Healing power to evil priests

 

Re: 3ed bastardation of gods....

Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:33:23 -0800
From: Eric Van  
Subject: Re: 3ed bastardation of gods....

Ummm...where's Incabulos?

I know Nerull and Hextor usually get the limelight, but that's why I liked Incabulos so much.

Ah well.

Eric VdW

--- sander wrote: 
> Well, just you all knew - it is from the same site the holds the "vote".
> There is a tid-bit called 3ed gods. The table looks like this:
>
> God's name Portfolio Align. Domains
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> Heironeous Valor LG Good, Law, War
> Moradin Dwarves LG Earth, Good, Law, Protection
> Yondalla Halflings LG Good, Law, Protection
> Ehlonna Woodlands NG Animal, Good, Plant, Sun
> Carl* Gnomes NG Good, Protection, Trickery
> Pelor Sun NG Good, Healing, Strength, Sun
> Corellon* Elves CG Chaos, Good, Protection, War
> Kord Strength CG Chaos, Good, Strength, Luck
> Wee Jas Death & Magic LN Death, Law, Magic
> St Cuthbert Retribution LN Law, Strength, Protection, Destruction
> Boccob Magic N Knowledge, Magic, Trickery
> Fharlanghn Roads N Luck, Protection, Travel
> Obad-Hai Nature N Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Water
> Olidammara Thieves CN Chaos, Luck, Trickery
> Hextor Tyranny LE Destruction, Evil, Law, War
> Nerull Death NE Death, Evil, Trickery
> Vecna Secrets NE Evil, Knowledge, Magic
> Erythnul Slaughter CE Chaos, Evil, Trickery, War
> Gruumsh Orcs CE Chaos, Evil, War
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> * Carl's and Correllon's names shortened by me. They still have their full
> names.
>
> My only comment - if the table is true - is "You screwed it up, bastards!".
>
> There are way too many gods with trickery in the domain. Also:
>
> * Olidammara's portfolio is thieves? Everybody hit that designer who
> read way too much conan instead of paying attention to Greyhawk. Also,
> suddenly music and wines and spirits are not something in his domain? Bad.
>
> * Boccob has now a domain of trickery? Oh no, all boccobs priest -
> supposed to be grave and considerate people - seem to have left and become
> Zagig's followers...
>
> * Who is the real god of magic? It seems as if all three - Boccob, Wee Jas
> and Vecna are contesting for the position...
>
> * Ehlonna has lost half-elves (of all things!) and gained sun...
>
> * Obad-Hai now has way in-appropriate elemental spheres...
>
> * Erythnul is apparently majorly screwed up if his spheres are really as
> seen above
>
> * There is a domain of GOOD!!!! And similarily the others, like Evil,
> chaos and law, but apparently *NOT* Neutrality!
>
> * Why the hell had they to bring in Vecna?
>
> Sander
>
> There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future -
> these are all just illusions.

Gods, Oeridian and otherwise

Page 1

 

Page 2

Re: Ron Gaw's paladins and their powers

Date sent: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:21:38 -0400
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Ronald Melvin Gaw
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Ron Gaw's paladins and their powers
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, SCOTT CASPER wrote:

:
:Lastly, I think we should hear a little more from Ronald Gaw about
:his theory of paladins. If paladins are treated as agents of mankind
:instead of agents of the gods, then who grants them their clerical
:spells at higher levels?
:
:Scott “Volstagg” Casper
:Almost never rolls stats high enough to play paladins
:

Well, IMC power of the deities is a direct result of their worshipper's support and belief (helps explain why the evil deities, with few worshippers, are still powerful, since even the 'good' people believe in them). Along similar lines, a Paladin's powers come from his/her belief in LAWFUL GOOD. The linking factor between these (and magic, IMC) is that the powers and benefits one receives is an individual's way of drawing from some mystical essence that attempts to make belief's into reality (well, real fantasy ;). I have named this essence 'Living Magic', you can name it what you will. It requires specialized ways of communicating the beliefs (i.e., magic-users do it one way, clerics another), but Paladins reach this source mostly out of their pure, non-political belief, a type of belief which is so strong it breaks the communications barrier between the 'living magic' in a way the other users don't or can't.

I hope my players heed my warning and stop reading any further. The next portion of this text is going to describe a portion of my version of Greyhawk to be revealed after many adventures.


What the various different user types have not realized in Greyhawk eons is how to fully harnass this 'power of belief'. Paladins do it inadvertantly (they are not trying to make it something greater). Most dieties know it grants them their spheres of power, but even they do not know how to harnass it fully (in most cases, their personal origins on the planet Oerth have somewhat skewed their ability, even as dieties, to believe in something without any doubts whatsoever!). Even the greatest of the old dieties, of which Tharizdun is one, who know of the full strength and possibilies (they 'think' they do, as opposed to completely believing they know it's full extents. Otherwise, there would be no chance of it's power becoming greater than it already has achieved), are not capable of nonchalantly calling its power. It requires their true thoughts, desires and personality to accomplish total belief, and this is both difficult and dangerous for them. It is like admitting there is something greater than themselves, and they are loathe to do this.

It turns out that the greatest of the mages and clerics of Oerth's cloudy past knew of this 'power of belief' at one time. Unable to overcome their own inability to believe, they realized that their only true source of harnassing this power was children. Children could be taught (at least at early ages) to completely and unquestionably believe in something. Although it might have taken years of careful culturing and development, those who controlled these children could accomplish feats no spell or arcane device that ever existed could accomplish. The farthest seeing of these 'harnassing mages' learned that a portion of the power derived from such belief could be trapped inside objects, and thus the most powerful artifacts and relics were created. Unfortunately for the harnassing mages, they could not completely control the children, and the children had an uncanny way of letting their thoughts wander, introducing side effects in these devices.

Although this is the explanation I currently have adapted for my version of Greyhawk, I'd like to clarify here that I do not currently, nor do I intend to in the future, explain this to the players. What I do with it is listen carefully to them during adventures, and if I can determine (subjective, I know, but hey...) when they really believe something is going to happen, is happening or has happened, I alter the story accordingly. It does create some havoc in my campaign development, but it also keeps it very creative. If the players ever figured this out and tried to tell me 'I really, really believe in ....', it might be difficult to explain to them that it doesn't work that way. But if they're good role-players, they might be able to use it in small ways (nothing greater than the powers currently Paladins) if they can demonstrate their character's belief by his/her reactions and actions.

If any of the groups, however, every achieve extremely high levels (20th or higher, not likely in my campaign due to the time required to accomplish this), I might open my Ultimate Campaign ideas bag of tricks and have them discover long-lost lore on Mighty Arch-Mages of the past raising an inordinate number of orphaned children!

That’s all for now,

Hiawa Yugha,
Barbarian Paladin from the Plains of the Paynims

Re: Circle of Darkness

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Circle of Darkness
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:09:16 -0800
From: Sky Kruse
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

>What if Rary was about to be discovered, so he "switches" to evil and
>starts working that side of the equation?

I never went as far as creating a "Circle of Darkness" in my (currently on-hold) Greyhawk campaign, but IMC the Rary the Traitor scenario was a ruse, staged by the Circle in order to appear weak and fractious near the end of the Wars. All the other major power blocs had been battered by the Wars, but the Circle was relatively untouched, at the literal center of the map, and far more "open to public scrutiny" than they had been previously. Instead of being the clandestine workers-behind-the-scenes, they were suddenly prominent and in the proverbial gunsights of everyone else who sought different ends from their own.

So, Tenser and Otiluke "played dead" and went underground, becoming free to operate (in magical disguise, of course) elsewhere, and Rary openly "split", eliciting Robilar's help in this conspiracy, while secretly still working with the Circle and just at a (barely-removed) distance. From the outside, the heavy hitters of the Circle were gone or divided against each other... and most of their foes bought it, since most of those who would fear and seek to destroy the Circle had been a part of similar power grabs in their own rise to glory.

>What if the whole Tenser and Otiluke situation was one where they were
>having their qualms about the situation. Or maybe just Tenser did and
>Otiluke got caught in the crossfire. Maybe when he is brought back by
>the characters in Rot8, he realizes that he can't "out" the Circle, so
>he makes an uneasy truce and goes off to promote lawful good causes.

Well, this is one reason I probably won't run Rot8... =)

>Also, in terms of divinations, it seems that many of the wizards or
>clerics who could do them might be "in the pockets" of the Circle.

Entirely possible... IMC, the Scarlet Brotherhood was widely feared and there was a lot of secrecy kept even where it didn't necessarily seem appropriate, because one could never be sure who the spies were. This played nicely into the hands of the Circle... but even some of the Circle apprentices weren't let in on the overall scheme.

>So who would smoking man be?

Zagyg =) he's obviously smoking something...

Re: Chaotic governments

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Chaotic governments
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:37:39 PST
From: Scott Casper
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Haile again,

Noel "Has a Crush on Queen Yolande" Graham wrote:
>Try "Olvenrealm" of Celene. I guess "Coronal" (in the stead of
>"Queen") is never going to catch on, huh?

Olvenrealm works. And no, Coronal is not catching on...

>Do keep in mind that the CG ascribed to the olvenrealm is the majority (I
>won't say predominant) alignment of its populace, not necessarily how its
>gvt. is run. But that's a caveat.

I can see three interpretations for the Geographic Alignment map in the '83 boxed set. 1) The Alignment corresponds to the ruler only. 2) The Alignment corresponds to the majority of the populace. 3) The Alignment belongs to the land itself. No ruler or government not of that Alignment will be successful in that region. The third one is a radical interpretation I had suggested once hypothetically, but don't prefer. Currently, I'm leaning towards the first, but I never seem satisfied on this point.

>The fact remains they [the drow] do have a goverment with certain rules
>(laws, if you want) which must be followed else suffer consequence.
>Only, their's is predicated more on getting caught than the doing.

Perhaps the distinction can be made that the drow have no laws, but only punishments?

>Consistency of merit is likely more important than slavishness to
>law. Ok, which is to say, the olvenfolk realize there is no law which
>adequately addresses every situation and each being. There is a basic
>code of civil (*not* as in municipal) behavior, with punishments meeted
>out according to the "crime". One of the best ways to describe this is
>"situational ethics", but most folks seem to want to read those words
>with a negative connotation (usually because it was used against them).

Which is probably the best description of Chaotic Good I've seen yet. Thanks.

>On the whole, those in leadership achieve those positions because
>they showed merit for it -- and gain the respect of "follower", who are
>in turn more willing to follow the individual's lead.... Yolande and her
>kin have held the Coronal role because they proved most worthy to direct
>the interests of the olvenfolk with other realms, showed the capacity to
>identify with the needs and viewpoints of her peoples, etc.. [snipped]

This intrigues me, because if elves truly chose their leaders like that, then there is really no reason for the next ruler, or even the last ruler, to have been of any relation to Yolande whatsoever. Losing the idea of a hereditary monarchy would make the elven culture stand out more. But since Celene isn't a republic, a new monarch wouldn't be elected by the people, but would have to claim the throne with a show of power to fend off rivals. Elves probably don't lose their monarchs of old age very often, but when they do, perhaps their chaotic natures lead to bloody civil wars.

>To read this, one might be inclined to conceive this "nation" one
>quite easily on the verge of collapse or disbandment from internal foment
>and disagreement. That's certainly a potential, but the practice ends up
>being opposite. What happens is because folks have the capacity to thumb
>their noses at a poor decision or ostracize an inept leader, it becomes
>incumbent for those parties to be worthy of their role. In turn, because
>they display (however) that worthiness, the inhabitants are more willing
>to help their fellows in the way suggested.

I don't know...just because someone is Good doesn't mean that they have the Wisdom to make good decisions. Besides, I'd rather see an elven bloodbath once every few centuries...

Scott "Volstagg" Casper

Celene would make such a nice concentration camp when the Yak-Men take over...

Re: Chaotic governments

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Chaotic governments
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:50:50 -0500
From: The Watcher
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Haile and Fair Greetings All,

Oops. Sorry; I've been clearing out alot of back mail and missed this thread altogether until Keldreth edited my name to the page top.

Scott "Master Yakker" Volstagg writes:
>Now, where does that leave the Chaotic Good "Queendom" (?) of Celene?

Try "Olvenrealm" of Celene. I guess "Coronal" (in the stead of "Queen") is never going to catch on, huh?

>Celene's neutrality during the Greyhawk Wars may be inconsistent with
>what her neighbors wanted, but other than that, Celene does not seem to
>be very
>Chaotic at all. Any suggestions on how to make Celene seem more
>Chaotic? Dare
>I ask you, Watcher?

::Stifled chuckle:: Well gosh, I hardly ever think about Celene. All foolery aside, mostly it's a general problem with perception. I just can't quite figure why folks want to see CG as CHAOTIC(g). The kind of chaos where you sentence a prisoner to death and release him on his merry way is a peculiar (insane) form of CN.

I certainly can't speak for anyone else's view, but I've yet to find a problem with Celene acting out of "alignment" -- particularly since a nation doesn't have one. Do keep in mind that the CG ascribed to the olvenrealm is the majority (I won't say predominant) alignment of its populace, not necessarily how its gvt. is run. But that's a caveat.

Keldreth replies:
>Uh huh, and the CE drow...I have seen ugly flamewars over the vault of the drow.

The fact remains they do have a goverment with certain rules (laws, if you want) which must be followed else suffer consequence. Only, their's is predicated more on getting caught than the doing.

>I think of Lawful vs. Chaotic governments in part (well at least LG vs
>CG) as
>"the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" ordered society,
>feudalism, yada yada. vs. a chaotic govt. that is more of a
>confederation or a real libertarian attitude towards society. [C]all me
>crazy.

Your crazy. But you do have the most basic elements in mind. In the case of Celene, the "leadership" doesn't function to mandate how all elves will floss their (lack of canine) teeth. I don't want to hammer down the specifics of political life in the Olvenrealm here (too many words that'd be better read in the context of next year's Pocket Guide to Celene), but let me see what I can do with a few (me -- a
few -- right) words.

Consistency of merit is likely more important than slavishness to law. Ok, which is to say, the olvenfolk realize there is no law which adequately addresses every situation and each being. There is a basic code of civil (*not* as in municipal) behavior, with punishments meeted out according to the "crime". One of the best ways to describe this is "situational ethics", but most folks seem to want to read those words with a negative connotation (usually because it was used against them).

On the whole, those in leadership achieve those positions because they showed merit for it -- and gain the respect of "follower", who are in turn more willing to follow the individual's lead.... Yolande and her kin have held the Coronal role because they proved most worthy to direct the interests of the olvenfolk with other realms, showed the capacity to identify with the needs and viewpoints of her peoples, etc.. Her words of wisdom (whichever ones those are) are respected (on the whole), so her olvenfolk believe her when she indicates some course is the best, and so
on.

I suppose the best way of explaining it here, is to say that generally the "office" someone holds is not particualarly self-empowered. One does not secure or be assigned the post of coronal, chief constable (truth seeker, formost), or military commander; one becomes or is these things and is so recognized with resources and endorsement and so on. Yes, this is by far a simplistic representation of how it works in Celene, but I'm attempting to impart the basic concept at work. As humans, the "office" exists unto itself where for elves an empty post is nothing but for who fills it.

To read this, one might be inclined to conceive this "nation" one quite easily on the verge of collapse or disbandment from internal foment and disagreement. That's certainly a potential, but the practice ends up being opposite. What happens is because folks have the capacity to thumb their noses at a poor decision or ostracize an inept leader, it becomes incumbent for those parties to be worthy of their role. In turn, because they display (however) that worthiness, the inhabitants are more willing to help their fellows in the way suggested.

Each being (I could get lost saying "elf", but there are other races) brings from within itself the desire to support the homeland and society by what means at their disposal. The poet writes inspiring and lifting phrase, the craftman does his best, the weaponsmith forgest weapon for defense, the learned teach.... All contribute in the way they do and each with a mind for betterment, because without them there is no Celene. It exists not unto itself, but of its members.

Now, admittedly, this seems idyllic in explanation -- and just so. In my estimation, true olven society bears it's human counterpart as a pale shadow. In turn, they have their dissenters: the sylvan who only moderately accept the will of Enstad (but prefer the respect from there over humanfolk), the grugach (amid their number) who accept no rule but their own (but would yet see aid to fellow elves over others), folks who just disagree fundamentally with current practice, and criminal elements (you don't *really* think all the olvenfolk are goodly types, do you?).

Each are dealt according to their nature, not by their "crime". In the US, it's a crime to disagree with the government if that disagreement is one of legal demand. For the olvenfolk, there are codes of behavior based upon respect for fellows and personal honor, but few absolute laws as such. Clan/family affiliation is still important, for instance, to be dishonored in addition to oneself. Still, a dissenter
must (rationally) be given the opportunity to see the "error" of their way before condemnation. It's as possible the argument sways the "official" (not always so formal) gone to talk. Theoretically, this could change the way Celene deals with similar issues, not as a matter of law, but from a new wealth of experience. The clan could be wrong (ie., just because the majority believes/agrees doesn't make them correct in so doing).

Similarly, it no crime to (say) walk about naked, as it's hard to offend those who have the option of not looking, are bipedal themselves (sympathetic form issue), etc.. They may think you a fool, esp. if it's snowing around you, but their response is one of not dealing with you over "punishing" you for offending "them". If they don't like you, they don't have to sell to you, buy from you, etc.. But caution, the
olvenfolk are mostly beyond petty displays one might expect from humans under similar condition. As is well pointed out, they have both the years to learn that falicy and the wealth of their elders who've attained such wisdom (when they pay attention).

In final, "chaotic" in this case should be seen as "no interest in law for its own sake" over some non-ownership socialism. The "good" half of that alignment defines itself (gosh, I hope). Folks still buy and own, but of a mind for what they do (let's not cut down the 300-year oak to build a house *just* there). You're there because you want to be. It's easy enough to leave.

Look beyond the surface of what is seen externally. A realm, theoretically on the perpetual verge of collapse, which can be seen to react inconsistently to similar events, and chooses when it cares about issue -- that doesn't seem chaotic enough to y'all?

Soft Winter and Sweet Flowers,
Watcher

Elves & Birthright ideas - Dreadwood

Subject: [GREYTALK] Elves & Birthright ideas - Dreadwood
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:36:55 +1000
From: Cos & Melissa Marendy
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Greetings fellow list members

Recently I was conducting a email chat about the Elves of Dreadwood with a learned Greyhawker. He asked but how I used Birtright in my alternative Oerth. I find Birthright rules can be used to explain the powers/ablities of a race (Elvish)under threat. With some modification, game balance can be kept. Game balance is the key to adaption of the Birthright rules for greyhawk - you must have a reason for why it is not wide spread as in the birtheight campaign setting. Anyway I have enjoyed so many great ideas over the years from this list, I though maybe it was time to contribute my ideas from my campaign. I know these ideas certainly will not be agreeble with
all the list members - but thats what makes this open list great - constructive and co-operative input. Anyway here is my rationale for using Birthright ideas in Greyhawk, also bear in mind that my game is centred in the Dreadwood area of southern Keoland, hence the reference to the specific site in my rationale.

My (rough) Rationale

My adaption is based on nature itself being a force like a Diety except unaware of its effect on the multiverse. Nature is divided among the elements and motive forces such as good, evil, chaos and law. Each motive force and nature element has special effects on the environment. This explains the multiverse setup as per 'Manual of the Planes', and how the prime material planes represent a mix of all - hence the terms PRIME & MATERIAL. Since all the elements are present on the prime planes, the
locals call this nature. Truely observant or ancient races become aware of the mix called nature and tap into 'the current'. Those who do tend to tap the 'whole current' with the complete mix of motive powers and the elements which lead to a balanced or neutral belief about what is nature.

Occasionally, these same races are able to isolated the individual mini currents of just earth or air or evil etc... This is more raw source of the multiverse, but unbalanced without the rest to balance it. Great powers are usable but just like science this throws 'nature' into inbalance. The Elves of Dreadwood can tap the balanced 'current'. Some of the Elves have tapped just one element such as good, leading to a inbalance which will take centuries to correct - hence the fading land. These Elves are considered rogues, by their kin despite any good intensions, as it inbalances the 'nature' of the multiverse. Among the Elves, only those of royal or noble blood can harness these powers of the multiverse. Ramdomly, new noble
houses can be birthed into the current whilst others lose their access - hence a balance is maintain. A Elf who has access can transfer all his/her access using cermonies of oerthsap. THe access can also be stolen, resulting in the death of the victim. What ever type of access the individal has is transfered to his/her offspring or recieptant. The Elves claim they are only true holders of this power.

In my campaign I have left this elf only claim open - maybe Dragons have access? Humans also have access, but only by accident of 'nature'. The suel-Baklunish war with twin destructions of a scale unmatched, rocked the 'current' with vast release of earthsap which is found in all living and unliving material. This release normally controlled with the typical death of one creature, leading to the birth of another was not able to be achieved. The current, some of it balanced, most of it not enhanced surviours of the holocaust, it its attempt to maintain balance. Suel and
Baklunish fell upon each other using terriable powers unheard of except in the most terrorifying nightmares of Elven Noblity & Royality. Some Suel humans realised the danger of the sitiuation and fed eastward, and became the Silent Brothers (mentioned in OJs). They sought to contain misuse, and destroy those who sought to upset the balance. The Baklunish too have formed their own very secret order to maintain the balance. Hence in my campaign, current wielding morals are secretive, and avoid actively annoucing their 'birthgift' The Elves of course continue to use it in
moderation except for the rogues who are hunted or exiled. Some of the inbalance remains hence the sea of dust, while some 'creatures?' were so embraced by the 'current' that they are but a shadow of their moral form. THese 'spawn' (as called by the Elves) generally represent the motive power of 'evil'. I have one loose in Dreadwood, hence another reason why the Elves are kept busy.

Regardless what type of current the individual taps, all need the enviroment. The more natural the enviroment, the greater the power of the current can be accessed by the individual. A untouched ancient forest would give more power than a city on a plain with a long history of occupation. (this direct steal from Birthright rules) Ley lines can be 'forged' from such sites to less enhanced sites. eg Elven Lord on the plains south of Dreadwood forges a Leyline from a ancient grove of trees in the heart of Elven terriory. The further away, the harder it is to make the current flow
into useful sources of oerthsap. A individual is also measured by how musch he/she can access. The Queen of Celene's line would be truely powerful compared to a local Elf Lord in Ulek. This measure of the current can improve, by wisely using it or theft of a greater individuals access, using the procedure of saptheft.

Well this is a rough of the why and who. If you like, I'll send next time the powers and how. Please forgive the typos...

regards
Cos.

What to do with evil?

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] What to do with evil?
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:03:19 -0500
From: Dracos
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Scott Casper wrote:

> Dracos wrote:
>
> >1. Has the priest or paladin made a reasonable effort to give these >priests
> over to the proper authorities?
> >2. Have they tried to consult Mayaheine, whether by divination spells or
> >simple prayer for enlightenment?
> >3. Have they asked the party for their ideas on avoiding execution of the
> >prisoners, or finding another means, however inconvenient, to bring them >to
> justice?
> >4. Is their quest one of importance, or is it merely meant to enrich the
> >party? (Is success worth more than money on their quest?)
> [snippped]
>
> #1 is alright in a city adventure, but it is generally accepted that dungeons
> are unlawful places outside of any respectable authority, where PCs are free
> to make their own rules.

I'm not sure I agree with that last bit. A lawful character probably doesn't feel that it's ok to act illegally just because he's currently out of reach of the authorities. Under no circumstances would a paladin "make his own rules". That being said, I'd love to be a paladin in *your* campaign. ;-) I put a lot of pressure on them to be perfect.

> #2 seems too restrictive if the DM expects the PC todo this each and every
> time the situation comes up. Rather, a smart cleric or paladin will ask his
> superiors in the church when it is okay for him to kill before he even goes on
> his first adventure.

Players rarely exhibit that kind of foresight, and there's always a random element because individuality will make a broad generalization useless. The priest should offer a prayer even if the chance of any omen is 1% or less, giving the deity an opportunity to stop it before it happens is an absolute necessity. It's not easy guessing a god's plan, and the priest must have faith that the will of the deity will make itself known *somehow*

> An oath to the deity asking for an angel (Deva, Planetar, etc.) to judge the combat must be
> undertaken by both combatants.
> [snipped]
>
> Whoa! Magic-rich campaign alert! The 1st level PCs I DM for can ask for an
> angel until they turn blue in the face. It ain't gonna happen!

Maybe not, but that doesn't mean the characters shouldn't ask for god to oversee the combat. Just because it doesn't happen doesn't mean it's not the way it *should* work. Besides, how would the player know if the minion is there or not? It's not like they check in, or show up with a big court of law, and jury... They preside over the proceedings invisibly, as do most angels when dealing with mortals. But that's not important.

The point is that lawful combat is "Combat in the sight of God" and as such, I believe that in a fantasy campaign, cheating after swearing before the gods should carry *some* penalty.

--
Alex Nuta
dracos@videotron.ca
Home Page: http://pages.infinit.net/dracos
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