Date sent: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:09:17 -0700
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
From: Jason Verbitsky JV@BC.SYMPATICO.CA
Subject: [GREYTALK] Zuggtmoy Free! (Was Re: Greyhawk Trivia questions)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Joseph Barrios wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-09-10 08:19:09 EDT, you write:
>
> << From reading the atlas of From the Ashes, it appears to have been [year missing]
> CY, one year before Iuz was released from his imprisonment in Castle
> Greyhawk.
> Eric >>
>
> I do not believe this is correct. 569 CY was the year when the Battle of
> Emridy Meadows occurred…the year in which Zuggtmoy was imprisoned. The
> Prince of Veluna wasn't kidnapped until 573….and the Temple of Elemental
> Evil module has the PC's finding him in the Temple disguised as a dead
> vampire.
>
> For anyone who is tuning in just now, the question is: in what year was the
> Temple sacked and the demonness Zuggtmoy freed? (In other words, what year
> was the TOEE module set in?) I'm starting a Greyhawk campaign and want
> the module in the proper year.
The Mother of all Mushrooms was most probably freed c. CY 579-580 by Rob and/or Iggwilv. As Zuggtmoy had to be free to attack Anthraxus in the Hall of Dread in Molag in Artifact of Evil (p.234) and Iggwilv takes credit for freeing her (p.330) when these two 'lovely' ladies show up to see Iuz.
The tireless researches of the good Savant Iquander, based on the internal evidence in Gygax's Gord novels, has dated what I call the 'Catastrophe Krebalsthorp' where Nerull et. Al were 'banished' to Reaping CY 580, and the siege/fall of the Molag to Goodmonth (Summer) CY 580. As ol' Zugs assault upon Anthraxus occurred in between these two events it would be late Reaping 580. So as for her freedom, late 579 at the very earliest and mid 580 (summer Reaping) at the latest seem reasonable dates. At least that is what I'm going with (for now).
Again, though, as I asked in my previous message (“Zuggtmoy's Freedom: Robilar, Iggwilv, or Both? (Date?)”) :
Was it Robilar or Iggwilv (AoE 330) that was responsible for freeing Zuggtmoy from the Temple of Elemental Evil? Or were they somehow involved? What is the real story here? And what was the exact date of this historic event? Robilar? EGG? Anyone?
Which version is correct? Or are they both? Is Iggwilv taking credit for Robilar's work? Did Robilar throw the pillar at Iggwilv? What really happened? And when?
I'd like to know how this all came about. Did Iggwilv somehow manipulate (perhaps provoke would be a better word?) Robilar into throwing the pillar at the doors? Maybe the old projected image trick combined with a bit of suggestive taunting?
I've appended the relevant quotes to this message after my sig.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
His Dread and Awful Presence,
Jason Verbitsky
JV@bc.sympatico.ca
http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/JV/INDEX.HTM
The Robilar Side (taken from the Greyhawk Grimoire: Sage.txt):
<< On page 29, of the Temple of Elemental Evil (T1-4), middle of page, [number missing], there is mentioned a “sharp check dealt Lolth”. Since the Temple Series adventure is before the Giants, and Queen of Spiders, series – what sharp check is this? >>
#012 ANSWERS
...
Gary Gygax: Robilar inadvertantly freed Zuggtmoy by using his girdle of storm giant strength to toss a piller through the doors of her prison. She, in delight carried him off to the Abyss so he could be one her most trusted servants. Robilar blanched at this, and managed to get back to the PMP. That took some time, though, and when he got back to the temple area he found his faithful orc “hero” Quij, warm and snug, having made a poncho of Robilar's flying carpet. You got it right, though. When Zugg'y showed up again down there, Lolth's plans for greater grandure were generally squelched.
The Iggwilv Side (Gary Gygax's Artifact of Evil page 330):
Iggwilv, speaking to her son Iuz, says:
“You are wanting information. Well then, attend Me. It was a near thing, for those soft nd stupid ones who ooppose the true order of things came in their multitudes. Despite their mewling attempts, I found and freed Dear Lady Zuggtmoy.”
Showing posts with label Original Greyhawk campaign. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Original Greyhawk campaign. Show all posts
Saturday, February 14, 2009
Wednesday, December 10, 2008
Greyhawk Ruins (long)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:41:46 -0500
From: Joseph Bloch Josephus@CYBERNEX.NET
Subject: Greyhawk Ruins (long)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Here is the text of a letter I received from Blake Mobley and Timothy Brown (designers of the Greyhawk Ruins module) dated September 1990. I thought everyone on the list might find it interesting it adds a few details and touches on some of the topics we've been discussing here lately. It is an answer to a series of questions concerning the module I had asked (I don't think it's necessary to reprint my letter,
you can figure out what the questions were from their answers). Enjoy!
Greyhawk Ruins was designed at the request of Jim Ward who was one of the original players in Gary's "original" Greyhawk Castle module. Thus, it has been designed to match this original concept as close as
was feasible. The module "Castle Greyhawk" was a satire done on Gary's original castle and is not intended to be taken seriously (unlike the Ruins). In fact, many of us at TSR consider it to be more of a comic module (one to be read for laughs, but not to play in). Some of the elements you mention that we left out, were intentionally left out as they had no place in the original dungeon, but were added by other people or mentioned in conjunction with Greyhawk Castle just because it was a well known castle that had not been detailed. As you probably know, the original Castle Greyhawk was reported to have over 200 levels in it. It was also constantly changing due to cave-ins and magical factors. Therefore, some of the items you mention have changed location, are not now discernable, or have been sealed off in a section of the dungeon which we did not detail.
The golden man (who was originally a wandering monster illusion in Gary's campaign) was not placed specifically in the dungeon, we decided that the illusion had ceased to exist at this point. If you wish to keep it, have the diamond golem in Z402 control it. Do remember, that we are detailing the dungeon several hundred years after most of these details you are speaking of originally existed. If I remember correctly, the Great Enigma was a giant 3D head which would turn those who messed with it into warts upon its face. I do know that in Gary's castle, it was on an extremely deep level, and we decided not to include it. However, if you wish to use it, I would place it in room P715 and incorporate it into the gargoyle chair there. Of course the real enigma or puzzle about Greyhawk Ruins is that the obelisk at P813 is not the great secret, but rather the Stone in P715. Finally, the great Central Shaft has now been disrupted. It was once a great shaft which connected all of the open spiral stairways running from P300 to P800 together. However, this shaft is now fragmented and will not be apparent to anyone.
In Isle of the Ape, Tenser speaks of descending the shaft and finding natural caverns, then entering a tunnel which led to the isle. Once P800 was nothing but caverns, however, now it has been partially worked into smooth areas. In any event, the tunnel to the Isle of the Ape was once the hallway at P826. because that module is no longer in stock at TSR, we couldn’t refer to it directly. During play in the ruins, we decided that the tunnel was closed ad thus acted like a time tunnel. We had similar restrictions concerning Beyond the Magic Mirror and Dungeonland. However, we kept these portals open. The entrance to Beyond the Magic Mirror is at Z632. The entrance to Dungeonland is at P833. Of course the entrance to Zagig’s demi-plane (as well as the other ring of five members) is also on this level at P834. Finally, entrance to a realm of horror was once on this level (we have now made it Ravenloft), but it is at P824. Your reference to the Gord the Rogue books has me puzzled. I do not recall any mention of Greyhawk Castle other than the castle in Greyhawk City. However, I will take your word for it and must admit that we overlooked this tie-in.
You are correct about Z405 [that it was the place where the 9 demigods were captured]. Furthermore, note the elements of P900 for more information about the capturing process. As far as the rest of the nine trapped gods goes, that information has been strictly guarded so that we may use it in the future as need arises. Graz’zt has since escaped, and thus we didn’t put him in the castle. However, the relief face he was kept in was originally at P207 as a cruel joke and form of torture by Zagig (trapping a demon in a clown’s face is rather severe). The statue of Boccob at P209 was assigned to guard him. His evilness still influences much of the magic of this level (as you will note by reading it). However, we did not refer to Graz’zt himself due to TSR’s current policy on Demons.
Well, that’s it! Some interesting tidbits, I thought.
Joe Bloch
From: Joseph Bloch Josephus@CYBERNEX.NET
Subject: Greyhawk Ruins (long)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Here is the text of a letter I received from Blake Mobley and Timothy Brown (designers of the Greyhawk Ruins module) dated September 1990. I thought everyone on the list might find it interesting it adds a few details and touches on some of the topics we've been discussing here lately. It is an answer to a series of questions concerning the module I had asked (I don't think it's necessary to reprint my letter,
you can figure out what the questions were from their answers). Enjoy!
Greyhawk Ruins was designed at the request of Jim Ward who was one of the original players in Gary's "original" Greyhawk Castle module. Thus, it has been designed to match this original concept as close as
was feasible. The module "Castle Greyhawk" was a satire done on Gary's original castle and is not intended to be taken seriously (unlike the Ruins). In fact, many of us at TSR consider it to be more of a comic module (one to be read for laughs, but not to play in). Some of the elements you mention that we left out, were intentionally left out as they had no place in the original dungeon, but were added by other people or mentioned in conjunction with Greyhawk Castle just because it was a well known castle that had not been detailed. As you probably know, the original Castle Greyhawk was reported to have over 200 levels in it. It was also constantly changing due to cave-ins and magical factors. Therefore, some of the items you mention have changed location, are not now discernable, or have been sealed off in a section of the dungeon which we did not detail.
The golden man (who was originally a wandering monster illusion in Gary's campaign) was not placed specifically in the dungeon, we decided that the illusion had ceased to exist at this point. If you wish to keep it, have the diamond golem in Z402 control it. Do remember, that we are detailing the dungeon several hundred years after most of these details you are speaking of originally existed. If I remember correctly, the Great Enigma was a giant 3D head which would turn those who messed with it into warts upon its face. I do know that in Gary's castle, it was on an extremely deep level, and we decided not to include it. However, if you wish to use it, I would place it in room P715 and incorporate it into the gargoyle chair there. Of course the real enigma or puzzle about Greyhawk Ruins is that the obelisk at P813 is not the great secret, but rather the Stone in P715. Finally, the great Central Shaft has now been disrupted. It was once a great shaft which connected all of the open spiral stairways running from P300 to P800 together. However, this shaft is now fragmented and will not be apparent to anyone.
In Isle of the Ape, Tenser speaks of descending the shaft and finding natural caverns, then entering a tunnel which led to the isle. Once P800 was nothing but caverns, however, now it has been partially worked into smooth areas. In any event, the tunnel to the Isle of the Ape was once the hallway at P826. because that module is no longer in stock at TSR, we couldn’t refer to it directly. During play in the ruins, we decided that the tunnel was closed ad thus acted like a time tunnel. We had similar restrictions concerning Beyond the Magic Mirror and Dungeonland. However, we kept these portals open. The entrance to Beyond the Magic Mirror is at Z632. The entrance to Dungeonland is at P833. Of course the entrance to Zagig’s demi-plane (as well as the other ring of five members) is also on this level at P834. Finally, entrance to a realm of horror was once on this level (we have now made it Ravenloft), but it is at P824. Your reference to the Gord the Rogue books has me puzzled. I do not recall any mention of Greyhawk Castle other than the castle in Greyhawk City. However, I will take your word for it and must admit that we overlooked this tie-in.
You are correct about Z405 [that it was the place where the 9 demigods were captured]. Furthermore, note the elements of P900 for more information about the capturing process. As far as the rest of the nine trapped gods goes, that information has been strictly guarded so that we may use it in the future as need arises. Graz’zt has since escaped, and thus we didn’t put him in the castle. However, the relief face he was kept in was originally at P207 as a cruel joke and form of torture by Zagig (trapping a demon in a clown’s face is rather severe). The statue of Boccob at P209 was assigned to guard him. His evilness still influences much of the magic of this level (as you will note by reading it). However, we did not refer to Graz’zt himself due to TSR’s current policy on Demons.
Well, that’s it! Some interesting tidbits, I thought.
Joe Bloch
Wednesday, December 3, 2008
Re: GREYTALK Digest - 23 Sep 1997 to 24 Sep 1997
Date sent: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:01:03 -0500
Send reply to: Gary and Gail Gygax gygax@genevaonline.com
From: Gary and Gail Gygax gygax@genevaonline.com
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] GREYTALK Digest – 23 Sep 1997 to 24 Sep 1997
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:27:27 -0400
>From: Alan Clark AlanC227@AOL.COM
>Subject: Re: The Oerth According to Gary
>
>>Are you saying then that from your perspective the resemblance between
the
>>Flanaess and North America is purely geographical?
>
>Uh, is it even that? I have a map of the Flanaess here on my wall
>(box-framed and laminated – I recommend the procedure highly). I really
>can’t see any similarity whatsoever to North America. If you squint a
little
>and use some imagination, you can see a distant resemblance to Asia, but
>that’s about it.
To set this aright, I did have Oerik as a western hemisphere continent. Thus it is geographically similar to North America in location in that hemisphere of Oerth.
NEXT
>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:48:12 -0500
>From: Christopher Fisher cfisher@MAILBAG.COM
>Subject: Re: Gunpowder in Greyhawk
>
>Gary and Gail Gygax wrote:
>>=20
>>Murlynd (Don Kaye’s PC) was not able to employ his prized .45 calibre
>>Colt revolvers in the campaign until he became a quasi-deital figure
>>controlled by the DM.=A0 That is, only through a mix of magic and
>>”arcane technology” for a DM NPC was gunpowder able to work, and only
>>for that particular individual.
>>=20
>>Otherwise, and also according to the original AD&gl.lD rules, magic and
>>gunpowder don’t mix.=A0 In the base world, be it Oerth or some other of
>>the DM’s invention, the explosive mixtures of this world, from
>>gunpowder to nitroglycerine, and all the rest, are indeed inert
>>substances.=A0
>>=20
>>I must add that in my campaign the PCs could indeed gain and use
>>certain high-techj weapons by visiting a place accessed through a
>>portal.=A0 These were essentially laser-type weapons that had no more
>>than 20 shots before their energy was depleted.=A0 These did relatively
>>low damage (5d4) and were in effect wands for fighters ;)
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------=
>-----
>>Gary Gygax
>
>Just one question though, Gary: Like most folks on the list, I’m aware
>that in AD&----D (and evidently your original GH campaign) gunpowder was
>treated as an inert substance. However, in the GH supplement to D&end-D,
You
>do list on page 14, along with ranges for various kinds of bows, the
>ranges as well for the Arquebus. Is that simply because it was already
>listed in the man-to-man rules for Chainmail (pg. 27 and in the tables
>on pg. 41), or did you wish the option of limited gunpowder weaponry would
>have some sort of guideline with which to go by?
Getting me on this list too, eh, Chris you devil?! ;)
Arneson insisted on having gunpowder use in his campaign (just as he allowed fighters to use wands, so as noted, I tossed that in from the CHAINMAIL rules—along with all the rest.
NEXT
>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:26:48 -0500
>From: Christopher Fisher cfisher@MAILBAG.COM
>Subject: Re: The Oerth According to Gary
>
>Alan Clark wrote:
>> >Are you saying then that from your perspective the resemblance between
the
>>>Flanaess and North America is purely geographical?
>>
>>Uh, is it even that? I have a map of the Flanaess here on my wall
>>(box-framed and laminated – I recommend the procedure highly). I really
>>can’t see any similarity whatsoever to North America. If you squint a
little
>>and use some imagination, you can see a distant resemblance to Asia, but
>>that’s about it.
>>
>
>Alan,
>
>Bear in mind that the Flanaess as presented in WG was supposed to have
>been _quite_ different Gary’s actual campaign Flanaess, due to the
>fact that he did not want the “surprises” of his world spoiled for his
>players by having them able to see it all spelled out in the WG set.
>
>(Did I get that right, Gary?)
Yes, in essence. The Flanaess in my campaign was more like NA at first, with higher western mountains and a vast island and Neanderthaloids beyond that. I scrapped it after about a year of play, though, and went with a continent closer in form to that on the maps printed for commercial sale.
NEXT
>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:58:46-0400
>From: Ronald Melvin Gaw ronmlgaw@ENGIN.UMICH.EDU
>Subject: Re: Old PCs Adventures and Arms Control
>snip
>Um, in a nutshell, YES. Much of the ‘feel Greyhawk originated from
>the adventures in the “old days”. This is too broad, however, as I know
>you played for many years with many characters. I’m more interested in
>hearing other “highlight” adventures of some of the famous persona. For
>example, perhaps a particularly revealing adventure into the Great Kingdom
>which uncovers (or perhaps buries) mysteries there. Another example would
>be any adventures into the Scarlet Brotherhood’s territory where some of
>that background is uncovered, albeit (hopefully) not too much to give
>everything away.
Well, this is a quandary. I played mainly in wilderness areas, and up around the various nomad states after leaving the shores of the Nyr Dyv behind. Mordenkainen and company were involved more with raiding raiders and building an army, then a petty kingdom than with messing around with big, organized states. The players in the campaign were generally involved in the City of Greyhawk, the dungeon nearby, and in side adventures through being gated elsewhere or geased off (usually eastwards, BTW). The activity around Hommlet, Stoink,
And the ToEE has been pretty well covered.
So, again, what would you suggest?
Ciao!
Send reply to: Gary and Gail Gygax gygax@genevaonline.com
From: Gary and Gail Gygax gygax@genevaonline.com
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] GREYTALK Digest – 23 Sep 1997 to 24 Sep 1997
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:27:27 -0400
>From: Alan Clark AlanC227@AOL.COM
>Subject: Re: The Oerth According to Gary
>
>>Are you saying then that from your perspective the resemblance between
the
>>Flanaess and North America is purely geographical?
>
>Uh, is it even that? I have a map of the Flanaess here on my wall
>(box-framed and laminated – I recommend the procedure highly). I really
>can’t see any similarity whatsoever to North America. If you squint a
little
>and use some imagination, you can see a distant resemblance to Asia, but
>that’s about it.
To set this aright, I did have Oerik as a western hemisphere continent. Thus it is geographically similar to North America in location in that hemisphere of Oerth.
NEXT
>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:48:12 -0500
>From: Christopher Fisher cfisher@MAILBAG.COM
>Subject: Re: Gunpowder in Greyhawk
>
>Gary and Gail Gygax wrote:
>>=20
>>Murlynd (Don Kaye’s PC) was not able to employ his prized .45 calibre
>>Colt revolvers in the campaign until he became a quasi-deital figure
>>controlled by the DM.=A0 That is, only through a mix of magic and
>>”arcane technology” for a DM NPC was gunpowder able to work, and only
>>for that particular individual.
>>=20
>>Otherwise, and also according to the original AD&gl.lD rules, magic and
>>gunpowder don’t mix.=A0 In the base world, be it Oerth or some other of
>>the DM’s invention, the explosive mixtures of this world, from
>>gunpowder to nitroglycerine, and all the rest, are indeed inert
>>substances.=A0
>>=20
>>I must add that in my campaign the PCs could indeed gain and use
>>certain high-techj weapons by visiting a place accessed through a
>>portal.=A0 These were essentially laser-type weapons that had no more
>>than 20 shots before their energy was depleted.=A0 These did relatively
>>low damage (5d4) and were in effect wands for fighters ;)
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------=
>-----
>>Gary Gygax
>
>Just one question though, Gary: Like most folks on the list, I’m aware
>that in AD&----D (and evidently your original GH campaign) gunpowder was
>treated as an inert substance. However, in the GH supplement to D&end-D,
You
>do list on page 14, along with ranges for various kinds of bows, the
>ranges as well for the Arquebus. Is that simply because it was already
>listed in the man-to-man rules for Chainmail (pg. 27 and in the tables
>on pg. 41), or did you wish the option of limited gunpowder weaponry would
>have some sort of guideline with which to go by?
Getting me on this list too, eh, Chris you devil?! ;)
Arneson insisted on having gunpowder use in his campaign (just as he allowed fighters to use wands, so as noted, I tossed that in from the CHAINMAIL rules—along with all the rest.
NEXT
>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:26:48 -0500
>From: Christopher Fisher cfisher@MAILBAG.COM
>Subject: Re: The Oerth According to Gary
>
>Alan Clark wrote:
>> >Are you saying then that from your perspective the resemblance between
the
>>>Flanaess and North America is purely geographical?
>>
>>Uh, is it even that? I have a map of the Flanaess here on my wall
>>(box-framed and laminated – I recommend the procedure highly). I really
>>can’t see any similarity whatsoever to North America. If you squint a
little
>>and use some imagination, you can see a distant resemblance to Asia, but
>>that’s about it.
>>
>
>Alan,
>
>Bear in mind that the Flanaess as presented in WG was supposed to have
>been _quite_ different Gary’s actual campaign Flanaess, due to the
>fact that he did not want the “surprises” of his world spoiled for his
>players by having them able to see it all spelled out in the WG set.
>
>(Did I get that right, Gary?)
Yes, in essence. The Flanaess in my campaign was more like NA at first, with higher western mountains and a vast island and Neanderthaloids beyond that. I scrapped it after about a year of play, though, and went with a continent closer in form to that on the maps printed for commercial sale.
NEXT
>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:58:46-0400
>From: Ronald Melvin Gaw ronmlgaw@ENGIN.UMICH.EDU
>Subject: Re: Old PCs Adventures and Arms Control
>snip
>Um, in a nutshell, YES. Much of the ‘feel Greyhawk originated from
>the adventures in the “old days”. This is too broad, however, as I know
>you played for many years with many characters. I’m more interested in
>hearing other “highlight” adventures of some of the famous persona. For
>example, perhaps a particularly revealing adventure into the Great Kingdom
>which uncovers (or perhaps buries) mysteries there. Another example would
>be any adventures into the Scarlet Brotherhood’s territory where some of
>that background is uncovered, albeit (hopefully) not too much to give
>everything away.
Well, this is a quandary. I played mainly in wilderness areas, and up around the various nomad states after leaving the shores of the Nyr Dyv behind. Mordenkainen and company were involved more with raiding raiders and building an army, then a petty kingdom than with messing around with big, organized states. The players in the campaign were generally involved in the City of Greyhawk, the dungeon nearby, and in side adventures through being gated elsewhere or geased off (usually eastwards, BTW). The activity around Hommlet, Stoink,
And the ToEE has been pretty well covered.
So, again, what would you suggest?
Ciao!
Friday, October 24, 2008
Re: Greytalk FAQ
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:36:15 +0000
Reply-To: rjkuntz@gci-net.com
From: rjkuntz
Organization: Creations Unlimited
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Greytalk FAQ
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Phil Rhodes wrote:
>
> At 02:50 PM 8/4/97 +0000, rjkuntz wrote:
> >Unanswerable?
> > 4.1 Who were the nine demigods imprisoned by Iuz?
> >***********************************************
> >
> >Jeez, Phil. I answered this already. And Gary would tell you the
> >same thing, of course. What do you need? Signed affadavits by the
> >Nine?
>
> In triplicate, signed in red ink (or preferably, blood), if you please.
>
> ; )
>
> Seriously, I put it in the 'Unanswerable' section because the
> answer you gave 'officially' (which is different from 'real')
> doesn't answer the question. That's because the 9 gods that
> were imprisoned in the original campaign were demigods, but
> later were moved to lesser/intermediate status. Here's the
> relevant section:
>
> “4.1 Who were the nine demigods imprisoned by Iuz?
>
> This, along with the canon question, has caused more debate on Greytalk
> and other forums than any other question. The gods imprisoned in the
> original Greyhawk campaign were revealed by EGG and Rob Kuntz to be
> Obad-Hai, Trithereon, Heironeous, Hextor, Iuz, Olidammara, Celestian,
> Ralishaz, and Erythnul. Note that these are *not* officially demigods; as
> the original campaign grew and the world was published, most ended up
> as lesser or intermediate gods.”
>
> I didn’t forget you had answered the question, but I was recognizing that
> the debate will go on because of differences in you and Gary’s campaign
> and the campaign represented in the 1983 Boxed Set.
This is my last post regarding the 9….
But, especially, referring to your last sentence, Phil, the point is not relevant. The question asks of Greyhawk Castle, _not_ of the Greyhawk Campaign. The Castle did have 9 demi-gods (as named) imprisoned within it. Robilar freed them; Gary moved them to the outdoor. _Then_ with the advent of the WoG boxed set, were they included (by design) as lesser and/or demi (whatever) gods. That story, and its counterparts, existed before the advent of TSR’s D&D rules in printed form, before any “official” printing of anything Greyhawk, and that is wherein the difference lies.
There are no semantics involved here actually, only creative backfilling on EGG’s part (ask him). And I truly consider further speculation on this subject as senseless, really. If one cannot accept what the real designers actually did in their pre-published campaign as their own canon, then there are castles in in the sky! Have a good chase : ) .
Reply-To: rjkuntz@gci-net.com
From: rjkuntz
Organization: Creations Unlimited
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Greytalk FAQ
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Phil Rhodes wrote:
>
> At 02:50 PM 8/4/97 +0000, rjkuntz wrote:
> >Unanswerable?
> > 4.1 Who were the nine demigods imprisoned by Iuz?
> >***********************************************
> >
> >Jeez, Phil. I answered this already. And Gary would tell you the
> >same thing, of course. What do you need? Signed affadavits by the
> >Nine?
>
> In triplicate, signed in red ink (or preferably, blood), if you please.
>
> ; )
>
> Seriously, I put it in the 'Unanswerable' section because the
> answer you gave 'officially' (which is different from 'real')
> doesn't answer the question. That's because the 9 gods that
> were imprisoned in the original campaign were demigods, but
> later were moved to lesser/intermediate status. Here's the
> relevant section:
>
> “4.1 Who were the nine demigods imprisoned by Iuz?
>
> This, along with the canon question, has caused more debate on Greytalk
> and other forums than any other question. The gods imprisoned in the
> original Greyhawk campaign were revealed by EGG and Rob Kuntz to be
> Obad-Hai, Trithereon, Heironeous, Hextor, Iuz, Olidammara, Celestian,
> Ralishaz, and Erythnul. Note that these are *not* officially demigods; as
> the original campaign grew and the world was published, most ended up
> as lesser or intermediate gods.”
>
> I didn’t forget you had answered the question, but I was recognizing that
> the debate will go on because of differences in you and Gary’s campaign
> and the campaign represented in the 1983 Boxed Set.
This is my last post regarding the 9….
But, especially, referring to your last sentence, Phil, the point is not relevant. The question asks of Greyhawk Castle, _not_ of the Greyhawk Campaign. The Castle did have 9 demi-gods (as named) imprisoned within it. Robilar freed them; Gary moved them to the outdoor. _Then_ with the advent of the WoG boxed set, were they included (by design) as lesser and/or demi (whatever) gods. That story, and its counterparts, existed before the advent of TSR’s D&D rules in printed form, before any “official” printing of anything Greyhawk, and that is wherein the difference lies.
There are no semantics involved here actually, only creative backfilling on EGG’s part (ask him). And I truly consider further speculation on this subject as senseless, really. If one cannot accept what the real designers actually did in their pre-published campaign as their own canon, then there are castles in in the sky! Have a good chase : ) .
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