Re: Incabulos

Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:40:16 EST
From: ">Rip Van Wormer>"
Subject: Re: Incabulos

In a message dated 10/30/99 9:46:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, aleph@CCWF.CC.UTEXAS.EDU writes:

> So how have you guys brought the worshippers of Incabulos into play in your campaigns? Who worships him, and why? What sort of goals have you given them?

Incabulos is the best god of evil the campaign has. Tharizdun is asleep, Nerull is too death and night oriented, and Iuz and Erythnul are just punks.
Incabulos is all-encompassing, the lord of nightmares, delirium, and the hordes of Hades, the patron of the witches who hex your crops and the ninety plagues of the gods. He's the only god who has "evil" as a major part of his portfolio. He commands maggots and corruption. He is tied to no specific
pantheon.

Incabulos is said to be the child of Beory; he ripped his way out of his mother's womb and proceded to inflict havoc on her surface. As the patron of UnBalance, he was responsible for overpopulation, plagues which endangered whole species, sickly forests that burnt to ash at their first encounter of a
spark, still ponds breeding monstrosities, endless famines and all manner of other maladies and travesties of the circle of Life. His younger sibling Obad-hai, patron of Nature's Balance, was created to set things aright, and the two have been bitter enemies ever since.

According to traditional Oeridian theology, Incabulos is the Ill Wind, bearer of all accursed plagues and manifestations. Working with the Court of Chaos, he slew the Oerid's oerth goddess Oeridia while she was still pregnant with the brothers Celestian and Fharlanghn.

The Suel churches reckon him as far older, one of the bizarre entities to crawl out of the primordial void before Time. As such, he is as old or older than Lendor himself. Even the power-hungry Suel dared not establish major temples to this foul menace.

Incabulos wears a black, horribly ragged cloak trimmed in green and lined with orange which blows about in the absence of wind, as does his hair. His face is a pallid, sickly blue covered in pockmarks and tumors that end in random horns and tendrils. His eye sockets are completely black with tiny
sparks like maddened stars. His hands are long and skeletal and his body is twisted and deformed, almost doubled over, with peeling scales, plaguemarks and running sores that resemble extra mouths and eyes.

Incabulos is supposed to have created the hordlings; nightmarish creatures with bizarre, surrealistic shapes infesting his plane of Hades.
As patron of night hags (nachtmares), he is the consort of the hag goddess Cegilune. Cegilune has Flannish features covered with cancerous, craterlike tumors and is associated with the darkest phase of the moon Luna. The two lovers look much alike.

His unholy symbol is one of the coolest of them all.

Everyone burns candles to ward him off, but he's worshipped by the depraved survivors and bringers of plagues, by those who haven't slept in years and those who sleep twenty hours a day. He's worshipped by those so consumed with hatred they would sacrifice anything for power. He's both served and
hated by hags and disease-carrying undead, and half-real things spawned from unwholesome dreams.

His devotees work alone, or occasionally and untrustingly with Nerulliacs or other depraved maniacs they feel will cause more harm than good. They seek to undo the work of priests of good with their heal disease and cure light wounds. They seek to throw corpses in the town well and make the women
barren. They destroy healing relics and undermine the good religions and heroic rulers.

Incabulos hates all of creation and constantly works against it. His realm in the outer planes might have looked like the cold void or gray dust he seeks to make of the worlds, but that's too easy. Instead, it's a place of constant corruption, festering

Magical items associated with Incabulos look like horns, drums, banners and other objects meant to signal allies, which in this case can be anything from enormous creatures of the netherworld to winds of invisible plague.

Re: Listonyms

Date: Thu, 05 Aug 99 12:07PM PDT
From: yehoota@ATT.NET Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail Blocker List
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Listonyms

>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 03:53:21 -0400
>From: "d.k. tetreault"
>Subject: Listonyms
>>>On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Gary R Welsh wrote:
>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Scott Casper wrote:
>>>> > >* Tetreultian is an adjective designating an attitude of historical scepticism, with shadings of both amusement and disdain.
>> >
>> > While Denis is probably honored to have an adjective in his honor, isn't it missing an "a?"
>>
>> Whoops. My mistake. I've never been good with those French names. Sorry Denis (I note the one "n") -- the adjective should be spelled "tetreaultian."
>
>Haahahaaa!!!! I feel positively Iquanderian*
>
>*Note: "Iquanderian" is defined here as feeling "honored, in an ambiguously dubious sort of way" ;-)
>
>Other listonyms...
>
>Gygaxian - to speak in excessively flowery prose, in print and in everyday
> life (this was almost certainly the FIRST listonym ever)
>Weissian - to be heretical, not for a cause but for the sake of being heretical
>Screedian - to be insultingly antagonistic just because your a miserable bastard and like to set off flamewars
>Holianian - to be quietly bemused and non-reactive at the folies and
> bickering of others
>
>I had a few others, even better, but in fit of nobility deleted them, because I'm sure some people wouldn't take it well. Russ, Nathanael and
>Keldreth can thank me later. ;-)

AND
>
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:59:42 -0400
>From: Samuel Weiss
>Subject: Re: Listonyms
>
>Your forgot:
>
>Maldinian - to reject perfectly good ideas like canals and hobloggers out of
>fear of their uniqueness and originality.
>:-P
>
>Samwise of Pelor
>

HEYYY!!! I WANT ONE TOO!!!!

Lesseee....

Loonarian: To go off on wingnut tangents and whiny rants with no sense of reason whatsoever, except to alleviate a quivering palm...

If you want something done, you have to do it yourself!

Anthony "Looney" Toohey
Theryn of Nowhere

Ah, the good old days, when men were men, and gods had hit points!

Re: Humanoids in Greyhawk

Date sent: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:24:10 +1000
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: “Valerian J. Vortex”
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Humanoids in Greyhawk
Originally to: Keith Horsfield
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Keith Horsfield wrote:

> I knew this was gonna resurface ;-) FWIW, I'm attempting to do
> two things here 1) Determine whether humanoids existed in the Flanaess
> east of the barrier mountains (Yatils/Barrier
> Peaks/Crystalmists/Hellfurnaces) and 2) Determine where the oerdians
> originally came from in accordance with published material (I.e. the
> migration maps and the relevant passages stating that humanoids drove
> the oeridians northward and eastward).
>
> As to #1 I'm leaning to the side that humanoids migrated along with
> the oerdians and suel.

I agree, but the term “humanoids” covers a lot of ground. The humanoid mercenaries used in the Bak-Suel wars were mostly Euroz IMC, so they migrated eastward. Other humanoids...well, this might take a while...

IMC, there are three basic races of humanoids: Euroz, Kell and Jebline. Kobolds (Celbit) are a small, cunning subspecies of Gnoll (Kell). Goblins (Jebline) are “fairies gone bad”, who usually harass humans by creating inconveniences – laming horses, stealing stuff, ruining crops – rather than risking open combat. Hojebline (hobgoblins) are bigger offshoots of the previous who lack the ability to create annoying cantrips. Hobgoblins are more inclined enter combat. As for Euroz, well an orc is an orc is an orc...

Anyway...

In prehistory, Olves, Dwur, and Kell fought over the Flanaess. The Flannae arrived later, after a particularly nasty period in the war, and were able to create a niche for themselves and defend it against all comers. This golden age of the Flanic culture is best remembered in the legends of Vecna, the Isle of Woe and the Ur Flanae, although most of the Flanae had access to only primitive technology. At the same time, the Suloise Empire was reaching its peak, and a number of Dwur, Kell and Olve kingdoms covered the Flanaess, existing at a late bronze age stage of development (with the Kell slightly behind).

The Kell in particular were hardest pressed by the human newcomers, and olven and dwur assistance (seeing the chance to cripple one of their ancestral foes) allowed the Flanae to virtually erase any traces of the Kell civilization. The ferocity of the Flanae surprised the Elves and Dwarves, and after the sacking of the Great Library of the Kell at Gvang-Oekugh, the allied policy successfully changed its emphasis to limited contact with the humans and to disrupt the cohesiveness and development of the “fast-breeding” Flanae.

It was against this backdro that the Oeridians arrived, with the Suloise and Euroz following shortly after: scattered outposts of (usually) backwards Flan with a wide variety of cultural identities (eg. Geoff -v- Tenh -v- Perrenland -v- the Rovers; see also “The Languages of Greyhawk” and occasional contacts with other demihumans suggesting well-established but hidden, Dwur and Olven governments. By this stage, the Kell had descended into the savagery by which they are known today. (Jebline had always existed in the same way that the dragons or the lizard men existed there, but not in numbers sufficient to form any social structure of notes.)

The newcomers arrived in such numbers and with such racial cohesiveness that the Dwuf and Olves could do little to prevent their overrunning the plains and grasslands of the Flanaess. After a few centuries, the demihumans began to appreciate that humans were generally more open to cooperation than the Euroz were, and negotiations formally recognised established understandings. Such negotiations have resulted in the recognition of the borders of Celene, the Spindrift Isles and the Highfolk (other demihuman kingdoms, such as the Olven realm of Gaolin in the Dreadwood, are generally not recognized by the more powerful human governments who claim their territories), or recognition of demihuman citizenship and participation in government (eg. Verbobonc or the Ulek states).

Well that's about it off the top of my head, if people want more details I'll have to cart my folder in from home.

Ken Barns
ex-Medical Student and Connoisseur of Life.

Campaign Help (sort of long)

Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 08:13AM PST
From: Peter Ouimette Add To Address Book Add To Junk
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] Campaign Help (sort of long)

Just mulling something over while coming to work this morning, concerning a bandit leader in _Iuz the Evil_.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Here's the situation IMC:

(And thanks in advance for the help)

Just across the Veng River from Furyondy, in the Horned Lands, is a powerful bandit-held castle whose walls drip smoking acid. Belvor decided that this will make an ideal firebase and first line of defense. He has promised that anyone who leads the force that captures it will be made a marquis! (FYI: Originally, the marquis was an officer whose duty was to guard the marches of a kingdom. A marquis is a noble of a rank next below that of duke!) Also, the castle is also crammed with the results of 20 years of looting and pillaging.

There's just a few little problems:

The castle is defended by 40 chaotic evil fighters of 6th-11th level,a pair of 9th level mages, and a 10th level priest of Erythnul. The main obstacle, however, is that the leader of this bandit gang has a sword that can grant a Limited Wish once a week. She's probably had the sword for a few years (?).

Does anyone have any suggestions of what to list as the result of her productive Limited wishes?

Listed below is what is given in the hook from ItE, as well as what I've come up with so far. At the very end of the list are guidelines for the Limited Wish from High level Campaigns:

~+3 bonus on her next 5 saving throws (result of several spells)
~Automatically hit an opponent when she says a command word (3 times)
~A Seven Eyes spell that has been made Persistent (from Spells and Magic)
~ A Contingent Stoneskin spell
~Several Permanant Illusions, Fire Traps, and Sepia Snake Sigils spread throughout the fortress.
~ Working with the 2 mages to use Polymorph Other and Charm spells.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Limited Wish
This spell functions as a wish spell in most respects, but it cannot produce wealth or magical items. A limited wish can mimic the function of most other spells of 7th level or less. If used to alter reality, the changes must be minor. For example, a single creature automatically hits on its next attack, all opponents currently attacking the caster's party suffer a -2 attack penalty for the duration of the encounter, a single creature regains 20-50% of lost hit points, or a single creature fails its next saving throw are all possible uses for the spell. Major changes in reality persist for a limited duration, such as a single creature regaining all lost hit points for 24 hours, a hostile creature becoming cooperative for an hour, or an alert sentry falling asleep at his post.

Re: Hobgoblins of the Flanaess [DMD]

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Hobgoblins of the Flanaess [DMD]
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:58:58 EDT
From: ">Rip Van Wormer>"
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

In a message dated 6/15/99 12:20:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scvolstagg@FOXVALLEY.NET writes:

> Yes, at last, a new addition to my demi-humans of the Flanaess posts of old (anyone remember them?). Skimming through the Scarlet Brotherhood accessory was inspirational, as you shall shortly see...
>

Why are they Blu-Jebli instead of Ho-Jebli?

This is interesting (the DMD as a whole) and perfectly reasonable, but I would look to a different place for the origin of hobgoblins. If we look at their illustration in the Monster Manual we see them dressed in armor that looks very Japanese. They're also (along with the ogre) on the encounter charts of Oriental Adventures. Thus, I propose that the hobgoblin, like the ogre mage, comes from deep central Oerik.

The question of their role in western society arises.

They are, imo, servants of the oni; the calvary and non-commisioned officers in their armies. Their primary purpose was to control the wild and insolent bakemono troops. They are red-skinned, like many of their oni masters, and the dominant males have noses as blue as any ogre mage's. The oni themselves were loosely ruled by various feuding and scheming devil lords.

Late in their great wars with the Suloise, the Baklunish realized that the orcish troops their enemies had recruited and, in their words, "bred from darkness" were proving too great an advantage and in desperation they turned to the oni kingdoms that existed on the borders between Baklunish and Celestial lands. In exchange for weapons and magic of Baklunish make, the oni provided legions of bakemono, goblin spiders, hob-goblins, ogres and ogre magi to fill out the ranks of the golden armies of Baklun. Cut off from their primal origins in the spirit-haunted lands of the west and under the stern guidance of the Baklunish defiler-mages, much of the wildness was bred from the bakemono, stabilizing their assortment of inheritated traits into definite strains. The goblins became shrunken mirrors of their masters, as deferrent to authority as any oni minion. The "norkers" were those bakemono
who had retained the rebellious nature of their ancestors; many of these escaped and were recruited into the orcish armies of the Suloise (thus their name). How the goblins ended up as purely nocturnal creatures is a mystery, but is possibly a means of control instituted by the Baklunish (we hesitatingly identify helmets uncovered on the eastern coast of the Drawmidj as being designed to shelter loyal goblins from the sun), or possibly due to their later experiences with the dark magic of the North.

With the new troops ready, the Baklunish armies could sweep through the passes and into the Suel basin with much greater impunity, creating waves of refugees fleeing to the east. The Suel continued their own strikes, driving Baklunish and Oeridian refugees into the Flanaess as well, where along with the other invaders the native Flan encountered orcs and goblin-kind for the first time. At first still under control of their masters, the orcs rebelled as soon as the Suel ran out of their sorcerous goads and narcotics (something that didn't happen for decades in Urnst, and that never happened in the Tilvanot peninsula). The kin of the oni, for their part, considered their pact with the Baklunish severed when they stopped using their troops for purposes of war, concentrating on survival in the strange land. The Baklunish advance was broken by the clever humanoids, limiting their expansion to the northern reaches. The Suel managed to drive their former slaves into the hills and wildlands, though this weakened them enough to be conquered or absorbed by other peoples in some areas.

The orcs immediately made for the underground lands with their soothing eternal night, competing with the native dwarves who would otherwise have noted the changes in the human lands with complete disinterest. The dwarves, forced by necessity, made alliances with the Oeridians and in some cases retreated to the northern coast of the Azure Sea. The insatiable orcs, bred for quick energy, also terrorized the lands of the olvenfolk and Flan. The elves remembered the orcish ancestors from the days when they dwelled with them in the Suel lands before their civil war, and responded with quick violence, slow retreat, and their own alliances with the Oeridfolk. The Flannae fought as best they could, naming the invaders _Euroz_, or Eyeless (after their affinity to night combat and their one-eyed god).

The ogres and goblins mostly congregated in the Yatils, where they increased their numbers and fraternized with the twisted giants who have been absorbing the dark energies of those mountains for millenia. The fierce northern Flannae tribes named them Jebli and Eiger; the first word an adaptation of their Baklunish name and the second word simply a curse. The clever gnomes managed to survive by playing the Jebli against their historical enemies the kobolds; they are probably the only species that ended up better off after the goblin incursions. The goblin and ogre peoples inevitably spread throughout the Flanaess, occasionally controlling and being controlled by the orcs, humans, and others of varying levels of power.

In a message dated 6/8/99 12:20:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, guarhoth@VEI.NET
writes:

> >He was captured by the orcs and used as breeding stock.
>
> Bleah. I prefer to have him not being held by the orcs. It can easily lead
> to a campaign to help restore the Marquis to his rightful fief.

No, no. He's enjoying it.

Drizzt's mother and Lareth's dragons

Priority: normal
Date sent: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:16:18 CST
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: SCOTT CASPER
Organization: Dominican University., River Forest, IL
Subject: [GREYTALK] Drizzt's mother and Lareth's dragons
Originally to: greytalk@MIT.EDU
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Jeff Mckillop wrote:
>Just thought I'd say that I am a ca. 30 year old who's not
>suspicious of all new Greyhawk products, while I'm not 14, I do
>want to be like Drizzt, my favorite character in fantasy literature.

I don't know much about Drizzt, but I sure think it would be neat to have ultravision.

Also, Mr. Mckillop wrote (referring to "The Mother" worshipped by the Lerara):
>Has anybody created stats for it?

I always assumed that "The Mother" was "borrowed" from Leiber's Fafhrd and Grey Mouser (sp.?) novels. I know Deities&Demigods had stats for a monster called the "Cold Mother" or something like that.

A few days ago, Eric Tomasi wrote:
>Any creature with the intelligence of Dragons (well, some of them)
>would be interested, at least tangentely, in the events in the area
>around them.

I agree that dragons would and should be more involved in the events of the Flanaess, but am at a loss to explain how. Dragons could exert such power on the campaign world (especially if you use 2nd ed. dragons, thank goodness I don't) that human and demi-human actions (and consequently PC actions) would always be overshadowed. Have you devised an alternate timeline that takes dragon intervention into account?

Bailey wrote more recently:
>Hey Chris did you ever catch how an agent of [Lolth] got tied in
>with Zugtmoy and Iuz?

I may not be Chris, but I always assumed that Lareth was merely there to spy on the temple, much like the forces of good were doing in Nulb.

Scott "Volstagg" Casper
Now, how to keep yak-men from overshadowing my players...

Re: JOAN OF ARC - NGC

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] JOAN OF ARC - NGC
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 02:54:59 +1000
From: Philip O'Neill
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

> > Fever: I'll say it again. A fever is not something good. A low-grade fever is not harmful, but once it goes over about 39C you really start to worry -- febrile convulsions are not pretty and they CAN cause brain damage when your cerebral proteins start denaturing. Any child not responding to antipyretics for a fever should be taken to a hospital or doctor ASAP.
>
> I've looked and I can't find anything to either support or disprove this
> (brain damage that is).. I've looked in 2 meurology texts, the Merck
> manual of pediatrics (and adults), Goldblume's text on Pediatrics and
> Harrison's textboon on INternal Medicine..the only thing i can find
> relating febrile seizures to brain damage is if the seizure lasts for >5
> minutes (VERY uncommon), regardless of temperature, the chance of
> developing epilepsy is greater than 5%..however, none of these texts ever
> say that it can or cannont cause brain damage..
>

"Textbook of Medical Physiology (7th Edition)": Guyton (p 859)

"When the body temperature rises beyond a critical temperature, into the range of 106F to 108F [41-42C], the person is likely to develop heat stroke. They symptoms include dizziness, abdominal distress, sometimes delirium and eventually loss of consciousness if the body temperature is not soon decreased. Many of these symptoms probably result from a mild degree of circulatory shock brought on by excessive loss of fluid and electrolytes in the sweat before the onset of symptoms. however, the hyperpyrexia [high fever] itself is also EXCEEDINGLY DAMAGING TO THE BODY TISSUES, ESPECIALLY TO THE BRAIN [emphasis mine], and therefore is undoubtedly responsible for
many of the effects. In fact, EVEN A FEW MINUTES OF VERY HIGH BODY TEMPERATURE CAN SOMETIMES BE FATAL [emphasis mine]..."

Further...

"When the body temperature rises above 106F to 108F, the parenchyma [organ tissue] of many cells begins to be damaged. The pathological findings in a person who DIES [emphasis mine] of hyperpyrexia are local haemorrhages and parenchymatous degeneration of cells throughout the entire body, but especially in the brain."

Add that to the many patients I nursed in the 80s in a brain-injury rehab unit who had suffered varying degrees of brain damage (primarily cognitive) as a result of high fevers, and I am reasonably confident in asserting yet again that a high fever is a dangerous, potentially life-threatening condition.

>
> > Fair enough. Yes, they SET the fractures -- but I doubt they reduced them correctly (meaning realigned the broken ends so that the bone healed
> > straight). For all but the most minor fractures, a reduction is carried out surgically under anaesthetic -- there is simply no other way of getting it right. Without a correct reduction, the bone heals oddly, impairing
> > movement.
>

I'll answer this one bit by bit...

> True again, however, the vast majority of fractures are minor, and can be
> treated with closed reduction (in a cast)..everything from lower leg
> fractures

Nope. A large proportion, probably around 50% (and that's being generous) come under that class -- hardly a "vast majority". Fracture your tibia and you need it plated or it won't heal. There is no way it can heal while weight-bearing, and if you just get slapped in a cast, the fracture site is under constant strain. The only way to avoid this is to screw a plate over the break to immobilise and support it.

>, to hand, wrist, forearm and upper arm fractures can be done in
> a cast.

Uh-uh. Occasionally an orthopaedic surgeon will attempt to reduce a fractured radius or humerus in a closed manner with x-ray visualisation, but these are the exceptions.
A simple Colles fracture can usually be done via closed reduction, as can some minor fractures elsewhere (most often in children as greenstick fractures don't mobilise and don't need much reduction), but the majority of fracture reductions are of the "ORIF", or "Open Reduction, Internal Fixation" type, where an incision is made and plates and screws of various types are inserted.

> Usually on the hingh energy fractures (resulting in an open wound)
> require surgery

Again, no. Compound fractures most certainly DO require surgery, but so do many, many low-energy simple fractures. In the operating theatre where I currently work, I would estimate the number of open reductions exceeds closed by around 5:1. And please note, I AM considering the fact that the patient needs to come to theatre in the first place, thus increasing the chance that they require surgery. A fracture reduction is EXTREMELY painful and is always performed under an anaesthetic of some type: either a regional block (like an epidural except in a limb) or a general -- either way, it's done in theatre. So a good three-quarters of fractures coming thru emergency are routed thru theatre as it is only the undisplaced fractures (minority)
which can be set without reduction.

Any comminuted fracture requires surgery (meaning where the bone breaks into several pieces) and these are exceedingly common in anyone performing any sort of physical labour, or running, or jumping, horse-riding, skiing etc etc. IOW, anyone living a very physically active life suffering a fracture has a very good chance of suffering a comminuted one.

..although fractures around a joint are different..they get
> surgery, not because they won't heal, but because of the greatly increased
> risk of arthritis. Bone healing in misalignment can cause impared
> movement, but depends on which bones...forearm and hand fractures do this,
> as well as fractures around a joing (hip, elbow, etc)..however, upper arm,
> lower leg, etc fractures don't casue any problems in movement (although it
> may very well hurt a considerable bit for a long time...)
>

Don't bet on it (the immobility thing, that is, not the pain). You fracture your tibia and have it set incorrectly, you'll walk with a limp the rest of your life. It is a long, straight bone that is MEANT to be straight. If it isn't, it means your ankle isn't resting correctly which throws off your weight on your foot. In addition to leading to further problems due to abnormal gait, it simply DOES cause movement problems.

> >
> > For first aid, perhaps. Not for long-term recovery -- you're risking causing further damage to the ends of the bone, damaging muscle tissue or blood
> > vessels around the bone (which can lead to a further compication -- not
> > uncommon -- called "compartment syndrome" which results in muscle death and gangrene if untreated) and the release of "fat emboli", especially if long bones like the femur, tibia or humerus are involved, where fragments of
> > marrow are released into the blood stream, acting like a blood clot to lodge in the lungs to kill of portions of lung tissue (pulmonary emboli).
>
> Fat amboli is caused by long bone fractures as a result of the injury, not
> the treatment...we haven't seen a significant reduction in fat emboli in
> the last century, because we can't do anything about it. Compartment
> syndrome is also incited by the initial injury, and a splint
> treatment. Its a swelling of the muscles within a fixed space ( for
> example (for those who don't know) in your lower leg, you have four
> compartments of essentially fixed space in while lie your various muscles,
> blood vessels and nerves) casued by the injury. Often, its the cast
> itself that causes compartment syndrome, and the symptoms can be relieved
> by splitting the cast. I will admit though, that if you got a compartment
> syndrome back then, you were prety much assured of losing your leg (or
> dieing if they didn't get it off in time)
>

Fair enough. I didn't word it very well -- yes, fat emboli are caused by the injury, but emboli can be released by careless manipulation of a fracture: the THROMBUS (an "in-place" embolus) is created by the fracture, but it may not EMBOLISE (be released into the bloodstream) until disturbed.

As far as no significant reductions go, I don't know. I haven't seen or heard any info so I'll take your word for it.

> > >an abnormal gait has never been shown to cause back problems...sore hips yes, but I've never seen a study prove that bad gait casues back pain
> > >*shrug*
> > >
> > Well, I haven't seen a study to demonstrate it, but it's pretty much
> > accepted within the medical / para-medical fields that an altered gait
> > forces the muscles of the back to realign themselves to compensate,
> > resulting in a poorer posture and a lessening of muscular support for the spinal column.
>
> Its not accepted in these parts by any orthopedic surgeon I know...the
> rehab docs are split on the issue, but the physiotherapists and people who
> make orthotics think it is the case.
>

Hmm. I haven't spoken to any orthopods specifically on it -- I'll mention it next time I'm at work and see if I can gauge a response. It was something very strongly pushed when I was working in rehab, however, and as you said, the physios and OTs are convinced.

> > And yet we still grow stronger and taller, run faster, jump higher and reach puberty earlier with each generation. That's why Olympic records keep
> > getting broken.
>
> we've stopped growing taller in the last 20-30 years, and as far as the
> Olympics go, do you really want to get in a discussion of the rampant use
> of anabolic steroids in professional (not to mention amateur and even high
> school) sports these days?
>

Nope! *grin* I think we're far enough off-topic as it is! Okay, I shouldn't have thrown in the Olympics bit, I guess. Growing taller, however...is that right, that we've stopped in the last generation or so? I wasn't aware of that -- I always thought it was still continuing.

I did, however, think of an example after I sent the last post (of good nutrition leading to bigger people): where my wife did her midwifery training in Sydney, there was a large ethnic Chinese population. Most had come from the poorer areas of China, and tended to be very slightly built. When they had babies, however, the foetuses were being nourished with nutrients gained from a more substantial diet, and as such, these women had an astonishingly high rate of Caesarean sections due to cranio-pelvic disproportion, where the baby's head simply won't fit thru the woman's
pelvis. They were just damn big babies in comparison to the mothers!

In addition (and this is purely anecdotal, so take it with a grain of salt if you wish! *grin*), most of the Australian-born Chinese we lived and worked with didn't share their parents' slight stature; they tended to be as tall and muscular as any Caucasian in Australia. I can't think of anything to attribute this to except that they had a more substantial diet from infancy than their parents did.

> > Granted, but most people are AWARE that it is a good practice to wash one's hands before preparing food etc. I'm not saying it is 100% fool-proof, just that the awareness makes a difference, as we are still more likely to do it than someone who has absolutely no idea that it makes any difference.
>
> Awareness doesn't stop disease, only doing what you are supposed to
> does..bet we could do a quick survey on this list..how many people know
> taht smoking is bad for ya..now how many of you smoke anyway? I think
> you'd have a hard time finding anyone whio doesn't know smoking casues
> cancer, lung and heart problems, low birth weight babies, etc, etc,
> however, as many people smoke now (as a percentage of teh population) as
> they did 20 years ago..with the exception of women..more of them are
> smoking now than ever before (lung cancer just passed breast cancer as the
> #1 cause of death in women...congrats *shrug*)
>

Yeah, fair enough. It's at least a first step, I guess, however. Without the awareness, there's NO chance of the action.



*big sigh*

The interesting thing here is, of course, the fact that we pretty much DO agree on most of the broader details. Still, I like a good debate as much as the next man *grin*

What say we call it quits after your reply to this? I feel like we're being glowered at by the rest of the list! *self-consciously pulling on my asbestos jammies*

Phil O'Neill
"May I find you with peace, and leave you with hope..."

http://members.xoom.com/aldaron/2300.htm