Re: Crook of Rao and the Blackspear Chamber

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Crook of Rao and the Blackspear Chamber
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 21:33:04 -0500
From: John C Wright
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

> Certainly, although the case is made below concerning the amount
> of human forces available to Drax, and the description of Rel ASTRA goes
> to some length to imply many instances of neutrality amongst its
> inhabitants. As well, nowhere has it been expounded in print as to how
> long Drax had possession of the _crook_.

In response to my comments about the investigation of the _crook_ powers, I did state it would take an exorbiant amount of time to safely learn all of its secrets. Drax had at most a bit over a decade, using a rough timeline of 575 the _crook_ is retrieved from Isle of the Ape and lost....and then recovered by 587 and used in the ceremony to drive out the fiends. Assuming of course, that the ceremony requires more than a simple setup (especially when driving out all of the fiends world-wide), and also assuming that Tenser doesn't lose the _crook_ the day after it is recovered, then Drax has in all likeliehood perhaps 8 years of time with the _crook_. Ample time to learn many of its powers, but far from enough time to learn them all. Remember that simple identifying and legend lores are not likely to reveal much if anything about artifacts.

>
> >Providing that Drax did learn something though, he knew that although he
> could
> >call on fiendish aid from the fiend-sage, he had nowhere near the amount
> of
> >fiends to rely upon as Iuz and Ivid did. In addition, by having his
> military
> >primarily human and led by humans, Drax would be in an advantageous
> position
> >should all other fiends be sent away. Iuz's armies would be undermined,
> Ivid's
> >armies would be leaderless in many places, as well as lacking his
> shock-troops.
> >
> >This was almost entirely a win-win situation for Drax. By bartering the
> item
> >away to a force that he knew would use it for the removal of fiends,
> Drax got
> >just what he wanted out of the item, and a crateful of powerful magic to
> boot.
> Excellent logic in display here, until one reaches the timeline
> as prepared by Master Moore within "GH: tAB". Throughout the text (truly
> beginning on p. 27), Rel Astra is painted in bold colors as a "Free City"
> bent on expanding its defensive capabilities against a far-stronger
> Overking Xavener (UKoA). From the events presented, were this truly
> Drax's intent and mindset, he appeared to have taken leave of his
> faculties whence the time to act was upon him. In short, I'd given grave
> considerations to Drax's position in the original theorization, with this
> but one undermining issuance against his primacy in the matter.

Failed to act when the time was upon him? Do you mean he failed to act when the fiends were cast out? If so, we must look at the repercussions which occured as soon as the fiends were cast out. Almost immeadiately, the city of Rauxes was under siege by all the contenders to the throne. This is most likely a result of Ivid having half of his intellect, or a portion of his ability driven from him by the power of the _crook_. (This is based on many rumors as to a possible demonic/devilish bloodline, both in the online Ivid the Undying supplement, and the very well-written (yet non-canon) History of the Great Kingdom)). Drax, being the manipulator that he is, and preferring defense over offense, held back and waited for the dust to settle (he knew he was not the only one wanting the Overking dead...but he did know he was the one person he wanted to most survive the fall of the Overking). Now the dust has
settled and he has expanded his region of influence slowly, but fast enough that he is still a very powerful force to be reckoned with.

John Wright

Winter Fantasy 2000

Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 10:02AM PST
From: Scott Casper Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] Winter Fantasy 2000

Hi! Here at last is my much-delayed report on Winter Fantasy 2000. Erik Mona has already shared with us the only big news to come from the convention, but this may be useful to anyone else thinking of attending Winter Fantasy in the future. If you
learn nothing else, make sure to never play a tournament module written by Gregory Detwiller!

Hi again! This last weekend, I attended Winter Fantasy 2000 for Saturday only. This is my story.

I drove to the convention, making sure to arrive the night before so I could get to the convention quickly in the morning. However, I had chosen a Motel 6 to save money. This motel was located in the red light district of Ft. Wayne, which consisted of the entire west side of town. There were more strip clubs on one street then there were fire hydrants.

That's all I'll say on that subject...

Ft. Wayne has a very tiny downtown. In fact, it's so small that some residents one might ask for directions do not even know where it is. "Head that way and look for the tall buildings," one of them might say. But such a person not only is clueless as to where their downtown is, but has also clearly never been to Chicago. As a Chicagoan, Ft. Wayne's "tall buildings" looked more like speed bumps to me.

So I arrived for the convention, but ten minutes past the start of the first time slot. My disappointment was not lessened when I learned that two-thirds of the events I had wanted for that day were booked solid already. I also discovered soon enough what a small con Winter Fantasy was. There was no open gaming. What passed for an exhibit hall looked more like somebody's closet with a lot of people crammed into it. Kenzer was the only big name company with a booth. Later, I compared notes with the guy manning the booth about how hard it is to get published by DUNGEON Magazine.

Luckily, I ran into my friend Darren almost right away. He is big-time into the RPGA, and had actually signed up for the Living Greyhawk Preview even ahead of time (I had assumed it would be more like a seminar for a larger crowd). I sat at the table next to his and listened in as some TSR guy explained how 3rd edition is supposed to work. I've since read more about 3rd ed. rules than I was able to overhear, but I was impressed at the time by aspects of the initiative system (though I detest the 6-second round), disappointed with clerical spell domains which seem to limit selection even more than spheres did, and shivered at the thought of Find Familiar being reduced to a cantrip.

Erik Mona was running the same thing at the table on the other side of me. Darren was with a group of Living City players who were curious about Living Greyhawk, but Erik's group consisted almost entirely of the Dyvers triad and their entourage. The Dyvers team was the most visible triad at the convention, and even had spiffy Dyvers T-shirts! Erik Mona seemed to recognize me and asked me how I was doing. I bored him for a bit about how awful my morning was turning out. Most of the time, I just sat there working on Greyhawk material.

After the Previews ended, and after exhausting what little there was to do at the con without an event ticket, I wandered outdoors to see what "downtown" Ft. Wayne had to offer. It turned out to be much more interesting than the convention! In addition to a variety of neighboring fast food places, there was a conservatory (but I balked at the thought of having to pay to enter when Chicago's conservatory is free). A few blocks away, however, was the County Public Library -- and was that place ever great! Comicbook racks of the latest titles that could be checked out, an impressive graphic novel collection in Young Adults (all the trade paperbacks of BONE, plus two USAGI YOJIMBO collections), a Government Documents department that put my own to shame, and -- coincidentally -- the Children's Dept. was having Middle Ages-inspired activities!

I killed a lot of time there, but came back to the convention late that afternoon. There was a seminar about Living Greyhawk where we got to meet the Council and all the triads in attendance, and hear a little about their progress and plans. I was looking for the Verbobonc triad, and heard that one of them was there, but never saw him. I also heard from some people in the crowd that Gamma World was coming back (yeah!), but as an Alternity setting (boo!). Erik Mona announced the Living Greyhawk newsletter, as well as Polhedron's commitment to publishing Greyhawk material. I asked if the newsletter would require a separate subscription from Polyhedron, and was told it wouldn't. After the seminar, I wanted to ask Erik if there were plans to assign Ahlissa yet, and if Polyhedron would like articles on Ahlissa, but the Council members were all hungry for dinner and didn't seem to be in the mood to answer more questions.

I had managed to get just ONE event ticket for something I had wanted to play, and that was the Call of Cthulu Open. As luck would have it, my friend Darren had signed up for it as well. And he knew our Keeper personally from his RPGA experience, so it looked to be a good time. I could not have been more wrong. The adventure was a piece of excrement written by a bed-wettting moron named Gregory Detwiller. The adventure started out with our characters being drugged and then mind-transferred into the bodies of members of the Great (though not in this context) Race of Yith. From there the module squashes all chances to role-play, as the Yithians punish you for showing any signs of denial. Everyone is expected to blindly accept life as a Yithian, as there is no chance of escape UNTIL a certain section of the tournament when a ridiculously huge window of opportunity presents itself. From there it's just wandering Cthulu encounters until everyone runs out of Sanity points. Of course, long before that happened, my character strangled himself to death to spare himself from the pain and frustration which is a Gregory Detwiller tournament.

I never did find out who won that round. Thankfully there wasn't a second round of it. The Keeper apologized for the tournament module afterwards, confessing that it had gone so badly the day before that it had made her cry. Darren and I complained to somebody (Darren said he was important) about the appaling lack of intelligence in Gregory Detwiller's writing, to which he replied that this was not the first time he had heard as much.

And so, having experienced what the RPGA has to offer, I returned to my motel, and the next day left to come home.

Re: The Educated Flanaess (still long)

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:04:54 GMT
From: Paul Looby
Subject: Re: The Educated Flanaess (still long)

>Paul wrote that:
> >>> In Rel Astra certainly - Old Oeridian rules the roost, though in places
>like Eastfair or Rel Deven, Common has more of a foothold <<<
>So does Drax the Invulnerable only speak Old Oeridian?

Probably yes - but Common as well. I was referring more to the Colleges. My impression of the city at large is that the people speak both Common and Old Oeridian - but some might take a very French attitude to Common speakers - refusing to speak it to them, though they know full well how to.

>Is the "decadence" of Eastfair represented in its using Common for scholarly work?

From a stuffy old Rel Astran scholar's point of view, yes - amongst other things....

>Why Rel Deven as a progressive place? With a Cranden ruler, I wonder if Rel Deven might be more traditional than any other Aerdian city?

This is possible - but its had to deal with more of the ups and downs of Aerdi history directly than Rel Astra. As with the Cranden nobles this probably led to a fracturing of the scholarly community - those which retreated into the past and traditions, and those which embraced the changes and adapted. Rel Astra too has inputs of new thoughts and ideas - though its port and trade - and it it these new ideas and the need to change which drive the younger scholars there in their bid to over turn the dusty morter-boards and capes at the top, IMO

>So Trinity was rebuilt at least once between 1592 and the 1700s.

Or was rehoused on the same site at least - and the older buildings were subsequently demolished and built upon. I don't recall any records of the College being sacked during upheavals such as the rebellion in 1641, Cromwell's devestations in the late 1640's or in the Williamite-Jacobite wars of the 1690's - which is not to say such did not occuer. (Trinity is my alma mater btw, if you hadn't already guessed). :)

>However, I see the other buildings as simply being purchased over the centuries as Grey College grew to need more space. In contrast the School of Clerkship was a planned campus. Any flaws with this development?

Seems plausible.

>Paul wrote:
> >>> Rauxes probably had or still has extensive lore in the remains of its libraries and vaults. And let's not forget Pontylver and Mentrey. <<<

>I _have_ forgotten Pontlyver. What is it noteworthy for?

Ivid the Undying mentions that it was a city known for its sages, scholars and learning before it went up in flames during the madness of the Wars.

>Yet Fiend-Sage aside, I consider Rel Astra more of a mercantile place than a city of learning. Will the details for its rennaissance be explicated please?

It is now and probably always will be - but in its heyday it was not only for a time the capital of Aerdy, but also the gateway of the Great Kingdom at its height to the Solnor, Hepmonaland and the Azure Sea (until later competition from the Nyrondese, Almorian and South Province ports). At that time its wealth and drive also fueled as a spin off its scholastic achievements. As the Great Kingdom declined, and the Aerdi turned inwards concerned with internal turmoils, thought stagnated. Money became more important than knowledge to the people of Rel Astra as it was a more tangible asset in troubled times. This petty small mindedness also infected the colleges - and so bred the current dusty order - who refuse to embrace change and cling to old, certain, but ultimately stagnant ways.

Rel Astra's sagely rennaissance is only just beginning (if it has the chance continue is another question). In the last decades of the Great Kingdom as was, Rel Astra was already slowly drifting from the orbit of Rauxes. The city would have to fend for itself - no longer be a satellite, but be the great city it is. This attitude has bloomed since the wars and has infected the younger scholars, who take an interst not only in the halcyon days of Rel Astran scholarship, but in the means by this glorious end was achieved - by looking outward at the world.

>Eastfair is the largest city of Northern Aerdy, so having colleges there works well.

One maybe two at most - dominated by the Hextorites.

>Okay so Radigast City is a proposed Rennaissance Italy, and Belissica gains the nickname Medici? ;) Again I suggest throwing some Eleanor of Aquitaine into that Countess!

Well - I'm not sure about a Rennaissance, entailing all the historical baggage that that word brings with it, but certainly the large trade cities of the Nyr Dyv have not only wealth, and exposure to diverse cultures, influances and ideas, but also have become the home to large numbers of refugees from the Wars. This has many parallels with the Italian city states of around the 14th and 15th centuries. The Nyr Dyv cities, like the Italian cities, though to a somewhat lesser extent, are also the heirs to a proud(ish) Imperial cultural past (before it turned to complete decandence and evil) - that of the Great Kingdom, which once encompassed them all. So yes, I see, Radigast, Dyvers, Greyhawk, and Leukish to an extent as a
hotbed for new ideas in the Central Flanaess. Rel Astra too may have its chance if the hints at exploration from its port and by the Sea Barons to Hepmonaland and beyond are brought to fruition.

>And "skeptics" in Nellix, tsk, tsk. My but this Flanaess has been rather educated all along. "But they wear _pants_!" :P

Some of them have been educated - yes. Most aren't. I'd see the average Ekbirian on the street having a greater appreciation of the world and learning than your average person in Radigast or Chendl or Dyvers.

>Regarding Velunan attitudes, I too like the idea of prejudiced, righteous, and "superior" Velunan attitudes. Whereas the Ketites would be considered barbarians, the Furyondians (and Bisselites) are treated as children, and the Keolanders and Verboboncians are contemptible. However I wouldn't want
>to overdo it. Rao is not Pholtus, after all.

Hmm.. that might be a bit harsh - remember the Velunese and the Furyondians were almost fellow country men for a while. I think the Velunese would have sympathy for the Bisselites - who've had to put up with not only the Ketites, but the Keoish. The Keoish might be regarded with a degree of suspicion, given their past (the Short War), or exasperation (given their dithering while nations fell) - but generally perhaps as good, if arrogant, people with wrong priorities (if only they were more like us - which ironically is probably exactly what the Keoish think of the Velunese).

>To my knowledge there is close to nothing published regarding Daern.
>However, Irongate does seem centrally enough located to be her historical home base. I want Daern's symbol to be chiseled onto the Velunan bridges of Caronis and the old Ritensa Bridge as well as several cities within the South Province and Darmen Lands of old.

So that's Irongate, southern Aerdy, Furyondy, Veluna and perhaps the matematical schools of the West. hmm..quite a journey - and an intersting tale no doubt.

>I can relate that Elayne Mystica was overheard at a dinner party explaining something that she saw in a Daern sketchbook. It was something about a way for ships to cross the isthmus between the southern Vast Swamp where it meets Spine Ridge. Completely fantatical and impractical, of course, but such a route would render the SB Tilva Strait blockade useless . . .

Bah - probably some nonsense about digging a path through a mountain or some such. It is said that the good lady was partial to Dwur drinking establishments (a rumour, you understand) and Dwur spirits. Cynics have cited this as the inspiration for some of her wilder flights of fantasy. :P

>Regarding troubadours, it seems like Countess Belissica is only a latter day saint when compared with the "dimming memory of the noonlight of Loriaelor!"
>Alas for Nevondeer! ::raises chalice::

For sure much of the lore that yet remained of that great realm was surely lost in the sack of Nevondeer. Nonetheless, the echo of its songs linger yet in the streets of Radigast and Trigol, Brotton and Midmeadow, Borneven and Rel Mord, lilting from the lips of poor Tenha bards singing for coppers. Though beauty fades, the embers glow long among the ashes.

paul

Re: Zip and ...Tudor?

Date sent: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:06:30 -0400
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Eric Tomasi
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Zip and ...Tudor?
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

At 05:21 PM 9/18/97 CST, you wrote:
>Hello again.

>On a not entirely unrelated matter, Gary Gygax mentioned earlier
>today that he envisioned the architecture of Greyhawk City as
>resembling the styles from our world's 15th-17th centuries. With
>indoor plumbing no less! I was shocked. This is in relation to a
>game where characters are routinely denied compasses and firearms
>that were around in the 13th century. I just can't deal with that
>much variation from our world's technological progress. In fact, I
>had just recently been thinking that my 15th century focus for
>GREYHAWK was too far-fetched and I had better tone it down to the
>14th century!
>Scott “Volstagg” Casper

I think you might be too tied into european architectual and technological process. You have to understand, most of the limited progress of technology during the middle ages could be attributed to the presence of a monolithic religion which did in no way encourage that sort of thing. Greyhawk doesn't have that.

Also, you can model greyhawk in some ways as a european/mediterranean model.

1. The Invoked Devastation as a the Fall of the Roman Empire.
2. The rise & fall of the great Kingdom as middle ages
3. before and after the Greytalk wars and the early rennaissance.

Of course this is overly simplistic because other cultures were not drastically effected by the invoked devastation (ie, demihumans). Also because the world has Magi, some things are simply irrevalent. Wizards can do most things by magic so why develop the technology.

But I digress....

Architecture styles aren't necessarily dependent upon technological progress, mearly upon cultural influences. Also, remember that Greeks and Romans had indoor plumbing. The early version of the pump, the archimedes screw, was developed in greece around ~1500BCE (I think, don't quote me on this). Because this was lost to europeans does not mean it was lost during the invoked devastation. It is just so expensive that only the wealthiest have it.

Firearms are a special case. I think it takes some of the “magic” out of the game when firearms are added. It may be irrational, but that's the way I feel. I suppose you could justify it by saying that only wizards would discover smoke powder, and they would have no interest in promoting its use. Quite the opposite actually.
Eric Tomasi
etomasi@gator.net
“It's ok to make a deal with the Devil...as long as you work freelance.”

Re: The Educated Flanaess (still long)

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:13:24 -0800
From: Marc Tizoc Gonzalez
Subject: Re: The Educated Flanaess (still long)

Regarding Grey College and the School of Clerkship (maybe we can change this name?), in staring at that illustration map some more, it seems that only the School has a planned campus. Grey College is instead several large multi-story buildings on either side of University Street. In fact the School looks almost castle-like with only a single entrance (don't let those students get away!). This detail supports Grey College being older than the School; perhaps the School was created just after (and by) those sages that Paul postulates fled from the "rebel provinces," during the decade 253-263CY? I like the idea that some of these sages represent members of the clergy of Delleb who fled for fear/hatred/disgust at Rao imperialism of scholarship, and it makes particular sense for Dellebians (Paul's word) to found the School of Clerkship. :)

Thus Paul is correct in stating that:
>>> these sages brought with them the ideal of the campus - a memory of the
religious cloisters of the west. <<<

I too dislike being overly CoG-centric, but it is also perversely fun to place things like the Empire of Vecna right where Nerof Gasgal now sleeps. :P

Regarding Persian or Arabic universities, I know _nada_. Maybe that history buff, Damon or the master of the classics, Mark Kelly, or Mr. Civilized Bakluna himself, Wayne can help us out? ;)

Paul wrote that:
>>> In Rel Astra certainly - Old Oeridian rules the roost, though in places
like Eastfair or Rel Deven, Common has more of a foothold <<<

So does Drax the Invulnerable only speak Old Oeridian? Is the "decadence" of Eastfair represented in its using Common for scholarly work? Why Rel Deven as a progressive place? With a Cranden ruler, I wonder if Rel Deven might be more traditional than any other Aerdian city?

So Trinity was rebuilt at least once between 1592 and the 1700s. Can anyone else tell us about more famous universities, maybe an _alma mater_? I guess that Grey College was never completely rebuilt/renovated since only three hundred years have passed since its speculative founding (circa 250CY), and the CoG has not been invaded since this time; similarly the fires have not been in Clerkburg. Likely Grey College began in a smaller building at the site of its current main building. This may have been demolished and the larger structure made during the construction of the School of Clerkship. With more funds raised (from the _creme_ of the established families, the renewed Grey College was completed earlier, so its distinction (of being the oldest and most prestigious university in the CoG) is preserved. However, I see the other buildings as simply being purchased over the centuries as Grey College grew to need more space. In contrast the School of Clerkship was a planned campus. Any flaws with this development?

Paul wrote:
>>> Rauxes probably had or still has extensive lore in the remains of its libraries and vaults. And let's not forget Pontylver and Mentrey. <<<

I _have_ forgotten Pontlyver. What is it noteworthy for? Mentrey definitely has archives although much of its lore was made to agree with the doctrine of the temple of Hextor. Nowadays of course the city is ruined. Still, if you want to send any adventurers to search vaults for books, this is a suitable place.

Yet Fiend-Sage aside, I consider Rel Astra more of a mercantile place than a city of learning. Will the details for its rennaissance be explicated, please? Rel Deven's Cranden ruler is a scholar, IIRC, so I like lots of Dellebian lore being there, and Eastfair is the largest city of Northern Aerdy, so having colleges there works well. But we should remember that according to one of the '98 books, King Grenell proclaimed Old Oeridian the state language although it was noted that he continues to use Common. More strife for the academics!

Okay so Radigast City is a proposed Rennaissance Italy, and Belissica gains the nickname Medici? ;) Again I suggest throwing some Eleanor of Aquitaine into that Countess!

Olidamara is the likely source of hedonistic belief in the Flanaess. Maybe Myhriss (through her troubador/troveres) inspires epicurean-oid beliefs. Or is this a much older system that traces its origin to the rapture of Hanali Celanil?

And "skeptics" in Nellix, tsk, tsk. My but this Flanaess has been rather educated all along. "But they wear _pants_!" :P

Regarding Velunan attitudes, I too like the idea of prejudiced, righteous, and "superior" Velunan attitudes. Whereas the Ketites would be considered barbarians, the Furyondians (and Bisselites) are treated as children, and the Keolanders and Verboboncians are contemptible. However I wouldn't want to overdo it. Rao is not Pholtus, after all.

To my knowledge there is close to nothing published regarding Daern. However, Irongate does seem centrally enough located to be her historical home base. I want Daern's symbol to be chiseled onto the Velunan bridges of Caronis and the old Ritensa Bridge as well as several cities within the South Province and Darmen Lands of old. Will anyone tell us where else they've seen her mark? I can relate that Elayne Mystica was overheard at a dinner party explaining something that she saw in a Daern sketchbook. It was something about a way for ships to cross the isthmus between the
southern Vast Swamp where it meets Spine Ridge. Completely fantatical and impractical, of course, but such a route would render the SB Tilva Strait blockade useless . . .

Regarding troubadours, it seems like Countess Belissica is only a latter day saint when compared with the "dimming memory of the noonlight of Loriaelor!"

Alas for Nevondeer! ::raises chalice::

Much Amedio lore must have been in private libraries (a guild's) in Monmurg, but there is also some in the Matreyus estate, north of Gradsul, if we believe Mr. Roger Moore. Much of this lore as well as what Paul calls "neutral knowledge" was plundered and sent to Tilva Lands. But Pyremian pyres still light the nights in Monmurg.

I'm partial to Lyceum because of Ultima III, but maybe Lydium will grow on me. It's rather Latin, isn't it? Isn't cour French for heart, or is it correctly spelled coeur? What is the Latin for heart?

Marc Tizoc
a registered motormouth

Re: Cities and Universities

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:51:47 GMT
From: Paul Looby
Subject: Re: Cities and Universities

>I like cathedral school models for Delleb and Rao, but prefer an Athenian grove of trees for Lydia.

Temple schools do fit the more Oeridian/northern/eastern picture better. Delleb certainly and Rao - in canon after the faith had been "civilised" probably by the Oerids and Aerdi (though in the Mighty Fallen heresy - Loriaelor had great schools and colleges dedicated to the Master of Reason when the Oerids still lived in yurts in the west (of which the Crescent College of Rel Mord is perhaps now the only extant survivor - the Fall of Loriaelor saw Alexandria many times over)).

>Boccob's temples could be based on these cathedral schools.

I see these as being more arcane and esoteric. If you want historical parallels (which it is possible to go overboard with if care is not taken) - then alchemists and the like might be closer to to mark than cathedral schools.

>Just because the Observatory of Celestian outside the Free City is affiliated with Grey College, I don't think that in general the priesthood teaches based on a cathedral-school model.

Agreed - an exception rather than a rule.

>Any ideas on Zagyg, Zan Yae, or Zuoken (Xagaeg, Xan Yae, and Xuoken)? ;)

Zagyg - nothing - to wild and unpredictible
My knowlegde of the others is to scant to suggest anything beyond - monestaries or solitary hermit masters for the mental disciplines (or perhaps the Bakluni equivalent of Dojos in the West (?).

>Was Incabulous noted as furthering the Age of Great Sorrow in a published source?

Not by name - but I'm fairly sure I recall a line in the 83 set about the Age of Great Sorrow being connected with a plague or plagues. I don't have the books to hand, so I could be mistaken.

>I like the image of blindered Veluna, Furyondy, and Nyrond. Veluna suffering from intellectual hubris,

Intellectual and moral to an extent. There'd be a slight religious dimension to tit - though nothing on the scale of Pholtine intolerance - more a sense of moral superiority: "Are we not a rational people, devoted as we are to reason? How much more blessed we are than those who strive for power and wealth, yet do not know themselves or the world!"

>Note that the published century or so remark gives Furyondy a good 150 years after its independence to establish its powerful mages and sages, but that after winning the Small War, it seems to have sat on its laurels.
>This also connects with Belvor II's not having quashed Iuz when he had the chance. Thus Belvor IV is truly a great king.

My knowledge of Furyondian history (as with so much of the west) is patchy (I've only skimmed that half of Marklands). Internal turmoil may have paralysed the country somewhat. When Ferrond broke away it held vast territories - Voll, perhaps parts of Perrenland (some of the lowlands - though tenouously at best), the current lands of Iuz and the Horned Lands and like most of the Shield and Bandit lands (which I group under the banner of Lorrond - the old Aerdi name for the province). Over the years Furyondy has been pared back to its current borders - losing even its former captial.
This has not so much been by conquest (until relatively recent times) as disintegration - probably due to the diffculty of the king to establish effective control over his feudal magnates - something which still plagues the kingdom to this day. This baronial feuding may have hindered intellectual development - scholars generally preferring the peace of the closters of Veluna, or the vibrant young city of Greyhawk or Dyvers after its independance, or the great libraries of the Imperial (or formerly so) east.

>Burning famous Aerdian lore probably occurred just after the revolutions when fervor was still high.

Yep - 250's and 350's respectively. And just before.

Paul

Bigger EGGS

[NOTE: As in some previous posts transcribed from my printouts, some words were cut off when printed and are now lost. -SC]

Date sent: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:40:13 -0500
Send reply to: Gary and Gail Gygax
From: Gary and Gail Gygax
Subject: [GREYTALK] Bigger EGGS
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Scott & Jenn wrote:

>I figured this was going to happen once Gygax joined the list- people a
out to
>prove that they are intelligent and witty and thus must engage themselves
in a
>duel of words with Gygax...which instead of allowing him to be a useful
>contributor of information forces him into spending what little time he
>devote to the list defending himself (I can see RJK tearing the hair from
his
>head now...). C'mon people, get real. Love his work, hate his work, l
not
>devote the next 6 months to “who can one-up Gygax”. Do we really need
>critique the spelling of his posts?? I think we all make those mistakes
yet
>only he is picked on for it...you know what he meant, GET OVER IT!! Th
I am
>sure he won't (probably because he is amussed by it all) I wouldn't blame
him at
>all for leaving this list. He logs and we beat him over the head with
a
>stick.

Because it is amusing to see the silly attacks, coming from people who wouldn't have a fanclub to belong to if it weren't for me, and that's from writing the underlying game system to creating the world base of which they are fans of, I am not lgoing to leave. To be blunt, the “attacks” are pretty inept and don't score damage, so to speak. I used to spar in private with Jerry Pournelle, L. Sprague, and Jack Chalker, amongst others (such John boardman in the pages og his wrteched Dippy zine GRAUSTARK ;). Compared to that, these are club fighters. So never fear! The detractors armed with their sticks, me with my well-honed bardiche, the contest is
mismatch and pure fun for me.

>I am NOT saying you cannot or should not disagree with him, but let's
>keep it relevant to the particular post at hand.

Golly! I do hope some disagreement will occur. That's one of the best
to learn something—like the other person's POV. I, for one, will keep as civil as my opponent's, but I reserve the right to be irreverent and iconoclastic.

>We claim to be mature gamers
>with ideas to share yet all he has seen so far are little boys cat fighting.

Well, that seems rather true, I am sad to say, in regard to some of the comments I have seen. But it is easy to ignore obstreperous kiddies. ;)

>Oh, and if can't resist the urge to continue swapping barbs with Gygax,
so
>via private e-mail...the rest of us are NOT impressed. And to Gary Welsh
this
>is NOT directed at you, only that your name happens to be part of the long post
>that has driven me to beating my fists against the computer and writing
this
>note.

Aw, don't get over-dramatic here. It isn't like I am all that important
anything really. Things got along well enough here before I joined, right? So the world isn't going to end if I don't contribute much to the list. On the other hand, there are some things I might be able to contribute that might be use of some here . . .

>And, my own plug, I am still waiting to hear from people on the ½ Giant
>thing... :)

Hmm. I know a half-halfling is a quartling, but a half-giant? Can't h
there!

Ciao!
Gary Gygax
mailto:ggygax@genevaonline.com
visit my website at http://www.gygax.com
and play LEGENDARY ADVENTUREtm FRPG!
Vote for MING THE MERCILESS in 1999
Start early, vote often!
Forget getting tough on crime.
IT IS TIME TO GET TOUGH ON EVERYONE!
Hey Look! A new professional RPG magazine: TROLL.
Famous guys like ME have columns and articles in it ;)

The Educated Flanaess (was Wizards guild/society/school)(long)

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:08:13 -0800
From: Marc Tizoc Gonzalez
Subject: The Educated Flanaess (was Wizards guild/society/school) (long)

Here's a response to Paul Looby's post from last week. It was a mine full of gems, and I hope that plenty of other folks saved it for future reference.

>>> I'd go for a less organised approach - campuses were a later innovation.
Nonetheless - the cities below would have univerities of the more scattered group of colleges style IMO.
<<<

This is a good point. I don't know the history of campuses, but Paul suggests that for Greyhawk:
>>>
the campused uni as being a more modern - perhaps central Flanaeess innovation rather than Aerdi (I've always seen Rel Astra for instance as being a very staunchly traditional Oerid city.).
<<<

And when I refer to the maps of CoG, then I see that Grey College and the School of Clerkship have campuses while the University of Magical Arts is merely a single (large) building. The notes for Grey College state that in addition to the campus, "certain parts of the school are scattered throughout other small buildings in Clekburg and even beyond."

So maybe the campus begins in the CoG? Since Zagig founded the University of Magical Arts, I like having Grey College and the School of Clerkburg being pre-Zagig. From tAB I see that Zagig's reign begins in 310CY, and the Old City was walled during 200CY, so unless the universities were once independent of the city, then I suggest that they were founded during the rule of Ponjes the Bull, the first Mayor of Greyhawk; around 250CY is probably a good date.

>>> It might indeed be in Mitrik or Chendl with western and religious (think
abbeys and cloisters) influences where the campus is first established (?).
<<<

The CoG isn't my favorite place (Go Dyvers!), but I won't begrudge it the birth of the campus, since this "modern" institution does have canon references that go back some time. However, according to Wayne's website, the universities of civilized Bakluna are both older and superior to those of the Flanaess. (I especially like Wayne's references to Baklunish astronomy and mathematics! Did Daern study geometry in Ceshra?)

>>> Rel Astra
Stronghold of traditional oerid scholars - though attempts are being made by younger scholars to challenge the establishment - with limited success so far.
<<<

So the Aerdian scholarly language is Old Oeridian? Are lectures given in Common, and just the texts are in Old Oeridian, or is it Old Oeridian or bust? Perhaps the change in language represents some of the challenges to the establishment?

>>> Greyhawk City
Has a group of colleges rather than a campus I thought - could be wrong. <<<

See above. There are actually two small campuses in Clerkburg. It's likely that they were refurbished after my speculative founding date of around 250CY. How many buildings made up historical Trinity College, Harvard, Yale, Oxford, or Cambridge (in no particular order)?

>>> Rel Mord
The main stronghold of the Sagacious (sp?) Society in Nyrond. Noteable colleges inculde the venerable Crecent College - which has extensive records and expertise in the field of history - esp Pre-Migration lore. <<<

I had forgotten the name of the Sagacious Society. From Paul's signature, I assume that Crescent College is his invention. In _The Marklands_ I see that there is a Royal University in Rel Mord. Also Delleb's temple is mentioned as an archive, and of course the Glossography itself is penned by Pluffet Smedger, the Elder in CY998.

>>> Dyvers
Like GH if it has a wide mix of views, philosphies etcetc - particularly western bakluni ideas - given its trade links to the west - which find a more tolerant ear here than further west in Veluna or Furyondy.
<<<

After reading Wayne's pages, I'll suggest that the sages who teach western philosophies may be outcasts from the Evris e'Selant or the esoteric cult of Geshtai. How long have such things been taught in Dyvers? Has it been long enough so that Dyvers has unique cults?

>>> Rauxes
Long in decline before the eventual fall of the city. Once a bastion of free thought and one of the greatest institutions in the Flanaess - it became a home for critics of Imperial policy during the reign of the Rax. Tolerated under Ivid I, the later Ivids carcked down hard on the overly vocal - having many executed or dsappaered - forcing many others to flee either west or to Rel Deven, Rel Astra or elsewhere. Im later times it was packed with Naelax loyalists - teaching the glories of the rule of the Ivids etc <<<

Since Delleb is Oeridian, it makes sense that as the dynasty Naelex ascended, the worship of Delleb was similarly de-emphasized as that of Heironeous though not as dramatically. (But not if you believe the heresies of Taras Guarhoth-Cranden!) :)

Also, Cranden-ruled Rel Deven is an excellent candidate for remaining Dellebian archives since those that once existed in Chathold are no more. This recalls the burning of the libraries at historical Alexandria.

>>>>> Zeif
>Ekbir
esoteric and exotic philosophies and sciences - probably very tempered by religious thought (one reason why the Velunese don't like it). Any comment on this, Wayne?
<<<<<

Wayne may have already commented on this (I'm still two day behind on the digests.), but I've already blabbed about Wayne's placement of advanced mathematics and astronomy in the city of Ceshra or the teachers of the True Faith and the western devotees of Geshtai.

>>> Radigast City
A thriving university - patronsied by the Countess and the rich merhcants of the city.
[snip succinct yet detailed history] It is the source of a new philosophical movement - one which preaches that true wisdom and knowledge comes not from expertise in one narrow area but in appreciating the world in its entirity.
[snip further description of this (Epicurean-oid? Hedonistic?) philosophy]
This ideal no doubt has been strongly influanced by the experiences of the refugees in the devestation of the Wars. <<<

Does this come from the Mighty Fallen?

>>>>> Leukish
Gotta pull you up on this one - Nellix is the main seat of learning in the Duchy Urnst - with a loose affiliation of colleges. Leukish is probably too mercantile (fumbling in the greasy till and all that) to bother with too much esoteric scholarship (a bit like London and Oxford/Cambridge).
<<<<<

I was just going with Gary's list of populous cities, and Urnst isn't my domain, so I apologize for slighting Nellix-town. Isn't this where the sage Iquander hails? (I've got to make the time to read Erik Mona's (long) write up of the Duchy. It is in the Best of Greytalk, after all.)

>>> Mitrik
Very religious - the possible original campus - based on cloisters in temples of Rao and generally more organised and hierarchical structure, again borrowed from the church. While devoted to the pursuit of knowlege - the attitudes of the scholars here is coloured by religious teachings and historical attitudes to the Bakluni - which has lead to a rejection of ideas colming through the Fals Gap from the west. <<<

I'm leaning toward giving the original campus to Greyhawk City, but I'm not invested either way. I like Veluna, and Jesse's Church of the Voll rocked! I've included Delleb in that pantheon since I believe that Delleb is useful as the patron of scribes and the written word whereas Rao is the big introspection fellow. Harvard was originally a divinity school.

I agree that Veluna is a good place for prejudice against the Baklunish to be institutionalized in the Voll academy. Neither Rao nor Delleb are gods of truth, and even if another member of the divine family that the Church of Voll is dedicated to (Allitur/Cuthbert) ethics or honesty, then who would deny Velunan scholars the opportunity to say things like "Lopollan sages are merely apologists for or professional whiners about the True Faith." ;)

>>> Irongate
Probably very influenced by Dwur and noniz thought - therefore very practical and applied pursuits here. Little time for "airy fairy" philoshopical debates <<<

What says Maldin about the sages of Irongate? Does scholarly discourse utilize dwura-vocca or noniz-vocca? There should be eminent engineers here. Maybe an archive of Daern's workbooks exists here? She sure traveled a lot!

>>> Eastfair
Some refugees from Rauxes <<<

Eastfair is infamous for its sophisticated debauchery, and it has a cathedral to Hextor, if you believe Carl Sargent. Maybe a part time sage developed a systematic philosophy of hedonism here? Shouldn't Taras of the sage known as Volstag have something to say about this area?

>>>Admundfort
up in smoke! Many would have fled to Radigast, Nellix, Dyvers and GH. <<<

But of course. Raids that would not recompense too much magic might be to recover an Admundfort sage's works. Also, in keeping with the CoG-centric viewpoint of published works, the majority of Admundfort (and most of the Shield Lands except Critwall) sages chose the Gem of the Flanaess circa 582-585CY. That doesn't preclude later migrations to Dyvers or the Urnst cities, however.

>>> Rookroost
Doubt it very much - its not stable enough I think. <<<

Okay. I wasn't too attached to it, yet I kept putting sagery in only the cities of Good nations. Mages with power but no sages with paper. Still, Baron Kerzinen may have perceptively snatched a Tehna slave-sage from death. Stoink would have been the other city that I might have suggested had a sage in it.

>>> Gryrax
>Monmurg
Again - I don't think its exactly the place sages woudl find comfortable. <<<

These two names were together in Paul's post, and this time I wasn't sure if he only meant Monmurg or both of 'em. Gryrax might house sages in correspondence with those of Irongate, who use dwura-vocca in their lectures. I assume that Paul is referring to Monmurg's post-SB takeover ambience.

It is likely that whatever sages weren't _shar_ were inventively tortured by the cousins and uncles. An example might be to consume their own written words until they passed out, only to have more books waiting when they awoke. This continued until the victim ceased to be amusing, when more traditional torture would ensue. The SB strike me as book burners.

Also, it's somewhat tangential, but the film _Blood in the Face_ has a good detail for the SB. The phrase "blood in the face" is supposed to refer to the blushing that is only visible on fair skinned people. Only the Suel are capable of knowing shame and hence blushing. Thus all other psuedo-humans are only degenerates incapable of true nobility. It's chilling racist ideology, but it's nonetheless a keen detail.

>>> Jurnre
Centre of Suel learning - strong in Suel history and culture - though in a manner which incenses the Scarlet Brotherhood. <<<

I don't own FoI, so I wasn't sure what had been printed about education and Jurnre. I like the idea of independent sages rather than an actual university because of Jurnre's small size, but since I'm biased to favor the County of Ulek, I certainly wouldn't mind a college of some sort.

As my "Warrior Women of Ehlonna" posts have attempted to allude to, in Courwood some organized learning is centered in a sacred grove. Lydia is adored therein, and wolves are said to wander through the dawn and twilight mists of this Lyceum (Or perhaps Lycee' is better in keeping with the name Courwood? My French is terrible.)

Marc Tizoc Gonzalez

Re: Wizards guild/society/school

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 13:22:28 GMT
From: Paul Looby
Subject: Re: Wizards guild/society/school

>However, like Wayne, I do see a place for non-magical universities in the other great cities of the Flanaess.

I'd agree with this - partiularly large cities, with plenty of trade and exchange of ideas etc..

>If, like Gary, you prefer to restrict universities to Greyhawk City, then I'll not argue it, but if you want to play with universities in the Flanaess, then of the thirty cities that Gary listed, I suggest that the
>following have an actual campused university:

I'd go for a less organised approach - campuses were a later innovation.
Nonetheless - the cities below would have univerities of the more scattered group of colleges style IMO. Somehow I see the campused uni as being a more modern - perhaps central Flanaeess innovation rather than Aerdi (I've always seen Rel Astra for instance as being a very staunchly traditional Oerid city.). It might indeed be in Mitrik or Chendl with western and religious (think abbeys and cloisters) influences where the campus is first established (?).

Here's a few ideas for the flavours of the colleges in some of these palces just off the top of my head...(plus some comments)

>Rel Astra

Stronghold of traditional oerid scholars - though attempts are being made by younger scholars to challenge the establishment - with limited success so far.

>Greyhawk City

Has a group of colleges rather than a campus I thought - could be wrong.

>Rel Mord

The main stronghold of the Sagacious (sp?) Society in Nyrond. Noteable colleges inculde the venerable Crecent College - which has extensive records and expertise in the field of history - esp Pre-Migration lore.

>Dyvers
Like GH if it has a wide mix of views, philosphies etcetc - particualrly western bakluni ideas - given its trade links to the west - which find a more tolerant ear here than further west in Veluna or Furyondy.

>Rauxes
Long in decline before the eventual fall of the city. Once a bastion of free thought and one of the greatest institutions in the Flanaess - it became a home for critics of Imperial policy during the reign of the Rax. Tolerated under Ivid I, the later Ivids carcked down hard on the overly vocal - having many executed or dsappaered - forcing many others to flee either west or to Rel Deven, Rel Astra or elsewhere. Im later times it was packed with Naelax loyalists - teaching the glories of the rule of the Ivids etc

>Zeif
>Ekbir

esoteric and exotic philosophies and sciences - probably very tempered by religious thought (one reason why the Velunese don't like it). Any comment on this, Wayne?

>Radigast City

A thriving university - patronsied by the Countess and the rich merhcants of the city. It has stuggled long and hard to emerge from the shadow of the Colleges of Rel Mord, which founded several of the Radigast Colleges as offshoots. Enriched not only by the exchange in ideas which travel readily along the trade routes, but by the influx of refugee scholars from Tenh, the Shield Lands and Nyrond and the rest of the shattered east. It is the source of a new philosophical movement - one which preaches that true wisdom and knowledge comes not from expertise in one narrow area but in appreciating the world in its entirity. Some scholars have taken this further and have promoted this as a philosophy for life - given the darkness
of the age and the uncertainty and brevity of life - one should not confine oneself to just one path - rather one should taste of the many different flavours which life has to offer - while one can. This ideal no doubt has been strongly influenced by the experiences of the refugees in the devestation of the Wars.

>Niole Dra
>Leukish

Gotta pull you up on this one - Nellix is the main seat of learning in the Duchy Urnst - with a loose affiliation of colleges. Leukish is probably too mercantile (fumbling in the greasy till and all that) to bother with too much esoteric scholarship (a bit like London and Oxford/Cambridge).

>Mitrik

Very religious - the possible original campus - based on cloisters in temples of Rao and generally more organised and hierarchical structure, again borrowed from the church. While devoted to the pursuit of knowlege - the attitudes of the scholars here is coloured by religious teachings and historical attitudes to the Bakluni - which has lead to a rejection of ideas colming through the Fals Gap from the west.

>Chendl

>These eleven cities (a dozen including Dyvers) might lack universities but instead have many sages. A few of them might have scholarly societies but not quite a guild of sages:

>Irongate

Probably very influenced by Dwur and noniz thought - therefore very practical and applied pursuits here. Little time for "airy fairy" philoshopical debates

>Eastfair

Some refugees from Rauxes

>Schwartzenbruin
>Lopolla
>Admundfort

up in smoke! Many would have fled to Radigast, Nellix, Dyvers and GH.

>Rookroost

Doubt it very much - its not stable enough I think.

>Gryrax
>Monmurg

Again - I don't think its exactly the place sages woudl find comfortable.

>Tringlee
>Verbobonc
>Jurnre

Centre of Suel learning - strong in Suel history and culture - though in a manner which incenses the Scarlet Brotherhood.

Just some thoughts

Paul

Re: Ron Gaw's paladins and their powers

Date sent: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:21:38 -0400
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Ronald Melvin Gaw
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Ron Gaw's paladins and their powers
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, SCOTT CASPER wrote:

:
:Lastly, I think we should hear a little more from Ronald Gaw about
:his theory of paladins. If paladins are treated as agents of mankind
:instead of agents of the gods, then who grants them their clerical
:spells at higher levels?
:
:Scott “Volstagg” Casper
:Almost never rolls stats high enough to play paladins
:

Well, IMC power of the deities is a direct result of their worshipper's support and belief (helps explain why the evil deities, with few worshippers, are still powerful, since even the 'good' people believe in them). Along similar lines, a Paladin's powers come from his/her belief in LAWFUL GOOD. The linking factor between these (and magic, IMC) is that the powers and benefits one receives is an individual's way of drawing from some mystical essence that attempts to make belief's into reality (well, real fantasy ;). I have named this essence 'Living Magic', you can name it what you will. It requires specialized ways of communicating the beliefs (i.e., magic-users do it one way, clerics another), but Paladins reach this source mostly out of their pure, non-political belief, a type of belief which is so strong it breaks the communications barrier between the 'living magic' in a way the other users don't or can't.

I hope my players heed my warning and stop reading any further. The next portion of this text is going to describe a portion of my version of Greyhawk to be revealed after many adventures.


What the various different user types have not realized in Greyhawk eons is how to fully harnass this 'power of belief'. Paladins do it inadvertantly (they are not trying to make it something greater). Most dieties know it grants them their spheres of power, but even they do not know how to harnass it fully (in most cases, their personal origins on the planet Oerth have somewhat skewed their ability, even as dieties, to believe in something without any doubts whatsoever!). Even the greatest of the old dieties, of which Tharizdun is one, who know of the full strength and possibilies (they 'think' they do, as opposed to completely believing they know it's full extents. Otherwise, there would be no chance of it's power becoming greater than it already has achieved), are not capable of nonchalantly calling its power. It requires their true thoughts, desires and personality to accomplish total belief, and this is both difficult and dangerous for them. It is like admitting there is something greater than themselves, and they are loathe to do this.

It turns out that the greatest of the mages and clerics of Oerth's cloudy past knew of this 'power of belief' at one time. Unable to overcome their own inability to believe, they realized that their only true source of harnassing this power was children. Children could be taught (at least at early ages) to completely and unquestionably believe in something. Although it might have taken years of careful culturing and development, those who controlled these children could accomplish feats no spell or arcane device that ever existed could accomplish. The farthest seeing of these 'harnassing mages' learned that a portion of the power derived from such belief could be trapped inside objects, and thus the most powerful artifacts and relics were created. Unfortunately for the harnassing mages, they could not completely control the children, and the children had an uncanny way of letting their thoughts wander, introducing side effects in these devices.

Although this is the explanation I currently have adapted for my version of Greyhawk, I'd like to clarify here that I do not currently, nor do I intend to in the future, explain this to the players. What I do with it is listen carefully to them during adventures, and if I can determine (subjective, I know, but hey...) when they really believe something is going to happen, is happening or has happened, I alter the story accordingly. It does create some havoc in my campaign development, but it also keeps it very creative. If the players ever figured this out and tried to tell me 'I really, really believe in ....', it might be difficult to explain to them that it doesn't work that way. But if they're good role-players, they might be able to use it in small ways (nothing greater than the powers currently Paladins) if they can demonstrate their character's belief by his/her reactions and actions.

If any of the groups, however, every achieve extremely high levels (20th or higher, not likely in my campaign due to the time required to accomplish this), I might open my Ultimate Campaign ideas bag of tricks and have them discover long-lost lore on Mighty Arch-Mages of the past raising an inordinate number of orphaned children!

That’s all for now,

Hiawa Yugha,
Barbarian Paladin from the Plains of the Paynims

FW: Good low level Adventures

Subject: [GREYTALK] FW: Good low level Adventures
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:35:39 -0700
From: "Matthewson, Kent"
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

> ----------
> From: Immaculate Image[SMTP:immaculateimage@HOTMAIL.COM]
>
"The City Of Greyhawk boxed set has some great 1 pg low level adventures. Among them are Wine Harvest, Siege of the Highfolk, Minding the Store, and The Final Resting Place of Dorshak Krane."
_________________

I used three of the low level adventure cards from the City of GH to start off our campaign, extending each adventure with additional material.

The players consisted of:

Gareth of Verbobonc - thief, formerly of a good family
Graham Trueseeker - Shield Lander, friend to the Rhennee and a Priest of Trithereon
Thorlag - a Snow Barbarian

SPOILERS

Minding the Store

Gareth's Fence, a man called Sennard Porbell, contacted Gareth to mind his "pawnshop" for a few days, taking his "muscle" with him for protection. Gareth recruited a recent acquaintance, Graham Trueseeker, as well as Thorlag the Barbarian, whose sword was in hock to Sennard, due to his heavy drinking and gambling losses.

After an attack by some angry customers looking for their property (which was not in evidence), and an attack by a contingent of the local thieves guild, they discovered that Sennard had heavy debts and was probably in the process of fleeing the city. Having been made "an offer they couldn't refuse" by the area lieutenant guildmaster, i.e. bring back Sennard or be responsible for his debts, the trio went to investigate at the Silver Dice Casino, where Sennard had been known to gamble (and lose) heavily.

Information was gleaned at the casino from a smuggler who refused (from fear of retribution from the Guild) to help Sennard, and who had instead referred him to the Rhenee (the barge-folk). Through Graham's contacts, the group was able to find and capture Sennard, after a tense battle and hostage taking

The Final Resting Place of Dorshak Krane

Having gained some measure of reknown, word of mouth led to them being contacted by the Guild of Jewelers and Gemcutters regarding the disappearance of Dorshak Krane, a dwarf gemcutter of incredible skill and artistry who had been working on the "Gem of Fire" - a large, dark gem with a deep red heart. Investigating his now abandoned mansion, the group discovered Dorshak Krane in hiding in a secret room in the attic, driven insane by fear. The gem had been taken by "Balor" who was discovered to be a wizard (illusionist) with a tower in the Foreign Quarter. The group set out to beard Balor in his lair. After fighting through his fierce war hounds and his deformed servant Nogrod, the party faced and defeated Balor, though he escaped capture by means of a wraithform spell. The gem, however, was recovered.

Bath Time for the Hopping Prophet

Terrorist activity, consisting of drive-by shootings (poisoned) and the kidnapping of a local merchant and others led the PC's to try and win the reward for apprehension of the villains and the safe return of the captives.

The group staked out a likely target, and as expected, the terrorists (grung) attacked. Fending off the attackers, the party tracked them to an old bath-house. Routing the enemy there, they were obliged to follow them into the sewers.

In the vast underground network of tunnels and cisterns, the PC's fought their way through giant crocodiles, an otyugh, and bullywugs to the secret Temple of Wastri, the Hopping Prophet. There they defeated the priest, Heironymous Spune, and freed the captives.

Kent Matthewson
www.greyhawk-codex.com

Co8 and the disappearing Prince

Subject: [GREYTALK] Co8 and the disappearing Prince
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:46:18 -0600
From: John C Wright
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Here is a prelude to my upcoming module that is midway in its completion. Hope
you all enjoy and I look forward to any constructive criticisms.

John Wright

********************************************************************************
Adventure Background: Several decades ago, in the late 570's, a temple of great evil arose again within the Flannaess. This 'Temple of Elemental Evil' had been vanquished once before, but as is often the case, the evil only lay dormant long enough for the forces of good to forget and turn an errant eye on the
area.

During this time the young son of King Belvor IV of Furyondy became betrothed to the daughter of the leader of Veluna. Their marriage would unite both kingdoms, and young Thrommel would become the leader of all matters temporal, while his wife would lead the united kingdoms in all matters spiritual. This would be a great blow to not only the forces of evil in the Flannaess, but it would greatly disrupt the balance. Good would hold sway over most lands, and the extra power garnered by the union of Furyondy and Veluna could likely bring about an age of unparalleled peace and prosperity. Mordenkainen, great sorcerer of the Citadel and Circle of Eight, was both an advocate of and defender of the 'Balance.' He firmly believed that with the rise of the Furyondy/Veluna kingdom, that although peace and good would reign for a time, the metaphysical representation of the balance would induce a cataclysm every bit the equal of the 'Invoked Devastation' or the 'Rain of Colorless Fire.' It was then that he began his plan to prevent this supposed cataclysm.

Mordenkainen turned to his colleagues in the Circle of Eight, and explained to them his beliefs. For the most part they all listened objectively, and in many cases nodded their agreement. All save one that is. Tenser had long been a proponent that the Circle should promote and work for good, not hinder it as it would evil forces in an effort to maintain the balance. Tenser argued long and hard against his colleagues, but on the third day of argument they called the matter to a vote. Right before the voting occurred, Mordenkainen spoke to him. "Tenser, we have been friends for years. We have studied many of the same magicks, learned under some of the same sources. We have long been close friends and trusted each other with our lives. Trust me in this, I know what is proper to do here. I would never mislead you and I would do nothing like this unless I knew it was warranted and there was no other way."

Tenser was swayed by the argument, and when the vote occurred, no one opposed it. The Circle began plans then on how best to bring about their result. Ideas of fomenting dissent and possibly war between the two kingdoms were heard, but to these Tenser vehemently refused to even hear more of. If good were to be dealt a blow, he wanted it isolated to a few individuals of power, rather than to a common populace at large.

Finally a plan was arrived at, the Circle would allow a subversive group they had heard of recently, in on the movements of Prince Thrommel, and entice them with a large offer of monetary reward to kidnap him. The Circle never mentioned who they were and worked through intermediaries to supply the Scarlet Brotherhood then with the means to penetrate the courts of Furyondy and spirit away Thrommel. When the agents of the Brotherhood had captured Thrommel, they were to meet with an agent of the Circle in the small village of Hommlet.

The Scarlet Brotherhood agents were successful, and quickly made it to Hommlet, easily evading even the best magical searches due to their high-powered help from the Circle. When the kidnappers reached Hommlet, Mordenkainen (disguised as a simple traveler), passed on to them the fee for their mission well done. The Scarlet Brotherhood agents smiled as they checked the payment, and then mentioned how nice it would be to receive not only this one payment, but a ransom as well. Mordenkain was furious at this betrayal, and quickly attacked the treacherous agents.

Thrommel took this one chance at escape and broke his bindings and sprinted away. An agent of the Brotherhood, seeing the Prince (and his payment) disappearing before his eyes, leveled a crossbow and fired. The bolt flew straight and drove into the Prince's spine. Thrommel collapsed, and then Mordenkainen's spells incinerated the last of the Brotherhood men.

Mordenkainen rushed over to the fallen Prince, and sighed when he saw how pale and deathly the Prince looked. As the Prince's life-blood flowed out Mordenkainen realized that the only way to save the Prince's life was a spell he had memorized in advance. Reaching down to the Prince, Mordenkainen lifted Thrommel's hand and examined the ring on his finger. Nodding in satisfaction, Mordenkainen etched something into the gem set on the ring and then began to chant. The Prince moaned weakly, and then gasped as a filmy white apparition of his body slipped free of his mortal confines and fell into the signet ring on his finger. Mordenkainen smiled grimly, his plan had not come off as cleanly as he would have preferred. Prying the gem from the ring, Mordenkainen then pocketed it, and standing he looked about. Nodding silently to himself, he then uttered a word and vanished from sight.

Several days later, brigands from the 'Temple of Elemental Evil' came across the bodies and proceeded to loot them. One item of note was an expensive signet ring bearing the heraldic symbol of Furyondy. It would be claimed by one of the higher priests down inside the temples dungeons and would remain there for a little while to come.

Later in the year though, a warlord by the name of Robilar came to Hommlet. He had heard of the missing adventurers and the rumors of not only evil, but of buried treasure. Not wanting to miss out on any sort of wealth, he proceeded into the temple, and laid waste to all who opposed him for two solid days. Reaching the lowest levels of the temple, Robilar had an insight into freeing yet another being of power (the reasons behind Robilar's being nearby in almost all cases of imprisoned deities/demon-lords breaking free still astounds many, perhaps he wasn't there by chance, but came with the express intent of freeing Zuggtmoy). Needless to say, after freeing the Fungi Queen, Robilar continued his looting, until he realized that the forces of good, led by Tenser and several wizards of the Eight, had come a calling. Fleeing before their superior forces, he was forced to return to his home, where he was laid siege too. Finally, he and his few men escaped, but not before leaving behind much of the looted treasure. It is here that Tenser found an interesting item. When detecting for magic, he noted one ring seemed to glimmer slightly, and lifting it carefully he noted the symbol of the Furyondy kings. He also noticed the missing gemstone, and immediately broke off helping those gathered sack Robilar's keep. Returning to his own fortress Tenser began to investigate the ring and discovered much of the previous background. His heart was heavy, for he had given his aid to this plan, but he still did not feel comfortable with it. Locking the ring deep within his fortress's vaults, Tenser tried to forget, and did so for several years, before his untimely death at the end of the Greyhawk Wars.

Now it is a little over a year since events of the Return of the Eight, and Tenser is now a solid proponent for good. He has broken from the Circle of Eight and does not believe in their goals anymore. He has seen the heart of evil, and knows that he will oppose it now with all the force he can bring to bear. Now it is time to right one of the wrongs he was involved in, for there is nothing worse than having your body tormented, other than having your soul twisted and broken.

Re: Robilar out of the ashes?

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:33:07 +000
Reply-To: rjkuntz@gci-net.com
From: rjkuntz
Organization: Creations Unlimited
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Robilar out of the ashes?
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

SCOTT CASPER wrote:
>
> Hello again.
>
> I have been following the recent Robilar thread with interest, as
> Rary the Traitor didn’t work for me either. Dek has very well summed
> up the Robilar-as-clone theory, and I agree that this would solve the
> problem of all of Otto and Tenser’s clones being killed in so short a
> time. However, both Otto and Tenser are alive and well in my version
> of Oerth, and can’t understand what all this fuss is about.

That’s a point. Gamers come in many forms and use the products as offered in different ways. What might seem of less concern to us is a concern to TSR for marketing reasons, and thus content must be balanced. As an example, modules are used in at least three general ways. There are others, but consider these from TSR’s eventual concern:

1) As offered. Use is consistent with the published guides.
2) As parts for creative use within the campaign (maps, monsters, spells, N-PCs, etc.). DMs extract what is needed by ignore the rest.
3) As extracts for other campaigns (FR, etc).

Notes.

1. This is mainly one-off stuff or for the literal-minded, general gamers who do not seriously follow the campaign but like the material none-the-less. Collectors as opposed to serious gamers.

2. Mainstay. These are the types (like us) who have ignored the pattern as set forth and have thrust out on our own creative endeavors, as any good DM should. These purchasers usually desire more and better in from published offerings. This is doubly true now that GH has sustained itself after so many years and the creativity of this list is at its peak. This should be TSR’s main market thrust area, types such as us.

3. Overlap community. This is apparent in two ways, one outspoken, the other less obvious but there.

A. The Dragon’s editor, Dave Gross, has stated a desire for GH articles. However, his preference is for those that overlap into other game worlds that now exist, thus making them useable across a greater scale of Dragon’s readership. This does not allow for historical development and, for #2 above, much delineated treatments beyond the norm (spells, items, monsters, etc). This is more non-campaign specific, and I assume that this stated need would be assumed by TSR to work in reverse (folks using GH as a template would raid ideas from FR articles, etc.).

B. TSR’s announcement of published offerings of this as well. TOH and Return of the 8. These are easily one-off adventures which [Text missing]

TSR’s problem at resurrecting a setting(s) that have been so long in hiatus. By looking at the old modules one would not get the idea of how far Greyhawk has come after its initial death. Nor does The Dragon reflect this period of quality and quantity as well. Discussion groups of this sort have amassed great amounts of material which are overlooked from TSR’s point of view for possible expression within published form.

MY concern: This state of affairs—hiatus--> resurrection--> attempting to instill new ideas as garnered over the years from fan commitment to GH—will not properly entice “new blood” which is needed to expand the line, both in content and in form, for less offerings of the interesting sort will be published within this expanding scenario. Until TSR feels good about the GH market, simple offerings will be the staple and great concepts, like the Robilar one and many others, such as the Suel Barbarian Project, etc., will be marginalized. This is my opinion only, of course. Much might change once TSR relearns what the phrase “valued consumer” means.

Remedies: Write, Write, Write letters to Dragon and to Harold Johnson. Keep the pressure on them. And keep on enjoying what we do in between!

Robilar

Clerics in their own temples

Subject: [GREYTALK] Clerics in their own temples
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:15:52 -0600
From: "Winsor, Marc [IBM]"
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

We were playing the other night and part of the adventure we were battling some clerics in their temple, trying to shut it down. We have some special rules for clerics in their own temples and I was wondering if any of you do something similar.

These effects take place when any type of battle takes place within the grounds consecrated to the Deity.

*** Minor Shrine - defined to be any building/site dedicated to a deity with at least 10 worshippers.
- Clerics:
Bless Spell

*** Shrine - defined to be any building/site dedicated to a deity and presided over by a cleric of level 1-3 or 50 worshippers.
- Clerics:
+1 save on all saving throws
Bless + Chant
- Worshippers:
Bless Spell
- Foes:
Curse (reversed Bless) Spell

*** Minor Temple - defined to be any building/site dedicated to a deity and presided over by a cleric of level 3-7, or with at least 10(1 or more lvl 2+) clerics, or 500
worshippers.
- Clerics:
+ 2 to all saving throws
+3/+3 To Hit/Damage
Not affected by Fear of any sort
- Worshippers:
+1 To all Saves
Bless+Chant
- Foes:
-1 to all Saves
-2/-2 To Hit/Damage

*** Temple - Defined to be any building/site dedicated to a deity and presided over by a cleric of level 8-12, or at least 15(1 or more lvl 5+) clerics, or 1000 worshippers.
- Clerics:
+ 3 to all Saves
+4/+4 To Hit/Damage
Not affected by Fear of any sort
Spells work at maximum effectiveness.
- Worshippers
+ 2 to all saving throws
+3/+3 To Hit/Damage
Not affected by Fear of any sort
- Foes:
-2 on all Saves
-3/-3 To Hit/Damage
Spells 25% chance to fail
Must save vs Fear each turn or flee from Divine Wrath

Additional:
For every cleric killed there is a cumulative chance a minion of the Deity will appear to take vengeance.

- The way we figure the percentage is to divide 100 by the number of clerics,
ex. 10 clerics 100 / 10 = 10%. 10% for the first killed, 20% for the next,
etc..
If all clerics are killed, a minion will definitely appear.
- If the temple is destroyed and desecrated, a permanent Divine Curse
of -1/-1 To Hit/Damage affects all involved.

***Major Temple - Defined to be any building/site dedicated to a deity and presided over by a cleric of level 12+, or at least 25(2 or more 8+) clerics, or 5000+ worshippers.
- Clerics:
Automatically make all Saves
Always hit( as long as attack is feasible), +6 Damage
Not affected by Fear of any sort
Spells work at double maximum effectiveness(range, duration, damage, 1/2 casting time, etc)
- Worshippers
Aid spell
+ 3 to all saving throws
+4/+4 To Hit/Damage
Not affected by Fear of any sort
- Foes:
-5 on all Saves
-3/-3 To Hit/Damage
Spells 50% chance to fail
Spells work at minimum effectiveness
Must save vs spells every other round of take 1-4 pts of damage.

Additional:
Same chance for minion to appear at the death of a cleric(see Temple) if 50% of clerics are killed, Deity's avatar will appear. If temple is destroyed and desecrated, some type of Divine Curse appropriate to the Deity affects all people involved.

Marc Winsor

Literary Works of GH, round 1

Subject: [GREYTALK] Literary Works of GH, round 1
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:20:43 -0400
From: "VEST, ROBERT"
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Here's something else I've been working on: a list of (mostly non-magical) books & other literary works found in GH products. I haven't combed thru all my GH stuff, yet, but let me know if I miss anything.

For simplicity, "anonymous" may also mean "unknown", or "author not mentioned in source."

BOOKS

Acererak's Libram
Acererak [DR#225.53]
The Art of Coarse Angling
anonymous [UK2.22]
Astrology, Divinity, and Mankind
Yestro Bilnigd [GWoG.4]
The Beasts of Humanity
anonymous [WGA4.21-22]
The Book of Hours (c300 CY)
anonymous priest of Delleb [DR#253.42-43]
The Book of Stone
anonymous [WGA4.22]
Cartography in the Flanaess
anonymous [WGA2.12]
Catalogue of the Land Flanaess, Being the Eastern Portion of the Continent
Oerik, of Oerth (7 volumes)
The Savant-Sage [GWoG.2]
Cenozoic Glacial Geology
anonymous [UK2.22]
The Chronicle of Secret Times
Uhas of Neheli [WGA4.3, 22]
Colloquim Sueloise (80 CY)
Agnel Grammatol [DR#253.46]
Corabilis Pastorem (610 OR)
Gregorious the Green [DR#253.46-47]
The Courwood Travelers (459 CY)
Geohegan Chausard [DR#253.43]
Crosse Ways of Ulek (155 CY)
Andreas Wythe [DR#253.45]
Curative Music
Otto [WGA4.21]
The Dance of Nerull (c230 CY]
anonymous [DR#253.43]
The Demonomicon
Iggwilv [S4.30]
Doctrinal Commentary (c410 CY)
Dantus Allegrini [DR#253.41]
The Dragon-Scale Tome
Timonas of Jalpa [WGA4.22]
Exile From Aerdy
Sonderrako of Rauxes [tAB.11]
The Fables of Dimbles and Dinges (349 CY)
Ibn Al-Muqaffa of Ekbir [DR#253.43]
Flann-aerich'nyt
anonymous [WGA4.22]
Glossographies for Catalogue of the Land Flanaess... (7 volumes)
Pluffet Smedger the Elder [GWoG.2]
Glossography for the Guide to the World of Greyhawk (One of 7 glossographies for Catalogue of the Land Flanaess..., 998 CY)
Pluffet Smedger the Elder [GWoG.2]
Gnomicspheris
anonymous [WGA4.22]
Goodmonth (473 CY)
Gironi Boccanegra [DR#253.41-42]
Greyhawk's Contributions to the World of Magic
anonymous [WGA2.12]
Greyhawk's Inventors
anonymous [WGA2.13]
A Guide to the World of Greyhawk, Volume 3 of Catalogue of the Land Flanaess... (576 CY)
The Savant-Sage [GWoG.2]
Herbal Recipes and Remedies (576 CY)
Sactus Signa [DR#253.45]
Historical Reign of Ulek (c50 CY)
Geohegan Munt [DR#253.42]
A History
anonymous [WGA4.22, 24]
History of the Priests of the Church of St Cuthbert (375 CY)
Dehn Brenner [DR#253.46]
The Illumination of the Rose
anonymous [A3.12]
Imaginary Landscapes
anonymous [WGA4.24]
An Inspiration of the Nature of Oerth
Jawan Sumbar [tAB.9-12]
Introductory Marine Chronography
Mathilde Dessenter [tAB.13]
The Journal of Kevelli Mauk
Kevelli Mauk [SB.2-3, 26]
Laws of the Temple
anonymous [T1-4.102]
Legal Affairs in Veluna 213 to 312 CY
anonymous [T1.11; T1-4.18]
Legal Distinctions in Letters of Marque
Tazaar [U1.24]
Levain's Romance [410 CY]
Gerval Bussey [DR#253.44]
Luminary Wizards of Greyhawk
anonymous [WGA2.13-14]
Mages of Greyhawk
anonymous [WGA2.12]
Magic in the Flanaess
anonymous [WGA2.12]
The Magical Properties of Gemstones
Tenser [U1.7]
The Magical Properties of Herbs and Flowers
Tenser [U1.7]
The Metaphysics of Mathematics
Nystul [U1.7]
A Most Worshipful Guide to Benign Merikka
anonymous [N1.16]
Murlynd's Early Adventures and Subsequent Ventures
Murlynd? [EX2.6]
The Nethertome
Iggwilv [DR#225.51]
The Official History
Uhas of Neheli [WGA4.22]
On Sledge and Horseback to the barbarians of the North (published shortly after 113)
Alisedran [FtAA.67]
Ordained Makedom (366 CY)
Rottcher Baggett [DR#253.46]
The Peasant's Wedding (c325 CY)
anonymous [DR#253.44]
The Plundering and Dispotion of the Silver Metal Cairn
Vasco Plugge [GoF.67]
The Poems of Thalac Jiwo
Thalac Jiwo [WGA4.24]
Power Politics
Abel Mackie [U2.19]
Principles of Navigation
Da Korma [U1.24]
The Prison (unique?)
anonymous [UK3.25]
Reflections of Our Mother (538 CY)
Rolutir [DR#253.42]
A Rigorous and Complete Treatise on the Theoretical Applications of De-Salinated waters in the Production of Potions
anonymous [WGA4.20]
Secrets of Ye Skye Revealed
Selvor the Elder [GWoG.4]
Siman and Elimar (c240 CY)
anonymous [DR#253.47]
The Skkelf Ala Saga (c50 CY)
anonymous {DR#253.47]
Tome of the Black Heart
anonymous [WG5.25-26]
Tome of the Scarlet Sign
? [SB.26; SC.2]
The Travels of Marek Polstar (398 CY)
Marek Polstar [DR#253.44]
Treatise on the Practices of the Hidden Ones
Bishop Imphalas of Furyondy [WGA4.24]
The True Relation of the Nyr Dyv and the Lands Surrounding
Norfil van Defflitter [WGA4.24-25]
Two Years' Record of the Hidden Sea
anonymous [tAB.11]
Understanding the Handiwork of Celestian
Agath of Thrunch [tAB.9]
Unholy Text of Asmodeus
anonymous [CoG card #18]
Vecna's Ineffable Variorum
Vecna [DR#225.49]
Wings for Mankind
anonymous [WGA2.12-13]
Woebluf
anonymous [UK2.22]
Wonderful Flying Inventions
anonymous [WGA2.12]
The Wye Canon (507 CY)
Jenkin Wye [DR#253.44-45]

SONGS

The Fall of the Scarlet Brotherhood
Diambeth [WG8.46]

AUTHORS OF UNNAMED WORKS

Ajax Wheelwright (Brego Hammerfist)
Several books of verse [WG8.37]
Anonymous, translation by Lysenko
Work on the development of intelligent life on Oerth [WG8.10]
Endoble Mistikmore
Books on gnome culture [WG12.57]
Henriki Ardand
Journal of his trip to the Rainbow Vale [GA.100]
Jaran Krimeeah
Book on the creation of chlorine gas [WG12]
Pontus Hardiggin
His memoirs [GA.101]
Tysiln San
Book of poetry [WG12.58]
Book of love poems about Jaran Krimeeah [WG12.57]

More to come eventually.

-Rob Bastard
http://www.bastard.athome.to
Sign the guestbook, spunk puppets!

Greyhawk Ruins (long)

Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:41:46 -0500
From: Joseph Bloch Josephus@CYBERNEX.NET
Subject: Greyhawk Ruins (long)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Here is the text of a letter I received from Blake Mobley and Timothy Brown (designers of the Greyhawk Ruins module) dated September 1990. I thought everyone on the list might find it interesting it adds a few details and touches on some of the topics we've been discussing here lately. It is an answer to a series of questions concerning the module I had asked (I don't think it's necessary to reprint my letter,
you can figure out what the questions were from their answers). Enjoy!

Greyhawk Ruins was designed at the request of Jim Ward who was one of the original players in Gary's "original" Greyhawk Castle module. Thus, it has been designed to match this original concept as close as
was feasible. The module "Castle Greyhawk" was a satire done on Gary's original castle and is not intended to be taken seriously (unlike the Ruins). In fact, many of us at TSR consider it to be more of a comic module (one to be read for laughs, but not to play in). Some of the elements you mention that we left out, were intentionally left out as they had no place in the original dungeon, but were added by other people or mentioned in conjunction with Greyhawk Castle just because it was a well known castle that had not been detailed. As you probably know, the original Castle Greyhawk was reported to have over 200 levels in it. It was also constantly changing due to cave-ins and magical factors. Therefore, some of the items you mention have changed location, are not now discernable, or have been sealed off in a section of the dungeon which we did not detail.
The golden man (who was originally a wandering monster illusion in Gary's campaign) was not placed specifically in the dungeon, we decided that the illusion had ceased to exist at this point. If you wish to keep it, have the diamond golem in Z402 control it. Do remember, that we are detailing the dungeon several hundred years after most of these details you are speaking of originally existed. If I remember correctly, the Great Enigma was a giant 3D head which would turn those who messed with it into warts upon its face. I do know that in Gary's castle, it was on an extremely deep level, and we decided not to include it. However, if you wish to use it, I would place it in room P715 and incorporate it into the gargoyle chair there. Of course the real enigma or puzzle about Greyhawk Ruins is that the obelisk at P813 is not the great secret, but rather the Stone in P715. Finally, the great Central Shaft has now been disrupted. It was once a great shaft which connected all of the open spiral stairways running from P300 to P800 together. However, this shaft is now fragmented and will not be apparent to anyone.
In Isle of the Ape, Tenser speaks of descending the shaft and finding natural caverns, then entering a tunnel which led to the isle. Once P800 was nothing but caverns, however, now it has been partially worked into smooth areas. In any event, the tunnel to the Isle of the Ape was once the hallway at P826. because that module is no longer in stock at TSR, we couldn’t refer to it directly. During play in the ruins, we decided that the tunnel was closed ad thus acted like a time tunnel. We had similar restrictions concerning Beyond the Magic Mirror and Dungeonland. However, we kept these portals open. The entrance to Beyond the Magic Mirror is at Z632. The entrance to Dungeonland is at P833. Of course the entrance to Zagig’s demi-plane (as well as the other ring of five members) is also on this level at P834. Finally, entrance to a realm of horror was once on this level (we have now made it Ravenloft), but it is at P824. Your reference to the Gord the Rogue books has me puzzled. I do not recall any mention of Greyhawk Castle other than the castle in Greyhawk City. However, I will take your word for it and must admit that we overlooked this tie-in.
You are correct about Z405 [that it was the place where the 9 demigods were captured]. Furthermore, note the elements of P900 for more information about the capturing process. As far as the rest of the nine trapped gods goes, that information has been strictly guarded so that we may use it in the future as need arises. Graz’zt has since escaped, and thus we didn’t put him in the castle. However, the relief face he was kept in was originally at P207 as a cruel joke and form of torture by Zagig (trapping a demon in a clown’s face is rather severe). The statue of Boccob at P209 was assigned to guard him. His evilness still influences much of the magic of this level (as you will note by reading it). However, we did not refer to Graz’zt himself due to TSR’s current policy on Demons.

Well, that’s it! Some interesting tidbits, I thought.

Joe Bloch

Re: Circle of Darkness

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Circle of Darkness
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:09:16 -0800
From: Sky Kruse
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

>What if Rary was about to be discovered, so he "switches" to evil and
>starts working that side of the equation?

I never went as far as creating a "Circle of Darkness" in my (currently on-hold) Greyhawk campaign, but IMC the Rary the Traitor scenario was a ruse, staged by the Circle in order to appear weak and fractious near the end of the Wars. All the other major power blocs had been battered by the Wars, but the Circle was relatively untouched, at the literal center of the map, and far more "open to public scrutiny" than they had been previously. Instead of being the clandestine workers-behind-the-scenes, they were suddenly prominent and in the proverbial gunsights of everyone else who sought different ends from their own.

So, Tenser and Otiluke "played dead" and went underground, becoming free to operate (in magical disguise, of course) elsewhere, and Rary openly "split", eliciting Robilar's help in this conspiracy, while secretly still working with the Circle and just at a (barely-removed) distance. From the outside, the heavy hitters of the Circle were gone or divided against each other... and most of their foes bought it, since most of those who would fear and seek to destroy the Circle had been a part of similar power grabs in their own rise to glory.

>What if the whole Tenser and Otiluke situation was one where they were
>having their qualms about the situation. Or maybe just Tenser did and
>Otiluke got caught in the crossfire. Maybe when he is brought back by
>the characters in Rot8, he realizes that he can't "out" the Circle, so
>he makes an uneasy truce and goes off to promote lawful good causes.

Well, this is one reason I probably won't run Rot8... =)

>Also, in terms of divinations, it seems that many of the wizards or
>clerics who could do them might be "in the pockets" of the Circle.

Entirely possible... IMC, the Scarlet Brotherhood was widely feared and there was a lot of secrecy kept even where it didn't necessarily seem appropriate, because one could never be sure who the spies were. This played nicely into the hands of the Circle... but even some of the Circle apprentices weren't let in on the overall scheme.

>So who would smoking man be?

Zagyg =) he's obviously smoking something...

Circle of Darkness (long)

Subject: [GREYTALK] Circle of Darkness (long)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:45:33 -0600
From: John C Wright
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Lisa Stevens wrote:

>IMC, the Circle of Darkness will actually be the balancing half of the
>Circle of Eight. I got to thinking, if you truly believe in neutrality,
>nobody is going to trust you and it will be hard for you to get things
>done.
-snip-
>So when I say that the Circle of Darkness is the balancing half of the
>Circle of Eight, I mean that the eight wizards who make up the Co8 are
>the same wizards who make up the CoD, only in different guises and under
>different names.

I can see this as being somewhat plausible, but in the long-run...when the wizards know that adventurers can and often do screw things up and figure things out, then the entire Co8 and CoD ploys would be totally useless as no one would trust the wizards in any of their guises. If the Co8 is truly behind the CoD (which is very possible) then they would instead prefer to work through intermediaries I would think to limit the possibility of their being revealed as working in conjunction with the forces of evil.

Scott Casper wrote:
>Wouldn't a mid-level spellcaster have been able to cast Locate Object, wh=
>ile
>standing next to the body in question, and "look" for the remains of Cymr=
>ia? =
>
>If the body was a fake, the spell wouldn't register it.

Locate object on the body? The way I understand the spell it doesn't work on living beings, and on objects (which a body is of course) it requires complete familiarity to function properly. So if the wizard is looking at the body...why would they need to locate it...as the spell would reveal the body is directly in front of them still. I would like to hear more on this from others though, as my interpetation is of course only my own. High-level divinations could very well reveal that it is not her body...or could show that it is. As I stated in the notes, Cymria may or may not be dead...it depends of course on how the DM wishes to run it. In most campaigns where the players do not know her, then it would of course be no loss, except to Tenser. In my campaign though, Cymria is a common friend to many in the group and her loss is felt by them and will be investigated thoroughly.

Chris Anderson wrote in response to Lisa Stevens:
>I see where you're going with this, but it strikes me that it's impractical.
>In a world of divinatory magic, et al, I don't think that you could keep a
>secret like that for very long.
>
>Besides, there's nothing wrong with having non-Co8 high-level groups that
>have differing motivations.
>
>IMC, I have the Scarlet Circle (no, it's not related to the Brotherhood),
>the Knights of the Golden Dawn, the Iron Fist, and some other
>(non-flashy-named) groups which coexist with the Co8. All have differing
>goals and purposes.

Secrets can be kept amazing lengths of time depending on how involved the group is in the world at large. The Scarlet Brotherhood for example has been almost completely unknown for centuries, and were only recently 'discovered' as being involved in the world. The CoD could have kept their initial existence secret easily, and only through the mistakes with the Doomgrinder do they stand a chance of being revealed to the world. Of course as they become more enmeshed in the world, then their group will become more noticed of course. As for their secrecy, the Co8 is commonly heard of, but few people actually know who all make up the Co8, at least according to the 'canon' information in the Greyhawk supplements. Secrets are wizards best friends, and for more ideas on secret societies check out the recent Dragon Magazine article on them.

Kent Matthewson wrote:
<<
I find it hard to imagine a situation wherein the Circle would justifiably
work on the side of evil (excluding evil in the name of preventing a greater
evil for example). If I were to define the Circle of Eight's objective, it
would be to restore the balance that has shifted towards evil, which is
still somewhat different from working for "good".
>>

The Co8 are likely some of the most misunderstood groups about. Due to their being filled by some of the biggest wizard names about, everyone assumes they are all good and nice, but a key thing is to note how Tenser looks at them (especially after the Rot8 adventure). In old novels, and sources the Co8 worked for means less than noble, and in the Gord novels if I am not mistaken, it is revealed that Mordenkainen and the Co8 are part of the reason that the Prince of Furyondy was removed. Good grew too powerful in their minds with the union of Veluna and Furyondy, so Mordenkainen helped to arrange that it would not happen. (This of course is being covered in the adventure I am currently working up, which pits the adventurerers as either allies of Tenser, or the Co8 and how they deal with the methods of each group).

Keldreth wrote:
>While I could not imagine the Co8 trying to destablize the future of this, if
>they tried, there are certain mages and others who would have big problems
>with this.

The Co8 will likely involve and work against anything which they do not see as being in the best 'balance' for Oerth. A circle of arch-magi would have a tough time dealing with all of the magical avenues available to a determined high-level opponent. Yes, I have found that to be true.

Chris Anderson wrote:
>We're talking about contacting other planes and powers, clerical divinatory
>magic, magic-user spells, speaking with dead, etc. Have you tried to do
>this in a real game? It's damn hard without pulling out the "deus ex
>machina" excuse as to why their attempts fail.

I have tried to use many of the divinations in various games. And they are not all knowing by far. If used properly, the spells can be useful, but many times they can give little to any information, especially if the target is amply shielded from divinatory magics. (non-detection, mind-shielding, mind blank, etc.) Add in a limited wish or two, for either prevention of scrying, or for those who attempt divinations against the target to say suffer the effects of a feeblemind, and the wizard is quite amply protected.

Few deities offer high-level divinations, and those which do are most likely of a neutral bent (Rao and Delleb being exceptions of course). So before these priesthoods bend their power to using their greatest divinations, either they must be involved in the current problems, or others must come to them with sufficient reason to involve them. Even then, the answers are not guaranteed. As for Speak with Dead, if the dead person knows nothing, or if their soul has been stolen or imprisoned, there is little information they can give. For wizards, divinations often run along with dangerous side-effects. Contact other Plane gives the wizard a significant chance for insanity, and few wizards would risk this chance unless they were directly involved.

Eric VdW wrote in response to Kent Matthewson:
>I see your point, but then what were the Co8 doing before the Greyhawk
>Wars? You're right, I can't see Drawmij (well, maybe Drawmij...he's
>got a very cold description) attacking a group of paladins in order to
>"preserve the balance", but remember that the Co8 work behind the
>scenes to make sure these things happen.
>
>But what are their goals following this middle path? In other words,
>what do we do with these guys?

Check out Warnes Starcoats write-up. If anyone is going to kill some paladins to further the balance...this is the man to do it. He has already gotten into a huge argument with King Lynwerd and he is definitely a cold fish who would not mind sacrificing a few 'noble' souls to see his beliefs carried out. As for what do we do with them? We use the Co8 as a group who believes that due to their innate superiority (they are all powerful wizards, and vastly more intelligent than the common man or ruler...or so they believe), that it is up to them to insure that the world runs smoothly. And if some idiot cambion or some fool paladin tries to throw a monkey-wrench in the works, they turn a bit of that magical might on them and clean out the gears.

Miles wrote:
>The Co8 have seen what happens when people get too powerful. ie - invoked
>devestation and rain of colourless fire, and so have decided that the best
>way to stop this ever happening again is to stop people getting too
>powerful - good or evil.
>
>This could mean that when the PC's are lower or mid level, the Co8 could be
>of great help to them, but when they start getting high level and their
>adventures start having world shattering consequences, the Co8 might start
>sending other adventurers out to get them.

Exactly, the Co8 uses adventurers until they become too problematic, then use newer adventurers to clean out the old.

Well this string went from original questions about the CoD on into deep philosophical questions about the goals and motives of the Co8, but I hope that the points I have tried to cover and the questions I have tried to answer were clear.

John Wright