Showing posts with label Circle of Eight. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Circle of Eight. Show all posts
Thursday, February 19, 2015
Friday, February 6, 2015
Monday, February 2, 2009
forwarded message
Date sent: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:43:21 +0000
Send reply to: rjkuntz@cgi-net.com
From: rjkuntz
Organization: Creations Unlimited
Subject: [GREYTALK] forwarded message
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:
Robilar Remembers? [Was Old Campaign Synopses]
Date:
Thu, 04 Sep 1997 13:56:19 +0000
From:
rjkuntz
Reply-To:
rjkuntz@cgi-net.com
Organization:
Creations Unlimited
To: Gary R Welsh
References:
1
>
> Now, Dek, I'm not against your point of view but I don't see why we can't
> have some variety of product.
How about detailed areas of the Wild Coast? That was a project of mine previous to giving up the ghost with the old TSR regime. Also Stoink is a winner, hands down. Castle Greyhawk has tremendous potential—and this would be reworked from existing data. My castle El Raja Key and its many sub plots—the list is endless for adventure. And note my market plan for other insights.
>
> G.R. Welsh
>
> CY 597 – the scene: an early autumn morning in a Velunan Cathedral. Qu[iet?]
> acolytes, going about their duties, look up in shock as a cry of outrage
> comes from inside the confessional booth:
>
> “You did WHAT?!? You freed Iuz AND Zuggtmoy?!?! BOTH?!?”
> Robilar shrugged. “I didn't say I was proud of it.”
For the first time in his career the acolyte could not give his blessing, for his heart burst on the spot. “Yurh-aghhh, uhhhhh...,” was all that Lord Robilar heard. He stood and walked from the cathedral and proceeded down an alley.
As Robilar walked he thought of the changed times, mostly about his old—no, he meant “earlier,” nope, it was “old”--friends and enemies. It was all so very strange.
Tenser was reported dead. His one time friend and later his staunchest enemy. Strange. And they claimed he had committed the foul deed. Certainly not without a bit of talk and torture first, he thought. Not even in his blackest moods of those days would he have dispatched such a highly regarded foe without first talking to him, bragging and claiming how much more powerful he was, and all that. After all. He was a villain.
Then Mordenkainen: There had been sporadic murmurs from every wizard he’d met and questioned about the Circle of Eight. How it was now Five, or six on sundays when the old circle members made in effigy a scarecrow likeness of Rary, which was thereafter pummeled by those cudgel wielding priests he disliked so much. But word of Mordenkainen was nowhere to be heard. It was as if he’d disappeared into the mist of fairy. Where were you old friend?
Of course Otto remained, helping and guiding him from afar. But even his pudgy old helper seemed to lack the verve of yester-year. These days his dance was more like a shuffle and he squeaked out the accompanying lines to his ditties. Poor Otto. Once so vibrant and alive. How could this be?
And then there were the other odd facts: That Terik was his brother. Well yes, brother in arms, not blood brother. And what about the Rary affair. Oh, he would redress that upon arriving in Greyhawk. And then the other rumors of the many atrocities he’d supposedly committed with that foul snake of a wizard, Rary. It was as if the Gods had beguiled Greyhawk in his abscence, cast a confusion on the very minds and souls of the populace. It was strange, and he’d get to the bottom of this. At least he had Quij, still. He looked about him.
“Quij?” Confound it! He’d left him outside the cathedral and the orc had probably wandered off. That was not so good since they were in Veluna. Lord Robilar retraced his steps to the Cathedral…
To be contionued?
Rob
---
Garden of the Plantmaster, by Rob Kuntz, is available at: http://WWW.HYPERBOOKS.COM/
---
Suport your local *Troll*. A slick, professional RPG magazine offering in-depth articles, modules/game-aids usable in *all* campaign settings, fiction, reviews. Issue #1: *Worlds Within* (my column): “The Return of Greyhawk?” & “Ice Grave,” a World of Kalibruhn module. Subscriptions: Rick Stalder, Eclipse@uit.net
Send reply to: rjkuntz@cgi-net.com
From: rjkuntz
Organization: Creations Unlimited
Subject: [GREYTALK] forwarded message
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:
Robilar Remembers? [Was Old Campaign Synopses]
Date:
Thu, 04 Sep 1997 13:56:19 +0000
From:
rjkuntz
Reply-To:
rjkuntz@cgi-net.com
Organization:
Creations Unlimited
To: Gary R Welsh
References:
1
>
> Now, Dek, I'm not against your point of view but I don't see why we can't
> have some variety of product.
How about detailed areas of the Wild Coast? That was a project of mine previous to giving up the ghost with the old TSR regime. Also Stoink is a winner, hands down. Castle Greyhawk has tremendous potential—and this would be reworked from existing data. My castle El Raja Key and its many sub plots—the list is endless for adventure. And note my market plan for other insights.
>
> G.R. Welsh
>
> CY 597 – the scene: an early autumn morning in a Velunan Cathedral. Qu[iet?]
> acolytes, going about their duties, look up in shock as a cry of outrage
> comes from inside the confessional booth:
>
> “You did WHAT?!? You freed Iuz AND Zuggtmoy?!?! BOTH?!?”
> Robilar shrugged. “I didn't say I was proud of it.”
For the first time in his career the acolyte could not give his blessing, for his heart burst on the spot. “Yurh-aghhh, uhhhhh...,” was all that Lord Robilar heard. He stood and walked from the cathedral and proceeded down an alley.
As Robilar walked he thought of the changed times, mostly about his old—no, he meant “earlier,” nope, it was “old”--friends and enemies. It was all so very strange.
Tenser was reported dead. His one time friend and later his staunchest enemy. Strange. And they claimed he had committed the foul deed. Certainly not without a bit of talk and torture first, he thought. Not even in his blackest moods of those days would he have dispatched such a highly regarded foe without first talking to him, bragging and claiming how much more powerful he was, and all that. After all. He was a villain.
Then Mordenkainen: There had been sporadic murmurs from every wizard he’d met and questioned about the Circle of Eight. How it was now Five, or six on sundays when the old circle members made in effigy a scarecrow likeness of Rary, which was thereafter pummeled by those cudgel wielding priests he disliked so much. But word of Mordenkainen was nowhere to be heard. It was as if he’d disappeared into the mist of fairy. Where were you old friend?
Of course Otto remained, helping and guiding him from afar. But even his pudgy old helper seemed to lack the verve of yester-year. These days his dance was more like a shuffle and he squeaked out the accompanying lines to his ditties. Poor Otto. Once so vibrant and alive. How could this be?
And then there were the other odd facts: That Terik was his brother. Well yes, brother in arms, not blood brother. And what about the Rary affair. Oh, he would redress that upon arriving in Greyhawk. And then the other rumors of the many atrocities he’d supposedly committed with that foul snake of a wizard, Rary. It was as if the Gods had beguiled Greyhawk in his abscence, cast a confusion on the very minds and souls of the populace. It was strange, and he’d get to the bottom of this. At least he had Quij, still. He looked about him.
“Quij?” Confound it! He’d left him outside the cathedral and the orc had probably wandered off. That was not so good since they were in Veluna. Lord Robilar retraced his steps to the Cathedral…
To be contionued?
Rob
---
Garden of the Plantmaster, by Rob Kuntz, is available at: http://WWW.HYPERBOOKS.COM/
---
Suport your local *Troll*. A slick, professional RPG magazine offering in-depth articles, modules/game-aids usable in *all* campaign settings, fiction, reviews. Issue #1: *Worlds Within* (my column): “The Return of Greyhawk?” & “Ice Grave,” a World of Kalibruhn module. Subscriptions: Rick Stalder, Eclipse@uit.net
Sunday, December 14, 2008
Co8 and the disappearing Prince
Subject: [GREYTALK] Co8 and the disappearing Prince
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:46:18 -0600
From: John C Wright
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
Here is a prelude to my upcoming module that is midway in its completion. Hope
you all enjoy and I look forward to any constructive criticisms.
John Wright
********************************************************************************
Adventure Background: Several decades ago, in the late 570's, a temple of great evil arose again within the Flannaess. This 'Temple of Elemental Evil' had been vanquished once before, but as is often the case, the evil only lay dormant long enough for the forces of good to forget and turn an errant eye on the
area.
During this time the young son of King Belvor IV of Furyondy became betrothed to the daughter of the leader of Veluna. Their marriage would unite both kingdoms, and young Thrommel would become the leader of all matters temporal, while his wife would lead the united kingdoms in all matters spiritual. This would be a great blow to not only the forces of evil in the Flannaess, but it would greatly disrupt the balance. Good would hold sway over most lands, and the extra power garnered by the union of Furyondy and Veluna could likely bring about an age of unparalleled peace and prosperity. Mordenkainen, great sorcerer of the Citadel and Circle of Eight, was both an advocate of and defender of the 'Balance.' He firmly believed that with the rise of the Furyondy/Veluna kingdom, that although peace and good would reign for a time, the metaphysical representation of the balance would induce a cataclysm every bit the equal of the 'Invoked Devastation' or the 'Rain of Colorless Fire.' It was then that he began his plan to prevent this supposed cataclysm.
Mordenkainen turned to his colleagues in the Circle of Eight, and explained to them his beliefs. For the most part they all listened objectively, and in many cases nodded their agreement. All save one that is. Tenser had long been a proponent that the Circle should promote and work for good, not hinder it as it would evil forces in an effort to maintain the balance. Tenser argued long and hard against his colleagues, but on the third day of argument they called the matter to a vote. Right before the voting occurred, Mordenkainen spoke to him. "Tenser, we have been friends for years. We have studied many of the same magicks, learned under some of the same sources. We have long been close friends and trusted each other with our lives. Trust me in this, I know what is proper to do here. I would never mislead you and I would do nothing like this unless I knew it was warranted and there was no other way."
Tenser was swayed by the argument, and when the vote occurred, no one opposed it. The Circle began plans then on how best to bring about their result. Ideas of fomenting dissent and possibly war between the two kingdoms were heard, but to these Tenser vehemently refused to even hear more of. If good were to be dealt a blow, he wanted it isolated to a few individuals of power, rather than to a common populace at large.
Finally a plan was arrived at, the Circle would allow a subversive group they had heard of recently, in on the movements of Prince Thrommel, and entice them with a large offer of monetary reward to kidnap him. The Circle never mentioned who they were and worked through intermediaries to supply the Scarlet Brotherhood then with the means to penetrate the courts of Furyondy and spirit away Thrommel. When the agents of the Brotherhood had captured Thrommel, they were to meet with an agent of the Circle in the small village of Hommlet.
The Scarlet Brotherhood agents were successful, and quickly made it to Hommlet, easily evading even the best magical searches due to their high-powered help from the Circle. When the kidnappers reached Hommlet, Mordenkainen (disguised as a simple traveler), passed on to them the fee for their mission well done. The Scarlet Brotherhood agents smiled as they checked the payment, and then mentioned how nice it would be to receive not only this one payment, but a ransom as well. Mordenkain was furious at this betrayal, and quickly attacked the treacherous agents.
Thrommel took this one chance at escape and broke his bindings and sprinted away. An agent of the Brotherhood, seeing the Prince (and his payment) disappearing before his eyes, leveled a crossbow and fired. The bolt flew straight and drove into the Prince's spine. Thrommel collapsed, and then Mordenkainen's spells incinerated the last of the Brotherhood men.
Mordenkainen rushed over to the fallen Prince, and sighed when he saw how pale and deathly the Prince looked. As the Prince's life-blood flowed out Mordenkainen realized that the only way to save the Prince's life was a spell he had memorized in advance. Reaching down to the Prince, Mordenkainen lifted Thrommel's hand and examined the ring on his finger. Nodding in satisfaction, Mordenkainen etched something into the gem set on the ring and then began to chant. The Prince moaned weakly, and then gasped as a filmy white apparition of his body slipped free of his mortal confines and fell into the signet ring on his finger. Mordenkainen smiled grimly, his plan had not come off as cleanly as he would have preferred. Prying the gem from the ring, Mordenkainen then pocketed it, and standing he looked about. Nodding silently to himself, he then uttered a word and vanished from sight.
Several days later, brigands from the 'Temple of Elemental Evil' came across the bodies and proceeded to loot them. One item of note was an expensive signet ring bearing the heraldic symbol of Furyondy. It would be claimed by one of the higher priests down inside the temples dungeons and would remain there for a little while to come.
Later in the year though, a warlord by the name of Robilar came to Hommlet. He had heard of the missing adventurers and the rumors of not only evil, but of buried treasure. Not wanting to miss out on any sort of wealth, he proceeded into the temple, and laid waste to all who opposed him for two solid days. Reaching the lowest levels of the temple, Robilar had an insight into freeing yet another being of power (the reasons behind Robilar's being nearby in almost all cases of imprisoned deities/demon-lords breaking free still astounds many, perhaps he wasn't there by chance, but came with the express intent of freeing Zuggtmoy). Needless to say, after freeing the Fungi Queen, Robilar continued his looting, until he realized that the forces of good, led by Tenser and several wizards of the Eight, had come a calling. Fleeing before their superior forces, he was forced to return to his home, where he was laid siege too. Finally, he and his few men escaped, but not before leaving behind much of the looted treasure. It is here that Tenser found an interesting item. When detecting for magic, he noted one ring seemed to glimmer slightly, and lifting it carefully he noted the symbol of the Furyondy kings. He also noticed the missing gemstone, and immediately broke off helping those gathered sack Robilar's keep. Returning to his own fortress Tenser began to investigate the ring and discovered much of the previous background. His heart was heavy, for he had given his aid to this plan, but he still did not feel comfortable with it. Locking the ring deep within his fortress's vaults, Tenser tried to forget, and did so for several years, before his untimely death at the end of the Greyhawk Wars.
Now it is a little over a year since events of the Return of the Eight, and Tenser is now a solid proponent for good. He has broken from the Circle of Eight and does not believe in their goals anymore. He has seen the heart of evil, and knows that he will oppose it now with all the force he can bring to bear. Now it is time to right one of the wrongs he was involved in, for there is nothing worse than having your body tormented, other than having your soul twisted and broken.
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:46:18 -0600
From: John C Wright
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
Here is a prelude to my upcoming module that is midway in its completion. Hope
you all enjoy and I look forward to any constructive criticisms.
John Wright
********************************************************************************
Adventure Background: Several decades ago, in the late 570's, a temple of great evil arose again within the Flannaess. This 'Temple of Elemental Evil' had been vanquished once before, but as is often the case, the evil only lay dormant long enough for the forces of good to forget and turn an errant eye on the
area.
During this time the young son of King Belvor IV of Furyondy became betrothed to the daughter of the leader of Veluna. Their marriage would unite both kingdoms, and young Thrommel would become the leader of all matters temporal, while his wife would lead the united kingdoms in all matters spiritual. This would be a great blow to not only the forces of evil in the Flannaess, but it would greatly disrupt the balance. Good would hold sway over most lands, and the extra power garnered by the union of Furyondy and Veluna could likely bring about an age of unparalleled peace and prosperity. Mordenkainen, great sorcerer of the Citadel and Circle of Eight, was both an advocate of and defender of the 'Balance.' He firmly believed that with the rise of the Furyondy/Veluna kingdom, that although peace and good would reign for a time, the metaphysical representation of the balance would induce a cataclysm every bit the equal of the 'Invoked Devastation' or the 'Rain of Colorless Fire.' It was then that he began his plan to prevent this supposed cataclysm.
Mordenkainen turned to his colleagues in the Circle of Eight, and explained to them his beliefs. For the most part they all listened objectively, and in many cases nodded their agreement. All save one that is. Tenser had long been a proponent that the Circle should promote and work for good, not hinder it as it would evil forces in an effort to maintain the balance. Tenser argued long and hard against his colleagues, but on the third day of argument they called the matter to a vote. Right before the voting occurred, Mordenkainen spoke to him. "Tenser, we have been friends for years. We have studied many of the same magicks, learned under some of the same sources. We have long been close friends and trusted each other with our lives. Trust me in this, I know what is proper to do here. I would never mislead you and I would do nothing like this unless I knew it was warranted and there was no other way."
Tenser was swayed by the argument, and when the vote occurred, no one opposed it. The Circle began plans then on how best to bring about their result. Ideas of fomenting dissent and possibly war between the two kingdoms were heard, but to these Tenser vehemently refused to even hear more of. If good were to be dealt a blow, he wanted it isolated to a few individuals of power, rather than to a common populace at large.
Finally a plan was arrived at, the Circle would allow a subversive group they had heard of recently, in on the movements of Prince Thrommel, and entice them with a large offer of monetary reward to kidnap him. The Circle never mentioned who they were and worked through intermediaries to supply the Scarlet Brotherhood then with the means to penetrate the courts of Furyondy and spirit away Thrommel. When the agents of the Brotherhood had captured Thrommel, they were to meet with an agent of the Circle in the small village of Hommlet.
The Scarlet Brotherhood agents were successful, and quickly made it to Hommlet, easily evading even the best magical searches due to their high-powered help from the Circle. When the kidnappers reached Hommlet, Mordenkainen (disguised as a simple traveler), passed on to them the fee for their mission well done. The Scarlet Brotherhood agents smiled as they checked the payment, and then mentioned how nice it would be to receive not only this one payment, but a ransom as well. Mordenkain was furious at this betrayal, and quickly attacked the treacherous agents.
Thrommel took this one chance at escape and broke his bindings and sprinted away. An agent of the Brotherhood, seeing the Prince (and his payment) disappearing before his eyes, leveled a crossbow and fired. The bolt flew straight and drove into the Prince's spine. Thrommel collapsed, and then Mordenkainen's spells incinerated the last of the Brotherhood men.
Mordenkainen rushed over to the fallen Prince, and sighed when he saw how pale and deathly the Prince looked. As the Prince's life-blood flowed out Mordenkainen realized that the only way to save the Prince's life was a spell he had memorized in advance. Reaching down to the Prince, Mordenkainen lifted Thrommel's hand and examined the ring on his finger. Nodding in satisfaction, Mordenkainen etched something into the gem set on the ring and then began to chant. The Prince moaned weakly, and then gasped as a filmy white apparition of his body slipped free of his mortal confines and fell into the signet ring on his finger. Mordenkainen smiled grimly, his plan had not come off as cleanly as he would have preferred. Prying the gem from the ring, Mordenkainen then pocketed it, and standing he looked about. Nodding silently to himself, he then uttered a word and vanished from sight.
Several days later, brigands from the 'Temple of Elemental Evil' came across the bodies and proceeded to loot them. One item of note was an expensive signet ring bearing the heraldic symbol of Furyondy. It would be claimed by one of the higher priests down inside the temples dungeons and would remain there for a little while to come.
Later in the year though, a warlord by the name of Robilar came to Hommlet. He had heard of the missing adventurers and the rumors of not only evil, but of buried treasure. Not wanting to miss out on any sort of wealth, he proceeded into the temple, and laid waste to all who opposed him for two solid days. Reaching the lowest levels of the temple, Robilar had an insight into freeing yet another being of power (the reasons behind Robilar's being nearby in almost all cases of imprisoned deities/demon-lords breaking free still astounds many, perhaps he wasn't there by chance, but came with the express intent of freeing Zuggtmoy). Needless to say, after freeing the Fungi Queen, Robilar continued his looting, until he realized that the forces of good, led by Tenser and several wizards of the Eight, had come a calling. Fleeing before their superior forces, he was forced to return to his home, where he was laid siege too. Finally, he and his few men escaped, but not before leaving behind much of the looted treasure. It is here that Tenser found an interesting item. When detecting for magic, he noted one ring seemed to glimmer slightly, and lifting it carefully he noted the symbol of the Furyondy kings. He also noticed the missing gemstone, and immediately broke off helping those gathered sack Robilar's keep. Returning to his own fortress Tenser began to investigate the ring and discovered much of the previous background. His heart was heavy, for he had given his aid to this plan, but he still did not feel comfortable with it. Locking the ring deep within his fortress's vaults, Tenser tried to forget, and did so for several years, before his untimely death at the end of the Greyhawk Wars.
Now it is a little over a year since events of the Return of the Eight, and Tenser is now a solid proponent for good. He has broken from the Circle of Eight and does not believe in their goals anymore. He has seen the heart of evil, and knows that he will oppose it now with all the force he can bring to bear. Now it is time to right one of the wrongs he was involved in, for there is nothing worse than having your body tormented, other than having your soul twisted and broken.
Thursday, December 4, 2008
Re: Circle of Darkness
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Circle of Darkness
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:09:16 -0800
From: Sky Kruse
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
>What if Rary was about to be discovered, so he "switches" to evil and
>starts working that side of the equation?
I never went as far as creating a "Circle of Darkness" in my (currently on-hold) Greyhawk campaign, but IMC the Rary the Traitor scenario was a ruse, staged by the Circle in order to appear weak and fractious near the end of the Wars. All the other major power blocs had been battered by the Wars, but the Circle was relatively untouched, at the literal center of the map, and far more "open to public scrutiny" than they had been previously. Instead of being the clandestine workers-behind-the-scenes, they were suddenly prominent and in the proverbial gunsights of everyone else who sought different ends from their own.
So, Tenser and Otiluke "played dead" and went underground, becoming free to operate (in magical disguise, of course) elsewhere, and Rary openly "split", eliciting Robilar's help in this conspiracy, while secretly still working with the Circle and just at a (barely-removed) distance. From the outside, the heavy hitters of the Circle were gone or divided against each other... and most of their foes bought it, since most of those who would fear and seek to destroy the Circle had been a part of similar power grabs in their own rise to glory.
>What if the whole Tenser and Otiluke situation was one where they were
>having their qualms about the situation. Or maybe just Tenser did and
>Otiluke got caught in the crossfire. Maybe when he is brought back by
>the characters in Rot8, he realizes that he can't "out" the Circle, so
>he makes an uneasy truce and goes off to promote lawful good causes.
Well, this is one reason I probably won't run Rot8... =)
>Also, in terms of divinations, it seems that many of the wizards or
>clerics who could do them might be "in the pockets" of the Circle.
Entirely possible... IMC, the Scarlet Brotherhood was widely feared and there was a lot of secrecy kept even where it didn't necessarily seem appropriate, because one could never be sure who the spies were. This played nicely into the hands of the Circle... but even some of the Circle apprentices weren't let in on the overall scheme.
>So who would smoking man be?
Zagyg =) he's obviously smoking something...
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:09:16 -0800
From: Sky Kruse
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
>What if Rary was about to be discovered, so he "switches" to evil and
>starts working that side of the equation?
I never went as far as creating a "Circle of Darkness" in my (currently on-hold) Greyhawk campaign, but IMC the Rary the Traitor scenario was a ruse, staged by the Circle in order to appear weak and fractious near the end of the Wars. All the other major power blocs had been battered by the Wars, but the Circle was relatively untouched, at the literal center of the map, and far more "open to public scrutiny" than they had been previously. Instead of being the clandestine workers-behind-the-scenes, they were suddenly prominent and in the proverbial gunsights of everyone else who sought different ends from their own.
So, Tenser and Otiluke "played dead" and went underground, becoming free to operate (in magical disguise, of course) elsewhere, and Rary openly "split", eliciting Robilar's help in this conspiracy, while secretly still working with the Circle and just at a (barely-removed) distance. From the outside, the heavy hitters of the Circle were gone or divided against each other... and most of their foes bought it, since most of those who would fear and seek to destroy the Circle had been a part of similar power grabs in their own rise to glory.
>What if the whole Tenser and Otiluke situation was one where they were
>having their qualms about the situation. Or maybe just Tenser did and
>Otiluke got caught in the crossfire. Maybe when he is brought back by
>the characters in Rot8, he realizes that he can't "out" the Circle, so
>he makes an uneasy truce and goes off to promote lawful good causes.
Well, this is one reason I probably won't run Rot8... =)
>Also, in terms of divinations, it seems that many of the wizards or
>clerics who could do them might be "in the pockets" of the Circle.
Entirely possible... IMC, the Scarlet Brotherhood was widely feared and there was a lot of secrecy kept even where it didn't necessarily seem appropriate, because one could never be sure who the spies were. This played nicely into the hands of the Circle... but even some of the Circle apprentices weren't let in on the overall scheme.
>So who would smoking man be?
Zagyg =) he's obviously smoking something...
Circle of Darkness (long)
Subject: [GREYTALK] Circle of Darkness (long)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:45:33 -0600
From: John C Wright
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
Lisa Stevens wrote:
>IMC, the Circle of Darkness will actually be the balancing half of the
>Circle of Eight. I got to thinking, if you truly believe in neutrality,
>nobody is going to trust you and it will be hard for you to get things
>done.
-snip-
>So when I say that the Circle of Darkness is the balancing half of the
>Circle of Eight, I mean that the eight wizards who make up the Co8 are
>the same wizards who make up the CoD, only in different guises and under
>different names.
I can see this as being somewhat plausible, but in the long-run...when the wizards know that adventurers can and often do screw things up and figure things out, then the entire Co8 and CoD ploys would be totally useless as no one would trust the wizards in any of their guises. If the Co8 is truly behind the CoD (which is very possible) then they would instead prefer to work through intermediaries I would think to limit the possibility of their being revealed as working in conjunction with the forces of evil.
Scott Casper wrote:
>Wouldn't a mid-level spellcaster have been able to cast Locate Object, wh=
>ile
>standing next to the body in question, and "look" for the remains of Cymr=
>ia? =
>
>If the body was a fake, the spell wouldn't register it.
Locate object on the body? The way I understand the spell it doesn't work on living beings, and on objects (which a body is of course) it requires complete familiarity to function properly. So if the wizard is looking at the body...why would they need to locate it...as the spell would reveal the body is directly in front of them still. I would like to hear more on this from others though, as my interpetation is of course only my own. High-level divinations could very well reveal that it is not her body...or could show that it is. As I stated in the notes, Cymria may or may not be dead...it depends of course on how the DM wishes to run it. In most campaigns where the players do not know her, then it would of course be no loss, except to Tenser. In my campaign though, Cymria is a common friend to many in the group and her loss is felt by them and will be investigated thoroughly.
Chris Anderson wrote in response to Lisa Stevens:
>I see where you're going with this, but it strikes me that it's impractical.
>In a world of divinatory magic, et al, I don't think that you could keep a
>secret like that for very long.
>
>Besides, there's nothing wrong with having non-Co8 high-level groups that
>have differing motivations.
>
>IMC, I have the Scarlet Circle (no, it's not related to the Brotherhood),
>the Knights of the Golden Dawn, the Iron Fist, and some other
>(non-flashy-named) groups which coexist with the Co8. All have differing
>goals and purposes.
Secrets can be kept amazing lengths of time depending on how involved the group is in the world at large. The Scarlet Brotherhood for example has been almost completely unknown for centuries, and were only recently 'discovered' as being involved in the world. The CoD could have kept their initial existence secret easily, and only through the mistakes with the Doomgrinder do they stand a chance of being revealed to the world. Of course as they become more enmeshed in the world, then their group will become more noticed of course. As for their secrecy, the Co8 is commonly heard of, but few people actually know who all make up the Co8, at least according to the 'canon' information in the Greyhawk supplements. Secrets are wizards best friends, and for more ideas on secret societies check out the recent Dragon Magazine article on them.
Kent Matthewson wrote:
<<
I find it hard to imagine a situation wherein the Circle would justifiably
work on the side of evil (excluding evil in the name of preventing a greater
evil for example). If I were to define the Circle of Eight's objective, it
would be to restore the balance that has shifted towards evil, which is
still somewhat different from working for "good".
>>
The Co8 are likely some of the most misunderstood groups about. Due to their being filled by some of the biggest wizard names about, everyone assumes they are all good and nice, but a key thing is to note how Tenser looks at them (especially after the Rot8 adventure). In old novels, and sources the Co8 worked for means less than noble, and in the Gord novels if I am not mistaken, it is revealed that Mordenkainen and the Co8 are part of the reason that the Prince of Furyondy was removed. Good grew too powerful in their minds with the union of Veluna and Furyondy, so Mordenkainen helped to arrange that it would not happen. (This of course is being covered in the adventure I am currently working up, which pits the adventurerers as either allies of Tenser, or the Co8 and how they deal with the methods of each group).
Keldreth wrote:
>While I could not imagine the Co8 trying to destablize the future of this, if
>they tried, there are certain mages and others who would have big problems
>with this.
The Co8 will likely involve and work against anything which they do not see as being in the best 'balance' for Oerth. A circle of arch-magi would have a tough time dealing with all of the magical avenues available to a determined high-level opponent. Yes, I have found that to be true.
Chris Anderson wrote:
>We're talking about contacting other planes and powers, clerical divinatory
>magic, magic-user spells, speaking with dead, etc. Have you tried to do
>this in a real game? It's damn hard without pulling out the "deus ex
>machina" excuse as to why their attempts fail.
I have tried to use many of the divinations in various games. And they are not all knowing by far. If used properly, the spells can be useful, but many times they can give little to any information, especially if the target is amply shielded from divinatory magics. (non-detection, mind-shielding, mind blank, etc.) Add in a limited wish or two, for either prevention of scrying, or for those who attempt divinations against the target to say suffer the effects of a feeblemind, and the wizard is quite amply protected.
Few deities offer high-level divinations, and those which do are most likely of a neutral bent (Rao and Delleb being exceptions of course). So before these priesthoods bend their power to using their greatest divinations, either they must be involved in the current problems, or others must come to them with sufficient reason to involve them. Even then, the answers are not guaranteed. As for Speak with Dead, if the dead person knows nothing, or if their soul has been stolen or imprisoned, there is little information they can give. For wizards, divinations often run along with dangerous side-effects. Contact other Plane gives the wizard a significant chance for insanity, and few wizards would risk this chance unless they were directly involved.
Eric VdW wrote in response to Kent Matthewson:
>I see your point, but then what were the Co8 doing before the Greyhawk
>Wars? You're right, I can't see Drawmij (well, maybe Drawmij...he's
>got a very cold description) attacking a group of paladins in order to
>"preserve the balance", but remember that the Co8 work behind the
>scenes to make sure these things happen.
>
>But what are their goals following this middle path? In other words,
>what do we do with these guys?
Check out Warnes Starcoats write-up. If anyone is going to kill some paladins to further the balance...this is the man to do it. He has already gotten into a huge argument with King Lynwerd and he is definitely a cold fish who would not mind sacrificing a few 'noble' souls to see his beliefs carried out. As for what do we do with them? We use the Co8 as a group who believes that due to their innate superiority (they are all powerful wizards, and vastly more intelligent than the common man or ruler...or so they believe), that it is up to them to insure that the world runs smoothly. And if some idiot cambion or some fool paladin tries to throw a monkey-wrench in the works, they turn a bit of that magical might on them and clean out the gears.
Miles wrote:
>The Co8 have seen what happens when people get too powerful. ie - invoked
>devestation and rain of colourless fire, and so have decided that the best
>way to stop this ever happening again is to stop people getting too
>powerful - good or evil.
>
>This could mean that when the PC's are lower or mid level, the Co8 could be
>of great help to them, but when they start getting high level and their
>adventures start having world shattering consequences, the Co8 might start
>sending other adventurers out to get them.
Exactly, the Co8 uses adventurers until they become too problematic, then use newer adventurers to clean out the old.
Well this string went from original questions about the CoD on into deep philosophical questions about the goals and motives of the Co8, but I hope that the points I have tried to cover and the questions I have tried to answer were clear.
John Wright
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:45:33 -0600
From: John C Wright
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
Lisa Stevens wrote:
>IMC, the Circle of Darkness will actually be the balancing half of the
>Circle of Eight. I got to thinking, if you truly believe in neutrality,
>nobody is going to trust you and it will be hard for you to get things
>done.
-snip-
>So when I say that the Circle of Darkness is the balancing half of the
>Circle of Eight, I mean that the eight wizards who make up the Co8 are
>the same wizards who make up the CoD, only in different guises and under
>different names.
I can see this as being somewhat plausible, but in the long-run...when the wizards know that adventurers can and often do screw things up and figure things out, then the entire Co8 and CoD ploys would be totally useless as no one would trust the wizards in any of their guises. If the Co8 is truly behind the CoD (which is very possible) then they would instead prefer to work through intermediaries I would think to limit the possibility of their being revealed as working in conjunction with the forces of evil.
Scott Casper wrote:
>Wouldn't a mid-level spellcaster have been able to cast Locate Object, wh=
>ile
>standing next to the body in question, and "look" for the remains of Cymr=
>ia? =
>
>If the body was a fake, the spell wouldn't register it.
Locate object on the body? The way I understand the spell it doesn't work on living beings, and on objects (which a body is of course) it requires complete familiarity to function properly. So if the wizard is looking at the body...why would they need to locate it...as the spell would reveal the body is directly in front of them still. I would like to hear more on this from others though, as my interpetation is of course only my own. High-level divinations could very well reveal that it is not her body...or could show that it is. As I stated in the notes, Cymria may or may not be dead...it depends of course on how the DM wishes to run it. In most campaigns where the players do not know her, then it would of course be no loss, except to Tenser. In my campaign though, Cymria is a common friend to many in the group and her loss is felt by them and will be investigated thoroughly.
Chris Anderson wrote in response to Lisa Stevens:
>I see where you're going with this, but it strikes me that it's impractical.
>In a world of divinatory magic, et al, I don't think that you could keep a
>secret like that for very long.
>
>Besides, there's nothing wrong with having non-Co8 high-level groups that
>have differing motivations.
>
>IMC, I have the Scarlet Circle (no, it's not related to the Brotherhood),
>the Knights of the Golden Dawn, the Iron Fist, and some other
>(non-flashy-named) groups which coexist with the Co8. All have differing
>goals and purposes.
Secrets can be kept amazing lengths of time depending on how involved the group is in the world at large. The Scarlet Brotherhood for example has been almost completely unknown for centuries, and were only recently 'discovered' as being involved in the world. The CoD could have kept their initial existence secret easily, and only through the mistakes with the Doomgrinder do they stand a chance of being revealed to the world. Of course as they become more enmeshed in the world, then their group will become more noticed of course. As for their secrecy, the Co8 is commonly heard of, but few people actually know who all make up the Co8, at least according to the 'canon' information in the Greyhawk supplements. Secrets are wizards best friends, and for more ideas on secret societies check out the recent Dragon Magazine article on them.
Kent Matthewson wrote:
<<
I find it hard to imagine a situation wherein the Circle would justifiably
work on the side of evil (excluding evil in the name of preventing a greater
evil for example). If I were to define the Circle of Eight's objective, it
would be to restore the balance that has shifted towards evil, which is
still somewhat different from working for "good".
>>
The Co8 are likely some of the most misunderstood groups about. Due to their being filled by some of the biggest wizard names about, everyone assumes they are all good and nice, but a key thing is to note how Tenser looks at them (especially after the Rot8 adventure). In old novels, and sources the Co8 worked for means less than noble, and in the Gord novels if I am not mistaken, it is revealed that Mordenkainen and the Co8 are part of the reason that the Prince of Furyondy was removed. Good grew too powerful in their minds with the union of Veluna and Furyondy, so Mordenkainen helped to arrange that it would not happen. (This of course is being covered in the adventure I am currently working up, which pits the adventurerers as either allies of Tenser, or the Co8 and how they deal with the methods of each group).
Keldreth wrote:
>While I could not imagine the Co8 trying to destablize the future of this, if
>they tried, there are certain mages and others who would have big problems
>with this.
The Co8 will likely involve and work against anything which they do not see as being in the best 'balance' for Oerth. A circle of arch-magi would have a tough time dealing with all of the magical avenues available to a determined high-level opponent. Yes, I have found that to be true.
Chris Anderson wrote:
>We're talking about contacting other planes and powers, clerical divinatory
>magic, magic-user spells, speaking with dead, etc. Have you tried to do
>this in a real game? It's damn hard without pulling out the "deus ex
>machina" excuse as to why their attempts fail.
I have tried to use many of the divinations in various games. And they are not all knowing by far. If used properly, the spells can be useful, but many times they can give little to any information, especially if the target is amply shielded from divinatory magics. (non-detection, mind-shielding, mind blank, etc.) Add in a limited wish or two, for either prevention of scrying, or for those who attempt divinations against the target to say suffer the effects of a feeblemind, and the wizard is quite amply protected.
Few deities offer high-level divinations, and those which do are most likely of a neutral bent (Rao and Delleb being exceptions of course). So before these priesthoods bend their power to using their greatest divinations, either they must be involved in the current problems, or others must come to them with sufficient reason to involve them. Even then, the answers are not guaranteed. As for Speak with Dead, if the dead person knows nothing, or if their soul has been stolen or imprisoned, there is little information they can give. For wizards, divinations often run along with dangerous side-effects. Contact other Plane gives the wizard a significant chance for insanity, and few wizards would risk this chance unless they were directly involved.
Eric VdW wrote in response to Kent Matthewson:
>I see your point, but then what were the Co8 doing before the Greyhawk
>Wars? You're right, I can't see Drawmij (well, maybe Drawmij...he's
>got a very cold description) attacking a group of paladins in order to
>"preserve the balance", but remember that the Co8 work behind the
>scenes to make sure these things happen.
>
>But what are their goals following this middle path? In other words,
>what do we do with these guys?
Check out Warnes Starcoats write-up. If anyone is going to kill some paladins to further the balance...this is the man to do it. He has already gotten into a huge argument with King Lynwerd and he is definitely a cold fish who would not mind sacrificing a few 'noble' souls to see his beliefs carried out. As for what do we do with them? We use the Co8 as a group who believes that due to their innate superiority (they are all powerful wizards, and vastly more intelligent than the common man or ruler...or so they believe), that it is up to them to insure that the world runs smoothly. And if some idiot cambion or some fool paladin tries to throw a monkey-wrench in the works, they turn a bit of that magical might on them and clean out the gears.
Miles wrote:
>The Co8 have seen what happens when people get too powerful. ie - invoked
>devestation and rain of colourless fire, and so have decided that the best
>way to stop this ever happening again is to stop people getting too
>powerful - good or evil.
>
>This could mean that when the PC's are lower or mid level, the Co8 could be
>of great help to them, but when they start getting high level and their
>adventures start having world shattering consequences, the Co8 might start
>sending other adventurers out to get them.
Exactly, the Co8 uses adventurers until they become too problematic, then use newer adventurers to clean out the old.
Well this string went from original questions about the CoD on into deep philosophical questions about the goals and motives of the Co8, but I hope that the points I have tried to cover and the questions I have tried to answer were clear.
John Wright
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