Dwarves counterattack, Flan explained, and editorial rebutted

 

Re: More on guns, a little on the Kalevala

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Re: The Guns of GreyHawk

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More on guns, a little on the Kalevala

Priority: normal
Date sent: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:05:24 CST
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: SCOTT CASPER
Organization: Dominican Univ., River Forest, IL
Subject: [GREYTALK] More on guns, a little on the Kalevala
Originally to: greytalk@MIT.EDU
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

>IMO The gun would be used by the short lived races, Orcs are a good
>example of a race that would use GunPowder....Note I still don't use
>Gunpowder in my Greyhawk Campaign...

How about that Terry Harrison, eh? First he gives us a great use for gunpowder, and then he tells us he doesn't use it.

Jeff Mckillop added:
>>But Orcs are unlikely to invent GunPowder, so they will need as way to access it.
>True, and who would be stupid enough to give the secret to them?

I don't know about stupid, but Iuz, the Hierarchs, the Slave Lords, and Turrosh Mak (if you use him) would all benefit from outfitting their humanoid troops with firearms. Yeah, I'm using this idea.

Jonathan Wilson, and I believe some other people too, have suggested that gunpowder should be a secret guarded by dwarves and/or gnomes. Keep in mind that scrying magic keeps secrets like that very hard to protect. Mr. Wilson also pointed out that there would be no reason to develop firearms because there is magic. Fair enough, but then you have to say that swords and armor don't exist either, because you don't need them if you have magic either. Obviously, not everyone is a magic-user (at least not in most people's campaigns) and that other options should exist for the other classes.

Terry Nixon wrote:
>I have read the Kalevala and I use one of the Finnish deities in my
>Greyhawk campaign, and will possibly bring in some more.
>Didn't someone on the list mention that Mordenkainen originates from
>some Finnish source?

Did you really get through the whole thing? I tried it when I just started college, but I only got about halfway. As to Mordenkainen, I suspect that Mr. Gygax was inspired by the names in the Kalevala, but I don't think it was borrowed from any source.

Lastly, I wrote:
>I can just imagine the surprise when a mid-level druid decides to
>defend a castle by using Stone Shape to make the castle walls dodge
>the cannoballs!
And Alan Clark responded:
>Ha! Just imagine the argument you would have on your hands if I was
>running the game and you were trying to sell me on that one...

Would you believe we were playing Toon? Okay, so even I can't defend myself on that one. In campaign play, I wouldn't allow it either. Still, in just a one-shot adventure, it would be pretty funny...

Scott “Volstagg” Casper
old orc: “Looks like them humans are back with another party. Time to break out the gunpowder again...” --great NPCs, Shannon!

Re: On Gunpowder in Greyhawk

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 99 12:50PM PDT
From: Patrice Forno Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail Blocker To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] On Gunpowder in Greyhawk

Hello,

-----Message d'origine-----
Scott Knowles wrote:
>I seem to remember reading somewhere (maybe the '83
>boxed set) that EGG said that gunpowder simply will
>not ignite on Oerth... that nothing chemical will
>EXPLODE. In order to get around the whole gunfire/
>cannon/gunpowder argument, he just said right from the
>get-go, "Hey, this stuff just will not work."
>Can anyone back me up on this?


Here is a text assembled by Roger Moore about Gunpowder in GH :

****************************************************************************
************
"GUNPOWDER IN GREYHAWK" Dragon Magazine Index
Compiled by Roger Moore


========================================================
Here is a clip from the Greyhawk Index I did on Dragon articles. It has all
the major references about gunpowder, pro and con.
========================================================

Dragon issue #30, pages 12+: "From the Sorcerer's Scroll: New Setting
for the Adventure" (Gary Gygax): Details on the GREYHAWK campaign, including
a proposed adventure in which characters go to the modern world from a city
in the Flanaess. This article contains the important rule: "Gunpowder and explosives will not function on the World of Greyhawk." (See also Gygax's comments in the AD&D 1st Edition Campaign.")

Ed Greenwood later greatly expanded this material for the AD&D game in
his article, "Modern Monsters," in issue #57. The publication of further
articles by Ed Greenwood on using primitive firearms in the AD&D game (issue #60, page 24, "Firearms: First guns were not much fun"; issue #70, page 31, "A Second Volley: Taking another shot at firearms, AD&D style") provoked a short negative response from Gygax in issue #66, page 4 ("Out on a Limb: Gary on gunpowder"), in which he stated that such have no place in the game--though, as noted in issues #17 and #71, Gygax himself made allowances for them in his GREYHAWK campaign!

As a result of this disagreement, the different views of Gygax and Greenwood were made official for their respective game worlds. The SPELLJAMMER(R) boxed set (#1049, 1989, by Jeff Grubb), in ****************************************************************************
************

Regards

_________________________________________________
Patrice Forno - Marseille - France
froon@pacwan.fr
Liste de diffusion sur Greyhawk (taerre@netultra.net)

Thin Greyhawk Page : http://perso.pacwan.fr/froon/GH/FrGRey.htm
French WiF Page : http://perso.pacwan.fr/froon/WiF/wif.htm

Re: GREYTALK Digest - 23 Sep 1997 to 24 Sep 1997

Date sent: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:01:03 -0500
Send reply to: Gary and Gail Gygax gygax@genevaonline.com
From: Gary and Gail Gygax gygax@genevaonline.com
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] GREYTALK Digest – 23 Sep 1997 to 24 Sep 1997
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:27:27 -0400
>From: Alan Clark AlanC227@AOL.COM
>Subject: Re: The Oerth According to Gary
>
>>Are you saying then that from your perspective the resemblance between
the
>>Flanaess and North America is purely geographical?
>
>Uh, is it even that? I have a map of the Flanaess here on my wall
>(box-framed and laminated – I recommend the procedure highly). I really
>can’t see any similarity whatsoever to North America. If you squint a
little
>and use some imagination, you can see a distant resemblance to Asia, but
>that’s about it.

To set this aright, I did have Oerik as a western hemisphere continent. Thus it is geographically similar to North America in location in that hemisphere of Oerth.

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>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:48:12 -0500
>From: Christopher Fisher cfisher@MAILBAG.COM
>Subject: Re: Gunpowder in Greyhawk
>
>Gary and Gail Gygax wrote:
>>=20
>>Murlynd (Don Kaye’s PC) was not able to employ his prized .45 calibre
>>Colt revolvers in the campaign until he became a quasi-deital figure
>>controlled by the DM.=A0 That is, only through a mix of magic and
>>”arcane technology” for a DM NPC was gunpowder able to work, and only
>>for that particular individual.
>>=20
>>Otherwise, and also according to the original AD&gl.lD rules, magic and
>>gunpowder don’t mix.=A0 In the base world, be it Oerth or some other of
>>the DM’s invention, the explosive mixtures of this world, from
>>gunpowder to nitroglycerine, and all the rest, are indeed inert
>>substances.=A0
>>=20

>>I must add that in my campaign the PCs could indeed gain and use
>>certain high-techj weapons by visiting a place accessed through a
>>portal.=A0 These were essentially laser-type weapons that had no more
>>than 20 shots before their energy was depleted.=A0 These did relatively
>>low damage (5d4) and were in effect wands for fighters ;)
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------=
>-----
>>Gary Gygax
>
>Just one question though, Gary: Like most folks on the list, I’m aware
>that in AD&----D (and evidently your original GH campaign) gunpowder was
>treated as an inert substance. However, in the GH supplement to D&end-D,
You
>do list on page 14, along with ranges for various kinds of bows, the
>ranges as well for the Arquebus. Is that simply because it was already
>listed in the man-to-man rules for Chainmail (pg. 27 and in the tables
>on pg. 41), or did you wish the option of limited gunpowder weaponry would
>have some sort of guideline with which to go by?

Getting me on this list too, eh, Chris you devil?! ;)

Arneson insisted on having gunpowder use in his campaign (just as he allowed fighters to use wands, so as noted, I tossed that in from the CHAINMAIL rules—along with all the rest.

NEXT

>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:26:48 -0500
>From: Christopher Fisher cfisher@MAILBAG.COM
>Subject: Re: The Oerth According to Gary
>
>Alan Clark wrote:
>> >Are you saying then that from your perspective the resemblance between
the
>>>Flanaess and North America is purely geographical?
>>
>>Uh, is it even that? I have a map of the Flanaess here on my wall
>>(box-framed and laminated – I recommend the procedure highly). I really
>>can’t see any similarity whatsoever to North America. If you squint a
little
>>and use some imagination, you can see a distant resemblance to Asia, but
>>that’s about it.
>>

>
>Alan,
>
>Bear in mind that the Flanaess as presented in WG was supposed to have
>been _quite_ different Gary’s actual campaign Flanaess, due to the
>fact that he did not want the “surprises” of his world spoiled for his
>players by having them able to see it all spelled out in the WG set.
>
>(Did I get that right, Gary?)

Yes, in essence. The Flanaess in my campaign was more like NA at first, with higher western mountains and a vast island and Neanderthaloids beyond that. I scrapped it after about a year of play, though, and went with a continent closer in form to that on the maps printed for commercial sale.

NEXT

>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:58:46-0400
>From: Ronald Melvin Gaw ronmlgaw@ENGIN.UMICH.EDU
>Subject: Re: Old PCs Adventures and Arms Control

>snip

>Um, in a nutshell, YES. Much of the ‘feel Greyhawk originated from
>the adventures in the “old days”. This is too broad, however, as I know
>you played for many years with many characters. I’m more interested in
>hearing other “highlight” adventures of some of the famous persona. For
>example, perhaps a particularly revealing adventure into the Great Kingdom
>which uncovers (or perhaps buries) mysteries there. Another example would
>be any adventures into the Scarlet Brotherhood’s territory where some of
>that background is uncovered, albeit (hopefully) not too much to give
>everything away.

Well, this is a quandary. I played mainly in wilderness areas, and up around the various nomad states after leaving the shores of the Nyr Dyv behind. Mordenkainen and company were involved more with raiding raiders and building an army, then a petty kingdom than with messing around with big, organized states. The players in the campaign were generally involved in the City of Greyhawk, the dungeon nearby, and in side adventures through being gated elsewhere or geased off (usually eastwards, BTW). The activity around Hommlet, Stoink,

And the ToEE has been pretty well covered.

So, again, what would you suggest?

Ciao!