Oeridian Origins

 From: Noel Graham [vision.at.work@JUNO.COM]

Sent ; Saturday, November 21, 1998 2:14 PM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Oeridian Origins (was AGGHHHAA!!!!)

Now, imagine if the Oeridians were once an evolved culture from the region now known as the Land of Black Ice. After some cataclysmic event, most of the survivors were forced into a nomadic role. Perhaps some small facet of their culture, much defeated, even alien by current standards, remains in Blackmoor. Or, perhaps Blackmoor developed from a rival or subjugated/subservient (formery dependent?) culture making use of the remains (or dealing proximately with them).

The Oeridians may have had an advanced seafaring aspect, based around the Drawmidj. Upon the destruction/internal collapse of their society, they moved south and west along the coast into what is now the Baklunnish lands. Of course, some traveled even more south or east, but this discussion focuses on the coastal migrations.

Start with the Baklunnish indeed inhabiting the southerly realms of what today is said to be old Suel lands (Sea of Dust) and some amount of the Dry Steppes. Bring the Suel in from the SW and into conflict with the Baklunnish. This cultural clash, both militarily, magically, and philosophically (including religion) continues as the Suloise invaders press the Baklunnish ever northward.

The B. resist conquest, but the struggles are as much interrupted by the need for commerce to support the agricultural/lifestyle alterations occurring as part of the movements. Still, the enmities are deeply founded. After the eventual conflict of the Rain of Colorless Fire/Invoked Devastation, the B. are driven in whole northward to the Drawmidj coast.

During this time, the B. also came into conflict with the Oeridians. These embittered nomads had not the strength to resist the B. with some even becoming mercenary forces in the B./S. conflicts. Other tribes of the O. were absorbed into the B., with only the Uli retaining any significant territory unto itself. Over the course of events the momentum of the O. flow westward becomes reversed, sending what portion that retains its cultural/racial identity back into the Flanaess. There, they are followed, at least in some small part, by the B. (who pretty much stop at the Yatils).

The migratory chart of the races found in the '83 Guide (p. 10) is only partially accurate, then, as it does not reflect the "total" movements of the Oeridians and attempts to retrofit their presence south of the Burneal Forest by saying they expanded their population, while still being turned back by the Flannae (what? near) the modern (pre-Wars) Rovers holdings.

It seems far more likely the Oeridians integrated with the Flan inhabitants of the region to create the Chakyik and Wegweir. Still, the text (for the Wolf Nomads, at least) claims these nomads are of B. extraction, verily overlooking the equal O. presence indicated by the p.10 migrations map. For the purposes of explanation, consider that this quantification has been done relatively recently in Flanaess history.

Assuming the some amount of the O. did become racially absorbed by the B. moving northward (perhaps some were already present when the O. got there) from the south, this racial confusion is to be expected. The '83 box gave me a fit on this point when I first read it (oh, long enough ago). The O. were being characterized by their pure-blood appearance, which the cross-breeds didn't possess. The B. were being given credit for the rest, seemingly for no more reason than their historically recent presence west of the Yatils (they're nearby).

My apologies for not being more detailed (but not less long-winded ::smile::). I posted more elaborate explanations back at the beginning of the year, but they were generally overlooked then. Assuming my way of making things terribly complex is actually of interest to folks, I'll try to compile more of it together in the coming months for posting. (I say months because the holiday seasons are virtually upon us, and y'all know what a bear it is to work during them, and because of other projects *demanding* my time.)

Re: Earth Dragon & other mysteries

Hextor for RQ/Greyhawk

Gods, Oeridian and otherwise

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Re: Humanoids in Greyhawk

Date sent: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:24:10 +1000
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: “Valerian J. Vortex”
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Humanoids in Greyhawk
Originally to: Keith Horsfield
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Keith Horsfield wrote:

> I knew this was gonna resurface ;-) FWIW, I'm attempting to do
> two things here 1) Determine whether humanoids existed in the Flanaess
> east of the barrier mountains (Yatils/Barrier
> Peaks/Crystalmists/Hellfurnaces) and 2) Determine where the oerdians
> originally came from in accordance with published material (I.e. the
> migration maps and the relevant passages stating that humanoids drove
> the oeridians northward and eastward).
>
> As to #1 I'm leaning to the side that humanoids migrated along with
> the oerdians and suel.

I agree, but the term “humanoids” covers a lot of ground. The humanoid mercenaries used in the Bak-Suel wars were mostly Euroz IMC, so they migrated eastward. Other humanoids...well, this might take a while...

IMC, there are three basic races of humanoids: Euroz, Kell and Jebline. Kobolds (Celbit) are a small, cunning subspecies of Gnoll (Kell). Goblins (Jebline) are “fairies gone bad”, who usually harass humans by creating inconveniences – laming horses, stealing stuff, ruining crops – rather than risking open combat. Hojebline (hobgoblins) are bigger offshoots of the previous who lack the ability to create annoying cantrips. Hobgoblins are more inclined enter combat. As for Euroz, well an orc is an orc is an orc...

Anyway...

In prehistory, Olves, Dwur, and Kell fought over the Flanaess. The Flannae arrived later, after a particularly nasty period in the war, and were able to create a niche for themselves and defend it against all comers. This golden age of the Flanic culture is best remembered in the legends of Vecna, the Isle of Woe and the Ur Flanae, although most of the Flanae had access to only primitive technology. At the same time, the Suloise Empire was reaching its peak, and a number of Dwur, Kell and Olve kingdoms covered the Flanaess, existing at a late bronze age stage of development (with the Kell slightly behind).

The Kell in particular were hardest pressed by the human newcomers, and olven and dwur assistance (seeing the chance to cripple one of their ancestral foes) allowed the Flanae to virtually erase any traces of the Kell civilization. The ferocity of the Flanae surprised the Elves and Dwarves, and after the sacking of the Great Library of the Kell at Gvang-Oekugh, the allied policy successfully changed its emphasis to limited contact with the humans and to disrupt the cohesiveness and development of the “fast-breeding” Flanae.

It was against this backdro that the Oeridians arrived, with the Suloise and Euroz following shortly after: scattered outposts of (usually) backwards Flan with a wide variety of cultural identities (eg. Geoff -v- Tenh -v- Perrenland -v- the Rovers; see also “The Languages of Greyhawk” and occasional contacts with other demihumans suggesting well-established but hidden, Dwur and Olven governments. By this stage, the Kell had descended into the savagery by which they are known today. (Jebline had always existed in the same way that the dragons or the lizard men existed there, but not in numbers sufficient to form any social structure of notes.)

The newcomers arrived in such numbers and with such racial cohesiveness that the Dwuf and Olves could do little to prevent their overrunning the plains and grasslands of the Flanaess. After a few centuries, the demihumans began to appreciate that humans were generally more open to cooperation than the Euroz were, and negotiations formally recognised established understandings. Such negotiations have resulted in the recognition of the borders of Celene, the Spindrift Isles and the Highfolk (other demihuman kingdoms, such as the Olven realm of Gaolin in the Dreadwood, are generally not recognized by the more powerful human governments who claim their territories), or recognition of demihuman citizenship and participation in government (eg. Verbobonc or the Ulek states).

Well that's about it off the top of my head, if people want more details I'll have to cart my folder in from home.

Ken Barns
ex-Medical Student and Connoisseur of Life.

Re: The Duchy of Tenh (Scottish rite)

Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:14:21 -0700
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
From: “C. Jarvis” cjarvis@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] The Duchy of Tenh (Scottish rite)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

In response to Scott’s muchly deserved flaming of my posterior over the “You’re not Scot Mr. Jarvis” discussion of the Tenha:

---Ouch, that really hurt. But I must concede, Mr. Rennie, you would certainly know better than I. I must insist that I meant not to slight or insult with my missive.

>Ordinary?! ORDINARY!!!

----Okay, there are only extraordinarie Scots. I’m in the SCA, and there you cannot swing a stick without hitting a Scot. Or a Celt. Or a Norse for that matter…

>Oh yeah! Where in Scotland do you live – maybe we could meet up sometime?

---I am (or might be) related to any of several dead (ex-) Scots, Irish, Welsh, Brits, Dutch & the odd German (Quaker). I have not had the pleasure or oppurtunity to make my way to Scotland (yet); but I did float past it… I live in Seattle, which only shares a certain turn of weather with Scotland.

>Why? What are ‘the Scottish’ like?

---I imagine they are somewhat sensitive of any slights to their heritage. Any categorizations I would make would fall short of the entirety…

>The Scots tartans (not ‘plaid’ – a plaid is the name of the garment which t
>kilt originated from, not the pattern) were not originally so colorful as
>they once are, since old dyes tended to be made from natural sources.

---You know what a tartan is. I know what a tartan is. Under “Racial & National Dress” from WoG Gazeteer vol 3:

Oerdians typically favor checks and plaids. Aerdi and Nyrondal houses tend to wear plaids, while the southern and western Oeridians favor checks, often of a diamond pattern or similar variation from the standard square. Clothing tends toward tight-legged trousers, close-fitting upper garments, and capes or cloaks.

When I read this back in 1983 and was looking to find a flavor for the Oerdians it hit me that I could use an analog to the peoples of the British Isles. Considering that one of the major deities of the Oerdians is Procan, it supported the fact that they were sea-farers, or at least from a place by the sea (not south west of the Paynims & Ull).

>Also, the ’83 set states the ‘Flannae once wore brightly-hued body paints.’
>The name ‘Scot’ means ‘painted warrior’, taken from the old (ie pre-Roman)
>Scots habit of covering their entire bodies in (usually blue) war paint, so
>that even if they lost their clothes in battle they would not be naked.

----Are you a Wode-Warrior sir? Lots of peoples still wear or worn brightly-hued body paints. The ’83 says nothing of the Flani going into battle ‘sky-clad’.

[Text missing]

>existed).

---Addressed above.

>A borgue???

---No a brogue. I think this is an American thing. Every player I know gives his character an outrageous accent (done very badly). I have seen individuals from the region in question visibly wince upon hearing such absurd utterances. I don’t know why we do it…

>>Zilchus is very Scottish.
>I see – the ‘Scots as a bunch of tight-fisted money-grubbing skinflints
>stereotype’.

---joke, joke. I didn’t mean it. I take it back. Sorry, sorry.

>>And you really can’t say “Fharlanghn” without a slight lilt and
>>rolling your r’s.
>Well, I certainly can’t – but to be honest it sounds more Welsh to me, which
>brings me on to…
>>The double ‘l’ in Delleb becomes Welsh, and you are good to go.
>Good to go where? Wales maybe. The Welsh have nothing to do with the Scots!

---Geographically Wales and Scotland are connected (for better or worse) to the same land mass. If one extends the analogy of the Oeridians (a large diverse people) to the peoples of the British isles (say the Celts and earlier peoples), who are also diverse…then one could get away with such an act.

>Yep, you have no preference for any ract to be ‘Scottish’, but if you are goi
>to do it, get your facts right.

--I shall differ to you sir.

>Anyway, I think the Scots/Tenh link goes a lot further back than Braveheart
>I seem to remember asking before where it came from, and someone suggested
>EGG himself thought of it that way.

---I wouldn’t know. I grew up, gamed, and crafted my own version of WoG in the cultural wastelands of Montana. I’ve seen too many of EGG’s pontificating rants to take anything he says seriously. I mean no offense but this is merely an opinion formed from various and sundry DRAGON articles in the early 80’s. Situations change. People and opinions change. Life goes on.

>Another dimension you forgot is the religious aspect – we had, and still
>have, quite a bit of religious fervor here in Scotland. From the Covenants
>earlier on, to present day sectarianism between the Catholics and
>Protestants, it is a hot-bed of religious fire here, albeit not so tense as
>Northern Ireland I might add.

---I hadn’t forgotten this aspect, I just lacked an appropriate way of applying it. Do the Flani seem this religiously fervent? Such zeal hardly seems to fit (if one were to apply this analogy).

>Again, I should caution against taking any analogy too far. The
>peoples of Greyhawk are unique and any comparison to a culture or people
>on a world berift of magic & majesty is bound to fall short.

---I agree, I would also like to reiterate (in light of Mr. Walsh’s comments) that this comment does apply to my own Oeridian-Scottish/Irish/etc. analog. I am just as guilty as anyone else—and I know this and am fully cognizant of my actions.

>IMC incidentally, the closest to a Scots-based people are a ‘lost tribe’ of
>Flan who fled Haradaragh before its downfall, being forced from their next
>homes in the Good Hills then the Stark Mounds and southern Geoff by the
>advancing nation of Keoland, finally disappearing into the Crystalmists.

---Are the Haradaragh detailed anywhere? I don’t own everything Greyhawk (yet). IMC the clans of Geoff & Sterich are fairly close to being Scots-based: sporting individual clan tartans (though with some colors the Scots traditionally don’t use—which are attributed to Suel, Baklunae, Flani, and non-human influences), beating on each other when there is no one threatening their lands, etc. Though they have had to deal with successive incursions of other peoples.

Again I would with to reitterate, that I meant no malice by my post. I merely saw things differently than Mr. Walsh (I hope I have at least gotten the name right).

Still flanning the flames on my behind,
Chris Jarvis, living in Seattle and occasionally wearing a dress (I mean tunic…no really)

WoG Gods Part I - the Oeridians

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:32:03 -0500
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: allen trussell
Subject: [GREYTALK] WoG Gods Part I – the Oeridians
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Let me preface this “series”. Although WoG is of course a fantasy world, and created by the great EGG, I, for one, like my fantasy world mixed with a certain amount of reality. A realistic base helps make the fantastic seem real, the incredible a bit more believable. In short, I like to have something with which I (and my players) can identify. With this in mind, I set forth to add more detail to the cultures and nations in WoG. There is, as you all know, a fairly limited amount of detail provided in the boxed set(s) and modules. Oh, sure, they're filled with info on game stats, a bit of “flavour” here and there, and some names, but how much do they add to the overall culture of Greyhawk and its peoples? Not bloody much. Hence, I sought out the list of the gods.

The best way to determine details of an unknown culture is to look at its beliefs. Looking at the gods of WoG, I find that it is an almost overfull pantheon, taking into account the various racial “boundaries” within this list. I see glaring holes in the pantheons of the four basic peoples, bakluni, flannae, oeridian, and seul. Once again, using fact (in this case, real-world Earth), I find certain gods common to almost every known ancient pantheon; a god of the air & sky, a goddess of love, a trickster deity, and so on. These are lacking in the seperated WoG pantheons, although overall can still be found. Although it can be assumed that in the overall world view these gods are all that suffice, it doesn't help establish a cultural base within the seperate races (also, I notice some possible oversights in standard racial types; if the western Flanaess, or Oerik, can be considered analogous to Eurasia... then where are the Slavic peoples? The Teutons? The CELTS?!? Are they just tribes of suel? ).

In any case, this made me decide to create more “complete” pantheons for the four races of man, even if some the deities are no longer worshipped, or even remembered save in ancient texts.

First, I shall begin with the Oeridian pantheon, as this was perhaps the easiest to decipher. With the colour scheme given for these folk, and existing list of gods, it seems to me that EGG was going for a meditteranean people here, greco-roman most likely. And their pantheon is fairly complete to begin with. Thus, I interpret the Oeridian pantheon as being quite similar to the greco-roman pantheon(s); the gods are every bit as passionate, vain, petty, and “human” as their mortal believers. Likely, these deities were born of even greater beings, later rising and overthrowing the rules of their forebears. Early in Oerid civilisation, individual city-states would have held a certain deity as patron, and many cities across the Flanaess are still partial to one deity more than others. Many demi-gods should exist among such a pantheon as well, whether by virtue of skill and excellence a mortal is blessed with such status, or by virtue of divine birth (just think about Zeus… and Perseus, Heracles, Achilles, etc.). Also, there should be a number of divine beings not necessarily worshipped, per se, similar to the furies, the muses, and the fates.

Havin been this long-winded, I’ll now provide a quick list of the new deities, their spheres of control, alignments, gender, and “level” (greater, intermediate, lesser, demi-god). If any one would like specifics, I’ll post the ones with the most requests (priesthood, avatar, that sort of thing). Remember, also, that these deities have been created with the idea that many have counterparts in the existing pantheon, and may well have disappeared from public belief.

Anaeus – God of Rulership, Might, Wisdom, Knowledge, and All Things Under Heaven and Oerth; the Overgod – Lawful Good – Male – Greater God

Berius – God of Volcanoes, Earthquakes, and Tempests – Chaotic Neutral (Evil tendencies) – Male – Lesser God

Dellemnus – God of Monsters, Destruction, Cruelty, and Madness – Chaotic Evil – Male – Intermediate God

Finneghan – God of Randomness, Tricks, Happenstance, and Humour – Chaotic Neutral – Male – Lesser God

Herame – Goddess of Land, Fertility, Health, Agriculture, and the Home – Neutral Good – Female – Greater Goddess

Kelizan – God of Skill, Perseverance, Victory, and Fruitful Endeavors – True Neutral (Lawful tendencies) – Male – Lesser God

Kodos – God of the Dead, the Underworld, and Darkness – True Neutral (Lawful tendencies) – Male – Greater God

Luscera – Goddess of Love, Beauty, Sharing, and Kindness – Lawful Good (N/G tendencies) – Female – Intermediate Goddess

Mellios – God of Steel, Smithing, Crafs, and Knowledge of Artifice – Neutral Good – Male – Intermediate God

Mereter – Goddess of Magic, Illusion, the Astral Plane, and Forbidden Knowledge – Lawful Evil – Female – Intermediate Goddess

Myrha – Goddess of Rivers, Streams, Running Waters, and Rain – True Neutral (Good tendencies) – Female – Lesser Goddess

Paesus – God of Wine, Wild Passion, and Change – Chaotic Neutral – Male and Female – Lesser God(dess)

Ronseur – God of Hunting, Beasts, and Nature Untamed – Neutral Good (Chaotic tendencies) – Male – Lesser God

Toreun – God of Secrets, Intrigue, Messengers, Liars, and Thieves – True Neutral (Chaotic tendencies) – Male – Lesser God

I hope I didn’t go overboard, or get too long winded, or, worst of all, bore anyone. Future posts should be shorter. Next time: Part II – the Flannae.