Suloise vs Baklunish

 From: Allen [gargoyle@GVI.NET]

Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 4:35 PM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] (Suloise vs Baklunish)

>While I am sort of on this Suloise kick--what makes anyone think the current batch of barbarians found on the Thillonrian Peninsula have anything to do ith their ancient Suloise forefathers ( or fore-mothers if you follow the matriarchal lineage idea), or in any way but the most crude resemble the vikings of Old Earth?

My own take on this has been that the Thillornian Penn. was inhabited by a minor race when the seul refugees made it there. Through various conflicts, politics, etc., the two peoples merged into one, retaining mostly cultural elements of the original race and the reiligion and appearance of the seul. Not perfect, but it works ...

> They were the ragged remains of a people that first invaded what is now the Yeomanry and Keoland. After consecutive drubbings they ended up in lands no one else either owned or wanted. So some questions I have ...

> Who taught them about boats? I haven't a clue on this one.

> Would they even bother with a batch of deities that more-or-less failed to prevent the downfall of one of the greatest empires the Oerth has ever seen? Llerg, yes! Maybe even Norebo. But Braim, Beltar, Lydia, and Lendor, probably not. I don't see mages as having real high status among the Thillonrian barbarians--magery was equally responsible for everyone on the sub-continent hating them with a passion. So Wee Jas probably wouldn't have a real big following their either. You might be able to give Xerbo, Phyton, Phaulkon, and Furtubo more "macho" aspects. Rough them up a bit and give them a cruder, less subtle edge. Kord needs to become more than just the god of sports. IMC he has a very strong storm aspect (sort of the Stormbull of the north, ala RQ). Pyremius (the poisonous dwarf) and Syrul (his lying mom) are just deities of those sour old folks who remember the good old days when the Suloise enslaved everyone and sacrificed them on bloody altars.

> How did such a decadent culture (as the Suel Dominion) lend itself to survival in the frozen north? It probably didn't. I would say they probably copied the survival techniques and society of some other unnamed (possibly Flani) culture already living in the area. Maybe they intermarried, maybe they didn't. Maybe they were just successful enough to overwhelm the natives, subjugate them and maintain a few of the Old Ways.

> Anyway, just a few thoughts on what many folk take to be assumptions.

>--Chris Jarvis

My list of deities for the Thillornian barbarians is likewise different from the standard seul - I include many norse or norse-like deities.

Dealing with the Gods

Re: Greyhawk parallels to real world deities

Re: [greytalk] Re: Knights of the Watch

Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:30 AM
From: "Chris Anderson"
To: "Marc-Tizoc González"
Cc: greytalk@canonfire.com

I've always envisioned Ket as being culturally like the Seljuk Turks. Tusmit, Ekbir, and Zeif would be more like the Arabic cultures of Baghdad circa 800-1000AD. Ull is the Mongol equivalent (I confess ... the city of Ilkhan did that for me) and the Paynims are the moral equivalent of the Empire of Tamerlane for me, sans Samarkand.

For me, Ket, Bissel, and Veluna would have much the same tensions that Byzantium and the Turks had... not because of religion, but because of competing cultures. Which would make Bissel the Outremer of Keoland... except that we have no crusades. :-)

Personally, I think the idea of a Crusade from the Flanaess into Baklunish lands is silly, unless somehow the Suloise remembered their history, got organized, and got seriously mad. Mad in both meanings of the term, too.

So, it would never happen.

-- Chris
On 3/19/07, Marc-Tizoc González wrote:
Thanks to all for responding. This level of historical information is one of GreyTalk's strengths.

Rafu mentioned that the comparison between civilized Bakluna and the Ottoman Empire is off and suggested comparing the Baklunish to pre-Ottoman Arabs is better.

He and Chris Anderson also distinguished the factors of Earth's Crusades and the sociopolitical situation between the Kingdom of Keoland, Veluna, and Ket. It's interesting that an Oerthly crusade seems unlikely given Keoland's failure to hold what it tried to conquer during its historical expansionism.

In contrast, the uncivilized Bakluni nomads have twice invaded substantial regions of the Flanaess.

MTG

Raffaele Manzo < raffaele.manzo@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why did many of the Crusades seem to originate in kingdoms of France and
> England? Is that historically inaccurate?

Historically accurate or not, I think we tend to get such an impression because those two kingdoms were the two largest unified political entities within Roman Catholic Europe during most of the Middle Ages (the two which stand out resembling "nations" to our modern eyes).

As an aside, since you mentioned the Crusades... I believe the Knights of the Watch have something of the (historical Crusades-era) Templars. Templar Knights were "soldier monks" tasked with defending the small Christian "kingdoms" in the Holy Land - a shard of Western Europe surrounded by Arab nations. In a sense, if you think of "greater Keoland area" states as a Western Europe, and of Bakluni as Arabs, then you've got Western Europe and Near East sharing a long border - longer than any Holy Land kingdom was large (though nearly impassable mountain ranges do help) - and the Watchers patrolling it. Of course, you can only draw so much similarities... You won't have any "Crusades" in the Flanaess, at least not "Watcher-nations vs
Baklunish states" Crusades. Real world Crusades were born from politically opposed peoples *not* sharing a geographical border, but sharing a distant cultural heritage which brought both sides to hold a certain place as "holy". If you look ad Baklunish states vs. Gran March, Keoland etc. you're looking at politically opposed peoples who
*do* share a border, but having no common cultural heritage whatsoever (a much more common situation in the majority of real-world conflicts as well).

Oh, yes... and I would *not* liken the Bakluni to the Ottoman Empire. Pre-Ottoman Arabs is a much closer call, I believe.

____
Rafu
(the gamer formerly known as "Lord Raphael")
http://victordraconem.blogspot.com

Re: Ehlonna and Sheldomar (still long)

Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:53:26 +1200
From: Craig & Julie
Subject: Re: Ehlonna and Sheldomar (still long)

>
>Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:12:55 GMT
>From: Paul Looby
>Subject: Re: Ehlonna and Sheldomar (still long)
>
>>So, you're postulating a seasonal "let's all go to the hills" for the
>>entire Sheldomar valley? :-)
>
>Yeah why not - load up granny and the kids on a cart and hit the road! :=
P
>
>No seriously - if you want to put seasonal floods in - then meltwater f=
rom
>the Lortmils in spring is the way to do it. I don't have the map in fron=
t of
>me - but IIRC the Sheldomar has a lot of tributaries sourced in the
>mountains which will catch meltwater runoff in spring.
>
>The magnitude of the effect downstream is another question. The topology=
of
>the river valley and the soil types there would be big factors I think (=
not
>being a geographer). It might not be an all out head for the hills - but
>there probably would be some seasonal flooding.
>That's my take on it - anyone want to add to, subtract from or just plai=
n
>napalm this?
>
>
>> What's the average height of the Lortmils? They are geologically old a=
nd
>> weathered so I'd say not so high (maybe 1000 metres with the odd high=
er
>> peak) so with the exception of a few months (at most over winter) pro=
bably
>> don't get snow very often, so probably not too much run off in spring.
>>
>Pat E wrote:=20
>The Appalacians are old as well, but the presidentials, and green mounta=
ins
>(NH, and VT) get a TON of snow, and contribute to spring flooding along =
local
>rivers (such as the Saco river, east of Mt. Washington).
While Paul Wrote:=20
>Still if you look at places like the mountains of central Spain and sout=
hern
>Italy - they get snow in winter. Not a whole lot, but enough to cause fl=
oods
>occasionally.

Both these examples are in the 40-45 latitudes (approximately the same as the lands of Iuz, while the Lortmils are closer to 30 degrees lat (Shanghai, Israel, Libya). I'm not saying that these lats. don't get snow, they do but in my interpretation of the Lortmils they don't get a lot of snow, not enough anyway to cause spring melt problems in the Sheldomar basin. I have them as similar to my local hills, they get the odd dump of snow over the winter but it seldom lasts more than a day or so, sometimes a week and it doesn't cause too many problems, there is some flooding but
that's mainly due to the rain at lower altitudes than snow. I don't see winter melt as being too much of a problem in the Lortmils. The rivers would flood occasionally but this is probably more due to rainfall than snow melt.

I have the snow line ending further north, maybe somewhere in Furyondy with falls infrequent further South.

>>The Sheldomar starts in Rushmoor and again I don't see this as a major
>>cause of spring run off, it lacks a big Mt catchment to really get a lo=
t of
>>spring melt. The Javan on the other hand probably floods a lot with tho=
se
>>Mt tributaries flowing down from the Crystalmists!
>
>Agreed on the Javan. Doesn't the Sheldomar have three or four tributarie=
s
>sourced in the Lortmils though?=20

Yep, but the Lortmils are a lot lower than the Crystalmists. I'd equate the Javan more in line with the Ganges as its headwaters are in the Flanaesses equivelant of the Himalayas, so I'd see seasonal flooding as being quite a problem in that valley, not so much in the Sheldomar one- well at least not caused by snows. I'd have spring rains causing floods more than snow melt in the Sheldomar Basin, but that's just me.

>
>That's how I see them as well. Wide dry grasslands - rain perhaps in spr=
ing
>and winter (?).
>
>>The Uleks, which I've never really developed, I'd say would again be
>>something similar - perhaps like parts of Victoria or South Australia, =
good
>>for wheat & vineyards. Intensive farming along the river valleys, pator=
al
>>sheep farming in the drier uplands.
>
>I'd go with that - but I also see occasional floods in springtime. The
>rivers might not overflow every year - but every so often they will,
>especially with a particularly wet spring after a hard winter.

Agreed. actually I've just checked my notes on Keoland & found that I've put a reasonable amount of emphasis on spring floods, so may have to reverse my argument :)Oops.

>Paul
>

Probably better you didn't:)
My geography degree has only been good for writing up countries for my AD&D campaigns!

BTW here in my take on the climate of the region, based on my incomplete write up of Keoland.

Climate
Keoland enjoys a temperate, Mediterranean style climate. Summers tend to be long, hot, dry and dusty with the temperatures often reaching into the mid to high thirties (Celsius). Winters tend to be mild with the temperature seldom dipping below freezing, except in the northern provinces.

The climate is driest in the central and western regions; areas close to the two main river valleys, the Sheldomar and the Javan, use irrigation and canals to bring water to the crops during the driest months. Gradsul and the southern coast has the highest annual rainfall. In most areas precipitation occurs mainly during the spring months when the moisture heavy south-easterly winds sweep in from the Azure Sea bringing the rains which replenishes and nourishes the soil. Summer is dry often bringing droughts especially to the inland regions. In both spring and autumn the plains are swept by fierce thunderstorms. Cumuli-nimbus clouds tower up into the stratosphere, bringing heavy rains and sometimes even tornados.

Keoland's climate is due both to its geographic location and the prevailing long term synoptic weather patterns in Greyhawk. In the winter months the prevailing winds in the Flanaess come from the north-east, sweeping down across the central kingdoms into Keoland, bringing snow to many of the more northerly kingdoms but having spent most of their force by the time they reach the Lortmils they bring little more than cold dry winds, with little or no rain to Keoland. However they do deposit some snow on the higher peaks of the Lortmil Mountains and bring frosts and cold temperatures to the northern provinces of the kingdom.

In spring the south east trade winds arrive, blowing in from the Solnor Ocean and Azure Sea and pushing the winter winds back northward. The south easterlies are warm and moisture laiden and as they meet the cold dry northerly winds they bring rain to the lands. These spring fronts bring heavy rains to Keoland and the other nations of the Sheldomar Valley for about a month during Planting but as quickly as they arrive the rains depart and the long hot summer begins.

As well as having heavier rainfall the coastal regions are also more humid than the central and northern provinces, due to the influence of the Azure Sea. Another feature of the climate of Keoland is the hot, dry Fohn wind, called the Dragon's Breathe by locals, that blows in from the Sea of Dust beyond the Crystalmist Mountains. This super-dry wind dries the land, sucking the last of the moisture out of the air as it blows down from the high mountain valleys. The Dragon's Breathe (Note: I have to come up with a better name than that one day:) brings high winds, dust clouds and scorching temperatures to Keoland during summer.

Keoland's climate has a definite north-south and east to west gradient. The central and northern regions tend to be both hottest and driest during the summer months and the coolest during winter as they are furthest from the moderating influences of the Azure Sea and so have the greatest extremes in temperature. Summers tend to be coolest in the Good Hills where the higher elevation brings cooler temperatures. During winter these hills sometimes get a sprinkling of snow but it seldom remains for more than a day or two

Geography
Keoland is a large kingdom in the South West portion of the Flanaess. The
Rushmoors form the nominal western boundary of the kingdom while in Azure Sea, some 600 miles south of these marshes form the southern boundary. To the east the mighty Sheldomar River is the kingdoms eastern border while the Javan River bounds it to the west. In the far north western corner of the kingdom the most recent acquisition to the lands, the County of Javan lies on the western shore of the Javan and this province stretches as far west as the Stark Mounds.

Most of the kingdom lies within the Sheldomar River Basin and consists of a huge plain that stretches from Gradsul in the South to the Thornwood, the capital of Bissel far to the north, a distance of some 1,000 miles.

The country generally slopes from west to east slowly rising in elevation the further west one travels. The vast plains of Keoland barely rise more than 300' in height from the Sheldomar River to the foot hills of the Good Hills, some 250 miles further west. These highlands are the only hills of any note in Keoland, and reach a peak of some 1500 feet above sea level. They are named the Good Hills for they are both fertile and have a favourable climate for growing crops and for orchards as well. Apples, pears, apricots, peaches, olives and even some citrus fruits are all grown in the valleys and slopes of the Good Hills. Beyond the hills the land falls away sharply as the hills drop down the Javan River Valley.

The most fertile soils are found closest to the Javan and Sheldomar River's where the annual floods deposits alluvial material that supplies the sustenance for the regions cops. The further north and west one travels from the Sheldomar the drier and stonier the soils get and the less suitable they become for arable farming. Instead the northern and central areas tend to rely more upon the raising of livestock, especially sheep and goats, for their livelihood.

Because the richest soils tend to be located nearest the Sheldomar Valley it isn't surprising to find that the majority of the kingdom's population live near this vital waterway, in fact more than 60% of the population live within 100 miles of the Sheldomar river, in the three main provinces of Gradsul, Sheldomar and Middlemarch. Population density is lessens in the central and western areas of the these provinces. The least populated provinces are in the far northern borderland provinces of (Javan, Rushmoor and Northmarch as well as the Southern Marches which lie between Dreadwood and the Azure Sea. The cooler, more temperate climate of the Good Hills, with its fertile soils, is also a favourable place to live so this region tends to be quite densely settled as well.

Cheers

Craig Courtis

Re: Greyhawk Grumbler

Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler
Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:07 PM
From: "Mark Carscadden"
To: "'greytalk'"

True, but IMO he would have at least implied printing presses existed somewhere - hey, it's not a big deal one way or the other for me, I just don't think it feels right.

----- Original Message -----
From: Vest III, Robert W
To: 'greytalk'
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I’m sure there are hundreds of things EGG didn’t bother mentioning simply because he didn’t feel such things necessary to play the game. After all, a printing press isn’t near as exciting as a city full of killer robots.

From: Mark Carscadden [mailto:markcarscadden@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:46 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I think a printing press is something that would be a better fit in the FR setting, IMO. Gygax would have certainly at least briefly mentioned something as significant as a printing press if it existed in his setting. But as always, that's the way it will be in MY Greyhawk campaign...

----- Original Message -----

From: Wade Nolen
To: 'greytalk'
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Insisting that the print run of the Grumbler is more than the population of the Free City of Greyhawk itself is the utmost sheer folly.

And beyond that … the “single guy” is doing the same thing in CoGH … no one said that these things are everywhere. No one said that there are more than just the Grumbler (although we know that there are two.) This is a localized thing, specific to Greyhawk City, and what’s more, there’s nothing (of which I am aware, other than the author’s post-script here) that it’s not wood-block printing, or something other than the “mechanized” stuff that you insist on. There were printing presses long before Industrialization or the Mechanized era.

Signature
Wade K. Nolen
aka "Icarus "
I'm off to gallivant among the clouds!
" ... and he did fly, and he was seen on the wings of the wind."

From: CJ MacLean [mailto:icar@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:57 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I'm not talking about a single guy with bits of clay producing 20 copies of something. I am talking about the level of mechanization society has to have for a press run of 5000-30,000 (or more).

From: Vest III, Robert W [mailto:rvest@ius.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:15 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

There is actually a canonical precedent for having printing presses in the Flanaess. See the Age of Worms backdrop article on Alhaster (Dungeon 131), which mentions an underground broadsheet in Alhaster called The Sinchaser Report.

Re: greytalk Digest 24 Nov 2009 04:14:43 -0000 Issue 1134

Re: greytalk Digest 24 Nov 2009 04:14:43 -0000 Issue 1134
Monday, November 23, 2009 11:18 PM
From: "Brian McRae"
To: greytalk-digest-help@canonfire.com
Cc: greytalk@canonfire.com

Reminds me of something that a scholarly wizard did in my campaign. The wizard chronicled his adventures through the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun in great detail, and had 200 hand-scribed copies made at great expense. He was amazed at how quickly the copies sold. After a visit from representatives of some very powerful and influential religions and arch-mages. He kind of understood that the books were likely being studied by top men. Top men.

As to printing, wood block print would work well, and even simple movable type(wood letter blocks in a frame) is doable. However, with spells like copy(a dirt cheap 1st level spell from the 2e "Wizard's Handbook") in existence, if it does exist in a particular DM's campaign, circulating even books becomes much more simple. Now, with regards to movable type, it would take even less time and expense to just have a spell caster cast a spell that changes the shape of the wood block stamp to be embossed with reverse images of the required type/images, and then you just print as much as you want to. Simple tech more easily implemented by the simple application of magic.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:14 PM, wrote:

greytalk Digest 24 Nov 2009 04:14:43 -0000 Issue 1134
Topics (messages 13419 through 13422):
Re: Greyhawk Grumbler
13419 by: ukegreg
13420 by: Kent Goertzen
13421 by: Chris Anderson
13422 by: Tracy Johnson

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
greytalk-digest-subscribe@canonfire.com

To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:
greytalk-digest-unsubscribe@canonfire.com

To post to the list, e-mail:
greytalk@canonfire.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "ukegreg"
To: "'greytalk'"
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:50:27 -0800
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

If you want historical precedent for printing I recommend “woodblock prints”. You take a block of wood and carve it into a huge ink stamp basically. The effort it takes to create a set of hardwood plates for one ‘book’ is enormous though. Only major religions and/or countries would bother, and then only for super important books.

I agree with the others that an easily modifiable mass-produced newspaper is probably beyond the scope of the setting. Ideally technology should advance to prevent a setting from stagnating, but if you aren’t careful you might ruin the atmosphere. It’s also worth noting that there are some VERY smart villains in the campaign setting who would feel threatened by a printing press and try to subvert or destroy it immediately. If you’ve got PC’s running it they might get in serious trouble for printing the wrong thing. Imagine the party bard composing some super-motivational “Anti-Iuz” article and then spreading two hundred thousand copies throughout the Flanaess…

“Master, you need to have a look at this…”
“WHERE THE HELL DID THIS COME FROM!?”
“I guess there’s some guy in Greyhawk City making them.”
“HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOING ON!?”
“Couple of months I guess. He’s got this really talented bard doing the illustrations.”
“ILLUSTRATIONS!?”
“Yep. There’s a naked tri-fold drawing of your mom on page 17. Apparently Iggwilv made scantily-clad-sorceress of the month. They’re calling her ‘Miss Fireseek’. We’ve seen them pinned-up in every barracks in Furyo-”
“FIIIIIIND HIIIIIIIIIIIM!!!!”

From: Vest III, Robert W [mailto:rvest@ius.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:15 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

There is actually a canonical precedent for having printing presses in the Flanaess. See the Age of Worms backdrop article on Alhaster (Dungeon 131), which mentions an underground broadsheet in Alhaster called The Sinchaser Report.

From: CJ MacLean [mailto:icar@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 3:04 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

From: Wade Nolen [mailto:icarusatb@yahoo.com]

"I’m beginning to think that people aren’t listening to points being made, because all three of these have been refuted, over and over."

Me too. The kind of broadsheet designed to be read by thousands of people didn't happen until the mechanized printing press. Commoners didn't have access to newspapers until the 19th century, even now in unindustrialized nations newspapers can be hard to find because paper isn't a commodity that is easy to get or make without industrialization/motorization.

The examples that you keep pulling out to defend your arguments are edicts or proclamations that were read by an official and then posted in a public place, NOT given to every commoner to read. Even the later broadsheets were for merchants and the upper class not for lower caste society.

In game terms paper is costly, depending on where you look a single sheet is 1gp or more. To circulate a paper of 5000 copies (a reasonable amount given Greyhawks size) and sell it for a copper piece would mean a massive loss per issue. This cost doesn't reflect the cost of the machine/spell/scribes/time/ink/retailers that would also be needed to make the newspaper exist. No one could afford to take this loss, and no powerful businessman would lose this cash when they can hire a bard, beggar, crier, or rumormonger to get the information out at a fraction of the cost.

A newspaper doesn't make business sense, It would most likely be suppressed by the government, and while it may be historically possible to create a broadsheet, it isn't historically possible to have the circulation it would need to reach a debatably literate peasant population.

CJ

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Kent Goertzen
To:
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:46:49 -0600
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Time, effort (woodblock prints for example), and cost (paper really wouldn't be cheap in that period), would really prohibit it.

As far as a setting precedent, Forgotten Realms right before the switch to 4e Chapbooks filtering around Water deep weren't uncommon. But only those who were wealthy were really able to afford to produce them. Not sure what time period you've moved forward to. Living Greyhawk would probably be a 200-400 years behind where Forgotten Realms was in terms of technological advancement. Where FR is closer to 15th-17th century and GH closer to 13th-14th imo.

Kent Goertzen

From: ukegreg@yahoo.com

“Master, you need to have a look at this…”
“WHERE THE HELL DID THIS COME FROM!?”
“I guess there’s some guy in Greyhawk City making them.”
“HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOING ON!?”
“Couple of months I guess. He’s got this really talented bard doing the illustrations.”
“ILLUSTRATIONS!?”
“Yep. There’s a naked tri-fold drawing of your mom on page 17. Apparently Iggwilv made scantily-clad-sorceress of the month. They’re calling her ‘Miss Fireseek’. We’ve seen them pinned-up in every barracks in Furyo-”
“FIIIIIIND HIIIIIIIIIIIM!!!!”
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lol, :D

Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Chris Anderson
To: Kent Goertzen
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:34:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Paper costs are not a problem. They are based on historical western European paper costs... so you would think that they are accurate, but they're not.

Western Europeans lost access to cheap writing paper when the Mediterranean was blockaded by the Arabs in the 700's. Papyrus is extremely cheap to make, lasts a long time, and is able to be printed on. However, when Islam took away Egypt and northern Africa, and conquered Spain, western Europe lost access to papyrus.

As a result, they turned to vellum/parchment... which is a processed animal hide. Making vellum is expensive in time, materials, and skills. So much so, that vellum was traditionally reused by scraping it clean of ink.

Rag paper was a closely guarded secret that traveled from China. Those who knew how to make it forced you to pay dearly for it... they could do this because there was no cheaper alternative. Prices for rag paper were relatively low in the middle east, because it had to compete with papyrus. They were higher in western Europe because the only competition was vellum/parchment.

So, without the Arab blockade of the Mediterranean, prices for paper in western Europe would not have been high.

You can tell this because costs of paper in Roman times were low... because trade flowed freely to Egypt. However, costs of paper in Italy during the middle ages was high, because there was no trade to Egypt.

Now, in Greyhawk, there is no Arab blockade. Trade flows freely (with some local exceptions). There is no need for high paper prices due to artificial shortages.

Woodblocks are not costly to make compared to copyists, and there is a really, really good reason to use them instead of copyists: reducing mistakes.

Copyists produced many grammar and subject matter mistakes due to the process. During Carolingian times, this was such a problem that new fonts, grammar, and punctuation were introduced in an effort to reduce copyist mistakes.

Woodblocks, once they're correct, are perfect time and again until the wood is pressed down over time and it has to be created again.

Now for rapidly changing news, I would agree that carving a woodblock over the course of a day to tell the day's news won't happen. But for news that needs to be reproduced exactly, or for holy books, or for items which must not have mistakes, it's a perfect solution.

-- Chris

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Kent Goertzen wrote:

Time, effort (woodblock prints for example), and cost (paper really wouldn't be cheap in that period), would really prohibit it.

As far as a setting precedent, Forgotten Realms right before the switch to 4e Chapbooks filtering around Water deep weren't uncommon. But only those who were wealthy were really able to afford to produce them. Not sure what time period you've moved forward to. Living Greyhawk would probably be a 200-400 years behind where Forgotten Realms was in terms of technological advancement. Where FR is closer to 15th-17th century and GH closer to 13th-14th imo.

Kent Goertzen

From: ukegreg@yahoo.com

“Master, you need to have a look at this…”
“WHERE THE HELL DID THIS COME FROM!?”
“I guess there’s some guy in Greyhawk City making them.”
“HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOING ON!?”
“Couple of months I guess. He’s got this really talented bard doing the illustrations.”
“ILLUSTRATIONS!?”
“Yep. There’s a naked tri-fold drawing of your mom on page 17. Apparently Iggwilv made scantily-clad-sorceress of the month. They’re calling her ‘Miss Fireseek’. We’ve seen them pinned-up in every barracks in Furyo-”
“FIIIIIIND HIIIIIIIIIIIM!!!!”

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lol, :D

Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tracy Johnson
To: greytalk list
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:38:30 -0500
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler
On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 17:34 -0800, Chris Anderson wrote:
> Paper costs are not a problem. They are based on historical western
> European paper costs... so you would think that they are accurate, but
> they're not.
>

I don't think it matters as far as a Fantasy setting is concerned. The
overuse of magic bypassed the use of paper. I compare this to the
ubiquitous rise of today's Internet. Because of it, the traditional
newspaper is failing, because they cannot find a business model that
will support paper. (Similar to game companies that publish paper are
going under.)

Much in the same way, the all-pervasive use of scrying, seeking,
clairvoyant, clairaudience type of magic doesn't not allow a newspaper
business model to develop, because the opportunity was bypassed.
Besides, there are easier ways to find news in Greyhawk!

As was noticed on by an intern looking over the shoulder of Otiluke in
standing before one of the numerous Palantir's at the Greyhawk school of
magic library:







...

--
BT
Tracy Johnson
Old telnet games at 198.212.189.111

NNNN

Re: Greyhawk Grumbler

Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler
Monday, November 16, 2009 10:37 AM
From: "Chris Anderson"
To: "Mark Carscadden" Cc: "greytalk"

Just so we're clear... the first printing presses were simply weights pressing wood block type down onto paper. I think that's well within Greyhawk's technical base.

Later on, the screw was introduced... so that you could screw a flat plate down against the woodblock, against the paper.

-- Chris

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Mark Carscadden wrote:

I think a printing press is something that would be a better fit in the FR setting, IMO. Gygax would have certainly at least briefly mentioned something as significant as a printing press if it existed in his setting. But as always, that's the way it will be in MY Greyhawk campaign...
----- Original Message -----
From: Wade Nolen
To: 'greytalk'
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Insisting that the print run of the Grumbler is more than the population of the Free City of Greyhawk itself is the utmost sheer folly.

And beyond that … the “single guy” is doing the same thing in CoGH … no one said that these things are everywhere. No one said that there are more than just the Grumbler (although we know that there are two.) This is a localized thing, specific to Greyhawk City, and what’s more, there’s nothing (of which I am aware, other than the author’s post-script here) that it’s not wood-block printing, or something other than the “mechanized” stuff that you insist on. There were printing presses long before Industrialization or the Mechanized era.

Wade K. Nolen
aka "Icarus "

I'm off to gallivant among the clouds!
" ... and he did fly, and he was seen on the wings of the wind."

From: CJ MacLean [mailto:icar@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:57 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I'm not talking about a single guy with bits of clay producing 20 copies of something. I am talking about the level of mechanization society has to have for a press run of 5000-30,000 (or more).

From: Vest III, Robert W [mailto:rvest@ius.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:15 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

There is actually a canonical precedent for having printing presses in the Flanaess. See the Age of Worms backdrop article on Alhaster (Dungeon 131), which mentions an underground broadsheet in Alhaster called The Sinchaser Report.

Re: Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)
Friday, November 13, 2009 12:20 PM
From: "CJ MacLean"
Add sender to Contacts
To: "'greytalk'"

I am pretty sure that newspapers weren't used until the 17th century, does this fit well with the material previously presented?

The number of scribes it would take to produce this material versus the cost of the paper 1cp/issue and the cost of a scribe is 15gp/month is prohibitive. The cost of the paper (papyrus et. al) per sheet is more than the 1cp price of the paper. The cost of using magical spells to do this is also prohibitive versus the cost of a paper. No one would be able to afford a paper if it were created using the rules of any version of D&D.

Apart from these obvious complaints. The idea of printing presses has never been shown in any published material despite some great detail of Greyhawks locations.

CJ

From: kruch7@cox.net [mailto:kruch7@cox.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:49 AM
To: greytalk
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

What do you mean previously written, I see nothing previously written that says Greyhawk wouldn't have a new paper, and I know of no evidence of an army of bards roaming the city either as for town criers we do know they are in the city. If there is a reference some where that states there no possibility of a news sheet with all the scribes they have and magic users I will believe you. have to reread my gord the rogue books and see if there is a reference in them

Ken
Gygax is to Gaming What Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil then you
WWBYD What would Brigham Young do

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:40 PM, CJ MacLean wrote:
I am sure some people have loads of horseless carriages, gun powder, and teenage mutant ninja turtles, it doesn't mean that it fits with what has previously been written. As I said I am not commenting on the ideas presented, only in the concept of a newspaper in the world of Greyhawk.

Did you have something you wanted to add to this topic?

CJ

From: kruch7@cox.net [mailto:kruch7@cox.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:44 AM
To: greytalk
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

every one has their own vision of greyhawk city, even Gary imagined it different them most run it

Gygax is to Gaming What Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil then you
WWBYD What would Brigham Young do

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:36 AM, CJ MacLean wrote:
There are many reasons why they shouldn't be canon, and none of them have to do with the content. The Grumbler is whimsical and kind of cute but I have issues with the concept. The city of Greyhawk shouldn't have printing presses, or armies of scribes, or magical devices to mass produce newspapers. The idea of a newspaper is a way to get information to players in the RPGA but is not legitimate for a medieval fantasy setting. Town criers, bellmen, bards or bulletin board postings are more in keeping with the setting.

While a good portion of the city is literate a larger portion of it is not. Why can't the Greyhawk Grumblers be a group of bards? a printing press sets a bad precedent.

CJ

From: Samuel Weiss [mailto:samwise1@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 1:00 PM
To: GREYTALK List
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

>Those Greyhawk grumblers aren't for real (canon) are they?<

Why wouldn't they be?

Greyhawk parallels to real world deities

Date sent: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:26:56 EDT
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Rasgon
Subject: [GREYTALK] Greyhawk parallels to real world deities
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Samwise asked, a week or so ago, what real world gods we associated with the gods of the flanaess. Also, Tal Meta complained that the gods of greyhawk lacked a mythology of their own. Someone else wanted more detail on the lesser gods. For them and whoever else is interested, here's a partial list of gods I associate with various greyhawk divinities. This list is just for inspiration in characterizing and writing about the deities. In some cases, the god will not be a perfect match.
Beory: Gaea and Rhea (greek), Grandmother Earth (amerindian), Hathor (Egypt)
Boccob: Thoth (Egypt), Hermes Tresmagistus (Catholic and esoteric), Odin (norse), Math Mathonwy (welsh)
Corellon Laerthan: Siva and Prajapati (indian), Zurvan (persian), Set (egypt)
Gruumsh: Horus (egypt), Tezcatlipoca (aztec)
Incabulos: Rudra, Chal and Hara (Indian), Plague & Pestilence (christian 4 horsemen)
Istus: Orlog and Norns (norse), three Fates (greek)
Nerull: Hades (greek), Ahriman (persian), Ghede (Haitian), Death (Medieval Europe), Arawn (welsh), Nergal (Babylonian)
Pelor: Asclepius and Helios (greek), Ormahzd (persian), Sun (Amerindian), Diancecht (celtic)
Rao: Osiris (egypt), Krishna (Indian), Great Spirit and Hiawatha (Amerindian)
Celestian: Bhuvanesvari (Indian), Akasagarbha (buddhist), Valevalenan (Samoan), Hermes (greek), Gabriel (Catholic), Wah-Kan-tah (Quapaw)
Cyndor: Coqui Zee (Zapotec), Leta Aquinchino (southern Zapotec), Braham (Indian)
Ehlonna: Artemis (greek), Epona (celtic), Ki (Sumerian)
Erythnul: Phobos, Typhoeus and Deimos (greek), Agni (Indian)
Fharlanghn: Mercury (Roman), Anthony of Padua, Christopher, Nicholas of Myra, Raphael and Three Magi (Catholic saints of travel)
Heironeous: Mithras (Roman), Tyr (norse), Lancelot (arthurian), St. George (catholic)
Hextor: Ares (greek), the Spanish Inquisition, Joseph Stalin, Huitzilopochtli (aztec)
Kord: Heracles (greek), Thor (norse)
Lendor: Chronos (greek), Methuselah (hebrew)
Obad-Hai: Sylvanus (gaulish), Attis (greek), Osiris (Egyptian), GreatSpirit(amerindian)
Olidammara: Dionysus and Hermes (greek), Vitus, Amand and Valentine (catholic)
Pholtus: Apollo (greek), Mithras (Roman), Anu (babylonian)
Procan: Oceanus and Proteus (greek), Nun (egypt), Apsu (babylonian), Manannan Mac Lir (celtic), Aegir (norse), St Brendan, Christopher & Elmo (catholic)
Ralishaz: Coyote (amerindian), Loki (norse)
St Cuthbert: Forseti (norse), Alphonsus Liguori (catholic)
Tharizdun: Apep (Egypt), Fenris Wolf (Norse), Nyarlothotep (lovecraft)
Trithereon: Horus (egypt), Willian Tell (swiss), William Wallace (scottish)
Ulaa: Fuji (japan), Delphi (greek)
Wee Jas: Hecate (greek)
Zilchus: Francis of Assisi and Nicholas of Myra (catholic), Pluton (greek)
Atroa: Flora (Roman)
Beltar: Hel (norse), Ereshkigal (babylonian), Lilith (hebrew), Coatlique (aztec), the Devil's Dam (medieval Europe), other chthonic forms of the Great Goddess
Berei: Hesta and Demeter (greek)
Bleredd: Ba (egypt), Ancanco (peru), Hephesteus (greek), Wayland (norse)
Bralm: anyone know the patron saint of beekeepers? And Isadore (catholic)
Delleb: Thomas Aquinas (catholic)
Fortubo: St Bernard of Mountjoux (catholic)
Llerg: Thor (norse), Enkidu (sumerian)
Velnius: Aeolus (greek), El (semitic)
I'm bored, so I'll just do a couple more...
Mayaheine: Athene (greek), Joan of Arc (catholic)
Wastri: the Demiurge (gnostic), Enki (sumerian), Dagon (Canaan)

'kay. I'm done. Any questions?

Ptolomey, Copernicus and the nomisnalist descriptions of the solar system [NGC]

Subject: [GREYTALK] Ptolomey, Copernicus and the nomisnalist descriptions of
the solar system [NGC]
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:31:27 +0200
From: Matthias Sant'Ana
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Hi all,

I know this is NGC, but I'd like to disagree with Jay Hafner in his "copernican revolution" argument, repeated below:

>I remember learning how _complicated_ the equations were for figuring out the Ptolemeic system of the universe (the earth is the center and the _stars_
>_and_ planets revolve around it). The system was wrong and completely
>simplified when Copernicus let the truth out... Wasn't he flamed at the
>stake from the 'church' too?


There is no doubt how difficult it was to describe the solar system and it's
irregularities with the eliptic or circular orbits that composed the ptolemaic (sp) model. The system was wrong, as was Copernicus' BTW, but it was by far a more elegant model (mathematically less complex...) and it gave out the same general mechanical results from a earth-centered perspective. If he wanted to determine where mars would be in a certain moment, he could do that as well as any other system, including Copernicus'.

The fact is that these men were nominalists. They believed that if god could do anything, it was not very wrong to create imaginary models that could simplify calculus, no matter how absurd they might be in a metaphysical sense (in those days) or in a strictly scientific astronomy (in our days). They were not concerned with describing reality in itself, but only with determining precisely the position of stars as regards our point-of-view. They were not doing choices on metaphysics, but on geometry and mathematics, and not because they opposed the churches totalitarian opinions about the universe, which they in fact endorsed, since they accepted that God could establish a universe under whichever laws He chose.

Copernicus was condemned, as is frequently the case when one wants to persecute a certain ideology, because of an imputed ideology. The church said he held a certain view, despite the fact that he might not have defended that view at all. But then again this is just guessing, since the records of his judgement are still held in secrecy by the vatican (they were supposed to be disclosed soon, though...). I think it was Burke (don't recall his first name now..., but he's an historian of science who had privileged access to church archives in the Gregorian Institute at Rome) who
said that it was equally probable that he was condemned because certain of his thesis in physics implied that the miracle of transubstanciation (sp) of bread in to the body of the Christ during eucharistics could not occur. That was a dogma much dearer to the church than the relative position of the stars and planets... This is just to say that what we really know about Copernicus, and his trial, is very much tainted by revisionary interpretation of the rennaissance and posterior periods, where everything held to be true by the Church should be considered nonsense and everything held to be true by the newly emancipated commercial aristocracy is true...

That's all I had to say. Just for the record, I agree otherwise with everything Mr. Jay Hafner said about AD&D. I'm quite traditionalist myself, and stick mostly to the rules, but one issue that was never really adressed by the AD&D system was the distinction between things that are innate because of culture, and those that are racially or biologically innate. It's easier to understand why dwarves are more resistant to magic because of their constitution than understanding why elves, even if they are not proficient with a sword or bow, get a +1 on it... it's the same question with armor wearing elven F/MU... and so on...

Flames or comments?

Matthias.

Elected Nobles

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 12:37PM PST
From: AOL Ojerasmus Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] Elected Nobles

<< Consider the 'Holy Roman Empire', will you?

What about the Holy Roman Empire?
>>>

It was basically a 'hereditary' elected monarchy. A varying number of nobles and clergymen were electors who got to chose the next emperor (Between 5 and 8 I believe). Some of those electors were hereditary positions and some were granted by either the emperor or pope. Which of course gave the sitting ruler a huge influence on his successor especially as it was sometimes possible to do the electing while he was still alive (called I believe the King of the Romans and usually a son or cadet member of the ruling house).

While it was nominally an elected position it eventually settled into a defacto hereditary Habsburg monarchy due to the emperors ability to create and fill titles and the dependence of the electors on Imperial military and fiscal aid.

In the early middle ages there would often be outsiders put forward by one power group or other as candidates but over time I believe uncontested elections became common. The threat of putting up a candidate was often enough to win concessions for the electors in the later years of an emperors rule and the election during the lifetime of the previous encumbent meant that promises were usually stuck to.

While we are on the subject all nobles of the empire above Knight rank were known as princes of the empire similar to the Aerdian model used in Ivid. Their feifdom would have a seperate designation (dukedom, county whatever) but all the nobles would also be able to call himself a prince of the empire (which also gained some voting rights on seperate issues but not election).

It probably came from the fact that the Empire was nominally at least a confederation of petty states with the Emperor starting off as a position intended to work for their security against external threats rather than as a day to day ruler. All of the states ruling families felt that they were monarchs within their own states and viewed the Emperor as their elected servant rather than a true feudal overlord. Again as in all such matters there were huge differences between what happened in practice especially when the Habsburgs made the position almost hereditary and what the princes clung to as the traditions and laws of the realm. As the name suggests they considered themselves the succesors to the Romans and classical ideas such the senate or even democracy were highly thought of even if their practice was a far cry from what we consider democracy.

Elected monarchies were actually reasonably common in central Europe, Poland was an elected monarchy for a while and I think Hungary also had periods of elected rule. The Pope was of course elected and was an important secular ruler. With limited centralisation election was often the only way to come to a decision no one person had enough power to dictate, when power became more centralised in the late middle ages/early modern period the elections for royalty and for the day to day running of countries tended to give way.

When a monarch often depended on taxes or armed levies from his nobility they often wanted concessions and some form of vote was a nice way of showing what was what in the confused politics of Germany. Election of some form was also an option in times of a disputed succession but again it was a far cry from democracy.

I agree that modern democracy features too heavily in RPGs and should be eliminated but the idea of all powerful royal houses also features too heavily for my liking. The idea of divine right of kings and of central authority came to the fore nearer the early modern period than the period that Greyhawk seems to evoke. Kings needed the support of their nobilities and a good way of winning it was to let them in on the decison making process either in the form of councils or parliaments or often in continental europe by promising them a say over the succession. It still resulted in the same families ruling countries but they had to pay for votes to ensure it.

As for the Duchy, presumably it kept the name it had under Keoland, going back to the HRE there were plenty of Counties whose rulers felt they were supreme within their own boundaries and felt no need to inflate their titles.

All of the above was from memory, apologies if any errors slipped in.

Owen Erasmus

Re: Sander's comments on the Duchy of Ulek

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 03:13AM PST
From: sander Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Sander's comments on the Duchy of Ulek

> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:53:56 PST
> From: Immaculate Image
> Subject: Sander's comments on the Duchy of Ulek

> S: And the rest of the writeup continues to totally ignore both foodstuffs and cloth, even though these are listed as resources and should thus be important.
>
> II: Good point. I should address the role of those resources in the Culture section. Anybody want in on that?

ME! ME! ME!

I have a lot of info (mostly hardcopy paper form) on Uleks & foodstuffs. I'll start posting it.

> S:Is there an offical view of Grenowen or even a write-up?
>
> II: None that I know of. That was written by Steve, and our Triad will have to develop him. Perhaps I have painted him as an idyllic ruler, as that's my impression of him, but I'm sure we'll come up with some
> character quirks to make him unique.
>
> "The opening of neighboring Celene proved prosperous...."
>
> S: Now that the GHW are over and Celene is not so open, what about the trade? As such a trade would also bring additional wealth into not only the Duchy of Ulek but also Celene, the merchants and anybody
> connected to them are going to be grumbling if it has stopped entirely, and would probably create a fair bit of smuggling. If it continues but is limited by say requiring a special royal permit or somesuch, it would create some smuggling and quite a bit of intrigue.
>
> Which are IMHO excellent story leads.
>
> II: Good point. I think the relations between the Duchy and Celene are still very good, though straining. Trade between the two is limited I think, and although smuggling might exist, anybody doing such things in Yolande's turf is taking their life into their hands. This also depends
> on how easy and navigable the Lortmils are. I know it's not the Crystalmists and humanoids are few relative to the Pomarj, but it's not a trip to the store. Taras' point about Celene Pass also complicates
> this trade issue.

Oh, definately. I never implied it would be easy. The smugglers could easily have their own routes (some smuggling may have been going on for centuries, even when Celene was closed), the smugglers can make use of magic and use subterran passages, etc.

[snip]

> "..dwarven clan leaders are said to be as rich as princes, and are approached by emissaries from Furyondy and even Nyrond for aid.
> Dwarves are not, however, susceptible to such overtures."
>
> S: Hmm... Not listed above in resources.
>
> II: that's because the dwarves have the gold, not the Duchy :)

The unallied dwarves should be discussed separately. Under a big entry of Lortmils or somesuch. Similar forany others that live in there or nearby (gnomes of Kron Hills, inhabitants of the Lorridges, etc.)

There is bound to be quite a lot of 'vagabonds'.

> "Two ancient woodlands..."
>
> S: Somebody should work on those.
>
> II: In what regard? Like developing similar to the level of detail of the Gnarley Forest present in the Campaign Guide in FtA? More importantly, ARE YOU VOLUNTEERING?

I rather meant the fairy creatures than the whole forests.

> S: [snip - roads, got to check it out on a map]
>
> II: Don't bother because they're not there. Maybe some day they'll be canon. Until then, you'll just have to look at the Darlene Map and envision them.

That's what I meant.

[snip]

>"Although the Duchy is a relatively safe land, there are the odd encounters with dangerous life-forms...."
>
> S:Way too many humanoids imho, especially considering the population toll of none. Sounds a lot more like 'small numbers of just about any small humanoid race can be occasionally be found'.
>
> II: Those little races are like roaches. They just look for some nook and cranny. When it says no humanoids I think of the bigger and more organized races considering the context of the reference. Things like orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, trolls, ogres and giants.

Hmm... could well be. But such enclaves would have to be quite a bit more oriented towards hunting, gathering and agriculture than usually. Possibly also tending a bit more towards neutral.

> S: Brown bears are omnivores. Cougars would probably live in the lortmils (but seeing as bears and lions live in mountainous areas as well - consider their former populations in italy, greece and spain) I'm not sure if there would be a niche for cougars. And I would definately leave
> coyottes out.
>
> II: You don't see a role for Coyotes? I was hesitant in thinking whether the wildlife of the Duchy would be more like Africa. I mean Lions must be somewhere in the Sheldomar, given Keoland's (and Sterich's)coat of arms.

Consider the coat of arms of various european countries. Take for example the British lion and unicorn 8-)

Coyottes afaik also don't live in so warm climates (do they live in Florida?) and afaik usually not where there are wolves.

I would still propose medierannean rather than africa for most of the duchy.

> S: This all leaves out the various neutral and good dragons. Considering the whole galore of those that exist...
>
> II: Give me an example of any which might live in the Duchy. I took those (Metallic and Gem)into consideration, and with the exception of Golds perhaps, the terrain just isn't suitable.

Let's see - Amethyst and Mist are almost certain, there may be could dragons up there in the Lortmils (esp. as there already are the Avariel), the mercury dragons are also a possibility.

We know that there is a lot of rain (mostly) and possibly also snowfall in these parts of the Lortmils. We know because there are the Lort and Kewl Rivers. There would also be lots of small streams that eventually merge with these (or don't). In the highlands (and maybe also the Lortmils) there are bound to be many small lakes at the bottom of valleys from which barely all water that gets into it in the rainier seasons manages to escape. Consider that canyons are mentioned in the Lortmils and these come to be due to running water. There could easily also be plenty of waterfalls.

[snip]

> Crocodiles, weather and Florida.

The rivers and tributaries coming from the mountains would be somewhat cooler, also cold air would come from the mountains. And AFAIK there are alligators not crocodiles in Florida. The Duchy is not near the sea, so warm sea-air doesn't come into it.

[snip]

> S: Well, this is a clear case of size-chauvinism.
>
> II: Is that sarcasm? :)

Partially. Invariantly, teh big races find the little ones to be a nuissance, if not worse.

> S: Here is a contradiction. Shouldn't the elven be droped from in front of the nobility? Otherwise Waybury and the gnomes and halflings and humans would have no political influence.

> II: Ahh, but they really don't. Using Steve's writeup, one must be an elf or half elf to be a noble. This does not conflict with saying that Grenowen isn't wise enough to realize that there are valuable people of
> other races. It's a balancing act. Cater to the nobles' self-importance, but keep the "little people" happy. Waybury is a seat of human power because the elves don't have the same grip on it IMO, as they do in
> Tringlee.
>
> S: As here is just nobility, not specificly elven nobility the previous paragraphs should be corrected.
>
> II: In the context of the Duchy, nobility and elven nobility are interchangeable.

I din't notice it being explicitly decleared that being noble meant being elven. So I would really like to contest that part:
a) the gnomes would have their own nobles.
b) the human settlers would have their own nobles. The human tribes that settled there are very unlikely to have done so if they were forced to submit to the power of the elves upon doing so. The leaders would just have gone elsewhere.

There may not be all that many of them compared to the elven ones, but they would exist.

Yet again - if the representatives of the towns and non-elven nobles are not called they have no political influence - or very little of it.

> S: How is the succession of the Duke handled?
>
> II: oohhh..it's a great mystery, since it's never happened!

But it is bound to be agreed on.

> S:The Duchy has quite a lot of gnomes in it's lands. Why not expand and (peacefully) get the dwarves to join in? Indeed, how much are the dwarves concerned who considers the surface area their own?
>
> II: You think you can get those rich and greedy dwarves to submit to an elven Duke? Not likely. Since the surface area is mostly mountainous, it's not likely anybody's gonna build a city on the surface of the
> Lortmils any time soon. It's a matter of respecting each others boundaries, and mutual hate for the bozos to the SE.

It's not clear how much anybody in the Duchy is really submitting to the Duke. The dwarves would rather be invited to take part in the gatherings of the nobles 8-)

> S:Also a good reason to prod the Lortmils dwarves to join the Duchy.
> Especially as the Duchy is providing help to other dwarves and is clearly friendly to various races.
>
> II: The political structure of the Dwarves is a different matter. I'm still trying to get a hold of Sobhrach to use his Lortmils article, which I'd like to do some modifications to. The dwarves of the Lortmils
> most likely feel closest to Prince Corond of Ulek anyway.

But the Prince is relatively far away. Also, the Prince is bound to be a lot more greedy (see above for dwarves and greed) and have a lot more clearer view of what could be found in the coffers of the Dwarves.

[snip]

> S: So the immigrants are mostly settling in and around Waybury? And there are significant amounts of them? Why isn't immigration documented anywhere?
>
> II: Well the elven nobility would be damned if all those vagabonds settle in Tringlee. There are no where near the amounts that have
There is the possibility of having them petition the lords on whose local land they want to settle as farmers, etc. A lot of the refugees would be more suited to country life that city life, wouldn't they? There would be lots of problems if they all settled in Waybury.

> immigrated to Keoland and the Gran March, but there's quite a few IMO.
> And documented where? A canon resource?

In whatever writeup is finally produced?

> S:Python???
>
> II: AHAH! I have flushed you out! Phyton's a suel power of natural beauty...something the Duchy has a lot of (unlike our garbage infested swamp dwellers to the east.. a growing joke between me and the SE1 Triad.)

You got me there. I was thinking of another god.

Sander

There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - these are all just illusions.

Re: The Educated Flanaess (still long)

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:04:54 GMT
From: Paul Looby
Subject: Re: The Educated Flanaess (still long)

>Paul wrote that:
> >>> In Rel Astra certainly - Old Oeridian rules the roost, though in places
>like Eastfair or Rel Deven, Common has more of a foothold <<<
>So does Drax the Invulnerable only speak Old Oeridian?

Probably yes - but Common as well. I was referring more to the Colleges. My impression of the city at large is that the people speak both Common and Old Oeridian - but some might take a very French attitude to Common speakers - refusing to speak it to them, though they know full well how to.

>Is the "decadence" of Eastfair represented in its using Common for scholarly work?

From a stuffy old Rel Astran scholar's point of view, yes - amongst other things....

>Why Rel Deven as a progressive place? With a Cranden ruler, I wonder if Rel Deven might be more traditional than any other Aerdian city?

This is possible - but its had to deal with more of the ups and downs of Aerdi history directly than Rel Astra. As with the Cranden nobles this probably led to a fracturing of the scholarly community - those which retreated into the past and traditions, and those which embraced the changes and adapted. Rel Astra too has inputs of new thoughts and ideas - though its port and trade - and it it these new ideas and the need to change which drive the younger scholars there in their bid to over turn the dusty morter-boards and capes at the top, IMO

>So Trinity was rebuilt at least once between 1592 and the 1700s.

Or was rehoused on the same site at least - and the older buildings were subsequently demolished and built upon. I don't recall any records of the College being sacked during upheavals such as the rebellion in 1641, Cromwell's devestations in the late 1640's or in the Williamite-Jacobite wars of the 1690's - which is not to say such did not occuer. (Trinity is my alma mater btw, if you hadn't already guessed). :)

>However, I see the other buildings as simply being purchased over the centuries as Grey College grew to need more space. In contrast the School of Clerkship was a planned campus. Any flaws with this development?

Seems plausible.

>Paul wrote:
> >>> Rauxes probably had or still has extensive lore in the remains of its libraries and vaults. And let's not forget Pontylver and Mentrey. <<<

>I _have_ forgotten Pontlyver. What is it noteworthy for?

Ivid the Undying mentions that it was a city known for its sages, scholars and learning before it went up in flames during the madness of the Wars.

>Yet Fiend-Sage aside, I consider Rel Astra more of a mercantile place than a city of learning. Will the details for its rennaissance be explicated please?

It is now and probably always will be - but in its heyday it was not only for a time the capital of Aerdy, but also the gateway of the Great Kingdom at its height to the Solnor, Hepmonaland and the Azure Sea (until later competition from the Nyrondese, Almorian and South Province ports). At that time its wealth and drive also fueled as a spin off its scholastic achievements. As the Great Kingdom declined, and the Aerdi turned inwards concerned with internal turmoils, thought stagnated. Money became more important than knowledge to the people of Rel Astra as it was a more tangible asset in troubled times. This petty small mindedness also infected the colleges - and so bred the current dusty order - who refuse to embrace change and cling to old, certain, but ultimately stagnant ways.

Rel Astra's sagely rennaissance is only just beginning (if it has the chance continue is another question). In the last decades of the Great Kingdom as was, Rel Astra was already slowly drifting from the orbit of Rauxes. The city would have to fend for itself - no longer be a satellite, but be the great city it is. This attitude has bloomed since the wars and has infected the younger scholars, who take an interst not only in the halcyon days of Rel Astran scholarship, but in the means by this glorious end was achieved - by looking outward at the world.

>Eastfair is the largest city of Northern Aerdy, so having colleges there works well.

One maybe two at most - dominated by the Hextorites.

>Okay so Radigast City is a proposed Rennaissance Italy, and Belissica gains the nickname Medici? ;) Again I suggest throwing some Eleanor of Aquitaine into that Countess!

Well - I'm not sure about a Rennaissance, entailing all the historical baggage that that word brings with it, but certainly the large trade cities of the Nyr Dyv have not only wealth, and exposure to diverse cultures, influances and ideas, but also have become the home to large numbers of refugees from the Wars. This has many parallels with the Italian city states of around the 14th and 15th centuries. The Nyr Dyv cities, like the Italian cities, though to a somewhat lesser extent, are also the heirs to a proud(ish) Imperial cultural past (before it turned to complete decandence and evil) - that of the Great Kingdom, which once encompassed them all. So yes, I see, Radigast, Dyvers, Greyhawk, and Leukish to an extent as a
hotbed for new ideas in the Central Flanaess. Rel Astra too may have its chance if the hints at exploration from its port and by the Sea Barons to Hepmonaland and beyond are brought to fruition.

>And "skeptics" in Nellix, tsk, tsk. My but this Flanaess has been rather educated all along. "But they wear _pants_!" :P

Some of them have been educated - yes. Most aren't. I'd see the average Ekbirian on the street having a greater appreciation of the world and learning than your average person in Radigast or Chendl or Dyvers.

>Regarding Velunan attitudes, I too like the idea of prejudiced, righteous, and "superior" Velunan attitudes. Whereas the Ketites would be considered barbarians, the Furyondians (and Bisselites) are treated as children, and the Keolanders and Verboboncians are contemptible. However I wouldn't want
>to overdo it. Rao is not Pholtus, after all.

Hmm.. that might be a bit harsh - remember the Velunese and the Furyondians were almost fellow country men for a while. I think the Velunese would have sympathy for the Bisselites - who've had to put up with not only the Ketites, but the Keoish. The Keoish might be regarded with a degree of suspicion, given their past (the Short War), or exasperation (given their dithering while nations fell) - but generally perhaps as good, if arrogant, people with wrong priorities (if only they were more like us - which ironically is probably exactly what the Keoish think of the Velunese).

>To my knowledge there is close to nothing published regarding Daern.
>However, Irongate does seem centrally enough located to be her historical home base. I want Daern's symbol to be chiseled onto the Velunan bridges of Caronis and the old Ritensa Bridge as well as several cities within the South Province and Darmen Lands of old.

So that's Irongate, southern Aerdy, Furyondy, Veluna and perhaps the matematical schools of the West. hmm..quite a journey - and an intersting tale no doubt.

>I can relate that Elayne Mystica was overheard at a dinner party explaining something that she saw in a Daern sketchbook. It was something about a way for ships to cross the isthmus between the southern Vast Swamp where it meets Spine Ridge. Completely fantatical and impractical, of course, but such a route would render the SB Tilva Strait blockade useless . . .

Bah - probably some nonsense about digging a path through a mountain or some such. It is said that the good lady was partial to Dwur drinking establishments (a rumour, you understand) and Dwur spirits. Cynics have cited this as the inspiration for some of her wilder flights of fantasy. :P

>Regarding troubadours, it seems like Countess Belissica is only a latter day saint when compared with the "dimming memory of the noonlight of Loriaelor!"
>Alas for Nevondeer! ::raises chalice::

For sure much of the lore that yet remained of that great realm was surely lost in the sack of Nevondeer. Nonetheless, the echo of its songs linger yet in the streets of Radigast and Trigol, Brotton and Midmeadow, Borneven and Rel Mord, lilting from the lips of poor Tenha bards singing for coppers. Though beauty fades, the embers glow long among the ashes.

paul

Re: Zip and ...Tudor?

Date sent: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:06:30 -0400
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Eric Tomasi
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Zip and ...Tudor?
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

At 05:21 PM 9/18/97 CST, you wrote:
>Hello again.

>On a not entirely unrelated matter, Gary Gygax mentioned earlier
>today that he envisioned the architecture of Greyhawk City as
>resembling the styles from our world's 15th-17th centuries. With
>indoor plumbing no less! I was shocked. This is in relation to a
>game where characters are routinely denied compasses and firearms
>that were around in the 13th century. I just can't deal with that
>much variation from our world's technological progress. In fact, I
>had just recently been thinking that my 15th century focus for
>GREYHAWK was too far-fetched and I had better tone it down to the
>14th century!
>Scott “Volstagg” Casper

I think you might be too tied into european architectual and technological process. You have to understand, most of the limited progress of technology during the middle ages could be attributed to the presence of a monolithic religion which did in no way encourage that sort of thing. Greyhawk doesn't have that.

Also, you can model greyhawk in some ways as a european/mediterranean model.

1. The Invoked Devastation as a the Fall of the Roman Empire.
2. The rise & fall of the great Kingdom as middle ages
3. before and after the Greytalk wars and the early rennaissance.

Of course this is overly simplistic because other cultures were not drastically effected by the invoked devastation (ie, demihumans). Also because the world has Magi, some things are simply irrevalent. Wizards can do most things by magic so why develop the technology.

But I digress....

Architecture styles aren't necessarily dependent upon technological progress, mearly upon cultural influences. Also, remember that Greeks and Romans had indoor plumbing. The early version of the pump, the archimedes screw, was developed in greece around ~1500BCE (I think, don't quote me on this). Because this was lost to europeans does not mean it was lost during the invoked devastation. It is just so expensive that only the wealthiest have it.

Firearms are a special case. I think it takes some of the “magic” out of the game when firearms are added. It may be irrational, but that's the way I feel. I suppose you could justify it by saying that only wizards would discover smoke powder, and they would have no interest in promoting its use. Quite the opposite actually.
Eric Tomasi
etomasi@gator.net
“It's ok to make a deal with the Devil...as long as you work freelance.”

Re: The Educated Flanaess (still long)

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:13:24 -0800
From: Marc Tizoc Gonzalez
Subject: Re: The Educated Flanaess (still long)

Regarding Grey College and the School of Clerkship (maybe we can change this name?), in staring at that illustration map some more, it seems that only the School has a planned campus. Grey College is instead several large multi-story buildings on either side of University Street. In fact the School looks almost castle-like with only a single entrance (don't let those students get away!). This detail supports Grey College being older than the School; perhaps the School was created just after (and by) those sages that Paul postulates fled from the "rebel provinces," during the decade 253-263CY? I like the idea that some of these sages represent members of the clergy of Delleb who fled for fear/hatred/disgust at Rao imperialism of scholarship, and it makes particular sense for Dellebians (Paul's word) to found the School of Clerkship. :)

Thus Paul is correct in stating that:
>>> these sages brought with them the ideal of the campus - a memory of the
religious cloisters of the west. <<<

I too dislike being overly CoG-centric, but it is also perversely fun to place things like the Empire of Vecna right where Nerof Gasgal now sleeps. :P

Regarding Persian or Arabic universities, I know _nada_. Maybe that history buff, Damon or the master of the classics, Mark Kelly, or Mr. Civilized Bakluna himself, Wayne can help us out? ;)

Paul wrote that:
>>> In Rel Astra certainly - Old Oeridian rules the roost, though in places
like Eastfair or Rel Deven, Common has more of a foothold <<<

So does Drax the Invulnerable only speak Old Oeridian? Is the "decadence" of Eastfair represented in its using Common for scholarly work? Why Rel Deven as a progressive place? With a Cranden ruler, I wonder if Rel Deven might be more traditional than any other Aerdian city?

So Trinity was rebuilt at least once between 1592 and the 1700s. Can anyone else tell us about more famous universities, maybe an _alma mater_? I guess that Grey College was never completely rebuilt/renovated since only three hundred years have passed since its speculative founding (circa 250CY), and the CoG has not been invaded since this time; similarly the fires have not been in Clerkburg. Likely Grey College began in a smaller building at the site of its current main building. This may have been demolished and the larger structure made during the construction of the School of Clerkship. With more funds raised (from the _creme_ of the established families, the renewed Grey College was completed earlier, so its distinction (of being the oldest and most prestigious university in the CoG) is preserved. However, I see the other buildings as simply being purchased over the centuries as Grey College grew to need more space. In contrast the School of Clerkship was a planned campus. Any flaws with this development?

Paul wrote:
>>> Rauxes probably had or still has extensive lore in the remains of its libraries and vaults. And let's not forget Pontylver and Mentrey. <<<

I _have_ forgotten Pontlyver. What is it noteworthy for? Mentrey definitely has archives although much of its lore was made to agree with the doctrine of the temple of Hextor. Nowadays of course the city is ruined. Still, if you want to send any adventurers to search vaults for books, this is a suitable place.

Yet Fiend-Sage aside, I consider Rel Astra more of a mercantile place than a city of learning. Will the details for its rennaissance be explicated, please? Rel Deven's Cranden ruler is a scholar, IIRC, so I like lots of Dellebian lore being there, and Eastfair is the largest city of Northern Aerdy, so having colleges there works well. But we should remember that according to one of the '98 books, King Grenell proclaimed Old Oeridian the state language although it was noted that he continues to use Common. More strife for the academics!

Okay so Radigast City is a proposed Rennaissance Italy, and Belissica gains the nickname Medici? ;) Again I suggest throwing some Eleanor of Aquitaine into that Countess!

Olidamara is the likely source of hedonistic belief in the Flanaess. Maybe Myhriss (through her troubador/troveres) inspires epicurean-oid beliefs. Or is this a much older system that traces its origin to the rapture of Hanali Celanil?

And "skeptics" in Nellix, tsk, tsk. My but this Flanaess has been rather educated all along. "But they wear _pants_!" :P

Regarding Velunan attitudes, I too like the idea of prejudiced, righteous, and "superior" Velunan attitudes. Whereas the Ketites would be considered barbarians, the Furyondians (and Bisselites) are treated as children, and the Keolanders and Verboboncians are contemptible. However I wouldn't want to overdo it. Rao is not Pholtus, after all.

To my knowledge there is close to nothing published regarding Daern. However, Irongate does seem centrally enough located to be her historical home base. I want Daern's symbol to be chiseled onto the Velunan bridges of Caronis and the old Ritensa Bridge as well as several cities within the South Province and Darmen Lands of old. Will anyone tell us where else they've seen her mark? I can relate that Elayne Mystica was overheard at a dinner party explaining something that she saw in a Daern sketchbook. It was something about a way for ships to cross the isthmus between the
southern Vast Swamp where it meets Spine Ridge. Completely fantatical and impractical, of course, but such a route would render the SB Tilva Strait blockade useless . . .

Regarding troubadours, it seems like Countess Belissica is only a latter day saint when compared with the "dimming memory of the noonlight of Loriaelor!"

Alas for Nevondeer! ::raises chalice::

Much Amedio lore must have been in private libraries (a guild's) in Monmurg, but there is also some in the Matreyus estate, north of Gradsul, if we believe Mr. Roger Moore. Much of this lore as well as what Paul calls "neutral knowledge" was plundered and sent to Tilva Lands. But Pyremian pyres still light the nights in Monmurg.

I'm partial to Lyceum because of Ultima III, but maybe Lydium will grow on me. It's rather Latin, isn't it? Isn't cour French for heart, or is it correctly spelled coeur? What is the Latin for heart?

Marc Tizoc
a registered motormouth

Various

Date Sent: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:17:26 -0400
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
From: Otto Zequeira 2 OTETA@AOL.COM
Subject: [GREYTALK] Various
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

WGM1 Errata: On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:54:51 -0500, dek
efilson@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU asked, “Are you referring to WGM1? That’s the one with the errata available. (It’s nearly unplayable without.) If not, is there really errata available for WGQ1?” Oops, I made a booboo. I meant to say WGM1.

Oerth=Earth: On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:36:05 -0500, Gary Gygax
ggygax@GENEVAONLINE.COM wrote, “Not to be nosey, but whatever gave you the idea that I used the USA for modeling anything on Oerth?”

The shape of the Nyr Dyv, and, as another posted mentioned, your essay in “Necropolis” which connects the City of Greyhawk with Chicago. Greyhawk is run by a U.S.-like Mafia as well, isn’t it? Maybe I took the ball and ran with it from there, but, then again, maybe I haven’t gone as far as you might lead us to believe. Nevertheless, if the Flanaess were more like a medieval or renaissance Europe than it is, it’s possible that I wouldn’t like it as much as I do. It is loose enough to have allowed me to use my own approach to the setting, which lately has been to link it with the U.S. through metaphors.

You also mentioned, “Well, Oerth is the word the locals use for their planet, but the world itself in so far removed from our own it is not recognizably a parallel world. witness the shape of the only continental landmass created by the original author.”

Are you saying that the Oerth map in Dragon Annual #1 did not come from hand written drawings by yourself, as the article claims?

Salt Marsh in Aerdy: On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:07:11 +0100, Pete Blake
peteb@DIGICON-EGR.CO.UK asked, “Has anyone placed U1-3 into Aerdy with any success, and if so, where abouts did you put it?”

I would suggest putting it somewhere the Lordship of the Isles if it’s pre-FtA. They might have tolerated some piracy vs. the Great Kingdom, since they were in the Iron League.

Mapping: On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:35:07 -0400, Michael Gillis
MPGillis@AOL.COM said, “I’d like to know how other DM’s handle mapping.”

My approach is to cater to the players’ interests as much as possible without violating what I’m trying to do. For example, I was taking one of the two groups I game with through “The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun” recently, and I wrote out rough sketches of some of the maps because the players didn’t seem to want to go through the detail work at the time. But when one of them asked, “Well, is that everything?” I answered, “Maybe, but remember, I drew these maps, and they’re pretty sketchy…”.

Re: The Duchy of Tenh (Scottish rite)

Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:14:21 -0700
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
From: “C. Jarvis” cjarvis@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] The Duchy of Tenh (Scottish rite)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

In response to Scott’s muchly deserved flaming of my posterior over the “You’re not Scot Mr. Jarvis” discussion of the Tenha:

---Ouch, that really hurt. But I must concede, Mr. Rennie, you would certainly know better than I. I must insist that I meant not to slight or insult with my missive.

>Ordinary?! ORDINARY!!!

----Okay, there are only extraordinarie Scots. I’m in the SCA, and there you cannot swing a stick without hitting a Scot. Or a Celt. Or a Norse for that matter…

>Oh yeah! Where in Scotland do you live – maybe we could meet up sometime?

---I am (or might be) related to any of several dead (ex-) Scots, Irish, Welsh, Brits, Dutch & the odd German (Quaker). I have not had the pleasure or oppurtunity to make my way to Scotland (yet); but I did float past it… I live in Seattle, which only shares a certain turn of weather with Scotland.

>Why? What are ‘the Scottish’ like?

---I imagine they are somewhat sensitive of any slights to their heritage. Any categorizations I would make would fall short of the entirety…

>The Scots tartans (not ‘plaid’ – a plaid is the name of the garment which t
>kilt originated from, not the pattern) were not originally so colorful as
>they once are, since old dyes tended to be made from natural sources.

---You know what a tartan is. I know what a tartan is. Under “Racial & National Dress” from WoG Gazeteer vol 3:

Oerdians typically favor checks and plaids. Aerdi and Nyrondal houses tend to wear plaids, while the southern and western Oeridians favor checks, often of a diamond pattern or similar variation from the standard square. Clothing tends toward tight-legged trousers, close-fitting upper garments, and capes or cloaks.

When I read this back in 1983 and was looking to find a flavor for the Oerdians it hit me that I could use an analog to the peoples of the British Isles. Considering that one of the major deities of the Oerdians is Procan, it supported the fact that they were sea-farers, or at least from a place by the sea (not south west of the Paynims & Ull).

>Also, the ’83 set states the ‘Flannae once wore brightly-hued body paints.’
>The name ‘Scot’ means ‘painted warrior’, taken from the old (ie pre-Roman)
>Scots habit of covering their entire bodies in (usually blue) war paint, so
>that even if they lost their clothes in battle they would not be naked.

----Are you a Wode-Warrior sir? Lots of peoples still wear or worn brightly-hued body paints. The ’83 says nothing of the Flani going into battle ‘sky-clad’.

[Text missing]

>existed).

---Addressed above.

>A borgue???

---No a brogue. I think this is an American thing. Every player I know gives his character an outrageous accent (done very badly). I have seen individuals from the region in question visibly wince upon hearing such absurd utterances. I don’t know why we do it…

>>Zilchus is very Scottish.
>I see – the ‘Scots as a bunch of tight-fisted money-grubbing skinflints
>stereotype’.

---joke, joke. I didn’t mean it. I take it back. Sorry, sorry.

>>And you really can’t say “Fharlanghn” without a slight lilt and
>>rolling your r’s.
>Well, I certainly can’t – but to be honest it sounds more Welsh to me, which
>brings me on to…
>>The double ‘l’ in Delleb becomes Welsh, and you are good to go.
>Good to go where? Wales maybe. The Welsh have nothing to do with the Scots!

---Geographically Wales and Scotland are connected (for better or worse) to the same land mass. If one extends the analogy of the Oeridians (a large diverse people) to the peoples of the British isles (say the Celts and earlier peoples), who are also diverse…then one could get away with such an act.

>Yep, you have no preference for any ract to be ‘Scottish’, but if you are goi
>to do it, get your facts right.

--I shall differ to you sir.

>Anyway, I think the Scots/Tenh link goes a lot further back than Braveheart
>I seem to remember asking before where it came from, and someone suggested
>EGG himself thought of it that way.

---I wouldn’t know. I grew up, gamed, and crafted my own version of WoG in the cultural wastelands of Montana. I’ve seen too many of EGG’s pontificating rants to take anything he says seriously. I mean no offense but this is merely an opinion formed from various and sundry DRAGON articles in the early 80’s. Situations change. People and opinions change. Life goes on.

>Another dimension you forgot is the religious aspect – we had, and still
>have, quite a bit of religious fervor here in Scotland. From the Covenants
>earlier on, to present day sectarianism between the Catholics and
>Protestants, it is a hot-bed of religious fire here, albeit not so tense as
>Northern Ireland I might add.

---I hadn’t forgotten this aspect, I just lacked an appropriate way of applying it. Do the Flani seem this religiously fervent? Such zeal hardly seems to fit (if one were to apply this analogy).

>Again, I should caution against taking any analogy too far. The
>peoples of Greyhawk are unique and any comparison to a culture or people
>on a world berift of magic & majesty is bound to fall short.

---I agree, I would also like to reiterate (in light of Mr. Walsh’s comments) that this comment does apply to my own Oeridian-Scottish/Irish/etc. analog. I am just as guilty as anyone else—and I know this and am fully cognizant of my actions.

>IMC incidentally, the closest to a Scots-based people are a ‘lost tribe’ of
>Flan who fled Haradaragh before its downfall, being forced from their next
>homes in the Good Hills then the Stark Mounds and southern Geoff by the
>advancing nation of Keoland, finally disappearing into the Crystalmists.

---Are the Haradaragh detailed anywhere? I don’t own everything Greyhawk (yet). IMC the clans of Geoff & Sterich are fairly close to being Scots-based: sporting individual clan tartans (though with some colors the Scots traditionally don’t use—which are attributed to Suel, Baklunae, Flani, and non-human influences), beating on each other when there is no one threatening their lands, etc. Though they have had to deal with successive incursions of other peoples.

Again I would with to reitterate, that I meant no malice by my post. I merely saw things differently than Mr. Walsh (I hope I have at least gotten the name right).

Still flanning the flames on my behind,
Chris Jarvis, living in Seattle and occasionally wearing a dress (I mean tunic…no really)

The Passage to Manhood - long

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 99 14:48PM PDT
From: "Brian A. Murphy" Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] The Passage to Manhood - long

When one of the players characters was killed in the Abyss by the HrathnirDemon, he started a new character from Maldev. The character's name was Feather and he was a barbarian from the mountains around Kandelspire. Given the nature of Maldev's plight, I thought it quite reasonable when the player wanted to play a CN character.

Once the party re-entered the Abyss after defeating Lolth's armies at Kandelspire, the character returned with the rest of the party to Oerth. The problem was, he was 8th level and still needed to be trained by someone. Talking with Jontash about the probable location of Barbarian tribes that would be compatible with him (CN) he was directed towards the east coast, where he encountered the Tribe of Strong Spirits.

This is one of the smaller tribes that had joined the rest of the barbarian hordes in decimating Ratik (IMC they don't get along and have been trying to take the more fertile, lower lands for centuries). When Feather came upon them, they had lands in and around the border of Ratik and the Bone March. There is a real hot-zone between old Ratik and the Bone March, mainly due to the Barbarians.

At any rate, he needed to become a member of the tribe in order to train, and I had to write up something to explain why (and how) they let him into the tribe.

The following then, is what I came up with to explain the tribal adoption.
=======================================
The Passage to Manhood
Excerpted from:
Observations on the Primitives in the Barbarian Reaches
Kynle Saru
Anthropological Humanologist
College of Greyhawk
=======================================
The Passage to Manhood within the Tribe of Strong Spirits consists of seven stages:

The first step, named by the tribe as the Learning of Honor (a rather blatant misnomer in my book), is a rather twisted period for the initiate wherein the Elders of the tribe attempt to humiliate and demean the applicant, confusing him with contradictory and unpredictable commands and edicts.

The novice is the runner, gopher, servant and slave to everyone with the coveted second name in the tribe. The prospect is addressed in various uncomplimentary ways, from "Scum-licker: to :Schmegma-breath" and is expected to not only acknowledge and even thank the elder for the accurate observation of character, but must perform whatever despicable service the Elder requires at the time. From ditch digging to hunting to -----shoveling, no task is too low for the manling.

It is expected that the apprentice gains some higher meaning from this abuse, although this researcher has been unable to determine what beneficial effect this has on the prospective warrior other than to perpetuate the unpredictability of the tribe.

The second stage of the Passage is the Testing of Honor. If the manling survives the Learning (many don't), there is a rigorous ceremony centered on the adolescent. He is placed in the center of the tribal circle and all Elders (male, of course) begin by imbuing him with "The Essence and Wisdom of the Elders" (they urinate all over him). Then, he is made to stomp around inside the circle and amongst the steaming coals of the tribal fire, that all present may be aware of his level of wisdom. Apparently, the more powerful the aroma, the more he has learned.

Drinking of the Blood of the Tribe (a strong concoction brewed by the Shaman), the novice's eyes are opened to the Spirit World. He is then instructed to go out across the Lands of Death and bring back his Adult Spirit.

The novice then, under the light of the full moon, leaves the circle and runs into the night. This begins the third stage, called the Search of the Spirit. Howling and screeching to terrify the spirits of the tribe's dead enemies, the apprentice sheds all coverings and tools, to show the Earth Mother that ne needs nothing other than the Wisdom of the Tribe to survive her torment. Then, prior to first light, he must track down a wild creature and bring it to the Shaman alive in his arms. (Given the extreme hallucinogenic and anesthetic effects of the Blood of the Tribe, I have been unable to judge the veracity of any tales told of the Search by the Elders. A common thread appears to be dangerous spirit enemies intent on enslaving and eating the hunter.)

It should be noted that many of those who survived the Learning fail the Search and never return to the tribe. Although tribal members take this to be a sign of unworthiness, the reality may be something else entirely. While the tribe claims much of the surrounding territory as its own, there are many wild areas nearby, in "claimed" lands. Many dangerous denizens inhabit the area including trolls, lamias, displacer beasts and the occasional owl bear. Despite tribal claims that "no creature would be stupid enough to challenge our might," it should be noted that the Testing is one of the few times that a tribal member travels in open lands alone.

When the apprentice returns, bleeding and broken into the circle, the Shaman takes the animal from the novice. At this point, the apprentice is draped to the Women's Circle for the Test of Vitality, the fourth stage of the Passage. (This researcher has not borne witness to this test, but, in seeing the preparations, I shudder to think of its' implications. Ropes, feathers, stones tied together and oddly shaped sticks of wood are all laid out amongst a large bed of leaves. Various oils and liniments are also present, their use unknown. It wasn't the items themselves that disturbed me so; it was the suggestive gestures and odd looks on the part of the women when they noticed me observing them that caused me to beat a hasty retreat...)

At first light on the following day, after the novice returns from the Women's Circle -- if he returns, I noted that some young men ran kicking and wailing back to the whelps' huts -- he begins the fifth stage, the Claiming of Title. Otherwise known as The Telling, this period in the ritual seems to center on braggery and exaggeration, as the tales told rarely resemble probable circumstances. The initiate tells of his exploits, in the Hunt, in Battle, and in any other endeavor he feels can
increase his appearance to the tribe. I have heard many detailed accounts of applicants' slaying gigantic monsters with nothing but grass blades, toe-nails and even belly-lint! Tales of novices overcoming their enemies with nothing but the wisdom of the tribe (they seem to have a thing for aromatic attacks) and even exploits with women which seem physically impossible.

Once complete, the novice is then blindfolded, gagged and bound. Placed in a hole, he is then buried near the tribal graveyard to await the sixth stage of the Passage, the Decision of the Elders. This too, is a difficult time for the initiate, as the Elders must decide the validity of the novice's claims. Many times I have seen a prospect reach this step only to fail, not because the Elders decided against him, but because their decision was too late in coming.

Usually, as long as the Elders do not forget about the novice they will eventually decide to name him. Finally, after the novice is dug up and revived, the Elders then bestow the Tribal Name on the new adult. This name, while ostensibly a result of The
Telling, sometimes is the result of the Elders latching onto one facet of the tale found most memorable and expounding upon it. It should be noted that this tends to be something the Elders by consensus find amusing and derogatory to the apprentice. The end result appears to depend on a multitude of factors: the entertainment value of the tale, how well the initiate is looked upon by the Elders, the probability that the novice could be telling the truth, the whispers of the womenfolk and (probably most importantly), the ratio of hung-over to still-intoxicated Elders still conscious at the naming.
===================================================

The Learning of Honor -- You hung in there and did whatever was asked!

The Search of the Spirit -- You returned with a wild boar.

The Testing of Vitality -- You awoke in the morning staked naked to the ground. The tribal women were all around you and seemed very pleased and strangely content?!?!?!?!

The Telling -- You described your tale of other worlds and Demon Queens, death and destruction, (completely true, who needs to embellish that wild of a story?) but they didn't buy it. In fact, they kept interrupting and cracking jokes, mostly centered on how well your skull "served" you (side note: The character had taken a goblin's skull and stuck it on one of his armor's shoulder spikes as kind of a warped second head. He was quite proud of it). You didn't get the joke, but they found it extremely amusing.

The Naming -- After waking up coughing dirt (and having strange dreams to boot), you are brought back to the center of the Elders. Bleary eyed and cringing in the light of the sun, the Chieftain and other look upon you and bestow your name:

Feather Skull-Humper

And you are accepted into the tribe!

You train and are at the next level, ready to return to Hillville.

Brian A. Murphy, MCP
Eikon Consulting Services
http://www.eikoncs.com