From: sander
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Sander's comments on the Duchy of Ulek
> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:53:56 PST
> From: Immaculate Image
> Subject: Sander's comments on the Duchy of Ulek
> S: And the rest of the writeup continues to totally ignore both foodstuffs and cloth, even though these are listed as resources and should thus be important.
>
> II: Good point. I should address the role of those resources in the Culture section. Anybody want in on that?
ME! ME! ME!
I have a lot of info (mostly hardcopy paper form) on Uleks & foodstuffs. I'll start posting it.
> S:Is there an offical view of Grenowen or even a write-up?
>
> II: None that I know of. That was written by Steve, and our Triad will have to develop him. Perhaps I have painted him as an idyllic ruler, as that's my impression of him, but I'm sure we'll come up with some
> character quirks to make him unique.
>
> "The opening of neighboring Celene proved prosperous...."
>
> S: Now that the GHW are over and Celene is not so open, what about the trade? As such a trade would also bring additional wealth into not only the Duchy of Ulek but also Celene, the merchants and anybody
> connected to them are going to be grumbling if it has stopped entirely, and would probably create a fair bit of smuggling. If it continues but is limited by say requiring a special royal permit or somesuch, it would create some smuggling and quite a bit of intrigue.
>
> Which are IMHO excellent story leads.
>
> II: Good point. I think the relations between the Duchy and Celene are still very good, though straining. Trade between the two is limited I think, and although smuggling might exist, anybody doing such things in Yolande's turf is taking their life into their hands. This also depends
> on how easy and navigable the Lortmils are. I know it's not the Crystalmists and humanoids are few relative to the Pomarj, but it's not a trip to the store. Taras' point about Celene Pass also complicates
> this trade issue.
Oh, definately. I never implied it would be easy. The smugglers could easily have their own routes (some smuggling may have been going on for centuries, even when Celene was closed), the smugglers can make use of magic and use subterran passages, etc.
[snip]
> "..dwarven clan leaders are said to be as rich as princes, and are approached by emissaries from Furyondy and even Nyrond for aid.
> Dwarves are not, however, susceptible to such overtures."
>
> S: Hmm... Not listed above in resources.
>
> II: that's because the dwarves have the gold, not the Duchy :)
The unallied dwarves should be discussed separately. Under a big entry of Lortmils or somesuch. Similar forany others that live in there or nearby (gnomes of Kron Hills, inhabitants of the Lorridges, etc.)
There is bound to be quite a lot of 'vagabonds'.
> "Two ancient woodlands..."
>
> S: Somebody should work on those.
>
> II: In what regard? Like developing similar to the level of detail of the Gnarley Forest present in the Campaign Guide in FtA? More importantly, ARE YOU VOLUNTEERING?
I rather meant the fairy creatures than the whole forests.
> S: [snip - roads, got to check it out on a map]
>
> II: Don't bother because they're not there. Maybe some day they'll be canon. Until then, you'll just have to look at the Darlene Map and envision them.
That's what I meant.
[snip]
>"Although the Duchy is a relatively safe land, there are the odd encounters with dangerous life-forms...."
>
> S:Way too many humanoids imho, especially considering the population toll of none. Sounds a lot more like 'small numbers of just about any small humanoid race can be occasionally be found'.
>
> II: Those little races are like roaches. They just look for some nook and cranny. When it says no humanoids I think of the bigger and more organized races considering the context of the reference. Things like orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, trolls, ogres and giants.
Hmm... could well be. But such enclaves would have to be quite a bit more oriented towards hunting, gathering and agriculture than usually. Possibly also tending a bit more towards neutral.
> S: Brown bears are omnivores. Cougars would probably live in the lortmils (but seeing as bears and lions live in mountainous areas as well - consider their former populations in italy, greece and spain) I'm not sure if there would be a niche for cougars. And I would definately leave
> coyottes out.
>
> II: You don't see a role for Coyotes? I was hesitant in thinking whether the wildlife of the Duchy would be more like Africa. I mean Lions must be somewhere in the Sheldomar, given Keoland's (and Sterich's)coat of arms.
Consider the coat of arms of various european countries. Take for example the British lion and unicorn 8-)
Coyottes afaik also don't live in so warm climates (do they live in Florida?) and afaik usually not where there are wolves.
I would still propose medierannean rather than africa for most of the duchy.
> S: This all leaves out the various neutral and good dragons. Considering the whole galore of those that exist...
>
> II: Give me an example of any which might live in the Duchy. I took those (Metallic and Gem)into consideration, and with the exception of Golds perhaps, the terrain just isn't suitable.
Let's see - Amethyst and Mist are almost certain, there may be could dragons up there in the Lortmils (esp. as there already are the Avariel), the mercury dragons are also a possibility.
We know that there is a lot of rain (mostly) and possibly also snowfall in these parts of the Lortmils. We know because there are the Lort and Kewl Rivers. There would also be lots of small streams that eventually merge with these (or don't). In the highlands (and maybe also the Lortmils) there are bound to be many small lakes at the bottom of valleys from which barely all water that gets into it in the rainier seasons manages to escape. Consider that canyons are mentioned in the Lortmils and these come to be due to running water. There could easily also be plenty of waterfalls.
[snip]
> Crocodiles, weather and Florida.
The rivers and tributaries coming from the mountains would be somewhat cooler, also cold air would come from the mountains. And AFAIK there are alligators not crocodiles in Florida. The Duchy is not near the sea, so warm sea-air doesn't come into it.
[snip]
> S: Well, this is a clear case of size-chauvinism.
>
> II: Is that sarcasm? :)
Partially. Invariantly, teh big races find the little ones to be a nuissance, if not worse.
> S: Here is a contradiction. Shouldn't the elven be droped from in front of the nobility? Otherwise Waybury and the gnomes and halflings and humans would have no political influence.
> II: Ahh, but they really don't. Using Steve's writeup, one must be an elf or half elf to be a noble. This does not conflict with saying that Grenowen isn't wise enough to realize that there are valuable people of
> other races. It's a balancing act. Cater to the nobles' self-importance, but keep the "little people" happy. Waybury is a seat of human power because the elves don't have the same grip on it IMO, as they do in
> Tringlee.
>
> S: As here is just nobility, not specificly elven nobility the previous paragraphs should be corrected.
>
> II: In the context of the Duchy, nobility and elven nobility are interchangeable.
I din't notice it being explicitly decleared that being noble meant being elven. So I would really like to contest that part:
a) the gnomes would have their own nobles.
b) the human settlers would have their own nobles. The human tribes that settled there are very unlikely to have done so if they were forced to submit to the power of the elves upon doing so. The leaders would just have gone elsewhere.
There may not be all that many of them compared to the elven ones, but they would exist.
Yet again - if the representatives of the towns and non-elven nobles are not called they have no political influence - or very little of it.
> S: How is the succession of the Duke handled?
>
> II: oohhh..it's a great mystery, since it's never happened!
But it is bound to be agreed on.
> S:The Duchy has quite a lot of gnomes in it's lands. Why not expand and (peacefully) get the dwarves to join in? Indeed, how much are the dwarves concerned who considers the surface area their own?
>
> II: You think you can get those rich and greedy dwarves to submit to an elven Duke? Not likely. Since the surface area is mostly mountainous, it's not likely anybody's gonna build a city on the surface of the
> Lortmils any time soon. It's a matter of respecting each others boundaries, and mutual hate for the bozos to the SE.
It's not clear how much anybody in the Duchy is really submitting to the Duke. The dwarves would rather be invited to take part in the gatherings of the nobles 8-)
> S:Also a good reason to prod the Lortmils dwarves to join the Duchy.
> Especially as the Duchy is providing help to other dwarves and is clearly friendly to various races.
>
> II: The political structure of the Dwarves is a different matter. I'm still trying to get a hold of Sobhrach to use his Lortmils article, which I'd like to do some modifications to. The dwarves of the Lortmils
> most likely feel closest to Prince Corond of Ulek anyway.
But the Prince is relatively far away. Also, the Prince is bound to be a lot more greedy (see above for dwarves and greed) and have a lot more clearer view of what could be found in the coffers of the Dwarves.
[snip]
> S: So the immigrants are mostly settling in and around Waybury? And there are significant amounts of them? Why isn't immigration documented anywhere?
>
> II: Well the elven nobility would be damned if all those vagabonds settle in Tringlee. There are no where near the amounts that have
There is the possibility of having them petition the lords on whose local land they want to settle as farmers, etc. A lot of the refugees would be more suited to country life that city life, wouldn't they? There would be lots of problems if they all settled in Waybury.
> immigrated to Keoland and the Gran March, but there's quite a few IMO.
> And documented where? A canon resource?
In whatever writeup is finally produced?
> S:Python???
>
> II: AHAH! I have flushed you out! Phyton's a suel power of natural beauty...something the Duchy has a lot of (unlike our garbage infested swamp dwellers to the east.. a growing joke between me and the SE1 Triad.)
You got me there. I was thinking of another god.
Sander
There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - these are all just illusions.
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