Re: JOAN OF ARC - NGC

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] JOAN OF ARC - NGC
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 02:54:59 +1000
From: Philip O'Neill
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

> > Fever: I'll say it again. A fever is not something good. A low-grade fever is not harmful, but once it goes over about 39C you really start to worry -- febrile convulsions are not pretty and they CAN cause brain damage when your cerebral proteins start denaturing. Any child not responding to antipyretics for a fever should be taken to a hospital or doctor ASAP.
>
> I've looked and I can't find anything to either support or disprove this
> (brain damage that is).. I've looked in 2 meurology texts, the Merck
> manual of pediatrics (and adults), Goldblume's text on Pediatrics and
> Harrison's textboon on INternal Medicine..the only thing i can find
> relating febrile seizures to brain damage is if the seizure lasts for >5
> minutes (VERY uncommon), regardless of temperature, the chance of
> developing epilepsy is greater than 5%..however, none of these texts ever
> say that it can or cannont cause brain damage..
>

"Textbook of Medical Physiology (7th Edition)": Guyton (p 859)

"When the body temperature rises beyond a critical temperature, into the range of 106F to 108F [41-42C], the person is likely to develop heat stroke. They symptoms include dizziness, abdominal distress, sometimes delirium and eventually loss of consciousness if the body temperature is not soon decreased. Many of these symptoms probably result from a mild degree of circulatory shock brought on by excessive loss of fluid and electrolytes in the sweat before the onset of symptoms. however, the hyperpyrexia [high fever] itself is also EXCEEDINGLY DAMAGING TO THE BODY TISSUES, ESPECIALLY TO THE BRAIN [emphasis mine], and therefore is undoubtedly responsible for
many of the effects. In fact, EVEN A FEW MINUTES OF VERY HIGH BODY TEMPERATURE CAN SOMETIMES BE FATAL [emphasis mine]..."

Further...

"When the body temperature rises above 106F to 108F, the parenchyma [organ tissue] of many cells begins to be damaged. The pathological findings in a person who DIES [emphasis mine] of hyperpyrexia are local haemorrhages and parenchymatous degeneration of cells throughout the entire body, but especially in the brain."

Add that to the many patients I nursed in the 80s in a brain-injury rehab unit who had suffered varying degrees of brain damage (primarily cognitive) as a result of high fevers, and I am reasonably confident in asserting yet again that a high fever is a dangerous, potentially life-threatening condition.

>
> > Fair enough. Yes, they SET the fractures -- but I doubt they reduced them correctly (meaning realigned the broken ends so that the bone healed
> > straight). For all but the most minor fractures, a reduction is carried out surgically under anaesthetic -- there is simply no other way of getting it right. Without a correct reduction, the bone heals oddly, impairing
> > movement.
>

I'll answer this one bit by bit...

> True again, however, the vast majority of fractures are minor, and can be
> treated with closed reduction (in a cast)..everything from lower leg
> fractures

Nope. A large proportion, probably around 50% (and that's being generous) come under that class -- hardly a "vast majority". Fracture your tibia and you need it plated or it won't heal. There is no way it can heal while weight-bearing, and if you just get slapped in a cast, the fracture site is under constant strain. The only way to avoid this is to screw a plate over the break to immobilise and support it.

>, to hand, wrist, forearm and upper arm fractures can be done in
> a cast.

Uh-uh. Occasionally an orthopaedic surgeon will attempt to reduce a fractured radius or humerus in a closed manner with x-ray visualisation, but these are the exceptions.
A simple Colles fracture can usually be done via closed reduction, as can some minor fractures elsewhere (most often in children as greenstick fractures don't mobilise and don't need much reduction), but the majority of fracture reductions are of the "ORIF", or "Open Reduction, Internal Fixation" type, where an incision is made and plates and screws of various types are inserted.

> Usually on the hingh energy fractures (resulting in an open wound)
> require surgery

Again, no. Compound fractures most certainly DO require surgery, but so do many, many low-energy simple fractures. In the operating theatre where I currently work, I would estimate the number of open reductions exceeds closed by around 5:1. And please note, I AM considering the fact that the patient needs to come to theatre in the first place, thus increasing the chance that they require surgery. A fracture reduction is EXTREMELY painful and is always performed under an anaesthetic of some type: either a regional block (like an epidural except in a limb) or a general -- either way, it's done in theatre. So a good three-quarters of fractures coming thru emergency are routed thru theatre as it is only the undisplaced fractures (minority)
which can be set without reduction.

Any comminuted fracture requires surgery (meaning where the bone breaks into several pieces) and these are exceedingly common in anyone performing any sort of physical labour, or running, or jumping, horse-riding, skiing etc etc. IOW, anyone living a very physically active life suffering a fracture has a very good chance of suffering a comminuted one.

..although fractures around a joint are different..they get
> surgery, not because they won't heal, but because of the greatly increased
> risk of arthritis. Bone healing in misalignment can cause impared
> movement, but depends on which bones...forearm and hand fractures do this,
> as well as fractures around a joing (hip, elbow, etc)..however, upper arm,
> lower leg, etc fractures don't casue any problems in movement (although it
> may very well hurt a considerable bit for a long time...)
>

Don't bet on it (the immobility thing, that is, not the pain). You fracture your tibia and have it set incorrectly, you'll walk with a limp the rest of your life. It is a long, straight bone that is MEANT to be straight. If it isn't, it means your ankle isn't resting correctly which throws off your weight on your foot. In addition to leading to further problems due to abnormal gait, it simply DOES cause movement problems.

> >
> > For first aid, perhaps. Not for long-term recovery -- you're risking causing further damage to the ends of the bone, damaging muscle tissue or blood
> > vessels around the bone (which can lead to a further compication -- not
> > uncommon -- called "compartment syndrome" which results in muscle death and gangrene if untreated) and the release of "fat emboli", especially if long bones like the femur, tibia or humerus are involved, where fragments of
> > marrow are released into the blood stream, acting like a blood clot to lodge in the lungs to kill of portions of lung tissue (pulmonary emboli).
>
> Fat amboli is caused by long bone fractures as a result of the injury, not
> the treatment...we haven't seen a significant reduction in fat emboli in
> the last century, because we can't do anything about it. Compartment
> syndrome is also incited by the initial injury, and a splint
> treatment. Its a swelling of the muscles within a fixed space ( for
> example (for those who don't know) in your lower leg, you have four
> compartments of essentially fixed space in while lie your various muscles,
> blood vessels and nerves) casued by the injury. Often, its the cast
> itself that causes compartment syndrome, and the symptoms can be relieved
> by splitting the cast. I will admit though, that if you got a compartment
> syndrome back then, you were prety much assured of losing your leg (or
> dieing if they didn't get it off in time)
>

Fair enough. I didn't word it very well -- yes, fat emboli are caused by the injury, but emboli can be released by careless manipulation of a fracture: the THROMBUS (an "in-place" embolus) is created by the fracture, but it may not EMBOLISE (be released into the bloodstream) until disturbed.

As far as no significant reductions go, I don't know. I haven't seen or heard any info so I'll take your word for it.

> > >an abnormal gait has never been shown to cause back problems...sore hips yes, but I've never seen a study prove that bad gait casues back pain
> > >*shrug*
> > >
> > Well, I haven't seen a study to demonstrate it, but it's pretty much
> > accepted within the medical / para-medical fields that an altered gait
> > forces the muscles of the back to realign themselves to compensate,
> > resulting in a poorer posture and a lessening of muscular support for the spinal column.
>
> Its not accepted in these parts by any orthopedic surgeon I know...the
> rehab docs are split on the issue, but the physiotherapists and people who
> make orthotics think it is the case.
>

Hmm. I haven't spoken to any orthopods specifically on it -- I'll mention it next time I'm at work and see if I can gauge a response. It was something very strongly pushed when I was working in rehab, however, and as you said, the physios and OTs are convinced.

> > And yet we still grow stronger and taller, run faster, jump higher and reach puberty earlier with each generation. That's why Olympic records keep
> > getting broken.
>
> we've stopped growing taller in the last 20-30 years, and as far as the
> Olympics go, do you really want to get in a discussion of the rampant use
> of anabolic steroids in professional (not to mention amateur and even high
> school) sports these days?
>

Nope! *grin* I think we're far enough off-topic as it is! Okay, I shouldn't have thrown in the Olympics bit, I guess. Growing taller, however...is that right, that we've stopped in the last generation or so? I wasn't aware of that -- I always thought it was still continuing.

I did, however, think of an example after I sent the last post (of good nutrition leading to bigger people): where my wife did her midwifery training in Sydney, there was a large ethnic Chinese population. Most had come from the poorer areas of China, and tended to be very slightly built. When they had babies, however, the foetuses were being nourished with nutrients gained from a more substantial diet, and as such, these women had an astonishingly high rate of Caesarean sections due to cranio-pelvic disproportion, where the baby's head simply won't fit thru the woman's
pelvis. They were just damn big babies in comparison to the mothers!

In addition (and this is purely anecdotal, so take it with a grain of salt if you wish! *grin*), most of the Australian-born Chinese we lived and worked with didn't share their parents' slight stature; they tended to be as tall and muscular as any Caucasian in Australia. I can't think of anything to attribute this to except that they had a more substantial diet from infancy than their parents did.

> > Granted, but most people are AWARE that it is a good practice to wash one's hands before preparing food etc. I'm not saying it is 100% fool-proof, just that the awareness makes a difference, as we are still more likely to do it than someone who has absolutely no idea that it makes any difference.
>
> Awareness doesn't stop disease, only doing what you are supposed to
> does..bet we could do a quick survey on this list..how many people know
> taht smoking is bad for ya..now how many of you smoke anyway? I think
> you'd have a hard time finding anyone whio doesn't know smoking casues
> cancer, lung and heart problems, low birth weight babies, etc, etc,
> however, as many people smoke now (as a percentage of teh population) as
> they did 20 years ago..with the exception of women..more of them are
> smoking now than ever before (lung cancer just passed breast cancer as the
> #1 cause of death in women...congrats *shrug*)
>

Yeah, fair enough. It's at least a first step, I guess, however. Without the awareness, there's NO chance of the action.



*big sigh*

The interesting thing here is, of course, the fact that we pretty much DO agree on most of the broader details. Still, I like a good debate as much as the next man *grin*

What say we call it quits after your reply to this? I feel like we're being glowered at by the rest of the list! *self-consciously pulling on my asbestos jammies*

Phil O'Neill
"May I find you with peace, and leave you with hope..."

http://members.xoom.com/aldaron/2300.htm

Ptolomey, Copernicus and the nomisnalist descriptions of the solar system [NGC]

Subject: [GREYTALK] Ptolomey, Copernicus and the nomisnalist descriptions of
the solar system [NGC]
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:31:27 +0200
From: Matthias Sant'Ana
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Hi all,

I know this is NGC, but I'd like to disagree with Jay Hafner in his "copernican revolution" argument, repeated below:

>I remember learning how _complicated_ the equations were for figuring out the Ptolemeic system of the universe (the earth is the center and the _stars_
>_and_ planets revolve around it). The system was wrong and completely
>simplified when Copernicus let the truth out... Wasn't he flamed at the
>stake from the 'church' too?


There is no doubt how difficult it was to describe the solar system and it's
irregularities with the eliptic or circular orbits that composed the ptolemaic (sp) model. The system was wrong, as was Copernicus' BTW, but it was by far a more elegant model (mathematically less complex...) and it gave out the same general mechanical results from a earth-centered perspective. If he wanted to determine where mars would be in a certain moment, he could do that as well as any other system, including Copernicus'.

The fact is that these men were nominalists. They believed that if god could do anything, it was not very wrong to create imaginary models that could simplify calculus, no matter how absurd they might be in a metaphysical sense (in those days) or in a strictly scientific astronomy (in our days). They were not concerned with describing reality in itself, but only with determining precisely the position of stars as regards our point-of-view. They were not doing choices on metaphysics, but on geometry and mathematics, and not because they opposed the churches totalitarian opinions about the universe, which they in fact endorsed, since they accepted that God could establish a universe under whichever laws He chose.

Copernicus was condemned, as is frequently the case when one wants to persecute a certain ideology, because of an imputed ideology. The church said he held a certain view, despite the fact that he might not have defended that view at all. But then again this is just guessing, since the records of his judgement are still held in secrecy by the vatican (they were supposed to be disclosed soon, though...). I think it was Burke (don't recall his first name now..., but he's an historian of science who had privileged access to church archives in the Gregorian Institute at Rome) who
said that it was equally probable that he was condemned because certain of his thesis in physics implied that the miracle of transubstanciation (sp) of bread in to the body of the Christ during eucharistics could not occur. That was a dogma much dearer to the church than the relative position of the stars and planets... This is just to say that what we really know about Copernicus, and his trial, is very much tainted by revisionary interpretation of the rennaissance and posterior periods, where everything held to be true by the Church should be considered nonsense and everything held to be true by the newly emancipated commercial aristocracy is true...

That's all I had to say. Just for the record, I agree otherwise with everything Mr. Jay Hafner said about AD&D. I'm quite traditionalist myself, and stick mostly to the rules, but one issue that was never really adressed by the AD&D system was the distinction between things that are innate because of culture, and those that are racially or biologically innate. It's easier to understand why dwarves are more resistant to magic because of their constitution than understanding why elves, even if they are not proficient with a sword or bow, get a +1 on it... it's the same question with armor wearing elven F/MU... and so on...

Flames or comments?

Matthias.

Re: DMs who taketh away

Date sent: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:32:20 -0700
Send reply to: “John Fox [TEMP]” John.W.Fox@Eng.Sun.COM
From: “John Fox [TEMP]” John.W.Fox@ENG.SUN.COM
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] DMs who taketh away
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Dear Net-gang:

After lurking for about a week on this subject I just have to say a few things about removing unwanted items (magical) or artifacts (relics) from the players’ hands.

1) Can you say rust monster. This is particularly useful if the bad guys have an illusion on the rust monster so one of the PC attacks it with his sword.
What sword……rust now.
2) Can you say captured and all items removed. Run a small campaign where characters are captured and they manage to get back most but not all of their magic items. The bad guys gave the artifact to his boss (lead into another adventure)
3) Did someone say theif. I mean what to say someone does not go into their room when the groups is out bar hopping or eating. The character does not take all his possessions with him to church, dinner, the brothel(oops), the opera.
4) Dragon’s fiery breath, you take xx points of damage, roll, roll and the following items melt because they did not save versus breath weapons.
5) Assign a certain percentage chance of an item breaking if the person is using giant strength. Say a 1 or 3 percent chance each time the item is used against a hard object. This only applies to weapons.
6) Some very important treasure requires that magical items be sacrificed to get into the place (Greyhawk castle)
7) A sage of immense knowledge may require a magical item or two to do research of for the characters to obtain certain information they need. “You want that information that only I know, I require a magic item and gold…my services are not CHEAP!!”
8) King: “My that sword is really nice. I always wanted a Dragon Slayer Sword. You say you want to live here, we just can’t have anyone taking up residence. It will require a small fee. Boy that sword looks nice (as the armed guard looks on).”
9) Priest: “Oh great Boccob what is thy bidding from thy humble servant?” An Avator of Boccob appears (minor one) and says “Thy mace of disruption is needed for a great battle in a far away land. You must stay here and guard the [word missing] so the evil which resides here does not rise. A priest by the name of [word missing] Undead Destroyer has need of your mace. He will arrive tomorrow. His [word missing] is of utmost importance!”
10) Player: “OOPS, I roled a 1.
DM: “Let’s see, you are on a cliff (ship on ocean, in air), a 1, hmm, you dropped the rod of life and death. It falls down the cliff and disappears from sight”
11) Demon: “My master says he wants that magic item…Give now or you die!”
12) DM: “You launch the fireball and suddenly the rod fizzles and sparks and turns a dull grey. It looks like it is out of charges.”
13) DM: “You are battling in cold water. After the fight with the sauhagin you suddenly notice that one of your rings is missing (cold water makes fingers smaller in diameter due to shrinking)
14) Artifact: “I said we are going to do THIS” After about three or four times the player will get sick of taking orders from the item and go to church and give it up.
15) Setting: Players are in bar (gathering) whatever and a artifact of good sees an artifact of evil..”Too ARMS, EVIL, EVIL, KILL, KILL, DESTROY”
16) Setting: Players in gathering with artifact that has a dirty mind. “Hey babe (guy) what to have a real good time!” This is particularly embarrassing to people of good alignment.
17) And the Jerko the Jackass got the last piece of the rod of seven parts. As the last part was joined he was filled with the fealing (thought) that he was GOD. The other gods looked down and laughed when suddenly a 100 HD lightning bolt decended on Jerko, turning him into a pile of ash and the rod of seven parts became the rod of seven separate parts again.
18) Artifact: “You are asking me to do what!?!?!?!? I don’t think so. As a matter of fact your alignment has strayed recently. Crack”
19) One of the beads of whatever (see DM handbook) says that players [word missing] down all magic items and then walks away forgetting what happened.
20) Evil artifact like Blackrazor must kill every so often or then turn on their master for hit points.
21) My mission is to destroy the evil under the ruins of castle XXXX. You must put me into the recess on the throne so the evil will stay banished forever.
22) Player lays artifact down near ant hill. Most number ant walks over, steps on artifact, thus destroying said object.
23) Player ends up in water and must ditch every heavy object to stay afloat.

To DMs, if the item really unbalances the game, talk with the player and [word missing] they are willing to make a sacrifice at the temple giving up the item in exchange for something a less powerful with promise of a future favor.

In all things try and make it reasonable and do start to play DM versus player.

Hope this helps a few people

John W. Fox

Re: Forensic divination magic [was: Circle of Darkness, now NGC]

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Forensic divination magic [was: Circle of Darkness, now NGC]
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:54:59 -0600
From: John C Wright
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Scott wrote:
> The body is DEAD. Therefore, it is not a living thing. IF the body is Cymria's
> remains, then the spell would confirm that, yes, the dead body of Cymria is right
> there on the floor. IF the body is someone else and NOT Cymria, the spell would
> not locate the body lying on the floor -- thus proving that Cymria, if not still
> alive, had at least not met her end here as it appeared.

My question was never about the body being dead. The way the spell reads (and the point to remember is that it is a low-level divination and therefore not infallible), is that the caster must know for certain what the 'true' body of Cymria is like when they cast the spell.

Example: Martin the Priest of Nunsuch...casts locate object to discover the location of the shroud of balin. All of the information that Martin knows describes the shroud as being of x height and x weight and x dimensions etc. When he casts the spell, locate object will lead him to the object (even if in truth the object is actually pants of gunn or the shirt of tina). The spell cannot differentiate between what it is believed to be looking for and what it is intended to be looking for. If Martin goes one further and has a piece of the shroud there, and casts the spell, even though the shroud is really atablecloth, the spell will indicate its location and not give any reason for the caster to suspect that the object is anything other than what it is thought to be.

So in the example of the body I had stated, the fact that there is a body available and that the priest is trying to locate said body, will lead to the spell revealing that the body does indeed lay right before the caster. Even though the body is not the body of who the caster thinks it is.

Now while locate object would not reveal such information, the fourth level spell divination might very well, so long as the caster went about asking his questions in a logical and consistent manner, and did not automatically assume that the body before them was in fact the body of Cymria.

I hope that makes my view a bit more understandable, but I am glad to have feedback. The point about mid-level divinations is one I had not yet covered for the body, and am glad it was brought up so that I have my answers ready when my group gets to this point. Hmmm....then again they don't have divination as a major sphere to any of their priests...ah well best to cover all the bases beforehand.

John Wright

Re: Request (LONG)

Date sent: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:38:11 -0700
Send reply to: jwhitt@accn.org
From: James Whitt
Organization: Contract Upholstelry
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] request (LONG)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

POTIONS, OILS, ELIXIRS, AND PHILTERS
1-2 on d6
d20
1 Animal Control Vaporous Light Orange, frothy in consistency, a lemony odor and, a fishy taste
d20
1-4 Mammal/Marsupial Brown Swirls
5-8 Avian Blue Swirls
9-12 Reptile/Amphibian Green Swirls
13-15 Fish Yellow Swirls
16-17 Mammal/Marsupial/Avian Purple Swirls
18-19 Reptile/Amphibian/Fish Gray Swirls
20 All of the Above Black Swirls
2 Clairaudience Oily Blue w/ Green Swirls frothy in consistency, a rank odor and a sweet taste
3 Clairvoyance Yellow w/ Green Sediment, watery in consistency, a lemony odor and, a fishy taste
4 Climbing Blue-Violet creamy consistency, smells of Usk Wood, taste like Honey
5-6 Delusion Iridescent Dark Green thick in consistency, smells of honey and an acidic taste
7 Diminution Green w/ Purple Swirls, creamy consistency, smoky odor and greasy taste
8 Dragon Control Iridescent Gold, greasy consistency, with a carrion-like odor and, a meaty taste
d20
1-2 White Dragon Navy Swirls
3-4 Black Dragon Gray Swirls
5-7 Green Dragon Yellow Swirls
8-9 Blue Dragon Red Swirls
10 Red Dragon Orange Swirls
11-12 Brass Dragon Light Green Swirls
13-14 Copper Dragon Light Blue Swirls
15 Bronze Dragon Brown Swirls
16 Silver Dragon White Swirls
17 Gold Dragon Dark Green Swirls
18-19 Evil Dragon No Swirls – DM's choice
20 Good Dragon Black Swirls – DM's choice
9 Elixir of Health vapors Pink creamy consistency, smoky odor and greasy taste
10-11 Elixir of Madness Iridescent Pink, greasy in consistency, with a rank odor and a herbal taste
12 Elixir of Youth vaporous Light Green lumpy in consistency, with a carrion-like odor and, a bitter taste
13 ESP flecked Red & Green with Blue Swirls, oily consistency, intoxicating odor, and a sour trade
14-15 Extra Healing effervescent Bright Blue w/ White Sediment frothy consistency, wooden odor & an acidic taste
16 Fire Breath layered Yellow & Orange solid dehydrated consistency perfume-like odor & a greasy taste
17 Fire Resistance flecked Orange, smooth consistency, greasy odor and a metallic taste
18 Flying Blue & White Swirls, creamy consistency, Heavenly odor and a rotten taste
19 Gaseous Form Green w/ Gray Sediment, watery consistency, intoxicating odor and a bitter taste
20 DM's choice
3-4 on d6
d20
1 Giant Control bubbling Light Tan, greasy in consistency, with a rank odor and a herbal taste
D20
1-5 Hill Giant Green
6-9 Stone Giant Gray
10-13 Frost Giant White
14-17 Fire Giant Red
18-19 Cloud Giant Blue
20 Storm Giant Opaque Black

2 Giant Strength translucent White w/ Green Sediment, creamy consistency, smells of Usk Wood, taste like Honey
D20
1-5 Hill Giant Green
6-9 Stone Giant Gray
10-13 Frost Giant White
14-17 Fire Giant Red
18-19 Cloud Giant Blue
20 Storm Giant Opaque Black flecks

3 Growth luminous Tangerine Swirls, molasses- consistency, fruity, odor and a sweet taste
4-5 Healing luminous Bright Blue creamy consistency, Heavenly odor and a rotten taste
6 Heroism opaque White Frothy consistency, a wooden odor and a salty taste
7 Human Control flecked Lavender, oily consistency, bitter odor and fiery taste
D20
1-2 Dwarves Red
3-4 Elves/Half-Elves Green
5-6 Gnomes Gray
7-8 Halflings Brown
9-10 Half-Orcs Blue
11-16 Humans Yellow
17-19 Humanoids (gnolls, orcs, ect) light blue
20 Elves, Half-elves, and Humans Thin White

8 Invisibility translucent dark salmon, water consistency, intoxicating odor and a bitter taste
9 Invulnerability translucent Iron Gray solid dehydrated consistency, a rank odor and bitter in taste
10 Levitation Iridescent Purple, gelatinous in consistency, fetid odor and a milky taste
11 Longevity smoky White w/ Black Sediments pus-like consistency, fruity odor, and sweet to the taste
12 Oil of Acid Resistance Blue and Gray Swirls watery consistency, fruity odor, and bitter in taste
13 Oil of Disenchantment Iridescent Yellow, oily in consistency, oily smell and sweet taste
14 Oil of Elemental Invulnerability clouded Red, creamy in consistency, burnt wood smell, taste like fish
D4
1 Air Elemental White Swirls
2 Earth Elemental Brown Swirls
3 Fire Elemental Yellow Swirls
4 Water Elemental Blue Swirls
15 Oil of Etherealness clear Light Blue, smooth consistency, smells of flowers and taste like nut meat
16 Oil of Fiery Burning Red, Orange and Yellow Swirls thick in consistency, smells of honey and hot
17 Oil of Fumbling Light Gold, oily in consistency, oily smell and sweet taste
18 Oil of Impact Iridescent Red, creamy in consistency, an alcoholic odor and a buttery taste
19 Oil of Slipperiness Iridescent Gray, creamy consistency, smells of Usk Wood, taste like Honey
20 DM’s choice

5-6 on d6
D20
1 Oil of Timeliness luminous with a dark green cream color, creamy consistency, perfume-like odor and no taste
2 Philter of Glibness Off White thick in consistency, smells of earth and tastes like chocolate
3 Philter of Love Iridescent Red w/ White Sediment, frothy in consistency rank odor and a sweet taste
4 Philter of Persuasiveness Opalescent, greasy consistency, with a carrion-like odor and, a meaty taste
5 Philter of Stammer & Stutter Yellow-orange thick in consistency, smells of honey and hot
6 Plant Control Green w/ Orange Sediment frothy in consistency, a rank odor and a sweet taste
7-8 Poison Gray-green, creamy in consistency, an alcoholic odor and a buttery taste
9 Polymorph Self Orange w/ Blue Sediment, oily in consistency, fishy odor and oily in taste
10 Rainbow Hues White, Red, and Green Swirls, thick in consistency, smells of honey and taste like nut meat
11 Speed Black w/ Yellow Swirls, has a creamy consistency, with a carrion-like odor and lemony taste
12-13 Super-Heroism White w/ Blue Sediment oily in consistency, oily taste and sweet taste
14 Sweet Water Cherry Red, watery consistency, intoxicating odor and a sweet taste
15 Treasure Finding flecked silver and gold, pus-like consistency, metallic smell and sweet to the taste
16 Undead Control Midnight Blue, sticky in consistency, smells of honey and taste like roast beast
D10
1 Ghasts Green Sediment
2 Ghosts Red Sediment
3 Ghouls Yellow Sediment
4 Shadows Brown Sediment
5 Skeletons Orange Sediment
6 Spectres Purple Sediment
7 Wights White Sediment
8 Wraiths Black Sediment
9 Vampires Navy Sediment
10 Zombies Gold Sediment
17 Ventriloquism Yellow-green, viscous in consistency, smells of honey and taste like wood bark
18 Vitality Pink w/ Red Sediment, well mixed consistency, incense odor and a Blackroot taste
19 Water Breathing Clear Shimmering, rich in consistency, fatty smell and sweet taste
20 DM’s choose from one of the following.
1 Elixir of Life pale yellow with green sediment, thick, smells sweet and taste like raw coffee
2 Potion of Fire Breath translucent red, watery, smells of peppers, and taste meaty-like
3 Philter of Beauty lavender, foamy, smells like molded earth, and taste like rain water
4 Philter of Glibness carbonated orange smells like sweat, and taste like garlic

Clerics in their own temples

Subject: [GREYTALK] Clerics in their own temples
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:15:52 -0600
From: "Winsor, Marc [IBM]"
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

We were playing the other night and part of the adventure we were battling some clerics in their temple, trying to shut it down. We have some special rules for clerics in their own temples and I was wondering if any of you do something similar.

These effects take place when any type of battle takes place within the grounds consecrated to the Deity.

*** Minor Shrine - defined to be any building/site dedicated to a deity with at least 10 worshippers.
- Clerics:
Bless Spell

*** Shrine - defined to be any building/site dedicated to a deity and presided over by a cleric of level 1-3 or 50 worshippers.
- Clerics:
+1 save on all saving throws
Bless + Chant
- Worshippers:
Bless Spell
- Foes:
Curse (reversed Bless) Spell

*** Minor Temple - defined to be any building/site dedicated to a deity and presided over by a cleric of level 3-7, or with at least 10(1 or more lvl 2+) clerics, or 500
worshippers.
- Clerics:
+ 2 to all saving throws
+3/+3 To Hit/Damage
Not affected by Fear of any sort
- Worshippers:
+1 To all Saves
Bless+Chant
- Foes:
-1 to all Saves
-2/-2 To Hit/Damage

*** Temple - Defined to be any building/site dedicated to a deity and presided over by a cleric of level 8-12, or at least 15(1 or more lvl 5+) clerics, or 1000 worshippers.
- Clerics:
+ 3 to all Saves
+4/+4 To Hit/Damage
Not affected by Fear of any sort
Spells work at maximum effectiveness.
- Worshippers
+ 2 to all saving throws
+3/+3 To Hit/Damage
Not affected by Fear of any sort
- Foes:
-2 on all Saves
-3/-3 To Hit/Damage
Spells 25% chance to fail
Must save vs Fear each turn or flee from Divine Wrath

Additional:
For every cleric killed there is a cumulative chance a minion of the Deity will appear to take vengeance.

- The way we figure the percentage is to divide 100 by the number of clerics,
ex. 10 clerics 100 / 10 = 10%. 10% for the first killed, 20% for the next,
etc..
If all clerics are killed, a minion will definitely appear.
- If the temple is destroyed and desecrated, a permanent Divine Curse
of -1/-1 To Hit/Damage affects all involved.

***Major Temple - Defined to be any building/site dedicated to a deity and presided over by a cleric of level 12+, or at least 25(2 or more 8+) clerics, or 5000+ worshippers.
- Clerics:
Automatically make all Saves
Always hit( as long as attack is feasible), +6 Damage
Not affected by Fear of any sort
Spells work at double maximum effectiveness(range, duration, damage, 1/2 casting time, etc)
- Worshippers
Aid spell
+ 3 to all saving throws
+4/+4 To Hit/Damage
Not affected by Fear of any sort
- Foes:
-5 on all Saves
-3/-3 To Hit/Damage
Spells 50% chance to fail
Spells work at minimum effectiveness
Must save vs spells every other round of take 1-4 pts of damage.

Additional:
Same chance for minion to appear at the death of a cleric(see Temple) if 50% of clerics are killed, Deity's avatar will appear. If temple is destroyed and desecrated, some type of Divine Curse appropriate to the Deity affects all people involved.

Marc Winsor

The Passage to Manhood - long

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 99 14:48PM PDT
From: "Brian A. Murphy" Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] The Passage to Manhood - long

When one of the players characters was killed in the Abyss by the HrathnirDemon, he started a new character from Maldev. The character's name was Feather and he was a barbarian from the mountains around Kandelspire. Given the nature of Maldev's plight, I thought it quite reasonable when the player wanted to play a CN character.

Once the party re-entered the Abyss after defeating Lolth's armies at Kandelspire, the character returned with the rest of the party to Oerth. The problem was, he was 8th level and still needed to be trained by someone. Talking with Jontash about the probable location of Barbarian tribes that would be compatible with him (CN) he was directed towards the east coast, where he encountered the Tribe of Strong Spirits.

This is one of the smaller tribes that had joined the rest of the barbarian hordes in decimating Ratik (IMC they don't get along and have been trying to take the more fertile, lower lands for centuries). When Feather came upon them, they had lands in and around the border of Ratik and the Bone March. There is a real hot-zone between old Ratik and the Bone March, mainly due to the Barbarians.

At any rate, he needed to become a member of the tribe in order to train, and I had to write up something to explain why (and how) they let him into the tribe.

The following then, is what I came up with to explain the tribal adoption.
=======================================
The Passage to Manhood
Excerpted from:
Observations on the Primitives in the Barbarian Reaches
Kynle Saru
Anthropological Humanologist
College of Greyhawk
=======================================
The Passage to Manhood within the Tribe of Strong Spirits consists of seven stages:

The first step, named by the tribe as the Learning of Honor (a rather blatant misnomer in my book), is a rather twisted period for the initiate wherein the Elders of the tribe attempt to humiliate and demean the applicant, confusing him with contradictory and unpredictable commands and edicts.

The novice is the runner, gopher, servant and slave to everyone with the coveted second name in the tribe. The prospect is addressed in various uncomplimentary ways, from "Scum-licker: to :Schmegma-breath" and is expected to not only acknowledge and even thank the elder for the accurate observation of character, but must perform whatever despicable service the Elder requires at the time. From ditch digging to hunting to -----shoveling, no task is too low for the manling.

It is expected that the apprentice gains some higher meaning from this abuse, although this researcher has been unable to determine what beneficial effect this has on the prospective warrior other than to perpetuate the unpredictability of the tribe.

The second stage of the Passage is the Testing of Honor. If the manling survives the Learning (many don't), there is a rigorous ceremony centered on the adolescent. He is placed in the center of the tribal circle and all Elders (male, of course) begin by imbuing him with "The Essence and Wisdom of the Elders" (they urinate all over him). Then, he is made to stomp around inside the circle and amongst the steaming coals of the tribal fire, that all present may be aware of his level of wisdom. Apparently, the more powerful the aroma, the more he has learned.

Drinking of the Blood of the Tribe (a strong concoction brewed by the Shaman), the novice's eyes are opened to the Spirit World. He is then instructed to go out across the Lands of Death and bring back his Adult Spirit.

The novice then, under the light of the full moon, leaves the circle and runs into the night. This begins the third stage, called the Search of the Spirit. Howling and screeching to terrify the spirits of the tribe's dead enemies, the apprentice sheds all coverings and tools, to show the Earth Mother that ne needs nothing other than the Wisdom of the Tribe to survive her torment. Then, prior to first light, he must track down a wild creature and bring it to the Shaman alive in his arms. (Given the extreme hallucinogenic and anesthetic effects of the Blood of the Tribe, I have been unable to judge the veracity of any tales told of the Search by the Elders. A common thread appears to be dangerous spirit enemies intent on enslaving and eating the hunter.)

It should be noted that many of those who survived the Learning fail the Search and never return to the tribe. Although tribal members take this to be a sign of unworthiness, the reality may be something else entirely. While the tribe claims much of the surrounding territory as its own, there are many wild areas nearby, in "claimed" lands. Many dangerous denizens inhabit the area including trolls, lamias, displacer beasts and the occasional owl bear. Despite tribal claims that "no creature would be stupid enough to challenge our might," it should be noted that the Testing is one of the few times that a tribal member travels in open lands alone.

When the apprentice returns, bleeding and broken into the circle, the Shaman takes the animal from the novice. At this point, the apprentice is draped to the Women's Circle for the Test of Vitality, the fourth stage of the Passage. (This researcher has not borne witness to this test, but, in seeing the preparations, I shudder to think of its' implications. Ropes, feathers, stones tied together and oddly shaped sticks of wood are all laid out amongst a large bed of leaves. Various oils and liniments are also present, their use unknown. It wasn't the items themselves that disturbed me so; it was the suggestive gestures and odd looks on the part of the women when they noticed me observing them that caused me to beat a hasty retreat...)

At first light on the following day, after the novice returns from the Women's Circle -- if he returns, I noted that some young men ran kicking and wailing back to the whelps' huts -- he begins the fifth stage, the Claiming of Title. Otherwise known as The Telling, this period in the ritual seems to center on braggery and exaggeration, as the tales told rarely resemble probable circumstances. The initiate tells of his exploits, in the Hunt, in Battle, and in any other endeavor he feels can
increase his appearance to the tribe. I have heard many detailed accounts of applicants' slaying gigantic monsters with nothing but grass blades, toe-nails and even belly-lint! Tales of novices overcoming their enemies with nothing but the wisdom of the tribe (they seem to have a thing for aromatic attacks) and even exploits with women which seem physically impossible.

Once complete, the novice is then blindfolded, gagged and bound. Placed in a hole, he is then buried near the tribal graveyard to await the sixth stage of the Passage, the Decision of the Elders. This too, is a difficult time for the initiate, as the Elders must decide the validity of the novice's claims. Many times I have seen a prospect reach this step only to fail, not because the Elders decided against him, but because their decision was too late in coming.

Usually, as long as the Elders do not forget about the novice they will eventually decide to name him. Finally, after the novice is dug up and revived, the Elders then bestow the Tribal Name on the new adult. This name, while ostensibly a result of The
Telling, sometimes is the result of the Elders latching onto one facet of the tale found most memorable and expounding upon it. It should be noted that this tends to be something the Elders by consensus find amusing and derogatory to the apprentice. The end result appears to depend on a multitude of factors: the entertainment value of the tale, how well the initiate is looked upon by the Elders, the probability that the novice could be telling the truth, the whispers of the womenfolk and (probably most importantly), the ratio of hung-over to still-intoxicated Elders still conscious at the naming.
===================================================

The Learning of Honor -- You hung in there and did whatever was asked!

The Search of the Spirit -- You returned with a wild boar.

The Testing of Vitality -- You awoke in the morning staked naked to the ground. The tribal women were all around you and seemed very pleased and strangely content?!?!?!?!

The Telling -- You described your tale of other worlds and Demon Queens, death and destruction, (completely true, who needs to embellish that wild of a story?) but they didn't buy it. In fact, they kept interrupting and cracking jokes, mostly centered on how well your skull "served" you (side note: The character had taken a goblin's skull and stuck it on one of his armor's shoulder spikes as kind of a warped second head. He was quite proud of it). You didn't get the joke, but they found it extremely amusing.

The Naming -- After waking up coughing dirt (and having strange dreams to boot), you are brought back to the center of the Elders. Bleary eyed and cringing in the light of the sun, the Chieftain and other look upon you and bestow your name:

Feather Skull-Humper

And you are accepted into the tribe!

You train and are at the next level, ready to return to Hillville.

Brian A. Murphy, MCP
Eikon Consulting Services
http://www.eikoncs.com

Forbidden Lore

From LESENEY@accuwx.com Thu Oct 26 00:39:33 1995
Subject: Forbidden Lore
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Hello fellow Greyhawkers,

While this is not Greyhawk specific, I noticed a few comments of late that some members do not have access to some 1st edition books. As a service I will reproduce some of the "Ancient Lore" that I discovered in my research concerning Arch-Devils, The Dukes and Hell and their organization. I was prompted to look for Baalzephon's rank in the old pecking order by the recent discussion and thought I would pass along some of my findings.

(Note: all information was gathered using 1st edi. MM, MM2, Manual of the Planes)

There are 8 Arch-Devils and one Chromatic Dragon that rule the nine planes of Hell, they are as follows:

Planes of Hell Ruler
-------------- -----
1st - Avernus Tiamat
2nd - Dis Dispater
3rd - Minauros Mammon
4th - Phlegethos Belial
5th - Stygia Geyron
6th - Malbolge Moloch/Baalzebul
7th - Maladomini Baalzebul
8th - Caina Mephistopheles
9th - Nessus Asmodeus

Note: Moloch rules the 6th Plane of Hell for his liege Baalzebul and is given the alternate classification as a Grand Duke, Viceroy of Hell, thus not quite a true arch-devil.

In addition there are the Dukes of Hell, the "trusted" servants of the Arch-Fiends. The MM2 describes them as about equal in power to a weaker arch-devil, although some are but little stronger than a pit fiend, or are, in fact, actual pit fiends.

Please note that our favorite Duke, Baalzephon, is the PRIME Minister of Hell. Kind of funny how that is, considering his involvement in the prime material plane of Oerth. Anyway, I hope someone can use this to further define the heirarchy of the Lower Planes.

Name In the Service Of Command or Position
---------- --------------------- --------------------
Abigor Baalzebul 60 companies of horned devils
Andonides Mephistopheles Steward
Adramelech Asmodeus Chancellor
Agares Geyron 31 companies of bone devils
Alastor Asmodeus Executioner
Alocer Dispater 36 companies of erinyes
Amduscias Tiamat 29 companies of abishai
Amon Geyron 40 companies of bone devils
Arioch Dispater Avenger
Baalberith Asmodeus Major domo
Baalphegor Mephistopheles Consort
Baalzephon Dispater Prime Minister
Bael Mammon 66 companies of barbed devils
Balan Belial 40 companies of bearded devils
Barbas Mephistopheles Chamberlain
Barbatos Baalzebul Marshal
Bathym Belial 30 companies of barbed devils
Bel Dispater 3 companies of horned devils
Bele Mephistopheles Justiciar
Bensozia Asmodeus, Baalzebul Consort
Bethage Moloch 9 companies of horned devils
Biffant Dispater Provost
Bifrons Mephistopheles 26 companies of ice devils
Bileth Moloch Tribune
Bitru Dispater 70 companies of erinyes
Buer Asmodeus 15 companies of pit fiends
Bune Asmodeus 30 companies of horned devils
Caarcrinolaas Mammon 36 companies of barbed devils
Chamo Belial Legate
Cozbi Geyron Consort
Fecor Geyron 8 companies of horned devils
Focalor Mammon Seneschal
Furcas Dispater 12 companies of bearded devils
Gaziel Belial 11 companies of bone devils
Glasya Mammon Consort; daughter of Asmodeus
Goap Tiamat 3 companies of erinyes
Gorson Geyron, Baalzebul Bailiff
Herobaal Moloch 16 companies of bone devils
Herodias Geyron Magistrate
Hutijin Mephistopheles 2 companies of pit fiends
Lilis Dispater Consort
Lilith Moloch Consort
Machalas Geyron 11 companies of barbed devils
Malphas Tiamat 40 companies of abishai
Martinet Asmodeus Constable
Melchon Mammon 18 companies of erinyes
Merodach Dispater 21 companies of barbed devils
Morax Asmodeus 9 companies of pit fiends
Naome Belial Consort
Neabaz Baalzebul Herald
Nexroth Mephistopheles 16 companies of horned devils
Phongor Asmodeus Inquisitor
Rimmon Asmodeus 5 companies of ice devils
Tartach Moloch Legate
Titvilus Dispater Nuncio
Zaebos Belial Lieutenant
Zagum Asmodeus 30 companies of barbed devils
Zapan Belial 4 companies of horned devils
Zepar Baalzebul 28 companies of horned devils
Zimimar Mammon 6 companies of bone devils

Armors in Greyhawk

Subject: [GREYTALK] Armors in Greyhawk (was leath armor)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:49:06 EDT
From: "Jay Alexander Hafner D.C."
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Here's what I use in my Greyhawk campaign to make armor a bit 'cooler.' It includes the "Hard Studded Leather" that is currently being spoken of.

Appendix Armor Shop of Bleredd
"The best way to a man's heart is to saw his breast plate open." -Eclavdra,
Priestess of Lolth and Iuz.

Type of Armor AC Cost Wt Move/Dex DMg.Soak Notes
Full plate AC 1 5000 gp. 70 lb. 6/-2 3
Dwur steel plate mail AC 2 25,000gp. 75 lb. 6/-3 3 A&E.
+6 save to armor damage save.
Field plate AC 2 2500 gp. 60 lb. 6/-2 2
Dragon scale mail AC 3 50,000+ 50 lb. 6/-2 2
Plate mail AC 3 600 gp. 50 lb. 6/-2 2
Banded mail AC 4 200 gp. 35 lb. 9/-1 1
Splint mail AC 4 180 gp. 40 lb. 6/-1 1
Improved mail AC 4 175 gp. 50 lb. 9/-1 1 PO:S&P
Half plate w/leather AC 4 300 gp. 40 lb. 9/-1 1 PO:S&P
Chain mail AC 5 100 gp. 40 lb. 9 1
Dwur chain mail AC 5 130 gp. 40 lb. 9/ 1 This is fine chain
mail that is nearly non-bulky
Olven fine mail AC 5 1500 gp. 20 lb. 12 - Weighs 1/2 as
much. Must be exactly sized to fit. Never made for non-elves. Usually made
of mithril and fit for enchantment.
Impr. brigandine AC 5 120 gp. 45 lb. 9 -
Breastplate & leather AC 6 60 gp. 25 lb. 9 - Typical
pikemen armor in Perrenland. (PO:S&P) No helm included.
Brigandine AC 6 100 gp. 35 lb. 9 -
Scale mail AC 6 60 gp. 40 lb. 6 1 Great
Helm included. This may be made from coins occasionally.
Sea olven scale mail AC 6 6000 gp. 25 lb. 9 - This
armor is legendarily rare.
Bone or wood AC 7 40 gp. 25 lb. 8 - Only used by some
Baklunish and the Rovers of the Barrens.
Noniz studded L. AC 7 10-15x 25 lb. 12/6 - A&E. Acts as
'no armor' for thieving skill armor adjustment
Leather scale AC 7 25 gp. 25 lb. 9 - D189. Originates in
the Baklunish lands.
Ring mail AC 7 40 gp. 30 lb. 9 1 Steel cap
included.
Studded leather AC 7 20 gp. 25 lb. 9 - Leather cap included.
Hard studded leather AC 7 25 gp 30 lb. 9 1-> (wooden blunt
weapons only)
Spiked leather AC 7 30gp 25 lb. 9 - A&E.
Noniz leather AC 8 50 gp 10 lb. 12/6 - A&E. Acts as 'no
armor' for thieving skill armor adjustment
Hobniz leather AC 8 10-15x 10 lb. 12/6 - A&E. Acts as 'no
armor' for thieving skill armor adjustment
Leather AC 8 5 gp 15 lb. 12 -
Padded AC 8 4 gp 10 lb. 12 (9wet) 1à (club or staff
only)
Training AC 8 5 gp 15 lb. 9 (6wet) 1 (wood)
DANN3 Hvy cloth w/wood or leather over stomach & chest.
Poshteen/Cassock AC 9 6 gp. 5 lb. 12 - D189 Heavy
sheepskin coat. May be worn by mages (5% spl.fail). +1 vs. cold saves.
Quilted linen AC 9 10 gp 10lb 12(wet-9) - D189 Thief:
+5% M/S & C/W. Excellent in cold weather.
Clothing AC10 Varies <5lbs 12/+2dx - No armor
decreases your 'suspicion' rating ;)

Shield
Body/Wall (-3) 10 gp 15 lb. (-2)/-1 1 A penalty of
-1 is applied to initiative. AKA: Large shield. Can block 4 foes.
Medium (-2) 7 gp 10 lb. (-1)/-1 1 A penalty of -1 is
applied to initiative. Can block 3 foes. AKA: Kite shield
Small/Normal (-1) 3 gp 5 lb. -/- - Can block 2 foes.
AKA: Normal shield
Buckler (-1) 1 gp 3 lb. -/- - Can block one
foe. If spiked, can be used to do 1d3 damage but lose AC bonus.
*HR: If you draw a unique, colored symbol for your shield, I will give you
100 x.p.

Helmet
Great helm AC 1 30 gp. 10 lb. - Head and neck
protected. Surprise is -2. Reduces critical head/neck dmg by ½.
Basinet AC 3 8 gp. 5 lb. - Closed face helm protects
head/face. Surpirse is -1. Reduces critical head dmg by ½.
Steel Cap AC 5 5 gp/ 3 lb. - Open faced helm
protecting the head. Reduces critical head damage by 1/3.
Chain Mail Coif AC 5 10 gp 4 lb. - Protects head and neck. May
be worn under helms. Reduces critical head/neck dmg by 2.
Leather Cap/Hood AC 8 1 gp. * * Protects head and
neck. Reduces critical head damage by ¼.
~ Helmets: Chainmail and better armor suits come with a helmet. Banded and
better come with protective steel gauntlets (AC 3) and a great helm.

Other Protections
Kantha-trana/Gorget AC 8 3 gp 2 lb. - D189 Neck armor
negates decapitation and strangulation attacks (+2 saves).
Steel Gauntlets AC 3 10 gp. 4 lb. - Protects the hands and wrists
f/ criticals (dec. ½). Dex is reduced by 2 for fine motor skills.
Codpiece AC 3 10 gp. 3 lb. - Protects the gonads
from criticals. Reduces by ½.
Grieves, boots, gloves, archery bracers, etc. vary for bonuses.

Specific Armor Rulings
1. HR: Dexterity Penalty . Note that the Dex Penalty applies to any relative
DEX-based skill (not missile attacks or AC bonus). Each magical bonus also
reduces the dexterity penalty by one.
2. HR: Damage Soaking Ability. In addition to those armor points in the Fighters HB, armor will automatically reduce a number of points of damage per hit (minimum is one point). If the armor sustains damage from a critical and fails a crushing blow save, it no longer absorbs damage and must be repaired to be back to normal.
3. HR: Demi-human Armor is Smaller and Weighs Less. Human/Half-Euroz/Euroz 100%; Dwarf -15%; Elf - 20%; Gnomish - 40%; Half-elf - 10%; Halfling - 55%; The cost to make custom armor that weighs less is + 30%.
4. ROE: Specific racial armor may only be made by that particular race and it costs 15 times as much if it is being made for a race different from the armorer.
5. ROE: Movement rates of the different armor types are a general suggestion. If you want to figure out your individual encumbrance, and go from there, that's ok.

Jay Hafner

Greyhawk Corruption

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Greyhawk Corruption (Was:What to do with evil?)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:25:54 +1200
From: P Schmidt
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Draco and Co wrote and replied..
> > I find that having members of the thieves guild sit on the directing
> > oligarchy give the city much flavor.
> > Really? Assassins and Thieves in charge of the greatest city in the
Flanaess is what gives Greyhawk its flavor?
> > I find if oppressive and unjust. It offends my personal sense of Ma'at
and changes Greyhawk from a "Free City" to an "Apparently Free City".
>

Anything that can add drama to game by definition adds - flavour. The real questioin then is is it a flavour you like. When you think it through an arrangment as tilted as the current ruling oligachy gives a lot of scope for some clever roeplaying, conflicts of interest and intrigue - surely the flavour you want..

You then go on to say...
> If people get sent to the labor camps for minor offenses just because
Greyhawk is low on labor, and if fines are increased to finance operations (or so
I've read COG box set, GHTaB. etc.), while at the same time the thieves guild
sucks up more and more revenue from the city, it seems certain to me that
>Greyhawk is headed for disaster.

The problem here is what you consider to be justice. Rememer we are playing in a pseudo-medieval genre. The laws and punishments as described are remarkably ENLIGHTENED for their times, something the folk of Greyhawk are probably well aware of the. The problem is one of relativisim - we live in an eglitarean democracy. But medieval society, even high-pseudo-medieval is short brutal and nasty. Two comparisons might help - in Roman times people escaped their own countries and rulers to try and live under Roman Law, even when they weren't citizens. The law, brutal by our standards was still the best law around - and people knew it. In a more modern comparison, the former head of the KGB was asked why the USSR had always allowed Romania such a free hand within the old communist sphere. He replied, tongue in
cheek, that Russia had a problem with Romanian peasants espcaping to Russia to live and work. Knowing how bad things were in Russia, the Soviets concluded that Romania must be even worse run than Russia and so could hardly ever present a threat to them.
The same rules apply for Greyhawk. By comparison to neighbouring states and by the standrds of the times, the laws are fair. A quick one-off Law: The Olde English Law of the Four Footed. "Kill or steal a mans hound, goat or cow and ye shall be put to death" Why? Becuase without a dog, cow or goat a peasant would starve over winter. What's fair is all a matter of realtive wealth.

> Instead robbery will be committed in a government regulated way.
> I'm not impressed by these fringe benefits.
> I don't think the population would be either, if they knew about it.

Hmmm... try reading the trade histories of the Hessiantic League, the Papal States (Romagna), Macao or of Florence. Its, sadly a common way of doing business. And VERY profitable. The hard thing is getting the mix of sanctioned crime vs trade just right...

> > Finally with thieves in control of the city they labor to create an
> > environment where the city is flourishing, so that they can always draw
> > new wealth to the city to steal.

Correct... look at crime vs protection vs the english silk industry - a perfect example...

Pope Ug

What to do with evil?

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] What to do with evil?
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:03:19 -0500
From: Dracos
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Scott Casper wrote:

> Dracos wrote:
>
> >1. Has the priest or paladin made a reasonable effort to give these >priests
> over to the proper authorities?
> >2. Have they tried to consult Mayaheine, whether by divination spells or
> >simple prayer for enlightenment?
> >3. Have they asked the party for their ideas on avoiding execution of the
> >prisoners, or finding another means, however inconvenient, to bring them >to
> justice?
> >4. Is their quest one of importance, or is it merely meant to enrich the
> >party? (Is success worth more than money on their quest?)
> [snippped]
>
> #1 is alright in a city adventure, but it is generally accepted that dungeons
> are unlawful places outside of any respectable authority, where PCs are free
> to make their own rules.

I'm not sure I agree with that last bit. A lawful character probably doesn't feel that it's ok to act illegally just because he's currently out of reach of the authorities. Under no circumstances would a paladin "make his own rules". That being said, I'd love to be a paladin in *your* campaign. ;-) I put a lot of pressure on them to be perfect.

> #2 seems too restrictive if the DM expects the PC todo this each and every
> time the situation comes up. Rather, a smart cleric or paladin will ask his
> superiors in the church when it is okay for him to kill before he even goes on
> his first adventure.

Players rarely exhibit that kind of foresight, and there's always a random element because individuality will make a broad generalization useless. The priest should offer a prayer even if the chance of any omen is 1% or less, giving the deity an opportunity to stop it before it happens is an absolute necessity. It's not easy guessing a god's plan, and the priest must have faith that the will of the deity will make itself known *somehow*

> An oath to the deity asking for an angel (Deva, Planetar, etc.) to judge the combat must be
> undertaken by both combatants.
> [snipped]
>
> Whoa! Magic-rich campaign alert! The 1st level PCs I DM for can ask for an
> angel until they turn blue in the face. It ain't gonna happen!

Maybe not, but that doesn't mean the characters shouldn't ask for god to oversee the combat. Just because it doesn't happen doesn't mean it's not the way it *should* work. Besides, how would the player know if the minion is there or not? It's not like they check in, or show up with a big court of law, and jury... They preside over the proceedings invisibly, as do most angels when dealing with mortals. But that's not important.

The point is that lawful combat is "Combat in the sight of God" and as such, I believe that in a fantasy campaign, cheating after swearing before the gods should carry *some* penalty.

--
Alex Nuta
dracos@videotron.ca
Home Page: http://pages.infinit.net/dracos
Greychat Mail List: Subscribe at greychat-subscribe@egroups.com
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ICQ:33389188

Re: Levels and Ability Scores

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Levels and Ability Scores [NGC]
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:36:35 -0500
From: Scott Casper
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Hi again, all! I'm getting sleepy!

Jon Wilson wrote this afternoon about advancing ability scores, and like all things not specifically relating to GREYHAWK, it sparked a lot of discussion. In case you missed it, his orginal post was the following:

> IMO one of the biggest weaknesses of the AD&D system is that regardless how
> high a character rises in level there is no way for him or her to raise an
> ability score (referring to Str, Int and the rest) through non-magical
> means. For a while I have been working on a game mechicanic(sp) based on
> the Unearthed Arcana's Cavalier class to allow the characters IMC to raise
> one prime requisite a little bit per level gained(1d10). I have had limited
> success as PC don't gain levels at a high rate and so they don't see the
> improvement... i'm currently toying with the idea of basing the increase on
> XP's and not level so that every 2000XP's x the level of the character the
> pc would get 1d10 hundredths of a point in a prime requisite....
>
> this allows rouges to get more nimble mages to get smarter and Clerics more
> Wise without the DM having to stage a you find a stash of Manuals and Tomes
> that raise your stats....

Now, Russ Taylor and Nathanael Wentz have already debated the issue of whether or not this should be done at all in one's campaign, and while Russ may not agree, I think that both of them have done a good job at listing the pros and cons. Keep in mind the nature of the two men arguing, though. Russ is a free spirit, whose house rules are numerous, and who's Website, "Greyhawk Goodies," contains some very interesting alternate rules. Nathanael is an ardent stickler to the Words as written by Gary Gygax, and has defended the Players Handbook, as written, before on this list. It seems to me that anyone speaking on this position will fall into one camp or the other.

Also, Jon Wilson has spoken up again to add that his system would only raise Ability scores up to racial maximums, and no higher. That's good, because that's one of the limitations I would have suggested as being necessary to make his system playable.

I would go farther to suggest that Ability advancement should be either limited to Prime Requisites, or that it should be harder to advance non-Prime Requisite Abilities. This seems to me to be more in keeping with the Class system, and will keep higher level characters from all being maxed out with 18's.

Allowing Ability score advancement every 2,000 xp also sounds excessive, given how frequently high level PCs will gain 2,000 xp. The original idea of once per level should be kept.

Lastly, Pat Ellis wrote:
>I follow the 1st edition PHB (DMG?) when it talks about changing stats with
>age... most humans start as young adult, when they go to mature, I give them
>that point of Strength (or if at 18 I give 10%) and I think it is also 1
>point of Int or Wis....

It is exceedingly rare for a D&D campaign to last long enough where PC aging becomes a factor towards Ability scores. This sounds more like a Pendragon campaign, where the game spans several generations over a campaign.

Scott "Volstagg" Casper

All Yak-Men max out with 18's....and that's by the age of 6...

Re: Levels & Ability Scores

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Levels & Ability Scores
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:45:21 -0700
From: Russ Taylor
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

All of your examples _can_ be improved through training:

Schooling may not improve innate intelligence, but it certainly improved functional intelligence. Weight lifting and regular exercise can increase your strength (and bulk) substantially. And any martial arts student can tell you that emphasis on flexibility and control _do_ improve your balance and agility. A PC's stats shouldn't start "maxed" out, if only because that doesn't fit will with the genre OR with real life.

My own personal system: at each level, a player may roll 3d6 to try and beat an existing stat. If he does, the stat improves by one. If not, the stat that was trained is recorded, and the player gets an extra die (i.e. best 3 out of 4d6) the next time they try that particular stat. Process continues until the stat is improved.

The player must also spend time (one month) in an appropriate form of training to get the role -- but this can be dispersed over several adventures, and the opportunities can be stored up if the player levels several times. Also, the player must keep up "maintenance" training or the stat will reduce again -- i.e. a sedentary life will cost bonus strength points. They may be regained through the same process, without
spending advancement opportunties.

(this has become relevant when PCs were jailed)

Forms of training:

Strength: basic body building and exercise
Dexterity: work on balance, fencing, bodily motion, etc.
Constitution: endurance training (running, etc) and diet
Intelligence: study
Wisdom: meditation, seeking out philsophers, prayer
Charisma: hasn't come up, but schooling in etiquiette would qualify

On 5/24/99 3:10 PM, Nathanael D. Wentz (ndwentz@TELEBOT.NET) wrote

>To my mind, this is akin to gaining 2" in height due to your recent
>promotion. A fighter shouldn't bulk up from adventuring, he should fight
>smarter, not harder. This is not to say that he would gain intelligence,
>merely that he would apply what he knows to wield his weapons better.
>(Experience) Why would a mage get smarter? Does fighting a dragon
>stimulate nerve growth? Why should a thief get more nimble? Does stealing
>make one move more quickly? (If this were true, John Dillenger would have
>moved at superhuman speed.) A person's stats are considered to be the
>highest they could be within his or her own personal being. I.E., I can
>improve my strength with exercise, but there will come a time when I can
>not get any stronger. My bone structure simply won't support infinite
>strength. Thus, the average person's stats could be displayed as low, or
>could be shown as high, but are temporarily lower than spec. Similarly,
>the learning experiences a child goes through use its innate intelligence
>to enhance its knowledge. The number of brain cells does not increase.
>When starting play at 1st level, a PC's stats are as high as they will go,
>by natural means.
--
Russ Taylor (rtaylor@cmc.net, http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/)
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