Wednesday, February 21, 2018

Re: Which Religions believe in an Afterlife?

Subject:         Re: [GREYTALK] Which Religions believe in an Afterlife?
     Date:         Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:53:41 EST
    From:         ""
Reply-To:         The GREYtalk Discussion List

In a message dated 3/8/99 9:17:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> it would be better to view the afterlife in the context of pantheons

I don't know how important pantheons are in the Flanaess.  In regions
dominated by one ethnicity, like (the Duchy of) Urnst, the Tilvanot, and Tenh,
I would say very, but  in other areas a variety of pantheons might be mixed in
unusual ways.  Basically, each region would have a different mix of beliefs,
and you're right to assume that only one or two of the local deities would
preside over death.

> Nerull - The Reaper not only squelches the fire of life, he also judges the
>  dead & sends them to their punishment/ reward

Nerull rewards people?  I still say that Allitur is a better choice for judge
of the Flan.

> Istus - I see the Bakluni as believing more along the lines of reincarnation
is a lot like the big goddess-figures of the Near East: Astarte, Ianna,
etc.  In really ancient days, the dead of those people were sent to generic
Sheol-style underworlds, but by Roman times the place was filled with
astrology cults from Persia (the Magi), and reward-punishment afterlives
influenced by Mithraism.  I'm not quite sure what was going through the heads
of the devotees of Cybele, but it probably had something to do with promised
The doctrine of transmigration of the soul came to Greece and Rome from India
via Egypt (if you trust Herodotus).  It could possibly fit into Baklunish
society, as an undercurrent if nothing else.

> Rao - I see him as shepherding the souls of good in his "Peace & Serenity"
>  aspect. If he is Flan (agin, I don't recall), he rules the GH "Elysian
>  Fields"

Incabulos is "common" (to most areas).  Rao is Flan, but I think the Elysian
fields fit better with Pelor, unless Pelor pulls his faithful into the sun.

> If Rao IS Flan, then
>  Pelor really has no need to be involved in the business of Death.

I'd rather that Rao and Pelor aren't worshipped in the same regions; their
portfolios overlap too much.  It's much neater if Rao is common to the Flan
tribes of the West, and the Pelor/Nerull dichotomy limited to the east and
north.  The exception would of course be high-traffic central areas like
Greyhawk and Dyvers where many ethnicities mingle, and recent introductions
like the Raostafari (grin) paladins in the southern Great Kingdom.

Do you think chaotic gods would defer to Wee Jas?  I understood they didn't
get along.

> Akwamon - Len Lakofka's sea - god. See Procan. (Anyone notice how much this
> guy's name sounds like that of a DC comic's character?)

Sitting on a park bench.  Eyeing little girls with bad intent.  Snot dripping
from his nose.  Greasy fingers smearing shabby clothes.  Hey Akwamon!

Akwamon, my friend, don't go away I need thee.  You poor old sod, you see it's
only me...

and so on.

The others are fine.

Tuesday, February 20, 2018

Re: Which Religions believe in an Afterlife?

Subject:         Re: [GREYTALK] Which Religions believe in an Afterlife?
     Date:         Sun, 7 Mar 1999 02:08:25 EST
    From:         "" "
Reply-To:         The GREYtalk Discussion List

They all believe in an afterlife.
Here's why:

1. Market pressures.  If Trithereon isn't offering some kind of reward,
everyone but the  most determinately vengeful will go over to Cuthbert.

2. That's the way it is.  There is an afterlife.  From undead spirits to speak
with dead spells, many people know that there's a form of life after death.
Denying this fact would be like denying the sky or digestion: it can be done,
but who's going to buy it? (See the Shaman accessory for an example of an
alternate theory).

Specific afterworlds:

Beory -- The Oerthmother's Womb.  Souls return to the oerth to be reborn.
Watcher better elaborated on this.  However, I decided that the Flan,
following the Akan people of Ghana in our world, see the soul as containing
several parts:
Mother-blood.  This is the life-blood of all existence, inherited through the
maternal line.  This is the force that sustains all that is, the very blood of
Beory.  When a mortal dies, it flows on.
Soul: A spark of Beory's lifeforce.  This is reincarnated.  Near the
Crystalmists, Joramy takes the place of Beory as mother of the soul.
Personality-soul: This goes to the realm of the appropriate god.  It is
inherited from the father and is corruptable and thus can be judged.  Normally
Allitur, god of propriety, is judge of the dead.  The Flan constantly worry
about this part of the soul escaping and terrorizing the living.  Sometimes it

Boccob -- a number of options:

A. From magic we come, to magic we return.
B. Petitioners in the eternal Library of Lore, tending to the Books that
represent the universe and all its secrets.  This seems to be the official,
"On Hallowed Ground," explanation.
C. Return to the world of pure Form.  See the writings of Plato. Also: souls
could take the form of runes and sigils written in the fabric of the cosmos.
D. Paradox.  Some sort of zen koan thing.  "A soul is the shout that cannot be
E. A complex, incomprehensible metaphor, like "Souls are the fires in the
river of Mind.  They travel down the Flow of Reality in successive, eternally
collapsing fiery Waves."
F. There is no F.  It would be a strictly rationalistic view of Nature like in
that wizard country in Runequest's Glorantha, but Boccob's a true neutral god,
as comfortable with Chaos as with Order and Mystery as with Revelation.
Rather than being a unicorn-hating, god-demonizing power, Boccob encompasses
all things in moderation.

Incabulos: How in Hades could Incabulites not believe in an afterlife!?  He's
the god of hags and hordlings: his souls obviously become larvae.  Granted,
this isn't a very appealing destination, so they are probably promised some
exhalted position in the court of Nightmare.  Since wishes are nightmares for
beggers to ride, the important ones probably do ultimately become impressive-
looking hordlings, the chattel becoming food for Incabulos' handmaidens and
Servants of Incabulos would also become disease-bearing undead, like mummies.

Istus: I don't know.  Istus' loom isn't an outer plane; it's more of a cosmic
control center.  Probably her people would end up on the plane appropriate to
their alignment (often the Friendly Opposition), just as the Celestial
Bureaucracy handles their petitioners.

Kord: Yes, a Valhalla.

Lendor: The souls of the Suel traditionally end up on the Outer Planes, there
to climb as high as their wills allow them.  Potentially, they can become
gods.  Wee Jas in her aspect of Protector of the Dead is actually responsible
for the afterlife, and all rituals concern her.  Tombs contain detailed
instructions and spells for helping a soul survive and flourish on the other
Lendor, as god of time, may control lifespans.

Nerull: The underworld, or Crypt of Souls.  Nerull uses the souls of his
victims as fuel for his own wicked plans.  Favored worshippers generally
become undead, so that they can continue to Reap for their master.

Pelor: A sunny heaven, filled with bountiful fields.  Sun worshippers are
agriculturists, don't forget.

Procan: They become fish in the sea of the afterworld.  Ideally, they become
merfolk, who may be mistaken for spirits of the departed.
Insofar as I (following Samwise) interpret him as a god of chaos, Procanite
souls might not have much individual consciousness.

Rao: Rao can be thought of as the Mind or intellectual part of the being of
Beory (or Joramy).  He represents, in regions where he is worshipped, the
intellectual, individual portion of the soul that travels to the outer planes,
the child of Wisdom.  Practically, Rao's worshippers would become Lantern
Archons in his realm. Symbolically, they become one with Sweet Reason.

Tharizdun: Okay, here's a cult that would expect oblivion.  It might be a
selling point.

Ulaa: She isn't a power of the Prime Material, so instead of becoming one with
the heart of the hill or mountain on which they live, Ulaa's faithful ("Ulaa's
Gold") would join the heart of the Celestial Mountain (The Iron Hills/Dwarvish
Mountain/Erackinor) which represents them all.  Dwarves and gnomes might have
theologies very different from humans, believing themselves to be sparks on
the anvil of life, or molten metal waiting to be reforged.

Gnomic theology:
The Prime Plane-- created by the goddess Ulaa and her lesser sisters Beory and
The Shadow Plane-- the source of gnomish magic
The Shadow Heaven-- a probationary heaven where all the delights that will
await gnomish souls in the hereafter are witnessed in illusionary form.
The Jeweled Heaven-- the heaven of Garl; made of a cosmic faceted gemstone,
constantly reflecting what the gnomes who have earned this reward desire most,
in real form.
The Shadow Abyss: opposite the Shadow Heaven.  Within this place of dark
caverns images of dark horrors creep until the soul has earned its way free.
Gnome Hell: the real thing.  Dark horrors creep and overwhelm the hapless
gnomic souls, and Urdlen himself is said to crawl about, rendering all he
comes across.
Koboldhomme: the destination of all kobold spirits.  Garl was trapped here for
a while before he made his way out through wit and skill.  There is also a
humanhomme, dwarfhomme, elfhomme, goblinhomme, etc., but none of these figure
largely in gnomic mythology.

Wee Jas: The default guardian of the dead for all the Suel gods (except
Fortubo, and the chaotic gods), those without the intellect, the magic, or the
will might expect to be imprisoned by her.  She hoards all the dead's
knowledge.  She also guards against the terrors Beyond her realm, the demons
and elder things.  Those who follow her hard-won path into the underworld with
respect and skill can expect to prosper.  Most feel that they're better off
with Wee Jas' help then attempting to navigate the trackless reaches of Beyond
without a guide.

Zilchus: He would have a minor role as protector of gravewealth.  Devout
Zilchians might expect to continue searching for power, influence, and
prestige in the afterlife as in the world of flesh, possibly through some
sorts of otherworldly business transactions.

Cyndor: Depends entirely on other cultural influence.  Individual Cyndorians
might look to Wee Jas, Allitur, Chitza-Atlan, or Celestian to guide them into
Infinity. Cyndor, like Istus, is beyond such things.

Allitur: Judge of the dead.  Oerthly judges might expect to continue in that
role in the afterworld as subordinates to their god.

Velnius, Altroa, Sotillion, Telchur, Wenta,:

My soul is wind
The first Word, the first breath of existence flows through me.
It will flow on.

>From this principle follows all of primal Oeridian religion. The dead are
cremated or fed to the carrion birds.  The wind carries them into the heavens,
where they become proud sky warriors, wind dukes, and starchiefs, or birds.
In modern times Oeridian religion is very contaminated by other faiths.
Today, only isolated druids and barbarians follow the old ways.  Most expect
to go to the divine palace of their god, in the stars.

Beltar: A Pit of Malice, where the dead writhe as snakes.  Beltarai can expect
no succor from Wee Jas, and don't desire it.  They're told they have the
opportunity to devour the souls of their dead enemies.

Berei: A handmaiden of Beory.  Berei has nothing to do with the afterlife.

Bleredd: See Ulaa, above.  Bleredd probably isn't worshipped much by
demihumans, though he is honored and helps them sympathize with humans because
of his symbolic marriage to the Goddess.

Bralm:   Her followers believe it is she who brings new souls to the Oerth
from where they are generated in the realm of the moons.  Bralm's realm is
very near Wee Jas' in the outer planes, and also somewhat near Baalzebul's.
Bralmai death rites are a variation of Wee Jas' from a more communal
perspective.  Bralmai serve in the Hive for the rest of eternity.  The normal
Suel selfishness doesn't exist here, so Bralm's faithful don't expect great
personal power.

Celestian: As god of the Astral Plane, wanderers, and navigators, Celestian
guides souls across the gulf to their destinations.  Rites to Celestian are
common at funerals.  His faithful are transformed into Astral guides like
their god, and are sometimes prayed to as minor saints overseeing specific
Oerthly destinations.

Delleb: Worshippers of Delleb have an almost Flan conception of the afterlife,
due to the influence of the cult of Allitur.  Souls are of two parts: the
universal life stuff seen as Beory's blood (chu'el) and the individual portion
(sunsum) capable of sin.
As with all those of all Oeridian-influenced faiths, the individual souls are
guided to the Outer Planes by Celestian, the star-guide.

Ehlonna: Heavily influenced by the Elven concept of Arvanaith, the far shore.
Ehlonna's faithful become heavenly animals, or trackers and wardens there.

Erythnul: Primarily influenced by the mythology of CE humanoids.  Erythnul's
people believe they go to a good place where they can fight as much as they
want.  Actually, many places.

Fharlanghn: The souls of Fharlanghn's faithful are given into the capable
hands of his brother Celestian.  Fharlanghn's guardianship begins and ends on

Fortubo: Heavily influenced by dwarf/gnome theology.

Geshtai: See Istus.  Geshtai's guardianship ends on Oerth.  Note that
Geshtai's faithful see Fate in a more fluid, watery sense, allowing both more
freedom on the journey and more inevitability at the destination.

Heironeous: Warriors of Heaven.

Hextor: Warriors of Hell.

Jascar: See Wee Jas.  The afterlife is a hilly and mountainous place.

Joramy: Source of the Flame of Spirit, mercurial power of the mountain's maw.
She replaces Beory in some areas.

Kurell: Kuellians are on their own, expected to take what they can.  They are
aware that they can expect help from any of the other jealous powers.  This is
what being a thief is about.

Lirr: The Land of Stories, where every tale spoken, sang, portrayed or written
exists.  Welcome to heaven.

Llerg: A wild version of Kord's Valhalla.

Lydia: Lydia's faithful make their way, with Wee Jas' help, to a land of song
and truth.

Myhriss: The Realm of Perfect Beauty.

Norebo: Despite their god's "relationship," his faithful can expect no help
from Wee Jas.  Instead, they make their way through the afterlife with their
own luck and wits.  Ultimately, they hope to gain as much power there as
anyone could hope for.

Obad-hai: See Beory.  The individual parts of Obad-haic souls become
otherworldly beasts and spirits.

Olidammara: This might be something like the Eleusian mysteries of rebirth,
secret ceremonies and orgies are undertaken, libations of sacred wine are
ingested, and everyone experiences the Infinite and the journey into the
underworld and back again.

Osprem: See Wee Jas.  The afterworld is a watery place, but intrepid souls
travel it in boats.

Phaulkon: See Wee Jas.  The afterworld is seen as an airy place, and souls are
imagined as winged.

Pholtus: The faith of the Pale is surprisingly influenced by Flannae
mythology.  Instead of Oerthblood, the original force that sustains all of
existence is the Blinding Light, the sacred flame.  The Eternal soul is a
fragment of this sacred all-pervading Light.  The Temptation soul must be
purged by this Light, and the way to the Light is the way of Pholtus.  All who
are not purged by the Light are corrupted manifestations of Chaos.  It was
Pholtus, the One Faithful Power, who tamed the Wild Powers, defeated Chaos,
and brought Order.  If one wishes to benefit from his gifts, one must follow
the perfectly straight path he created to the Light.  The windy nature of the
Temptation soul is the only vestige of Oeridian myth.
Pholtusian churches unaffiliated with the Pale preach the conventional dogma
involving Celestian and the houses in the stars, although they retain the
concept of the Light and the One Way.
Pholtusian saints include the Tamed Powers and especially holy worshippers
(devas, solars, etc.)

Phyton: Phyton's worshippers look to Wee Jas, though Wee Jas doesn't look to
them.  The afterlife is a beautiful place.

Pyremius: See Wee Jas.  The afterlife is a fiery, poisonous place which one
must prosper through stealth and villainy.

Raxivort: Raxivort's worshippers are terrified of Graz'zt, and most funeral
rites involve trying to hide the soul from this vengeful deity, in the holes
and crannies of the afterworld.  Also: they hope to gather hoards in their
spectral nests.

Syrul:  See Wee Jas.  The afterlife is an uncertain place, where nothing is

Vatun: A Valhalla, currently unoccupied.

Xan Yae: See Istus.  Fate is a stealthy thing that tends to sneak up on you
out of the shadows.  Fate rewards discipline.

Xerbo: See Osprem, but slightly wilder.

Zodal: See Beory.  Zodal's realm in the Outer Planes is called the Cradle of
Hope, but only great heroes go there.  Most expect to be fully reincarnated.

Al'Akbar: See Istus.  Fate rewards faithfullness.

Iuz: Shades in Dorokaa and the Abyss, or undead minions.  People worship Iuz
because they admire him, because he offers an alternative to poverty, or in
gratitude for making their pathetic little bandit kingdom an empire.  Yes,
he's evil.

Mayaheine: See Pelor.

Rudd: See Celestian, Procan, and Istus.  Rudd is a quicksilver child of Chaos;
considered to be Zilchus' bride by which Chaos' treaty with humanity is
assured.  Rudd acts as a bridge between the human soul and Chaos Outside, the
vast unpredictabilitly of existence she helps make manageable to the tender
human ego.  For that, she is loved.

They say she serves Istus, holding up her own uncertain side of Destiny on
behalf of the greater goddess.  Others say she serves nothing but the pact.
Still others believe that Istus is the pact. Rudd's realm in the godplanes is
a permenant spiralling gate to the Outlands; it is often used as a
navigational tool for those seeking to travel through the ever-changing
substance of Liimbo.

Vecna: See Nerull, but Vecna's cultists hope to escape Nerull's grasp with the
dark secret's Vecna promises.

Wastri: Souls are flies, which are caught by Wastri's long tongue.

Ye'Cind: As an elven faith, Ye'Cind's faithful expect to travel physically to
the High Forest of Arvanaith.

Zagyg: See Boccob, but add something silly like the Great Sneeze and the Match
in the Cosmic Little Toe.

Zuoken: See Istus.  Fate rewards discipline.

Murlynd: Heaven is a wild place, with horseback riding buckaroos and wild
injuns.  The faithful help Murlynd work on his devices.

Monday, February 19, 2018

Re: Which Religions believe in an Afterlife?

Subject:           Re: [GREYTALK] Which Religions believe in an Afterlife?
     Date:           Sat, 6 Mar 1999 14:20:25 -0500
     From:           The Watcher
Reply-To:           The GREYtalk Discussion List

Haile and Fair Greetings All,

Jay Hafner writes:
>Here're a few of my ideas:
>Beory & nature gods-  Generally no.  You become food for the worms and
>join the cycle of life.
        Well... this isn't generally true of druidic/nature cults,
though.  Mainly, they typically share a belief in some form of evolution
of the spirit/soul.  In some cases, there is an "interim" afterlife in
which the collected wisdom of the life left is incorporated into the
total knowledge collected.  Where the game is concerned, this may
interpret as a temporary stay in the planar realm of the Power.
        If the religious belief is one of complete evolution, they might
believe in origins as non-sentient but still living
plant-to-animal-to-"humanoid" form; ever learning and evolving until
whatever lessons are valued by the Power have been learned.  This may
take several attempts, if the religion believes in reincarnation.  Once
mortal lessons have been acquired, the next stage might be a planar life
as a "petitioner".
        If it is the will of the Power, the entity might travel the
planes learning the lessons of belief incarnate.  Since many
druidic/nature Powers tend to be N in outlook, experience with various
"out-of-balance" philosophies teaches the traveling petitioner about the
over-all outlook of the multiverse.  Once a full scope has been achieved
(returning to the home realm between forays for mental "processing" as
when mortal), the spirit/soul finally understands the full nature of its
beliefs, it returns finally to its home, where it will eventually become
one with (absorbed by) its Power.

>Nerull- Nothing but blackness here.
        Optionally, those who actually worship Nerull may either seek to
placate him in order to fend off death eternally, else seek to find a
place as a servant in the realm of the Power.  In this case, it's not an
afterlife of "reward", until one considers for the type who worships
Nerull, aiding him in the death and destruction of all life probably *is*
a reward.

>Istis (ToEE spelling) - You will only haunt if you were unable to
>fulfill your destiny.
        Also, Fate is all things.  It can be destruction upon passing, as
well as endless return to fulfill that destiny.  In serving the Power in
some kind of afterlife, it may also mean assisting others in achieving
their destinies.  Which is not to say showing up and spilling the beans
so much as insuring that key events in unfolding Fate take place "as they
should".  Success and failure are still options.
        Becoming a haunt or ghost is an intriguing potential for such
worshipers, since they might actively believe in this Fate as a
consequence of their failures.  For as bad a product as _Fate of Istus_
was, what it does show us is that Fate constantly tests us, even warns us
(if the clues are detected) of impending events.  This is no doubt why
Istus' priesthood are accomplished diviners.  Regardless of the precise
"why", Istus seems interested in making us conscious of our choices --
one of the core ingredients in learning.  (See nature cults, above.)

>Pelor and Pholtus - No.  Just the thrill of being alive I guess.
        Whysoever would you think *that*?  Without falling into the trap
of thinking the Pale the only example of Pholtus, these two have the
greatest chances of having a "reward for all your good" type of afterlife
so popular in Christendom.

>St. Cuthbert -  I figure this guy has to have something to do with the
>afterlife, otherwise why would he tell the peasants to work so hard in
>the fields?  There has to be something better than the toils of life.
        Fair enough.  But keep in mind Cuthbert isn't just emphasis on
toil.  It's overlooking, or rather, working beyond, the short-comings of
life: pretensions, evil, etc..  Cuthbert emphasizes common sense
applications over convoluted philosophies which only support what one
really wishes to do.  He's perhaps the singular GH Power who views
promote a "we are all equal under the sky" mentality (much to the
discomfiture of nobility, to be sure).

>Pelor -  No.  Just like Beory, except become fish food...
        No doubt you meant Procan, here.  I'd be curious to learn if the
Procaners, see human-form existence as a building block to "greater "
forms of life, be it: mermen and there ilk or aarakocra and their kin.
The mention of flying creatures comes less from any Powers list (83 book,
FtA, or GH:PG) I've seen and more from Eric L. Boyd's curious
interpretation of the Power in POLYHEDRON #130 (inland temples, emphasis
on weather there, etc.).

>Iuz -  This guy lives on the same plane as his worshippers..they're
>not going anywhere.
        ::Eek::  Too true.  His "subject" have the dubious honor of
having their soul energy sucked out by Iuz upon passing (if not before!)
or serving his whims on the planes (no planar realm) as proxy or
petitioner "tool".  Belief in any kind of afterlife does seem proximate
to keeping in Iuz's extremely volatile good graces.  Much luck to them.

>Hextor, Heironeous -  I'm imagining a Valhalla here.
        Maybe if you blended them.  For Hextor, the afterlife would be
one of an endless military campaign.  Blood War comes to mind, but I
rather expect the battles to be ones of specific conflict with enemy
Powers or attempts to further power acquisition.  Heironeous almost
strikes my as the UN of the multiverse.  His portfolio suggests one of
being prepared to fight for the right cause, yet ever hoping it doesn't
come to that.  Honor and leadership through example would be stressed
with the realm of the Power being a "perfect" sanctuary from the
"torments" of existence.

>Delleb, Rao - I guess we'd all become part of the collective "Thought."
        Ultimately, probably.  Just how could equate to parts of a
collective consciousness.  Sure, once "perfection" is achieved and
absorption into Rao occurs, there's no more self, but until then, perhaps
it's a place of perpetual seeking of "Truth", sagely research, and open
sharing of knowledge.  This also leaves open the potential for planar
adventures (by petitioners or as contracts) to seek out answers to
specific questions.

>Trithereon- Nope, you'd better get your things in order while you are
>here.  Some would be created into spirits/haunts if they were unable to
>avenge themselves.
        Failure to achieve the correct life as a mortal might result in
being cast out of Trithereon's realm (to the plane most in tune with the
actual alignment), though I can definitely see this taught on Oerth as
"oblivion".  "Joining with Trithereon" may be what's taught on the
Flanaess as ultimate reward (giving over to a supposition there is no
afterlife), but this may translate after death to serving the Power's
goals in his planar realm.  Since the memory core is abandoned before
formation as a petitioner, noone in Trithereon's realm actually gets
there and says, "What do you know about this...".  I can just see it now
-- his planar following going about taking vengeance for wrongs to their
Lord and others from chosen foes.  A few adventures there, I think

>Phaulkon - "We're all just dust in the wind..."
        See notes concerning Procan, above, whom I can see interested in
flying forms more than that Power.  There's also the sentient cloud
creature and air elementals as potential advancement forms.

>So, all tallied:  That makes two.  War gods, and gods that say "life
>is hard here, It'll be better when you die."
        Don't forget Zilchus' philosophy as "You *can* take it with you."
 Here not literally, as they well know death equates to someone
inheriting, but more like your achieved place in life equates to your
position in the afterlife.

        So, there's a different take on these specific Powers.  I'd be
given to think there'd have to be *some* kind of reward for life
devotion, else the kind of devotion required (esp. where the radical
alignments are concerned) wouldn't be nearly as popular as one who did
offer something.

        Soft Winter and Sweet Flowers,


Sunday, February 18, 2018

Re: Weaker Gods?

Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:40:02 EST
From: ""  
Subject: Re: Weaker Gods?

In a message dated 1/23/00 12:11:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, NickPerch@AOL.COM writes:

> See, I don't think these are uninteresting to PC's at all. Sure, the more martial, adventuring oriented gods will see more play from PC's, but if previous RPGA campaign experience is any indication, we'll see priests of just about every imaginable stripe. Lirr and Zodal will almost certainly
> have PC followers and priests, in the LWoG campaign, for good or ill.

That's encouraging. That's certainly something for the circles and triads to keep in mind.

deaconblue3@JUNO.COM writes:
> making some religion into something it's not,

That's a needlessly limited perspective, and one I'm not prepared to accept. It's impossible to say what a god is or is not based on one line of information, which is all we presently have for some of them. No, I suppose they don't all *need* adventurers associated with the church, but I still think it's a good idea to have them just in case, especially on a world where adventurers can bring real power to
an organization. If I have an idea for an artistically-motivated priest, I don't want to be told that my character couldn't possibly get any powers because it's only the gods of bashing that reward their faithful.
Those who make unusual choices shouldn't be penalized without just reason. If someone comes up with a priesthood that's interesting and adds to the campaign's possibilities (instead of a blah one that only
limits a god or faith's use), then so much the better.

rtaylor@CMC.NET writes:

> You're BSing when you claim a priest of Lirr should be like one of Odin or Apollo.

Heh. You just like to argue.

I didn't claim that Lirr was like Apollo or Odin. I used them as examples because it shows that poetry was something that people *respected*. It wasn't limited to something only effette intellectuals worshipped. Even if you concentrate only on the poetry aspects of Odin or Apollo, pretending they're not concerned with war or healing or athletics or death or magic, they're still interesting gods, worth including as important parts of an FRPG, because they have full, detailed personalities behind them. The Muses are mostly symbols, without a lot of stories about them (and they're linked with Apollo anyway), so they're not as useful. I can imagine giving Lirr some Muse servants or handmaidens (too minor to have a cult of their own), but demoting the entire goddess to the status of Muse would be a waste.

I don't know *anything* about Bragi, but I'll wager out of ignorance that there's more to him then the sagas record -- that's usually the way of religions (in the same way that actual worshippers of Aphrodite considered her far more than merely the goddess of love, and worshippers of Hecate weren't all witches).

Scratch that. Apparently Bragi was a real-life poet from the ninth century who was apotheosized by later poets. He's got some cool attributes like being patron of oaths (an imaginary priesthood based on this god -- I don't think there were any in real life -- might be in charge of laying geases and such on those who make pacts. There could even be a group of assassins, in a fantasy campaign, devoted to Bragi and slaying oathbreakers). I also like the runes carved into his tongue. But overall, he's doesn't seem like a good
example of a god, because he's so artificial. I'd rather Lirr was something more. If people are, like Nick Perch said, going to want to play Lirrical priests, then perhaps it would be best not to model the goddess after a divinity that had none.

Now think: how can priests of Lirr be different from priests of Lydia or Olidammara in a way that would be good for the campaign (rather than bad for the campaign, which is what treating her as a mere muse would be)?

She's has a very similar sphere of influence to Deneir, the Realmsian god of glyphs and symbols, but that's been done, so let's move on.

Here's part of what I have:

(Lady of Glyphs and Images, Queen of Stories, the White Goddess)
Lesser Goddess of Olympus, CG

Portfolio: Poetry, Prose, Literacy, Art
Aliases: Lyr, Lirra
Domain Name: Arborea/Olympus/the Land of Stories
Superior: Rao
Allies: Phyton, Vatun, Norebo, Murlynd, Joramy, Bleredd, Myhriss
Foes: Lendor
Symbol: Quillpen (or brush) and inkwell
Worshipper's Align.: NG, CG

She is opposed by Lendor, who dislikes the distortions of history Lirr's flock often create for the sake of a good story.

Her allies are lovers of epics, romances, and tall tales.

Lyr is portrayed as an intensely stylized, two-dimensional illumination in the margins of her holy texts (which are freely rewritten and reinterpreted from generation to generation, although the older editions are carefully preserved). Lirr's realm in the Outer Planes is populated by characters from every story ever told or yet to be told.

Avatar of Lirr (Mage 18, Priest 13)

AC: 7; MV 12 ; HP 42 ; THAC0 12 ; #AT 1; D 3d4
MR 80% ; SZ M (5'2")
Str 11; Dex 15; Con 10 ; Int 19 ; Wis 19; Cha 19
Spells: M: 8/8/8/5/5/4/4/4/4
P: 0/0/0/0/4/3/2
Saves PPDM 8; RSW 6; PP 7 ; BW 4; Sp 2
Special Att/ Def: Lirr is armed with a brush and pen. Anything she draws can come to life (essentially, she can summon anything she imagines). Creations of Lirr last 4d10 rounds, although some (DM's
call) become permanent.
Other Manifestations: Omens from the Lady of Glyphs include writing appearing from nowhere overnight, or even written by a ghostly hand.
The Queen of Stories is served by benevolent dream spirits and the great heroes of myth and fable.
Dogma: Art creates reality, not the other way around. By creating art you transform the past, yourself, and all who see it.
Day-to-Day Activities: Authors of legendary works gain lasting rank within the Lirrical faith. Priests act as compilers, authors, and researchers. Often, Lirricists are sent to recover or copy lost and rare works. Lirr's temples, in lieu of tithe, charge for the use of their library, but at competitive rates that make them well worth visiting.
The church of Lirr also promotes the arts in their communities.

That's what I'm talking about. Lirr is a muse only insofar as she inspires great deeds. Her clerics travel to far lands to gain fodder for their writings. She *screams* adventure. And all that without straining to make her hip or adding "berserkergang" to her list of attributes.
It can be done, if you're willing to try.

Russ, your last post makes no sense -- for instance, I never claimed that all priesthoods were evangelical (as far as I can tell), and the issue of whether it's the gods or priesthoods that should be interesting is meaningless (the two should feed each other) -- so I won't go into it in any detail.

Conviction is Nostalgia poison
is death
Rip Van Wormer

Saturday, February 17, 2018

Re: 3ed bastardation of gods....

Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:33:23 -0800
From: Eric Van  
Subject: Re: 3ed bastardation of gods....

Ummm...where's Incabulos?

I know Nerull and Hextor usually get the limelight, but that's why I liked Incabulos so much.

Ah well.

Eric VdW

--- sander wrote: 
> Well, just you all knew - it is from the same site the holds the "vote".
> There is a tid-bit called 3ed gods. The table looks like this:
> God's name Portfolio Align. Domains
> Heironeous Valor LG Good, Law, War
> Moradin Dwarves LG Earth, Good, Law, Protection
> Yondalla Halflings LG Good, Law, Protection
> Ehlonna Woodlands NG Animal, Good, Plant, Sun
> Carl* Gnomes NG Good, Protection, Trickery
> Pelor Sun NG Good, Healing, Strength, Sun
> Corellon* Elves CG Chaos, Good, Protection, War
> Kord Strength CG Chaos, Good, Strength, Luck
> Wee Jas Death & Magic LN Death, Law, Magic
> St Cuthbert Retribution LN Law, Strength, Protection, Destruction
> Boccob Magic N Knowledge, Magic, Trickery
> Fharlanghn Roads N Luck, Protection, Travel
> Obad-Hai Nature N Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Water
> Olidammara Thieves CN Chaos, Luck, Trickery
> Hextor Tyranny LE Destruction, Evil, Law, War
> Nerull Death NE Death, Evil, Trickery
> Vecna Secrets NE Evil, Knowledge, Magic
> Erythnul Slaughter CE Chaos, Evil, Trickery, War
> Gruumsh Orcs CE Chaos, Evil, War
> * Carl's and Correllon's names shortened by me. They still have their full
> names.
> My only comment - if the table is true - is "You screwed it up, bastards!".
> There are way too many gods with trickery in the domain. Also:
> * Olidammara's portfolio is thieves? Everybody hit that designer who
> read way too much conan instead of paying attention to Greyhawk. Also,
> suddenly music and wines and spirits are not something in his domain? Bad.
> * Boccob has now a domain of trickery? Oh no, all boccobs priest -
> supposed to be grave and considerate people - seem to have left and become
> Zagig's followers...
> * Who is the real god of magic? It seems as if all three - Boccob, Wee Jas
> and Vecna are contesting for the position...
> * Ehlonna has lost half-elves (of all things!) and gained sun...
> * Obad-Hai now has way in-appropriate elemental spheres...
> * Erythnul is apparently majorly screwed up if his spheres are really as
> seen above
> * There is a domain of GOOD!!!! And similarily the others, like Evil,
> chaos and law, but apparently *NOT* Neutrality!
> * Why the hell had they to bring in Vecna?
> Sander
> There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future -
> these are all just illusions.