Re: Forensic divination magic [was: Circle of Darkness, now NGC]

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Forensic divination magic [was: Circle of Darkness, now NGC]
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:54:59 -0600
From: John C Wright
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Scott wrote:
> The body is DEAD. Therefore, it is not a living thing. IF the body is Cymria's
> remains, then the spell would confirm that, yes, the dead body of Cymria is right
> there on the floor. IF the body is someone else and NOT Cymria, the spell would
> not locate the body lying on the floor -- thus proving that Cymria, if not still
> alive, had at least not met her end here as it appeared.

My question was never about the body being dead. The way the spell reads (and the point to remember is that it is a low-level divination and therefore not infallible), is that the caster must know for certain what the 'true' body of Cymria is like when they cast the spell.

Example: Martin the Priest of Nunsuch...casts locate object to discover the location of the shroud of balin. All of the information that Martin knows describes the shroud as being of x height and x weight and x dimensions etc. When he casts the spell, locate object will lead him to the object (even if in truth the object is actually pants of gunn or the shirt of tina). The spell cannot differentiate between what it is believed to be looking for and what it is intended to be looking for. If Martin goes one further and has a piece of the shroud there, and casts the spell, even though the shroud is really atablecloth, the spell will indicate its location and not give any reason for the caster to suspect that the object is anything other than what it is thought to be.

So in the example of the body I had stated, the fact that there is a body available and that the priest is trying to locate said body, will lead to the spell revealing that the body does indeed lay right before the caster. Even though the body is not the body of who the caster thinks it is.

Now while locate object would not reveal such information, the fourth level spell divination might very well, so long as the caster went about asking his questions in a logical and consistent manner, and did not automatically assume that the body before them was in fact the body of Cymria.

I hope that makes my view a bit more understandable, but I am glad to have feedback. The point about mid-level divinations is one I had not yet covered for the body, and am glad it was brought up so that I have my answers ready when my group gets to this point. Hmmm....then again they don't have divination as a major sphere to any of their priests...ah well best to cover all the bases beforehand.

John Wright

Re: WG, Iggwilv, FAQ, and Arneson

Date sent: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:10:15 -0700
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List GREYTALK@MITMVA.MIT.EDU
From: Keith Smith KeithASmith@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] WG, Iggwilv, FAQ, and Arneson
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Maybe the reason mage’s can use wands is so that in the thick of battle it’s usually easier to discharge a wand then cast a spell. Plus allowing the mage to cast many more of them then he can memorize. Depending on the charges, of course!

Keith

>From: SCOTT CASPER casper@EMAIL.DOM.EDU
>To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [GREYTALK] WG, Iggwilv, FAQ, and Arneson
>Date: Thursday, September 25, 1997 3:40 PM
>
>I’ve got a few quickies this time.
>
>The Village of Hommlett may never have carried the WG1 label, but it
>certainly deserved to. No other of those early modules gave you such
>a glimpse of everyday life in the campaign world. Of course, we
>didn’t all appreciate it when we were kids. I can recall a certain
>player giving the game a poor review because “there’s nothing but
>farmers in it to kill.”
>
>Paul J. Stromberg has enlightened us to GREYHAWK’s most carefully
>guarded secret, only hinted at in the 1978 printing of Lost Caverns.
>Iggwilv is a CROSS-DRESSER! Now that’s something Forgotten Realms
>doesn’t have yet. Still, was that really worth $142? Hmm…
>
>I don’t care for the FAQ, or at least the biased criticism that
>Gargoyles and Child’s Play receive there. They are fun adventures,
>and maybe some people should try playing them instead of flaming
>them. Anyway, I just feel the FAQ should be more objective.
>
>Gary Gygax wrote that firearms and wands for fighters were added
>to the old Chainmail and Greyhawk supplements because Dave Arneson
>insisted on them. I’d say Arneson was right on the money. I’ve
>always argued for firearms in previous posts, but it also never made
>a lot of sense to me that only magic-users could use most wands.
>Wands are just “magic batteries” that discharge an effect on command;
>it shouldn’t require years of training to do that. Plus, magic-users
>are the least likely to need them, because they can already memorize
>the spells. I can kind of see a game balance reason behind the wand
>restriction, but does anyone have a “logical” reasoning for this?
>
>Scott “Volstagg” Casper
>
>Currently revising the Monster Manual. Got as far as C.

Re: Ron Gaw's paladins and their powers

Date sent: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:21:38 -0400
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Ronald Melvin Gaw
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Ron Gaw's paladins and their powers
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, SCOTT CASPER wrote:

:
:Lastly, I think we should hear a little more from Ronald Gaw about
:his theory of paladins. If paladins are treated as agents of mankind
:instead of agents of the gods, then who grants them their clerical
:spells at higher levels?
:
:Scott “Volstagg” Casper
:Almost never rolls stats high enough to play paladins
:

Well, IMC power of the deities is a direct result of their worshipper's support and belief (helps explain why the evil deities, with few worshippers, are still powerful, since even the 'good' people believe in them). Along similar lines, a Paladin's powers come from his/her belief in LAWFUL GOOD. The linking factor between these (and magic, IMC) is that the powers and benefits one receives is an individual's way of drawing from some mystical essence that attempts to make belief's into reality (well, real fantasy ;). I have named this essence 'Living Magic', you can name it what you will. It requires specialized ways of communicating the beliefs (i.e., magic-users do it one way, clerics another), but Paladins reach this source mostly out of their pure, non-political belief, a type of belief which is so strong it breaks the communications barrier between the 'living magic' in a way the other users don't or can't.

I hope my players heed my warning and stop reading any further. The next portion of this text is going to describe a portion of my version of Greyhawk to be revealed after many adventures.


What the various different user types have not realized in Greyhawk eons is how to fully harnass this 'power of belief'. Paladins do it inadvertantly (they are not trying to make it something greater). Most dieties know it grants them their spheres of power, but even they do not know how to harnass it fully (in most cases, their personal origins on the planet Oerth have somewhat skewed their ability, even as dieties, to believe in something without any doubts whatsoever!). Even the greatest of the old dieties, of which Tharizdun is one, who know of the full strength and possibilies (they 'think' they do, as opposed to completely believing they know it's full extents. Otherwise, there would be no chance of it's power becoming greater than it already has achieved), are not capable of nonchalantly calling its power. It requires their true thoughts, desires and personality to accomplish total belief, and this is both difficult and dangerous for them. It is like admitting there is something greater than themselves, and they are loathe to do this.

It turns out that the greatest of the mages and clerics of Oerth's cloudy past knew of this 'power of belief' at one time. Unable to overcome their own inability to believe, they realized that their only true source of harnassing this power was children. Children could be taught (at least at early ages) to completely and unquestionably believe in something. Although it might have taken years of careful culturing and development, those who controlled these children could accomplish feats no spell or arcane device that ever existed could accomplish. The farthest seeing of these 'harnassing mages' learned that a portion of the power derived from such belief could be trapped inside objects, and thus the most powerful artifacts and relics were created. Unfortunately for the harnassing mages, they could not completely control the children, and the children had an uncanny way of letting their thoughts wander, introducing side effects in these devices.

Although this is the explanation I currently have adapted for my version of Greyhawk, I'd like to clarify here that I do not currently, nor do I intend to in the future, explain this to the players. What I do with it is listen carefully to them during adventures, and if I can determine (subjective, I know, but hey...) when they really believe something is going to happen, is happening or has happened, I alter the story accordingly. It does create some havoc in my campaign development, but it also keeps it very creative. If the players ever figured this out and tried to tell me 'I really, really believe in ....', it might be difficult to explain to them that it doesn't work that way. But if they're good role-players, they might be able to use it in small ways (nothing greater than the powers currently Paladins) if they can demonstrate their character's belief by his/her reactions and actions.

If any of the groups, however, every achieve extremely high levels (20th or higher, not likely in my campaign due to the time required to accomplish this), I might open my Ultimate Campaign ideas bag of tricks and have them discover long-lost lore on Mighty Arch-Mages of the past raising an inordinate number of orphaned children!

That’s all for now,

Hiawa Yugha,
Barbarian Paladin from the Plains of the Paynims

Circle of Darkness (long)

Subject: [GREYTALK] Circle of Darkness (long)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:45:33 -0600
From: John C Wright
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Lisa Stevens wrote:

>IMC, the Circle of Darkness will actually be the balancing half of the
>Circle of Eight. I got to thinking, if you truly believe in neutrality,
>nobody is going to trust you and it will be hard for you to get things
>done.
-snip-
>So when I say that the Circle of Darkness is the balancing half of the
>Circle of Eight, I mean that the eight wizards who make up the Co8 are
>the same wizards who make up the CoD, only in different guises and under
>different names.

I can see this as being somewhat plausible, but in the long-run...when the wizards know that adventurers can and often do screw things up and figure things out, then the entire Co8 and CoD ploys would be totally useless as no one would trust the wizards in any of their guises. If the Co8 is truly behind the CoD (which is very possible) then they would instead prefer to work through intermediaries I would think to limit the possibility of their being revealed as working in conjunction with the forces of evil.

Scott Casper wrote:
>Wouldn't a mid-level spellcaster have been able to cast Locate Object, wh=
>ile
>standing next to the body in question, and "look" for the remains of Cymr=
>ia? =
>
>If the body was a fake, the spell wouldn't register it.

Locate object on the body? The way I understand the spell it doesn't work on living beings, and on objects (which a body is of course) it requires complete familiarity to function properly. So if the wizard is looking at the body...why would they need to locate it...as the spell would reveal the body is directly in front of them still. I would like to hear more on this from others though, as my interpetation is of course only my own. High-level divinations could very well reveal that it is not her body...or could show that it is. As I stated in the notes, Cymria may or may not be dead...it depends of course on how the DM wishes to run it. In most campaigns where the players do not know her, then it would of course be no loss, except to Tenser. In my campaign though, Cymria is a common friend to many in the group and her loss is felt by them and will be investigated thoroughly.

Chris Anderson wrote in response to Lisa Stevens:
>I see where you're going with this, but it strikes me that it's impractical.
>In a world of divinatory magic, et al, I don't think that you could keep a
>secret like that for very long.
>
>Besides, there's nothing wrong with having non-Co8 high-level groups that
>have differing motivations.
>
>IMC, I have the Scarlet Circle (no, it's not related to the Brotherhood),
>the Knights of the Golden Dawn, the Iron Fist, and some other
>(non-flashy-named) groups which coexist with the Co8. All have differing
>goals and purposes.

Secrets can be kept amazing lengths of time depending on how involved the group is in the world at large. The Scarlet Brotherhood for example has been almost completely unknown for centuries, and were only recently 'discovered' as being involved in the world. The CoD could have kept their initial existence secret easily, and only through the mistakes with the Doomgrinder do they stand a chance of being revealed to the world. Of course as they become more enmeshed in the world, then their group will become more noticed of course. As for their secrecy, the Co8 is commonly heard of, but few people actually know who all make up the Co8, at least according to the 'canon' information in the Greyhawk supplements. Secrets are wizards best friends, and for more ideas on secret societies check out the recent Dragon Magazine article on them.

Kent Matthewson wrote:
<<
I find it hard to imagine a situation wherein the Circle would justifiably
work on the side of evil (excluding evil in the name of preventing a greater
evil for example). If I were to define the Circle of Eight's objective, it
would be to restore the balance that has shifted towards evil, which is
still somewhat different from working for "good".
>>

The Co8 are likely some of the most misunderstood groups about. Due to their being filled by some of the biggest wizard names about, everyone assumes they are all good and nice, but a key thing is to note how Tenser looks at them (especially after the Rot8 adventure). In old novels, and sources the Co8 worked for means less than noble, and in the Gord novels if I am not mistaken, it is revealed that Mordenkainen and the Co8 are part of the reason that the Prince of Furyondy was removed. Good grew too powerful in their minds with the union of Veluna and Furyondy, so Mordenkainen helped to arrange that it would not happen. (This of course is being covered in the adventure I am currently working up, which pits the adventurerers as either allies of Tenser, or the Co8 and how they deal with the methods of each group).

Keldreth wrote:
>While I could not imagine the Co8 trying to destablize the future of this, if
>they tried, there are certain mages and others who would have big problems
>with this.

The Co8 will likely involve and work against anything which they do not see as being in the best 'balance' for Oerth. A circle of arch-magi would have a tough time dealing with all of the magical avenues available to a determined high-level opponent. Yes, I have found that to be true.

Chris Anderson wrote:
>We're talking about contacting other planes and powers, clerical divinatory
>magic, magic-user spells, speaking with dead, etc. Have you tried to do
>this in a real game? It's damn hard without pulling out the "deus ex
>machina" excuse as to why their attempts fail.

I have tried to use many of the divinations in various games. And they are not all knowing by far. If used properly, the spells can be useful, but many times they can give little to any information, especially if the target is amply shielded from divinatory magics. (non-detection, mind-shielding, mind blank, etc.) Add in a limited wish or two, for either prevention of scrying, or for those who attempt divinations against the target to say suffer the effects of a feeblemind, and the wizard is quite amply protected.

Few deities offer high-level divinations, and those which do are most likely of a neutral bent (Rao and Delleb being exceptions of course). So before these priesthoods bend their power to using their greatest divinations, either they must be involved in the current problems, or others must come to them with sufficient reason to involve them. Even then, the answers are not guaranteed. As for Speak with Dead, if the dead person knows nothing, or if their soul has been stolen or imprisoned, there is little information they can give. For wizards, divinations often run along with dangerous side-effects. Contact other Plane gives the wizard a significant chance for insanity, and few wizards would risk this chance unless they were directly involved.

Eric VdW wrote in response to Kent Matthewson:
>I see your point, but then what were the Co8 doing before the Greyhawk
>Wars? You're right, I can't see Drawmij (well, maybe Drawmij...he's
>got a very cold description) attacking a group of paladins in order to
>"preserve the balance", but remember that the Co8 work behind the
>scenes to make sure these things happen.
>
>But what are their goals following this middle path? In other words,
>what do we do with these guys?

Check out Warnes Starcoats write-up. If anyone is going to kill some paladins to further the balance...this is the man to do it. He has already gotten into a huge argument with King Lynwerd and he is definitely a cold fish who would not mind sacrificing a few 'noble' souls to see his beliefs carried out. As for what do we do with them? We use the Co8 as a group who believes that due to their innate superiority (they are all powerful wizards, and vastly more intelligent than the common man or ruler...or so they believe), that it is up to them to insure that the world runs smoothly. And if some idiot cambion or some fool paladin tries to throw a monkey-wrench in the works, they turn a bit of that magical might on them and clean out the gears.

Miles wrote:
>The Co8 have seen what happens when people get too powerful. ie - invoked
>devestation and rain of colourless fire, and so have decided that the best
>way to stop this ever happening again is to stop people getting too
>powerful - good or evil.
>
>This could mean that when the PC's are lower or mid level, the Co8 could be
>of great help to them, but when they start getting high level and their
>adventures start having world shattering consequences, the Co8 might start
>sending other adventurers out to get them.

Exactly, the Co8 uses adventurers until they become too problematic, then use newer adventurers to clean out the old.

Well this string went from original questions about the CoD on into deep philosophical questions about the goals and motives of the Co8, but I hope that the points I have tried to cover and the questions I have tried to answer were clear.

John Wright