Re: LG: The DoU capitulates

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] LG: The DoU capitulates
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:56:37 -0400
From: Samuel D. Weiss
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

>That's just it. From what I gather, the "Triads" don't really "produce"
anything and probably never will.<

By produce you must mean publish. You can't mean never write anything as we
sure as heck are writing quite a bit. And a good portion will be available
on the web sites the Triads will maintain.

>As for "growing" and becoming "better", I think the "Too many cooks,
spoil the broth." proverb will apply here. The end result will be
so bland as to be adventureless.<

How about "a pinch of this, a pinch of that" instead?
Greyhawk is huge. The original glossography had what, 500 words max on each
country with most coming in under half that? Maybe if someone had started
back when it first came out they might be able to show half of what the
Triads will develop for LG by this time next year. Not to mention the
intense difficulty of one person really making so many places unique and
individual. No, by having a different "cook" for each course of the LG meal
you will get a wonderful melange of tastes and flavors to suit even the most
discriminating palate.

Sam Weiss
Keoland Triad

Re: Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors

RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:29 AM
From: "Creighton Broadhurst" Add sender to Contacts
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Hey Otto,

Sorry I got the wrong end of the stick. The Sinking Isle would be a cool link in to the Tomb of Horrors, but I don't think any published module has ever dealt with the area. I think a lot of adventure tie-in ideas depend on how old you decide the tomb is. I don't have my files here, but I don't recall any definitive date for the tomb's construction. Acererak could definitely have gained lost/forbidden knowledge from the Soul Gem and the Ghost Tower and by exploring many of the locations in the Bright Desert (I'm thinking of Darkbridge Temple and the Necropolis of Unnagh [sp] in
particular).

In regard to obtaining LG materials, there is no "legal" way left to do so. WoTC owns all the rights to all core adventures (and all other adventures and materials they paid for) and at this time I doubt they have any interest in releasing them.

Creighton Broadhurst
Check out my blog at Raging Swan
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."


-----Original Message-----
From: Otto Zequeira [mailto:ozequeira@yahoo.com]
Sent: 27 July 2009 14:48
To: greytalk@canonfire.com; Creighton Broadhurst
Cc: oteta@aol.com
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors


Hi Gents. Thanks for the replies.

Good idea, Greg, as to the Soul Gem being an inspiration for Acererak.

Creighton, to clarify, as I showed with the list below, I want to keep the Tomb in its original location, but simulate a search for the Tomb with some standalone adventures. You mentioned LG materials. I remember that there was a Tzunk-related adventure for LG. How may one obtain that?

Any other thoughts for stand-alone adventures in the areas below? Thanks again for the ideas.

Otto Z.

Iuz, highest hill: ?
>
> Island in the Nyr Dyv: Tzunk (adventure
> available?)
>
> Bright Desert: Rary the Traitor (especially
> Sulm), Ghost Tower (Soul
> Gem with
> soul-stealing power like Acererak)
>
> Duchy of Geoff: Expedition to the Barrier
> Peaks
>
> Vast Swamp:
> Tomb
>
> Island beyond Sea Barons: Turucambi or the
> Sinking Isle (Greyhawk Adventures)
>
--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Creighton Broadhurst wrote:

> From: Creighton Broadhurst
> Subject: RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
> To: greytalk@canonfire.com
> Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 6:51 AM
>
> RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of
> Horrors
>
> Hey all,
>
> It depends how old you want the tomb to
> be. I'm not sure how you would tie it into
> Expedition to the Barrier Peaks but placing it in the Bright
> Desert or an island beyond the Sea Barons would be
> funky. In the Bright Desert, it could tie into
> ancient Sulm dark practises or on the island
> beyond the Sea Barons it would probably be an old Flan
> site. In either event the tomb would probably be
> around 1500 - 2000 years old. If you go with the Tzunk idea
> the tomb would be really old IMO (although I don't have
> access to all my file to give an exact
> approximate date ;-( )
>
> With the Tzunk and Sea Barons idea there is
> a dearth of publishing material. If you
> shoot for the Bright Desert, DUNGEON published
> a couple of articles on the area and the D&D web site
> did have some additional articles. LG also produced a core
> module set around the Tomb (but this assumes it is
> in its "correct"
> location.
>
> Creighton Broadhurst
> Check out my blog at Raging Swan
> "You miss 100% of the shots you > don't take."
>
>
> -----Original
> Message-----
>
> From: Otto Zequeira [mailto:ozequeira@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 26 July 2009 17:31
> To: greytalk@canonfire.com; Otto Zequeira
> Subject: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
>
> Dear all:
>
> How are you? Hope you are doing
> well. My players have decided to go after what will
> turn out to be the Tomb of Horrors, though they don't
> know it yet.
>
> The original adventure listed alternative
> locations for the tomb. I thought it might be a good
> opportunity to tie in some adventures that they have not
> enjoyed yet.
>
> Any suggestions for the locations below,
> especially with good, published material, would be greatly
> appreciated. Thanks ahead of time.
>
> Otto Z.
>
> Iuz, highest hill: ?
>
> Island in the Nyr Dyv: Tzunk (adventure
> available?)
>
> Bright Desert: Rary the Traitor (especially
> Sulm), Ghost Tower (Soul
> Gem with
> soul-stealing power like Acererak)
>
> Duchy of Geoff: Expedition to the Barrier
> Peaks
>
> Vast Swamp:
> Tomb
>
> Island beyond Sea Barons: Turucambi or the
> Sinking Isle (Greyhawk Adventures)

Re: Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)
Friday, November 13, 2009 12:20 PM
From: "CJ MacLean"
Add sender to Contacts
To: "'greytalk'"

I am pretty sure that newspapers weren't used until the 17th century, does this fit well with the material previously presented?

The number of scribes it would take to produce this material versus the cost of the paper 1cp/issue and the cost of a scribe is 15gp/month is prohibitive. The cost of the paper (papyrus et. al) per sheet is more than the 1cp price of the paper. The cost of using magical spells to do this is also prohibitive versus the cost of a paper. No one would be able to afford a paper if it were created using the rules of any version of D&D.

Apart from these obvious complaints. The idea of printing presses has never been shown in any published material despite some great detail of Greyhawks locations.

CJ

From: kruch7@cox.net [mailto:kruch7@cox.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:49 AM
To: greytalk
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

What do you mean previously written, I see nothing previously written that says Greyhawk wouldn't have a new paper, and I know of no evidence of an army of bards roaming the city either as for town criers we do know they are in the city. If there is a reference some where that states there no possibility of a news sheet with all the scribes they have and magic users I will believe you. have to reread my gord the rogue books and see if there is a reference in them

Ken
Gygax is to Gaming What Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil then you
WWBYD What would Brigham Young do

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:40 PM, CJ MacLean wrote:
I am sure some people have loads of horseless carriages, gun powder, and teenage mutant ninja turtles, it doesn't mean that it fits with what has previously been written. As I said I am not commenting on the ideas presented, only in the concept of a newspaper in the world of Greyhawk.

Did you have something you wanted to add to this topic?

CJ

From: kruch7@cox.net [mailto:kruch7@cox.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:44 AM
To: greytalk
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

every one has their own vision of greyhawk city, even Gary imagined it different them most run it

Gygax is to Gaming What Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil then you
WWBYD What would Brigham Young do

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:36 AM, CJ MacLean wrote:
There are many reasons why they shouldn't be canon, and none of them have to do with the content. The Grumbler is whimsical and kind of cute but I have issues with the concept. The city of Greyhawk shouldn't have printing presses, or armies of scribes, or magical devices to mass produce newspapers. The idea of a newspaper is a way to get information to players in the RPGA but is not legitimate for a medieval fantasy setting. Town criers, bellmen, bards or bulletin board postings are more in keeping with the setting.

While a good portion of the city is literate a larger portion of it is not. Why can't the Greyhawk Grumblers be a group of bards? a printing press sets a bad precedent.

CJ

From: Samuel Weiss [mailto:samwise1@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 1:00 PM
To: GREYTALK List
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

>Those Greyhawk grumblers aren't for real (canon) are they?<

Why wouldn't they be?

Winter Fantasy 2000

Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 10:02AM PST
From: Scott Casper Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] Winter Fantasy 2000

Hi! Here at last is my much-delayed report on Winter Fantasy 2000. Erik Mona has already shared with us the only big news to come from the convention, but this may be useful to anyone else thinking of attending Winter Fantasy in the future. If you
learn nothing else, make sure to never play a tournament module written by Gregory Detwiller!

Hi again! This last weekend, I attended Winter Fantasy 2000 for Saturday only. This is my story.

I drove to the convention, making sure to arrive the night before so I could get to the convention quickly in the morning. However, I had chosen a Motel 6 to save money. This motel was located in the red light district of Ft. Wayne, which consisted of the entire west side of town. There were more strip clubs on one street then there were fire hydrants.

That's all I'll say on that subject...

Ft. Wayne has a very tiny downtown. In fact, it's so small that some residents one might ask for directions do not even know where it is. "Head that way and look for the tall buildings," one of them might say. But such a person not only is clueless as to where their downtown is, but has also clearly never been to Chicago. As a Chicagoan, Ft. Wayne's "tall buildings" looked more like speed bumps to me.

So I arrived for the convention, but ten minutes past the start of the first time slot. My disappointment was not lessened when I learned that two-thirds of the events I had wanted for that day were booked solid already. I also discovered soon enough what a small con Winter Fantasy was. There was no open gaming. What passed for an exhibit hall looked more like somebody's closet with a lot of people crammed into it. Kenzer was the only big name company with a booth. Later, I compared notes with the guy manning the booth about how hard it is to get published by DUNGEON Magazine.

Luckily, I ran into my friend Darren almost right away. He is big-time into the RPGA, and had actually signed up for the Living Greyhawk Preview even ahead of time (I had assumed it would be more like a seminar for a larger crowd). I sat at the table next to his and listened in as some TSR guy explained how 3rd edition is supposed to work. I've since read more about 3rd ed. rules than I was able to overhear, but I was impressed at the time by aspects of the initiative system (though I detest the 6-second round), disappointed with clerical spell domains which seem to limit selection even more than spheres did, and shivered at the thought of Find Familiar being reduced to a cantrip.

Erik Mona was running the same thing at the table on the other side of me. Darren was with a group of Living City players who were curious about Living Greyhawk, but Erik's group consisted almost entirely of the Dyvers triad and their entourage. The Dyvers team was the most visible triad at the convention, and even had spiffy Dyvers T-shirts! Erik Mona seemed to recognize me and asked me how I was doing. I bored him for a bit about how awful my morning was turning out. Most of the time, I just sat there working on Greyhawk material.

After the Previews ended, and after exhausting what little there was to do at the con without an event ticket, I wandered outdoors to see what "downtown" Ft. Wayne had to offer. It turned out to be much more interesting than the convention! In addition to a variety of neighboring fast food places, there was a conservatory (but I balked at the thought of having to pay to enter when Chicago's conservatory is free). A few blocks away, however, was the County Public Library -- and was that place ever great! Comicbook racks of the latest titles that could be checked out, an impressive graphic novel collection in Young Adults (all the trade paperbacks of BONE, plus two USAGI YOJIMBO collections), a Government Documents department that put my own to shame, and -- coincidentally -- the Children's Dept. was having Middle Ages-inspired activities!

I killed a lot of time there, but came back to the convention late that afternoon. There was a seminar about Living Greyhawk where we got to meet the Council and all the triads in attendance, and hear a little about their progress and plans. I was looking for the Verbobonc triad, and heard that one of them was there, but never saw him. I also heard from some people in the crowd that Gamma World was coming back (yeah!), but as an Alternity setting (boo!). Erik Mona announced the Living Greyhawk newsletter, as well as Polhedron's commitment to publishing Greyhawk material. I asked if the newsletter would require a separate subscription from Polyhedron, and was told it wouldn't. After the seminar, I wanted to ask Erik if there were plans to assign Ahlissa yet, and if Polyhedron would like articles on Ahlissa, but the Council members were all hungry for dinner and didn't seem to be in the mood to answer more questions.

I had managed to get just ONE event ticket for something I had wanted to play, and that was the Call of Cthulu Open. As luck would have it, my friend Darren had signed up for it as well. And he knew our Keeper personally from his RPGA experience, so it looked to be a good time. I could not have been more wrong. The adventure was a piece of excrement written by a bed-wettting moron named Gregory Detwiller. The adventure started out with our characters being drugged and then mind-transferred into the bodies of members of the Great (though not in this context) Race of Yith. From there the module squashes all chances to role-play, as the Yithians punish you for showing any signs of denial. Everyone is expected to blindly accept life as a Yithian, as there is no chance of escape UNTIL a certain section of the tournament when a ridiculously huge window of opportunity presents itself. From there it's just wandering Cthulu encounters until everyone runs out of Sanity points. Of course, long before that happened, my character strangled himself to death to spare himself from the pain and frustration which is a Gregory Detwiller tournament.

I never did find out who won that round. Thankfully there wasn't a second round of it. The Keeper apologized for the tournament module afterwards, confessing that it had gone so badly the day before that it had made her cry. Darren and I complained to somebody (Darren said he was important) about the appaling lack of intelligence in Gregory Detwiller's writing, to which he replied that this was not the first time he had heard as much.

And so, having experienced what the RPGA has to offer, I returned to my motel, and the next day left to come home.

Serten the sacrifice

Subject: [GREYTALK] Serten the sacrifice Re: [GREYTALK] Serten the Still
Dead
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 06:09:27 -0400
From: Jason Zavoda
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

On Sun, 20 Aug 2000, Erik Mona wrote:

> I don't have that source in front of me, so I can't check to see if all of
> those mentioned are indeed mages (Iuz?), but ignorance of the "real" Serten,
> whether by the mercenaries who wrote Greyhawk Ruins or by part of the vaunted
> "Team Greyhawk" is hardly solid ground on which to build a rhetorical castle.
> :)

Serten is one of the old guard and the battle of Emridy Meadows one of the legendary events. Neither should be altered casually.

> >>>
> And the battle has several paragraphs written about it as well.
> >>>
>
> Piffle.

Piffle? Hardly Piffle. Three paragraphs on Pg11 of the guide to the world of Greyhawk, three = several, a few slight mentions elsewhere.

>
> The sum total of information on that battle can hardly be classified as
> "several paragraphs." Certainly there is no accounting of even the generals
> in the battle, or even, for that matter, where the hell "Emridy Meadows" is,
> specifically. I hardly think the loss of a borderline retarded priest of St.
> Cuthbert, even if he had powerful friends, qualified for the type of
> "top-line" news ("the good guys won") that we have on the battle so far.
>
Sure it does, why was Serten brought up in the LGJ in the first place and sacrificed except for name recognition. History can be rewritten and named characters can be killed.
Woo-Wee!

> >>>
> To glibly throw out such a
> useful character especially because he is a mystery and still a legend
> is an unfortunate choice.
> >>>
>
> What about Serten makes him "useful"? I can think of a few reasons why it
> might be neat to have the dumb but well-meaning cleric from Rogue's Gallery
> still alive, but all are outweighed, in my opinion, by the implication that
> the "heroes" (or at least "main characters") of the Greyhawk campaign are
> mortal.

No, they're fictional, and so is the entire setting, but consistancy helps to make the fiction believable and keeping away from glibly killing off major NPC's keep the setting useful to the widest range of gamers.

>
> And, if you like the guy so much, I guess there's some similarly-named
> misguided mage out there that everyone's free to use. :)
>
> >>>
> Choosing to alter the campaign in such a notable way is even
> more unfortunate.
> >>>
>
> Whatever. If the choice is between leaving the campaign stagnant or exploring
> some of its mysteries and going forward, always leaving new mysteris behind,
> I'll choose the latter.
>
> --Erik
>

Whatever? Serten and the Battle of Emridy Meadows are both notable. Killing off a character and altering past history, just to prove a point, these things did nothing to create mystery or even explore the mysterious. They only prove that the campaign can change at any moment, that is more of a Forgotten Realms way of developing a campaign.
If you wanted to expand the setting you should have made Serten live, put depth and history behind him, make everyone understand why he had earned a name and place among the great and powerful.
Better to say that the Living Greyhawk made Serten live and be worthy of his well known name, than to say Living Greyhawk killed Serten to prove a point.
Death does not relieve stagnation it merely ends future potential.

Jason Zavoda

Serten, Hero of the State

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [GREYTALK] Serten, Hero of the State [was: Serten the Sacrifice]
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 07:11:00 -0400
From: Tracy Johnson
Reply-To: tmj@EXIS.NET
Organization: Justin Thyme Productions
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
References:

I agree with Jason, but only because my earlier doubts about Living Greyhawk and Greyhawk Canon are becoming true, despite assurances that Living Greyhawk and Greyhawk Canon were supposed to be two different things.

So it seems now that Living Greyhawk is starting to be substituted for Greyhawk Canon.

As a person that buys Hasbro products off-the-shelf, now it appears that in the near future, there will no longer be printed canonical Greyhawk material to spend my money on. Just nebulous bits and bytes that will live briefly for the moment on the "web"
like the mayfly it is. In a few years, these Living Greyhawk websites will die due to neglect and underfunding, then we can all go back to the printed material.

Even if a permanent site for GH canon material is sponsored by corporate giant Hasbro, can it be trusted that such material won't be tampered with? Has "1984" has come true in Greyhawk? Will yesterday's "Hero of the State" now be a traitor due to the whims of those in charge? "Oceania is our friend? Today, dear traitor, we're allied (and have always been) with..." "Do you say friend, that you read that Otto is 5'10" on the Hasbro website? I'm looking at it right now and it says he's 3'11"
and is a Gnome, as far as I know, he's always been this way."

Jason Zavoda wrote:
>
> Whatever? Serten and the Battle of Emridy Meadows are both
> notable. Killing off a character and altering past history, just to prove
> a point, these things did nothing to create mystery or even explore
> the mysterious. They only prove that the campaign can change at any
> moment, that is more of a Forgotten Realms way of developing a campaign.
> If you wanted to expand the setting you should have made Serten
> live, put depth and history behind him, make everyone understand why
> he had earned a name and place among the great and powerful.
> Better to say that the Living Greyhawk made Serten live and be
> worthy of his well known name, than to say Living Greyhawk killed
> Serten to prove a point.
> Death does not relieve stagnation it merely ends future potential.
>
> Jason Zavoda