From: Marc Tizoc Gonzalez
Subject: The Educated Flanaess (was Wizards guild/society/school) (long)
Here's a response to Paul Looby's post from last week. It was a mine full of gems, and I hope that plenty of other folks saved it for future reference.
>>> I'd go for a less organised approach - campuses were a later innovation.
Nonetheless - the cities below would have univerities of the more scattered group of colleges style IMO.
This is a good point. I don't know the history of campuses, but Paul suggests that for Greyhawk:
the campused uni as being a more modern - perhaps central Flanaeess innovation rather than Aerdi (I've always seen Rel Astra for instance as being a very staunchly traditional Oerid city.).
And when I refer to the maps of CoG, then I see that Grey College and the School of Clerkship have campuses while the University of Magical Arts is merely a single (large) building. The notes for Grey College state that in addition to the campus, "certain parts of the school are scattered throughout other small buildings in Clekburg and even beyond."
So maybe the campus begins in the CoG? Since Zagig founded the University of Magical Arts, I like having Grey College and the School of Clerkburg being pre-Zagig. From tAB I see that Zagig's reign begins in 310CY, and the Old City was walled during 200CY, so unless the universities were once independent of the city, then I suggest that they were founded during the rule of Ponjes the Bull, the first Mayor of Greyhawk; around 250CY is probably a good date.
>>> It might indeed be in Mitrik or Chendl with western and religious (think
abbeys and cloisters) influences where the campus is first established (?).
The CoG isn't my favorite place (Go Dyvers!), but I won't begrudge it the birth of the campus, since this "modern" institution does have canon references that go back some time. However, according to Wayne's website, the universities of civilized Bakluna are both older and superior to those of the Flanaess. (I especially like Wayne's references to Baklunish astronomy and mathematics! Did Daern study geometry in Ceshra?)
>>> Rel Astra
Stronghold of traditional oerid scholars - though attempts are being made by younger scholars to challenge the establishment - with limited success so far.
So the Aerdian scholarly language is Old Oeridian? Are lectures given in Common, and just the texts are in Old Oeridian, or is it Old Oeridian or bust? Perhaps the change in language represents some of the challenges to the establishment?
>>> Greyhawk City
Has a group of colleges rather than a campus I thought - could be wrong. <<<
See above. There are actually two small campuses in Clerkburg. It's likely that they were refurbished after my speculative founding date of around 250CY. How many buildings made up historical Trinity College, Harvard, Yale, Oxford, or Cambridge (in no particular order)?
>>> Rel Mord
The main stronghold of the Sagacious (sp?) Society in Nyrond. Noteable colleges inculde the venerable Crecent College - which has extensive records and expertise in the field of history - esp Pre-Migration lore. <<<
I had forgotten the name of the Sagacious Society. From Paul's signature, I assume that Crescent College is his invention. In _The Marklands_ I see that there is a Royal University in Rel Mord. Also Delleb's temple is mentioned as an archive, and of course the Glossography itself is penned by Pluffet Smedger, the Elder in CY998.
Like GH if it has a wide mix of views, philosphies etcetc - particularly western bakluni ideas - given its trade links to the west - which find a more tolerant ear here than further west in Veluna or Furyondy.
After reading Wayne's pages, I'll suggest that the sages who teach western philosophies may be outcasts from the Evris e'Selant or the esoteric cult of Geshtai. How long have such things been taught in Dyvers? Has it been long enough so that Dyvers has unique cults?
Long in decline before the eventual fall of the city. Once a bastion of free thought and one of the greatest institutions in the Flanaess - it became a home for critics of Imperial policy during the reign of the Rax. Tolerated under Ivid I, the later Ivids carcked down hard on the overly vocal - having many executed or dsappaered - forcing many others to flee either west or to Rel Deven, Rel Astra or elsewhere. Im later times it was packed with Naelax loyalists - teaching the glories of the rule of the Ivids etc <<<
Since Delleb is Oeridian, it makes sense that as the dynasty Naelex ascended, the worship of Delleb was similarly de-emphasized as that of Heironeous though not as dramatically. (But not if you believe the heresies of Taras Guarhoth-Cranden!) :)
Also, Cranden-ruled Rel Deven is an excellent candidate for remaining Dellebian archives since those that once existed in Chathold are no more. This recalls the burning of the libraries at historical Alexandria.
esoteric and exotic philosophies and sciences - probably very tempered by religious thought (one reason why the Velunese don't like it). Any comment on this, Wayne?
Wayne may have already commented on this (I'm still two day behind on the digests.), but I've already blabbed about Wayne's placement of advanced mathematics and astronomy in the city of Ceshra or the teachers of the True Faith and the western devotees of Geshtai.
>>> Radigast City
A thriving university - patronsied by the Countess and the rich merhcants of the city.
[snip succinct yet detailed history] It is the source of a new philosophical movement - one which preaches that true wisdom and knowledge comes not from expertise in one narrow area but in appreciating the world in its entirity.
[snip further description of this (Epicurean-oid? Hedonistic?) philosophy]
This ideal no doubt has been strongly influanced by the experiences of the refugees in the devestation of the Wars. <<<
Does this come from the Mighty Fallen?
Gotta pull you up on this one - Nellix is the main seat of learning in the Duchy Urnst - with a loose affiliation of colleges. Leukish is probably too mercantile (fumbling in the greasy till and all that) to bother with too much esoteric scholarship (a bit like London and Oxford/Cambridge).
I was just going with Gary's list of populous cities, and Urnst isn't my domain, so I apologize for slighting Nellix-town. Isn't this where the sage Iquander hails? (I've got to make the time to read Erik Mona's (long) write up of the Duchy. It is in the Best of Greytalk, after all.)
Very religious - the possible original campus - based on cloisters in temples of Rao and generally more organised and hierarchical structure, again borrowed from the church. While devoted to the pursuit of knowlege - the attitudes of the scholars here is coloured by religious teachings and historical attitudes to the Bakluni - which has lead to a rejection of ideas colming through the Fals Gap from the west. <<<
I'm leaning toward giving the original campus to Greyhawk City, but I'm not invested either way. I like Veluna, and Jesse's Church of the Voll rocked! I've included Delleb in that pantheon since I believe that Delleb is useful as the patron of scribes and the written word whereas Rao is the big introspection fellow. Harvard was originally a divinity school.
I agree that Veluna is a good place for prejudice against the Baklunish to be institutionalized in the Voll academy. Neither Rao nor Delleb are gods of truth, and even if another member of the divine family that the Church of Voll is dedicated to (Allitur/Cuthbert) ethics or honesty, then who would deny Velunan scholars the opportunity to say things like "Lopollan sages are merely apologists for or professional whiners about the True Faith." ;)
Probably very influenced by Dwur and noniz thought - therefore very practical and applied pursuits here. Little time for "airy fairy" philoshopical debates <<<
What says Maldin about the sages of Irongate? Does scholarly discourse utilize dwura-vocca or noniz-vocca? There should be eminent engineers here. Maybe an archive of Daern's workbooks exists here? She sure traveled a lot!
Some refugees from Rauxes <<<
Eastfair is infamous for its sophisticated debauchery, and it has a cathedral to Hextor, if you believe Carl Sargent. Maybe a part time sage developed a systematic philosophy of hedonism here? Shouldn't Taras of the sage known as Volstag have something to say about this area?
up in smoke! Many would have fled to Radigast, Nellix, Dyvers and GH. <<<
But of course. Raids that would not recompense too much magic might be to recover an Admundfort sage's works. Also, in keeping with the CoG-centric viewpoint of published works, the majority of Admundfort (and most of the Shield Lands except Critwall) sages chose the Gem of the Flanaess circa 582-585CY. That doesn't preclude later migrations to Dyvers or the Urnst cities, however.
Doubt it very much - its not stable enough I think. <<<
Okay. I wasn't too attached to it, yet I kept putting sagery in only the cities of Good nations. Mages with power but no sages with paper. Still, Baron Kerzinen may have perceptively snatched a Tehna slave-sage from death. Stoink would have been the other city that I might have suggested had a sage in it.
Again - I don't think its exactly the place sages woudl find comfortable. <<<
These two names were together in Paul's post, and this time I wasn't sure if he only meant Monmurg or both of 'em. Gryrax might house sages in correspondence with those of Irongate, who use dwura-vocca in their lectures. I assume that Paul is referring to Monmurg's post-SB takeover ambience.
It is likely that whatever sages weren't _shar_ were inventively tortured by the cousins and uncles. An example might be to consume their own written words until they passed out, only to have more books waiting when they awoke. This continued until the victim ceased to be amusing, when more traditional torture would ensue. The SB strike me as book burners.
Also, it's somewhat tangential, but the film _Blood in the Face_ has a good detail for the SB. The phrase "blood in the face" is supposed to refer to the blushing that is only visible on fair skinned people. Only the Suel are capable of knowing shame and hence blushing. Thus all other psuedo-humans are only degenerates incapable of true nobility. It's chilling racist ideology, but it's nonetheless a keen detail.
Centre of Suel learning - strong in Suel history and culture - though in a manner which incenses the Scarlet Brotherhood. <<<
I don't own FoI, so I wasn't sure what had been printed about education and Jurnre. I like the idea of independent sages rather than an actual university because of Jurnre's small size, but since I'm biased to favor the County of Ulek, I certainly wouldn't mind a college of some sort.
As my "Warrior Women of Ehlonna" posts have attempted to allude to, in Courwood some organized learning is centered in a sacred grove. Lydia is adored therein, and wolves are said to wander through the dawn and twilight mists of this Lyceum (Or perhaps Lycee' is better in keeping with the name Courwood? My French is terrible.)
Marc Tizoc Gonzalez