Re: The Haughtiness of Elves [LONG]

Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:12:56 -0800
From: Chris Anderson
Subject: Re: The Haughtiness of Elves [LONG]

One good example deserves another... here's the attitudes from my campaign. Note: I do not consider elves to be evil either, and I use a modified Birthright Elf for the dominant strain in Celene. I also use the "Vecna destroyed the Elven Cities" concept from Tamerlain's timeline.

--
Chris Anderson
The Gravediggers Campaign
http://caa.invite.net/ADnD/default.htm

You're an Elf. First-born of the world. Your ancestors were here when the Dragons and Titans battled for dominance. In times more ancient than memory, your predecessors fought to make the Flanaess safe for all Elves, and in doing so, for all civilized peoples.

You're 300 years old. Barely into your adult years. In your great-grandparent's time (over 1500 years ago) the Flanaess was the cradle of Elven civilization, with glittering cities scattered across the continent, and enjoying a long period of peace and prosperity. The hateful Drow had been put down long before in the Chaos Wars, and the many other Good races in the Flanaess enjoyed the fruits of the Elven civilization. In this time, Celene was a rather rural, backwards place of great natural beauty, but little culture or learning. Of no comparison to the great cities of the Elves.

Then came Vecna.

Originally tutored by the Elves in the Arts, this hateful human had turned on his benefactors and warred against the People. As powerful as Elven Magic was, it could not withstand the viciousness and raw aptitude that Vecna brought to the Arts. He delved into areas which no Elven Mage of Power would dare. He bought Power with unspeakable acts, and made pacts with Forces that should never be thought of or named, much less summoned and bargained with.

City after City fell. Cities which had taken millenia of effort by hundreds or thousands of Elves -- each one designed to be more beautiful and grand than any other. Ground to dust under the unrelenting force of Vecna's power. Treasures which had taken millenia to create were destroyed in moments by savages too barbaric to even understand what they were destroying. Children who had known nothing but joy and delight for all of their lives were raped and tortured by Vecna's soldiers and then sold into slavery and abuse for the price of a loaf of bread.

It went on and on. Every Elven city or nation who dared to oppose Vecna, to avenge themselves, were ground into dust. No Elven House or family in all the Flanaess was unaffected, save for the unspeakable Drow.

And Celene. The Elves of Celene had withdrawn into the fastnesses of their forest and hidden from the might of Vecna. No challenge did they offer, no vengeance did they take. They were fugitives in their own land. At first this was considered a treasonous act by the other Kingdoms of the Elves -- cowardice in the extreme. Yet in the end, Celene survived and the others did not. Across the Flanaess, the only Elves who survived were those who did not go openly into battle, or who fled battle to hide.

Vecna eventually passed. During the same time, came the rampaging Suloise.
Their wandering Houses did not match the power of Vecna, but the Elves were broken and wandering as well. The Suloise killed and destroyed what they found, and the Elves hid again. Only Celene maintained its borders -- militantly watched this time. When the Twin Cataclysm's flared, most Elves heaved a sigh of relief that one more threat had been eliminated. Celene watched and waited.

The Oeridians came, and this time the Elves of the Flanaess were forced to treat with them. With humans. The same race which had caused so much woe. Thankfully, the Oeridians proved to be much more reasonable than the Suloise. The Kingdom of Aerdy was born, and slowly the Elves slipped back from their dens and hiding places to form small communities and mix with the humans.

Celene did not. They had no desire to mix with humans, whether or not they were better or worse than Vecna or the Suloise. If a Vecna could happen once, it could happen again. Humans were not to be trusted or mixed with. Certainly they were never to be allowed in Celene.

Time passed, and a younger generation came to power. They had been raised on the tales of Vecna and seen the effects on their families. Yet at the same time, they had seen for themselves humans living in peace with Elves and other demi-humans in other areas of the Flanaess. Their feelings were mixed. Most felt that humans were not to be trusted or mixed with. A minority felt that they should be exterminated. Another minority thought that Celene should deal with the humans in trade and politics. They were few, though.

More time passed, and the second generation past Vecna came of age. The Hateful Wars occurred. If humans did not help with the threat of the Pomarj, at least they did not fight on the side of the Goblinoids. Again Celene defended it's borders, and again the foe was thrown back. To the West, the Ulek States were rising and were providing an object lesson in Elven and Human accord. Tales of High Folk filtered in, where humans and Elves lived peacefully together.

Yet there were those who still lived that had seen the horror of Vecna personally. And their children who had heard the tales of Vecna and seen the Suloise. Celene was the last precious jewel of Elven civilization left in the Flanaess. It would be criminal to risk it so soon after it was threatened. And to mix with humans? The destroyers of so many Elven kindred? That would be betrayal in the extreme of all those who died and suffered in the Wars Against Vecna. No! The borders would remain closed.

--------------------------------------------

This is the state of affairs as of 579CY in my campaign. The borders are closed to human entry. However, there is a growing sentiment among some of the population that there should be more contact with humanity -- even to the extent of humans living within the borders. The vast majority of Elves believe in isolation from humanity, and there is a strong vocal minority that agitate towards more extreme measures as an act of vengeance against the race that spawned Vecna.

The Lady Yolande believes that Celene will not be able to isolate itself from the rest of the Flanaess for too much longer, as Elves reckon time. Yet, as Elves reckon time, that may be for several centuries longer. The factions jockey for position of influence in the Elven Court, and "the human question" is not yet settled.

Re: Vecna/migrations/Aerdy/Keoland (was: Vecna/migrations/Keoland)

Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 00:23AM PST
From: Taras Cranden-Guarhoth Add To Address Book Add To
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Vecna/migrations/Aerdy/Keoland (was:Vecna/migrations/Keoland)

> Bias! Bias!

And you're just NOW noticing this? :)

> Mr. "I Love Aerdy" doesn't see as many meatsnmagicks for Keoland, yes? It's because yer biased! The Valley of the Mage is *much* more mysterious and

I'd like to point out that it's an Aerdi who's ruling the Vale now. :P

> mighty than anything the decadent east has produced, and the stronghold of Vecna's empire witnessed things more potent and awful than ever the mild

Vecna's empire was overrated. After all, if all those Suel managed to migrate so successfully through the area, it obviously wasn't that big and powerful. :)

> ancestors of Tenha dreamt up. You don't think Celene, with all its ancient
> glamour, can hide their kingdom out of the sight of a rampaging horde of drug-starved Suloise or two? Keoland is the home of 90% of the surviving

No, I don't think that Celene can. After all, they were so scared of all those migrating Suel that they let the Keoish dominate them for hundreds of years. It took them that long to figure out that the migrations where over and kick out the Keoish. Which just happened to coincide with the Keoish Expansionistic Phase.

> treasures of the Suel Imperium, and the main destination for relics saved

This I have a lot of trouble beliving, since it was those Houses who had the most time to pack up their junk and run who didn't settle in Keoland. It was those who had the least time (ie: the Rhola and Neheli, the LATECOMERS to the migration game), and thus would have had the least treasures to bring with them. Odds are, most of the treasures ended up either in Oerid hoards, Urnst, or the Scarlet Brotherhood. Or completely lost in various dungeons.

> from the Ashen Desert. The fledgling Oerid outlander kingdoms were summarily
> crushed by the overwhelming might of the Suel public relations engines, their
> relics siezed at bargain basement prices. If the arch-tormenters of the

Yep. The Suel relics siezed at bargain basement prices. That's exactly what the Oerids did to all those Suel who fell into the lands they wanted. Like those of Urnst or the Iron League. Unlike those of Keoland, who didn't have time to flee with too much.

> underworld seem to be showing undue interest in the Great Kingdom, it's because they figured the land to be full of saps and easy marks. It's

Heh. Or maybe they just realize where the REAL power of the continent is, not in some two-bit, worn out, tired nation that was so insignificant, it barely got a page worth of information written about it. :P

> Keoland that has he ancient sites of *good* and *balance*, something the peoples of the east were afraid would hurt their chances in picking up chicks.

Name one of Good. I don't recall any, and I'm wondering if you saw something I missed, or if you're just making this up.

As for Neutral, bah, who cares about a bunch of fence-sitters? If they can't choose a side, they'll make a nice red stain on the grass when it comes time to go to war. >:)

> PS The Barrier Peaks? The Crook of Rao? The Crystalmists in general, and the alien secrets therein? The Hellfurnaces, the weapons of giants, and the
> eldritch chambers of the aboleth?

I refuse to recognize Expedition of the Barrier Peaks as one. After all, the Keoish didn't get to it. It just sat there unopened for all that time until some adventurers were sent in to hack up everything that moved.

And the Crook of Rao was in Aerdy for a time, too. After all, it was Drax the Invulnerable of Rel Astra who pawned off that useless trinket to the Canon of Veluna. Heh. The funny things those tourists will fall for. :P

I know of no secrets in the Crystalmists.

I don't regard a volcano as a mystical site.

I don't know what giant's weapons you're referring to, but I doub there's anything I'd consider mystical in there (if it's not unique, it's not even really that close, unless it's something that isn't made by people or monsters, like a dweomer stone).

And as for the aboleth....I thought you were championing good and neutral sites...not sites as evil as the Cauldron of Night. :P

> Probably not. He wouldn't share private megalomaniacal schemes with just any
> outsiders.

True, but outsiders would have noticed large numbers of Flan being forced to worship him, with rather large sacrifices being made (think Dragon-King of Tyr from Dark Sun for an example) as opposed to, well, people giving lip service and getitng away with it.

> They didn't care. They just closed the doors. The Suel never noticed them.

You're right. The Suel barely noticed the speed-bump that is the elves of Celene. Just rolled right over them until the elves admitted defeat and ran and hid. :)

==
Taras Guarhoth, Sage of House Cranden
http://www.bestweb.net/~guarhoth/

Re: The Duchy of Ulek "source document"

Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 04:55AM PST
From: sander Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] The Duchy of Ulek "source document"

> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:10:52 PST
> From: Immaculate Image
> Subject: The Duchy of Ulek "source document"

> Before I continue, I first have to credit Steve Wilson, who kindly allowed our Triad to use his Duchy of Ulek article from the Codex as the basis for our own purposes.
>
> Also if anyone is interested in contributing in any way, especially if you live in GA, get in touch with me.

I'm presently not in GA, indeed, I am quite far from it...

But I just love the Ulek states. There are lots of comments below. I have somewhy a feeling that some of these are due to the insufficent fleshing out of the County and Principality of Ulek.

> Slash it and smash it, baby, 'cause here it is....
>
> ULEK, DUCHY OF
> Ruler: His Noble Radiance, Duke Grenowen of Ulek
> Capital: Tringlee (pop. 14,800/ hex S4 -107)
> Major Settlements: Waybury (13,500/Y4 - 107), The Crossroads (4,100/W4 -109), Silverbend (3,200/U4 - 111)
> Population: 28,000

Wait a second. 14800+13500+4100+3200=35600 which is quite a bit more than the total population. Hence the total population should be increased.

> Demi-Humans: High Elves (12,500), Sylvan Elves (5,000), Gnomes (5,000), Tallfellow Halflings (2,500)

Shouldn't humans be listed here? After all, there are 25000 demihumans which leaves only 3000 humans. Unless teh population count is increased (see above).

> Humanoids: None
> Resources: Foodstuffs, Cloth, Electrum, Gems

And the rest of the writeup continues to totally ignore both foodstuffs and cloth, even though these are listed as resources and should thus be important.

> National Alignment: Chaotic Good

[big snip]

> already separate Ulek states and granted them their "independence." The High Elves in the northernmost portion of the province chose Grenowen to be their Duke. It was Grenowen who dared the mountains to the east, and more importantly, the illusion ridden and heavily guarded lands of
>Celene, to bring word of the plight of the elves of Ulek to the queen.

Is there an offical view of Grenowin or even a write-up?

> The High Elves of the northern third of Uleki province established the capitol for their country in one of the old Provincial Seats, in Tringlee.
> After a short while, Keoland welcomed this new government, recognizing the wisdom in local rule.

The wording amlmost sounds like it resulted in civil reforms in Keoland...

> The opening of neighboring Celene proved prosperous for the Duchy.
> Celene's fine products flowed exclusively through the Duchy into the rest of the Flanaess, and this trade, when added to that of the Duchy's own products, brought great wealth into the land. Up until the time of the Greyhawk Wars, the Duchy prospered. It is the most accessible of
> all elven lands to humankind and other demihumans, and this atmosphere has made the Duchy and the Duke popular both in his lands and abroad.

Meaning? Now that the GHW are over and Celene is not so open, what about the trade? As such a trade would also bring additional wealth into not only the Duchy of Ulek but also Celene, the merchants and anybody connected to them are going to be grumbling if it has stopped entirely, and would probably create a fair bit of smuggling. If it continues but is limited by say requiring a special royal permit or somesuch, it would create some smuggling and quite a bit of intrigue.

Which are IMHO excellent story leads.

[snip]

> southern lands. These nobles are also strongly in support of the Knights of Luna in Celene, and desire to help change Celene's isolationist policies. There is even some radical talk, that the Queen
> should be "forced" into agreeing to aid both Furyondy and Veluna to the north and the Principality of Ulek to the south. The Duke favors a more conservative diplomatic approach with regard to Celene and the solution of these problems.

IMC the Knights of Luna came to be due to advice by a Duchy noble to some nobles of Celene who like the atmosphere in the Duchy quite a bit more than the overly conservative atmosphere in Celene. The problem with providing help to foreign states is that your own forces get to see how others live...

[snip]

> dwarves, and gnomes of these mountains are supported by the Ulek states, less actively by Celene, and indirectly by small tribes of aarakocra that fly the central spine of the Lortmils. The wealth of the Lortmils
> is great, with excellent gems, ores, and precious metals. Some of the dwarven clan leaders are said to be as rich as princes, and are approached by emissaries from Furyondy and even Nyrond for aid. Dwarves
> are not, however, susceptible to such overtures.

Hmm... Not listed above in resources.

[snip - Rivers]

> Two ancient woodlands grow within the borders of Ulek, the remnants of the once great forest that spanned the length of the Sheldomar Valley from the Dim Forest hundreds of miles to the north, and the Dreadwood which lies hundreds of miles to the south. The Axewood is a small forest
> that straddles the border of Keoland and the Duchy of Ulek some 150 miles west of Tringlee and 60 miles north of Niole Dra. Wood elves and treants dwell here, as well as a number of small sprites (atomies and grigs). The other forest, the Silverwood, lies entirely in the confines

Somebody should work on those.

> of the southern reaches of the Duchy. Lying between the Sheldomar and Kewl rivers, this wood is home to some 3,000 sylvan elves and other demihumans (gnomes and a few halflings). The elves are said to nurture

Forest dwelling halflings?

[snip - additional forest]

[snip - roads, got to check it out on a map]

> ECOLOGY: The forests of the Duchy of Ulek are in a geographical position that tends to give them the best mixture of tree species from both what are considered typically Central and Southern woods in the Flanaess. The following list details the most important species to be found within the
> Duchy: apple, apricot, ash, bay, beech, briar, bronzewood, camphor, cedar, cherry, chestnut, chokecherry, crabapple, elder, elm, fig, galda, grapefruit, gum, hawthorne, hickory, hornwood, ipp, ipt, kara, larch, lemon, lime, locust, mangrove, maple, mulberry, myrtle, oak, olive,
> orange, peach, pear, phost, pine, plum, poplar, roanwood, thorn, tulip tree, usk, walnut, willow, yarpick, and yew. There are also the

The list is extensive. As there aren't for some reason the average temps by months listed [actually, this would be a very usefull information. Climate should always come first before ecology.] it is hard to say whetever all the trees would actually grow there. I am suspicious of apricot, orange, maybe also lemon. And I don't know all the other trees listed 8-(

> semi-intelligent and carnivorous plants to be found in remote areas of the forests. Choke creepers, hangmen trees, giant sundews and kampfults won't hesitate to end the life of an unwary or wounded adventurer.

These invariantly creep up.

> Although the Duchy is a relatively safe land, there are the odd encounters with dangerous life-forms. Humanoids are virtually non-existent within the borders of this country, and large groups of
> humanoids haven't walked the plains of the Duchy since before the Hateful Wars. There do remain hidden pockets of some humanoid races, though none are larger than orcs or bugbears. The smaller races, such as kobolds, jermalaine, xvarts, and goblins tend to fare better, though the
> most common humanoid plaguing the forests are the elusive kech. Igundi, skulks, kenku, adherers, and dopplegangers have also found a niche in various parts of the Duchy.

Way too many humanoids imho, especially considering the population toll of none. Sounds a lot more like 'small numbers of just about any small humanoid race can be occasionally be found'.

> Needlemen plague the Silverwood like few other places in the Flanaess, thriving on the predominence of elves. Also among the tiny creatures of the land are gremlins, fremlins, galltrits, killmouli, and booka, though the latter two are much more tolerable than the members of the gremlin
> family. It is more common to encounter wild herd animals on the plains, and on occasions, their monstrous variants. Predatory animals, such as brown bears, wolves, lions, cougars, and coyotes can also be found in more isolated areas of the Duchy.

Brown bears are omnivores. Cougras would probably live in the lortmils (but seeing as bears and lions live in mountainous areas as well - counsider their former populations in italy, greece and spain) I'm not sure if there would be a niche for cougars. And I would definately leave coyottes out.

> Among the true monsters, there is no shortage of isolated hazards.
> Anhkegs and ant lions are known to grab unwary travelers on the plains, and in the depths of the forest, owlbears can make short work of

Owlbears are cool.

[snip]

> rumors that a red dragon or two may still lair within the Lortmils, but such creatures would have to be crafty and secretive indeed to avoid the attentions of their eternal enemies, the dwarves. It is highly doubtful that any dragons reside in either the Axewood or the Silverwood. If such
> a beast did, however, it would be unusually intelligent, powerful, and

This all leaves out the various neutral and good dragons. Considering the whole galore of those that exist...

> careful, to be able to avoid the attention of the elves and the good aligned creatures of those woods. Whether or not any Greyhawk dragons have taken up residence in Tringlee or Waybury is another unknown.

> There are no large, stationary bodies of water within the borders of the Duchy, and the Sheldomar River and its tributaries are well traveled and safe. There is an abundance of fish species, and fisherman and

The rivers are first declared safe...

> adventures alike should be aware of the dangers presented by some of the giant members of certain of these fish, notably catfish. In the slower moving shallows below Niole Dra, dragonfish are also a lethal hazard to unprotected feet wading in the water. Nereids and water nagas are not
> unheard of in some of the remote areas of the rivers, especially where the Sheldomar passes through the Axewood. Fortunately, there is not much and then it sounds like nobody would go near the rivers, at least not without arming themselves to the teeth. There aren't all that many remote areas of the rivers either.

> to fear from more exotic and dangerous water-based predators, as there is little room and even less tolerance by the people who inhabit the shore communities for such creatures. Perhaps the most common "monster" that rears its ugly head every so often is the giant snapping turtle,
> and crocodiles bask on the banks of the Kewl below Silverbend. There are

Crocodiles? I am afraid that it would be a bit too cold for crocodiles, or the region (at least the south cost keoland and the principality) are quite a bit warmer than considered before. Note that the critical part here is temperature in the winter. That's why crocodiles don't in real life live on the northern cost of the Mediterannean but do live in Egypt.

> exceptions to this, when some ocean going monster travels north up past Gradsul and into the Sheldomar.

There ius a *long* way up from Gradsul and the water of teh river that may well be somewhat brakish down near Gradsul is definately not so up there, which would discourage the monsters to move too high up the river...

> Sylvan and faerie creatures thrive in this land. Brownies, buckawns, atomies, grigs, sprites, quicklings, pixies, mites, snyads, faux faeries, leprechauns, and stwingers all inhabit the forested areas of
> the eastern Sheldomar Valley, seeming to exist for the sole purpose of harassing the forest's larger two-legged inhabitants. Pseudodragons and

Well, this is a clear case of size-chauvinism.

> faerie dragons also haunt the woods, and dryads, nymphs, and korred reside in remote glens. There is also a significant population of centaurs and voadkyn, and no shortage of treants within the Silverwood.
> A truly lucky soul might even catch a glimpse of the rare unicorn, which also is known to inhabit that rich woodland.

If there is a significant population of centaurs, why aren't they listed in population? Why do they live in the forest? Horses don't normally...

POLITICS:

[snip - high elves rule the land, esp. the nobility]

> The Duke and his cabinet is responsible for handling matters which affect the entire realm, such as international relations and trade, and the maintenance of a national military. The local nobility of a given
> area, be they of whatever race, is responsible for all local governance.
> Waybury is of note in this regard, as over the years as it has increased in population it has increased its political influence, and is considered a seat of human influence within the Duchy.

At which point it springs to my mind that

> Three times a year, the Convocation of Lords is held. During this time, matters of national concern are presented to the elven nobility, and they give suggestions to the Duke on how to handle matters. The Duke
> also announces any policies he has decided upon which affect the entire realm. There are also influential advisers of other races that Grenowen may call upon, and the Duke is quite good in tapping the experience and wisdom of others.

Here is a contradiction. Shouldn't the elven be droped from in front of the nobility? Otherwise Waybury and the gnomes and halflings and humans would have no political influence.

> During the month of Lacysnows the third meeting of the year, the Convocation of Branches, is held. Here the nobility votes on whether or

As here is just nobility, not specificly elven nobility the previous paragraphs should be corrected.

> not they will continue to support the Duke by laying switches from the prized ipt trees on the ground in two piles--one for those who favor the Duke, and one for those opposed. Although it is entirely possible for any individual noble house to oppose the Duke actively, this has never
> carried to the point of warfare. The Duke may resign his post at any time he desires, at which point in time a special Convocation of Selection would be called.

How is the succession of the Duke handled?

[snip - the cabinet]

> There are no hostile nations bordering the Duchy, as they maintain good relations with Keoland and The Old Country's other former lands, from the Gran March to the Principality of Ulek. In addition, the Duchy of Ulek maintains a working relationship with many of the dwarven clans of
> the Lortmils and of course, has always had a strong kinship with the elven nation of Celene, though this has been subject to internal strain since the Greyhawk Wars.

The Duchy has quite a lot of gnomes in it's lands. Why not expand and (peacefully) get the dwarves to join in? Indeed, how much are the dwarves concerned who considers the surface area their own?

> Although several hundred miles away, Grenowen is well aware of the danger the Empire of the Pomarj presents to all of the Ulek states, and many troops and adventurers journey southeast from the Duchy to aid the forces of the Principality of Ulek in their struggles with Turrosh Mak.

Also a good reason to prod the Lortmils dwarves to join the Duchy.
Especially as teh Duchy is providing help to other dwarves and is clearly friendly to various races.

> Another tangible threat to the Duchy of Ulek, and all good lands of the Flanaess is the Scarlet Brotherhood. After the Greyhawk Wars, everyone took note of this sinister organization, including Duke Grenowen.
> Lastly, there are those who remember Keoland's imperialistic era, and are wary that a future king might want to return Keoland to its former glory.

Something they share in common with all the other border areas of the Keoland. A good reason for co-operation.

> MILITARY: The military of the Duchy is small but effective, and is noted for its many high elven fighter/mages. The most common activity performed by the army is patrolling the plains of the Duchy, and at most times some 25% of the total force is out on patrol. At any given time,
> the size of the army ranges from 1000 to 2000 strong. Perhaps half of this total is comprised of humans, another quarter high elves, and the

Considering that there may be as few as 3000 humans in the Duchy, a very significant portion of humans are in the military.

> other races of the Duchy make up the balance. About 30% of the total force are comprised of medium cavalry, and heavy and light cavalry make up an additional 15% each. The Duchy is renown for its cavalry, and it serves the needs of the country quite well.

Well, cavalry is not usefull on mountainous or mostly hilly lands or in the forest. The needs of the Duchy for cavalry?

Besides, what exactly is 'medium cavalry' in Flannaess?

> Another 30% of the total force comprises mixed infantry, who serve to defend cities and fixed positions, or hold ground allowing the cavalry to engage an enemy. Elven infantry tend to prefer the long sword and bow, while human troops tend to be crossbowmen and billmen. The
> halflings and gnomes troops use short swords and hand axes (although halfling troops also carry slings). The final 10% are considered specialists, and include rangers and archers from the Axewood and
> Silverwood, as well as priests, mages, scouts and gnomish sappers. These

Sappers?????

> forces do not include city guardsmen or personal guards of either the leadership or the nobility.
>
> In addition to this, each elven noble house (of which their are quite a few) generally has a household force which may number from 30 to 100 men at arms. These troops are armed by the whim or need of the elven lord or lady to whom they owe allegiance. In addition to this, it is possible

This suggests that:
a) nonelven nobility / leaders don't have armed forces
b) towns don't have their own forces

> for Duke to issue the call for the "Grand Host of Ulek". This includes all of the forces of the elven lords and an additional 25 to 50 civilian men or women from each noble's holding capable of bearing arms holding.
> This force may number up to 5,000 strong.

> The Duchy is loath to spend money on mercenaries to train new troops, and instead recruits veterans from the military to spend
Hiring mercenaries for training? A novel thought.

> one-year rotations in training camps as instructors. This saves the Duchy money as well as promoting trust and morale among the army. And rather than maintaining expensive (and unnecessary) fortresses
> throughout the Duchy, patrols normally billet with local city guards or
Especially considering that the local lords are bound to have their own castles and the villages and towns to have their own protections that they can maintain themselves.

> form camps near smaller towns and villages. The primary training base of the Duchy's forces is known as The Crossroads. This fortified town is centrally located at the intersection of the Sheldomar Pike and the Duke's Road, and the wide open grasslands are excellent for training
> young horsemen and raising steeds to serve in the cavalry. The expansive plains of the eastern Sheldomar Valley also provide excellent opportunities to work on combined tactics and maneuvers, including battlefield magic. Most patrols originate from this base, and at any
> given time nearly half of the strength of the army is located here. When

Now take a look at the map, and place 25 dots (1000/2=500, minimum patrol size is 10, and there are bound to be ~250 soldiers in the towns). If the patrols are smaller, place less dots.

> a particular formation or unit is preparing for a tour of the Pomarj border, they will frequently train in this area prior to deploying to the Principality of Ulek.
>
> Since the Greyhawk Wars, there has been an additional military burden taken up by the Duchy: forwarding a force to assist in patrolling and maintaining the Principality of Ulek's border with the Pomarj. This force is typically about 200 members strong, and is comprised of the
> same percentage makeup as the rest of the army. This force typically rotates every six months and is self-supporting while in Corond's lands, though the Principality is responsible for any additional supplies or medical aid.

Not clear why not hire mercenaries to cover at least part of that burden.
And it sounds likely there would be slightly more gnomes in the force and maybe even dwarves and slightly less so elves.

> The elves of the Silverwood and the demihumans and woodsmen of the Axewood maintain their own patrols within the woodlands, but may request assistance from the army on rare occasions. Since the Greyhawk Wars more effort has

Who is the perceived enemy in there? Keoland? Monster infestations?

> been put forth in recruiting mages and priests to serve in the military, but this has met with limited success. Other than the elven fighter/mages, wizards have little interest in being subject to the whims of some knight on horseback. The predominant faiths within the borders of the
> Duchy don't exactly lend themselves to the war effort either, but this is changing, as a slow and steady influx of immigrants from the Gran March and the Lost Lands have brought their more militaristic clergy
> with them. Such faiths are slowly building a presence especially in and around Waybury.

So the immigrants are mostly settling in and around Waybury? And there are significant amounts of them? Why isn't immigration documented anywhere?

> RELIGION: In keeping with the Duchy's very cosmopolitan and multi-cultural setting, many deities are worshipped here. The Duchy is unique among lands of the Flanaess with respect to the collection of
> Powers venerated by humans. Few and far between are the worshippers of lawful or martial deities, as the Duchy has had a relatively trouble free existence since the end of the Short War. Nature deities such as
> Beory, Ehlonna, Phyton, and Velnius join the brothers Celestian and

Python???

> Fharlanghn among the powers venerated throughout the Duchy. Most of the deities favored by bards also suffer no shortage of worshippers in this fair land, as Lydia, Lirr, Myhriss, Olidammara, and even the elven demigod Ye'Cind have followers in the cities.

[snip]

> The priests within the Duchy are all given respect due their social status as in other lands of the Flanaess, but unlike many other regions, the priests have little political power, and probably don't desire any.
> Political machinations and intrigues generally don't concern the clergy of the aforementioned powers.

That's good. Except that it would mean a lot of pressure by the priesthoods on the nobility to join their ranks, starting already in early youth.

[snip]

Sander

The Duchy of Ulek "source document"

Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 21:32PM PST
From: Taras Cranden-Guarhoth Add To Address Book Add To
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] The Duchy of Ulek "source document"

> plains and forests between Hellfurnaces and the Lortmils. Unlike the Aerdy
> to the north and east, the Keogh tribe mixed with the Suel, and founded the
> kingdom of Keoland, and the descendants of the Uleki were given a large province on the eastern boundary of Keoland to rule. This area was

Eh, don't ask me why, or from where, but I was always under the impression that somehow, the Suel managed to remain in power over the peoples of the Sheldomar.

> Historically, the demihumans of these mountains have fought long and hard to
> drive out the humanoids and monsters, culminating in the Hateful Wars which
> led to the creation of the Pomarj, from whence many red glowing eyes look back to their "birthright" and seek to regain it. The hill dwarves, mountain

Just a note, but the Pomarj was already there...just before the humanoids waltzed in, it was a collection of petty squabbling humans (gee, not much change, other than adding an -oid to the end of the species of the rulers).

> Two ancient woodlands grow within the borders of Ulek, the remnants of the once great forest that spanned the length of the Sheldomar Valley from the Dim Forest hundreds of miles to the north, and the Dreadwood which lies hundreds of miles to the south. The Axewood is a small forest that straddles

Why does it seem like there's an effort to cover just about every bit of plains with forests in the past? Couldn't some of it have been, well, always plains? After all, the much beloved (yeah, right) plains elves had to originate somewhere.

> ruler deems necessary to deal with the issues facing the country. Cabinet members must be selected from the Elven nobility, and their upkeep is provided by their family (national taxes in Ulek are only for keeping up ambassadors and a standing army, all other taxes are set by and paid to
> local nobility). At present the Duke's Cabinet includes The Lord of War,

Errr...wouldn't that leave them espically open to, say, bribery?

> MILITARY: The military of the Duchy is small but effective, and is noted for its many high elven fighter/mages. The most common activity performed by
> the army is patrolling the plains of the Duchy, and at most times some 25% of the total force is out on patrol. At any given time, the size of the army

Personally, I'd have the main duty of the army be patrolling and guarding that mountain border, since, according to the map in the FtA Atlas of the Flanaess, the part of the Lortmils controlled by the humanoids does border on the Duchy of Ulek. IIRC, Celene Pass (linking the Duchy of Ulek with Celene) marks the northern border of the Pomarj's lands.

> promoting trust and morale among the army. And rather than maintaining expensive (and unnecessary) fortresses throughout the Duchy, patrols

In the area where the Duchy's and Pomarj's borders meet, those fortresses may not be so useless.

> Since the Greyhawk Wars, there has been an additional military burden taken
> up by the Duchy: forwarding a force to assist in patrolling and maintaining
> the Principality of Ulek's border with the Pomarj. This force is typically

Err...I think this'll need revision...since they have their own border with the Pomarj, too. Remember, the Pomarj owns the Lortmils south of Celene Pass.

> piece, has a square hole in the center of the coin. The unicorn sigil of an
> old Suel noble house (also evident on the County's coat of arms) is repeated
> around the periphery of the coin five times, and the obverse bears the motto
> "Peace in Strength" in ancient Suel.

Probabily House Rhola or Neheli, since they're the prominent Suel nobles who settled in the Sheldomar Valley.

Whew. That was, umm, long. It's good, but I don't quite agree with everything dealing with the government and such, but, overall, it works. You just might want to do something with those lists...espically that list of trees...it doesn't read very well.

==
Taras Guarhoth, Sage of House Cranden
http://www.bestweb.net/~guarhoth/

Re: Chaotic governments

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Chaotic governments
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:16:25 -0500
From: The Watcher
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Haile and Fair Greetings All,

>Noel "Has a Crush on Queen Yolande" Graham wrote:

My tastes run a bit younger.

>Olvenrealm works. And no, Coronal is not catching on...

Bet y'all think I'm going to change the Pocket Guide, don't you ::smile::?

>I can see three interpretations for the Geographic Alignment map in the
'83 boxed set. 1) The Alignment corresponds to the ruler only. 2) The
Alignment corresponds to the majority of the populace. 3) The Alignment belongs
to the land itself. No ruler or government not of that Alignment will be
successful in that region. The third one is a radical interpretation I had
suggested once hypothetically, but don't prefer. Currently, I'm leaning towards
the first, but I never seem satisfied on this point.

Well, I can see a fourth. That being the perceived alignment of the land. As written, the Catalogue to the Flanaess is a work compiled (presumptively) by one who lives(-ed) there. That being the case, the opinion of the recorder can be questioned. Even if we presume noble and academic motivation, the less information available on a place, the more likely conclusion becomes based upon sparse evidence -- thus increasing the variable for inaccuracy from presumption based on some ancillary data (in this case the accepted behavior of a race).

>Perhaps the distinction can be made that the drow have no laws, but
>only punishments?

Only? No.... You can't have a "punishment" (by definition) without an infraction. But building upon the spirit of your suggestion, perhaps it's closer to say the drow place emphasis on punishment ahead of crime. Which is to say, they determine punishment for "behavior" first, deciding as they desire which "act" and by whom meets that behavior. Deception carries a severe punishment in drow society. Lying to one's mercantile partners, associates, thralls (the list goes on), misleading as natural course -- these things are parcel to life amongst the drow.
But behaving as affronts a superior female, any priestess of Lolth, or a Matron Mother (esp. one's own) is absolutely forbidden.

Whether your act in any form of these cases requires punishment depends upon such things as who you are, whether you're in the graces of someone in authority, you're value (skills, whatever), or whether the simple threat of punishment makes you a useful tool.

Hmm... sadists....

>This intrigues me, because if elves truly chose their leaders like that,
then there is really no reason for the next ruler, or even the last ruler, to
have been of any relation to Yolande whatsoever. Losing the idea of a
hereditary monarchy would make the elven culture stand out more. But since Celene
isn't a republic, a new monarch wouldn't be elected by the people, but would
have to claim the throne with a show of power to fend off rivals. Elves
probably don't lose their monarchs of old age very often, but when they do,
>perhaps their chaotic natures lead to bloody civil wars.

I *did* say it was a simplistic portrayal ::smile::. And I don't recall saying Yolande's clan has been the only one to rule Celene. On the other hand, her clan does have a certain wealth of experience regarding rulership of this particular realm and dealing with these specific neighbors (along with the opportunity for the most wisdom related to the job). Unfortunately, that fact is what's causing her so
much trouble recently.

As well, don't forget succession. While I'm not going to say there's no potential for conflict over rulership, keep in mind that successfully seating one's self upon the throne doesn't gain anything of itself. If you took the crown by slaying your rivals, the peoples of Celene may tend not to like you. Therefor, you have no power to rule (the "office" is not empowered of itself). There's significant
possibility either all beyond your retinue abandon you, your realm collapses, or the people rise up in arms (figuratively as well as literally) to depose you. In the end, it seems more natural that an out-going leader selects or endorses the next one in order. This is what I was attempting to show the human government of Verbobonc mimicking.

As a caveat, I'm not taking the time to explain this in other than a positive light. You are correct that things could get ugly; but because of the way it would have to work to get as high as the monarchial chair, it's not like anyone with one eye won't see it coming from way off.

>I don't know...just because someone is Good doesn't mean that they have
the Wisdom to make good decisions. Besides, I'd rather see an elven
bloodbath once every few centuries...

Precisely why clans end up being known for some specialty amongst all the fields its members pursue. When you have a line that shows a preponderance toward fairness and wisdom of leadership, they tend to be trusted with leadership. But more, just because you're trusted to make good decisions and have a track record of such, doesn't mean you are incapable of massive blunders. Just because one springs from a line of wise beings doesn't make one personally wise.

Remember that situational ethics also means that while history gives you context for comparison, you still judge by the evidence at hand. Experience, knowledge, and the wisdom therefrom are your guides, but the choice is still about someone or thing in the here and now. It's *not* an easy thing to understand the ways of the olvenfolk -- which is not to insult anyone or claim superiority. But rather, if the ways of the olvenfolk were readily quantifiable and de-constructed by humans
(including *us*), they wouldn't have that air of... well, enigma about them. Then they really *would* be no more than old, pointy-eared humans.

Soft Winter and Sweet Flowers,
Watcher

Re: Chaotic governments

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Chaotic governments
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:37:39 PST
From: Scott Casper
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Haile again,

Noel "Has a Crush on Queen Yolande" Graham wrote:
>Try "Olvenrealm" of Celene. I guess "Coronal" (in the stead of
>"Queen") is never going to catch on, huh?

Olvenrealm works. And no, Coronal is not catching on...

>Do keep in mind that the CG ascribed to the olvenrealm is the majority (I
>won't say predominant) alignment of its populace, not necessarily how its
>gvt. is run. But that's a caveat.

I can see three interpretations for the Geographic Alignment map in the '83 boxed set. 1) The Alignment corresponds to the ruler only. 2) The Alignment corresponds to the majority of the populace. 3) The Alignment belongs to the land itself. No ruler or government not of that Alignment will be successful in that region. The third one is a radical interpretation I had suggested once hypothetically, but don't prefer. Currently, I'm leaning towards the first, but I never seem satisfied on this point.

>The fact remains they [the drow] do have a goverment with certain rules
>(laws, if you want) which must be followed else suffer consequence.
>Only, their's is predicated more on getting caught than the doing.

Perhaps the distinction can be made that the drow have no laws, but only punishments?

>Consistency of merit is likely more important than slavishness to
>law. Ok, which is to say, the olvenfolk realize there is no law which
>adequately addresses every situation and each being. There is a basic
>code of civil (*not* as in municipal) behavior, with punishments meeted
>out according to the "crime". One of the best ways to describe this is
>"situational ethics", but most folks seem to want to read those words
>with a negative connotation (usually because it was used against them).

Which is probably the best description of Chaotic Good I've seen yet. Thanks.

>On the whole, those in leadership achieve those positions because
>they showed merit for it -- and gain the respect of "follower", who are
>in turn more willing to follow the individual's lead.... Yolande and her
>kin have held the Coronal role because they proved most worthy to direct
>the interests of the olvenfolk with other realms, showed the capacity to
>identify with the needs and viewpoints of her peoples, etc.. [snipped]

This intrigues me, because if elves truly chose their leaders like that, then there is really no reason for the next ruler, or even the last ruler, to have been of any relation to Yolande whatsoever. Losing the idea of a hereditary monarchy would make the elven culture stand out more. But since Celene isn't a republic, a new monarch wouldn't be elected by the people, but would have to claim the throne with a show of power to fend off rivals. Elves probably don't lose their monarchs of old age very often, but when they do, perhaps their chaotic natures lead to bloody civil wars.

>To read this, one might be inclined to conceive this "nation" one
>quite easily on the verge of collapse or disbandment from internal foment
>and disagreement. That's certainly a potential, but the practice ends up
>being opposite. What happens is because folks have the capacity to thumb
>their noses at a poor decision or ostracize an inept leader, it becomes
>incumbent for those parties to be worthy of their role. In turn, because
>they display (however) that worthiness, the inhabitants are more willing
>to help their fellows in the way suggested.

I don't know...just because someone is Good doesn't mean that they have the Wisdom to make good decisions. Besides, I'd rather see an elven bloodbath once every few centuries...

Scott "Volstagg" Casper

Celene would make such a nice concentration camp when the Yak-Men take over...

Re: Chaotic governments

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Chaotic governments
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:50:50 -0500
From: The Watcher
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Haile and Fair Greetings All,

Oops. Sorry; I've been clearing out alot of back mail and missed this thread altogether until Keldreth edited my name to the page top.

Scott "Master Yakker" Volstagg writes:
>Now, where does that leave the Chaotic Good "Queendom" (?) of Celene?

Try "Olvenrealm" of Celene. I guess "Coronal" (in the stead of "Queen") is never going to catch on, huh?

>Celene's neutrality during the Greyhawk Wars may be inconsistent with
>what her neighbors wanted, but other than that, Celene does not seem to
>be very
>Chaotic at all. Any suggestions on how to make Celene seem more
>Chaotic? Dare
>I ask you, Watcher?

::Stifled chuckle:: Well gosh, I hardly ever think about Celene. All foolery aside, mostly it's a general problem with perception. I just can't quite figure why folks want to see CG as CHAOTIC(g). The kind of chaos where you sentence a prisoner to death and release him on his merry way is a peculiar (insane) form of CN.

I certainly can't speak for anyone else's view, but I've yet to find a problem with Celene acting out of "alignment" -- particularly since a nation doesn't have one. Do keep in mind that the CG ascribed to the olvenrealm is the majority (I won't say predominant) alignment of its populace, not necessarily how its gvt. is run. But that's a caveat.

Keldreth replies:
>Uh huh, and the CE drow...I have seen ugly flamewars over the vault of the drow.

The fact remains they do have a goverment with certain rules (laws, if you want) which must be followed else suffer consequence. Only, their's is predicated more on getting caught than the doing.

>I think of Lawful vs. Chaotic governments in part (well at least LG vs
>CG) as
>"the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" ordered society,
>feudalism, yada yada. vs. a chaotic govt. that is more of a
>confederation or a real libertarian attitude towards society. [C]all me
>crazy.

Your crazy. But you do have the most basic elements in mind. In the case of Celene, the "leadership" doesn't function to mandate how all elves will floss their (lack of canine) teeth. I don't want to hammer down the specifics of political life in the Olvenrealm here (too many words that'd be better read in the context of next year's Pocket Guide to Celene), but let me see what I can do with a few (me -- a
few -- right) words.

Consistency of merit is likely more important than slavishness to law. Ok, which is to say, the olvenfolk realize there is no law which adequately addresses every situation and each being. There is a basic code of civil (*not* as in municipal) behavior, with punishments meeted out according to the "crime". One of the best ways to describe this is "situational ethics", but most folks seem to want to read those words with a negative connotation (usually because it was used against them).

On the whole, those in leadership achieve those positions because they showed merit for it -- and gain the respect of "follower", who are in turn more willing to follow the individual's lead.... Yolande and her kin have held the Coronal role because they proved most worthy to direct the interests of the olvenfolk with other realms, showed the capacity to identify with the needs and viewpoints of her peoples, etc.. Her words of wisdom (whichever ones those are) are respected (on the whole), so her olvenfolk believe her when she indicates some course is the best, and so
on.

I suppose the best way of explaining it here, is to say that generally the "office" someone holds is not particualarly self-empowered. One does not secure or be assigned the post of coronal, chief constable (truth seeker, formost), or military commander; one becomes or is these things and is so recognized with resources and endorsement and so on. Yes, this is by far a simplistic representation of how it works in Celene, but I'm attempting to impart the basic concept at work. As humans, the "office" exists unto itself where for elves an empty post is nothing but for who fills it.

To read this, one might be inclined to conceive this "nation" one quite easily on the verge of collapse or disbandment from internal foment and disagreement. That's certainly a potential, but the practice ends up being opposite. What happens is because folks have the capacity to thumb their noses at a poor decision or ostracize an inept leader, it becomes incumbent for those parties to be worthy of their role. In turn, because they display (however) that worthiness, the inhabitants are more willing to help their fellows in the way suggested.

Each being (I could get lost saying "elf", but there are other races) brings from within itself the desire to support the homeland and society by what means at their disposal. The poet writes inspiring and lifting phrase, the craftman does his best, the weaponsmith forgest weapon for defense, the learned teach.... All contribute in the way they do and each with a mind for betterment, because without them there is no Celene. It exists not unto itself, but of its members.

Now, admittedly, this seems idyllic in explanation -- and just so. In my estimation, true olven society bears it's human counterpart as a pale shadow. In turn, they have their dissenters: the sylvan who only moderately accept the will of Enstad (but prefer the respect from there over humanfolk), the grugach (amid their number) who accept no rule but their own (but would yet see aid to fellow elves over others), folks who just disagree fundamentally with current practice, and criminal elements (you don't *really* think all the olvenfolk are goodly types, do you?).

Each are dealt according to their nature, not by their "crime". In the US, it's a crime to disagree with the government if that disagreement is one of legal demand. For the olvenfolk, there are codes of behavior based upon respect for fellows and personal honor, but few absolute laws as such. Clan/family affiliation is still important, for instance, to be dishonored in addition to oneself. Still, a dissenter
must (rationally) be given the opportunity to see the "error" of their way before condemnation. It's as possible the argument sways the "official" (not always so formal) gone to talk. Theoretically, this could change the way Celene deals with similar issues, not as a matter of law, but from a new wealth of experience. The clan could be wrong (ie., just because the majority believes/agrees doesn't make them correct in so doing).

Similarly, it no crime to (say) walk about naked, as it's hard to offend those who have the option of not looking, are bipedal themselves (sympathetic form issue), etc.. They may think you a fool, esp. if it's snowing around you, but their response is one of not dealing with you over "punishing" you for offending "them". If they don't like you, they don't have to sell to you, buy from you, etc.. But caution, the
olvenfolk are mostly beyond petty displays one might expect from humans under similar condition. As is well pointed out, they have both the years to learn that falicy and the wealth of their elders who've attained such wisdom (when they pay attention).

In final, "chaotic" in this case should be seen as "no interest in law for its own sake" over some non-ownership socialism. The "good" half of that alignment defines itself (gosh, I hope). Folks still buy and own, but of a mind for what they do (let's not cut down the 300-year oak to build a house *just* there). You're there because you want to be. It's easy enough to leave.

Look beyond the surface of what is seen externally. A realm, theoretically on the perpetual verge of collapse, which can be seen to react inconsistently to similar events, and chooses when it cares about issue -- that doesn't seem chaotic enough to y'all?

Soft Winter and Sweet Flowers,
Watcher