an analog to the peoples of the British Isles. Considering that one of the major deities of the Oerdians is Procan, it supported the fact that they were sea-farers, or at least from a place by the sea (not south west of the Paynims & Ull).

>Also, the ’83 set states the ‘Flannae once wore brightly-hued body paints.’
>The name ‘Scot’ means ‘painted warrior’, taken from the old (ie pre-Roman)
>Scots habit of covering their entire bodies in (usually blue) war paint, so
>that even if they lost their clothes in battle they would not be naked.

----Are you a Wode-Warrior sir? Lots of peoples still wear or worn brightly-hued body paints. The ’83 says nothing of the Flani going into battle ‘sky-clad’.

[Text missing]

>existed).

---Addressed above.

>A borgue???

---No a brogue. I think this is an American thing. Every player I know gives his character an outrageous accent (done very badly). I have seen individuals from the region in question visibly wince upon hearing such absurd utterances. I don’t know why we do it…

>>Zilchus is very Scottish.
>I see – the ‘Scots as a bunch of tight-fisted money-grubbing skinflints
>stereotype’.

---joke, joke. I didn’t mean it. I take it back. Sorry, sorry.

>>And you really can’t say “Fharlanghn” without a slight lilt and
>>rolling your r’s.
>Well, I certainly can’t – but to be honest it sounds more Welsh to me, which
>brings me on to…
>>The double ‘l’ in Delleb becomes Welsh, and you are good to go.
>Good to go where? Wales maybe. The Welsh have nothing to do with the Scots!

---Geographically Wales and Scotland are connected (for better or worse) to the same land mass. If one extends the analogy of the Oeridians (a large diverse people) to the peoples of the British isles (say the Celts and earlier peoples), who are also diverse…then one could get away with such an act.

>Yep, you have no preference for any ract to be ‘Scottish’, but if you are goi
>to do it, get your facts right.

--I shall differ to you sir.

>Anyway, I think the Scots/Tenh link goes a lot further back than Braveheart
>I seem to remember asking before where it came from, and someone suggested
>EGG himself thought of it that way.

---I wouldn’t know. I grew up, gamed, and crafted my own version of WoG in the cultural wastelands of Montana. I’ve seen too many of EGG’s pontificating rants to take anything he says seriously. I mean no offense but this is merely an opinion formed from various and sundry DRAGON articles in the early 80’s. Situations change. People and opinions change. Life goes on.

>Another dimension you forgot is the religious aspect – we had, and still
>have, quite a bit of religious fervor here in Scotland. From the Covenants
>earlier on, to present day sectarianism between the Catholics and
>Protestants, it is a hot-bed of religious fire here, albeit not so tense as
>Northern Ireland I might add.

---I hadn’t forgotten this aspect, I just lacked an appropriate way of applying it. Do the Flani seem this religiously fervent? Such zeal hardly seems to fit (if one were to apply this analogy).

>Again, I should caution against taking any analogy too far. The
>peoples of Greyhawk are unique and any comparison to a culture or people
>on a world berift of magic & majesty is bound to fall short.

---I agree, I would also like to reiterate (in light of Mr. Walsh’s comments) that this comment does apply to my own Oeridian-Scottish/Irish/etc. analog. I am just as guilty as anyone else—and I know this and am fully cognizant of my actions.

>IMC incidentally, the closest to a Scots-based people are a ‘lost tribe’ of
>Flan who fled Haradaragh before its downfall, being forced from their next
>homes in the Good Hills then the Stark Mounds and southern Geoff by the
>advancing nation of Keoland, finally disappearing into the Crystalmists.

---Are the Haradaragh detailed anywhere? I don’t own everything Greyhawk (yet). IMC the clans of Geoff & Sterich are fairly close to being Scots-based: sporting individual clan tartans (though with some colors the Scots traditionally don’t use—which are attributed to Suel, Baklunae, Flani, and non-human influences), beating on each other when there is no one threatening their lands, etc. Though they have had to deal with successive incursions of other peoples.

Again I would with to reitterate, that I meant no malice by my post. I merely saw things differently than Mr. Walsh (I hope I have at least gotten the name right).

Still flanning the flames on my behind,
Chris Jarvis, living in Seattle and occasionally wearing a dress (I mean tunic…no really)

ancient flan kingdoms

Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 20:17PM PST
From: "" Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] ancient flan kingdoms

My continually evolving ideas are currently stopped at this, influenced primarily by Taras Guarhoth, Paul Redmond, (both of whom almost certainly based their work partially on that of Steve Wilson in the Oerth Journal I) and the Gurps Fantasy II book. Also, I took some gods from The Gargoyle.

A little from Joe Katzman, too. I blatantly contradicted much of what the above worthies did, for which I apologize, but it was the only way I could get it all to fit! Gah! My words are too long! I never say "whom!"

Ancient Flanni Cultures

Acererak's Despotry: Acererak, a son of Orcus, encouraged the worship of his sire in his subject lands (which included Sunndi and the Lordship of the Isles), as well as Orcus' subjects Baphomet and Hacamuli. The ancient god Wastri, once credited as the creator of the human race throughout the southern lands, still retained a following in Acererak's day. The faithful of Olidammara were a popular scapegoat, and heavily persecuted.

Cairn Hills: The original inhabitants of the Cairns are mysterious; they may have been the same as the rulers of Vô. In any case, they vanished, leaving only their tombs as evidence of their existence. For millenia, the native hillfolk worshipped Beory, Krovis, Pelor, Nerull, Trithereon, and Ehlonna.

Dal Wiim (Burneal Forest, Land of Black Ice): The natives of Dal Wiim worshipped the snow, and are said to have had magical powers over it.

Derrak: Derrak, to the east of the Nyr Dyv, was a necromantic society strongly influenced by the Olman Empire and the Kingdom of Sulm. It was one of the root cultures that would ultimately found Loryiaelor. They revered Allitur, Nerull, Pelor, and Berei, with druids of Beory and Obad-hai common in rural regions. Incabulos was much feared, and blamed for ancient plagues which devestated the nation.

Galap-Driedel: an extremely short-lived offshoot of Vô in the Cairn Hills region; defeated by halflings some five years after its founding.

Geoff: The Flannae of the valley south of the Barrier Peaks were druidic, as most of the western Flan not influenced by the people of Rao were, and as such looked primarily to Beory and Obad-hai, though many adopted the gods of their gnomish and elvish allies.

Hidden Land: The valley now claimed by the Black One was always an elven land. The valley elves and gnomes originally worshipped various entities from the plane of Shadow.

Itar: unknown, but doubtless very ancient. There seems to be no bottom to the ruins of this culture, and its gods, if that's what they were, are unrecognizable.

Ket (and thereabouts): The Flannae living between the Yatils and Crystalmists primarily adopted the Baklunish gods, though some stubbornly followed the way of Rao.

Kreptaris: The kingdom of the arch-lich Kreptaris gur-Hoth a noble of Vô who ruled part of Loryiaelor for several hundred years after Vô's fall.

Lordship of the Isles: After Acererak left this world, these islands, formally subject to his rulership, became a fanatic theocracy dedicated to the obliteration of all magic (worshipped Allitur, Berei, Wastri and Aizun, goddess of strife).

Loryiaelor (Bandit Kingdoms, Tenh): Considered to be the flower of Flanni civilization by many; worshipped Allitur, Nerull, Pelor, Berei, Beory, and Obad-hai.

Mad Lands: The unpleasant territory now claimed by Iuz was once controlled by a number of cruel and insane demigods of various animal aspects. The native human culture was well-adapted to their harsh existence, and could be kind among themselves. The Madlander gods were slain by Iuz shortly before his ascension.

Rimtach: A nomadic people of the Bandit Kingdoms related to the Rovers; one of the two peoples who founded Loryiaelor. The Rimtach worshipped Beory, Obad-hai, and Allitur.

Rovers: The nomads of the north, related to the Rimtach. The Rovers worshipped the Horsemother (Ehlonna), Old Woman (Beory), Old Man (Allitur), Ugly Beast (Mykal, god of beasts), Coyote, Reindeer, Remhoraz, Raven, and Mammoth. They recognized, but did not worship, the gods of the sun and moons.

Spidered Throne, Empire of the: Vecna's empire was in the Sheldomar Valley, or nearby (perhaps in Geoff or Sterich: there are a variety of styles of architecture in ruins throughout the region which the locals invariably claim were the site of Vecna's capitol. Usually these turn out to be Suloise in origin, or forgotten early fortresses of the Keoish empire. Some of the strongest candidates are found in the Duchy of Ulek, and Vecna's "empire" may have been limited to that region). Whatever the case may be, the land was dominated by the cult of Vecna himself, along with a number of entities collectively called the Circle of Darkness. The priesthoods of Rao, Beory, Joramy and Zodal, always strong in the Sheldomar and Javan basins, never died out in the Empire of the Spidered Throne.

Sulm (Bright Desert): A kingdom of great magic, worshipping Pelor and Nerull in dualistic fashion, along with the Dark God (Raven, sometimes confused with Tharizdun with contemporary scholars), Boccob, and various outer planar lords. There was a heavy Olman influence, and Incabulos was much feared.

Thillronia: The wanderers of the Thillronian Penninsula had shamans who ministered to a variety of spirits, including Reindeer, Tree-of-Life, He Who Slices Through Glaciers Like Warm Blubber, Sun Wolf (Pelor), Hound of Hell (Nerull), Raven (a creator god), and Oerth Mother (Beory)

Tilvanot: The hunter-gatherers of this penninsula worshipped Allitur, Nerull, Olidammara, and Pelor. An earlier culture, vanished by this time, worshipped Tharizdun exclusively.

Trakon (Pomarj): The Drachensgrab penninsula was home of a few small city-states based on sea trade and mining, along with a few core crops. The Trakon worshipped a number ancient heroes, including Krovis, along with the gods Ehlonna and Trithereon. Their civilization was destroyed by an invasion of gnolls, although their culture survived south of the Lortmils and along the Sheldomar.

Tribelands: The lands now inhabited by the Tiger and Wolf Nomads and up the coast of the Drawmij were once dominated by Rover-like tribal peoples, anarchic in government and dedicated to personal spirit guides drawn from ancestors and local animals.

Ur-Perrenland: The cold Yatil mountains and the shores of Lake Quag were, during the earliest days of the Baklunish, controlled by dwellers in massive black cities (of which Mordenkainen's Obsidian Citidel is a remnant). Before famine ended their reign, they revered the elder gods Boccob, Tharizdun, Cyndor and Louhi. Afterwards they became a clannish society of hunters and raiders, absorbing gods from whatever people they met, including Bleredd, Beory, Trithereon, Obad-hai, Mykal, Ulaa, Incabulos, and Aotar, the goddess of winds. In modern times, Heironeous has become known as the king of the gods, and many Oeridian gods have entered the pantheon, especially the gods of the winds.

Sterich: This reclusive valley was dominated by druids dedicated to a local version of Obad-hai.

Vô: The Isles of Woe and conquered lands, known for its mysterious, possibly half-human rulers and powerful magic. Shrines to Boccob are common to ruins of this culture found on the mainland.

Voll: The people here, subsistance farmers like most of the early members of their creed, were monotheistic worshippers of Rao, who they claimed had reshaped their lands from mountains to plains in order to increase their prosperity.

Yuir (modern Yeomanry): The elves of this valley had their own pantheon that was eventually absorbed into the Seldarine. The native firbolgs worshipped the gods of the giants.

dys times are unholy,
Rip Van Wormer