Showing posts with label Scarlet Brotherhood. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Scarlet Brotherhood. Show all posts
Saturday, December 21, 2024
Tuesday, November 3, 2020
Excerpts from The Scarlet Brotherhood
From: Sean K Reynolds [skreyn@wizards.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 2:42 PM
To: greyhawk@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [GREYHAWK] - A Suel Monk, we need a fresh approach
> I will await Sean's version of the Scarlet brotherhood before I talk about Monks and Assassins again.
Excerpts from The Scarlet Brotherhood:
"lt was on the first day of the year 5091 that I presented my vision to the council of nobles. The Brotherhood of the Scarlet Sign was to be an organization whose sole intent was to prevent the dilution of the virtues of our people. The war with the Bakluni was not preventing contact with their nefarious race, and excursions from rebellious Roka, Chebi, and Hochebi, as will as visitors from the west and south were polluting our people with their flesh and their culture. The Brotherhood would be beholden to the ideals of Suel culture, while forswearing physical and mental corruption; their purity would be like a flame, searing the unworthy and branding the inferior. Despite some resistance from some of the obviously tainted houses, the council and the king approved of my plan and presented me with a mansion and funds to use to create this order ...."
- Kevelli Mauk
founder of the Scarlet Brotherhood and survivor of the Rain of Colorless Fire
from The Journal Of Kevelli Mauk
"Although Kevelli died in 5105 SD, his teachings lived on and he was succeeded by his most talented student, Reshek Nes. Reshek followed his mentor1s lead and created a strict regimen for the most talented students, resulting in a monk-like state of strength through discipline and denial. Over the next hundred years, the members of the Scarlet Brotherhood developed their methods of unarmed combat, realizing that there would be many situations where an empty hand and an innocent face would be the most valuable weapon. "
(From the history of the Scarlet Brotherhood.)
FYI, I made my turnover for this project at the end of September - it's too late to make any major changes to the design at this point.
- Sean
Sean K Reynolds
Designer, TSR Creative Services I skreyn@wizards.com
Check out the Dragon Dice demo/tournament program at
http://www. tsr. com/DragonDice/ddtournament. html
"Lyzandred" on AOL's Instant Messenger, "15693685" on ICQ
***************************************************************************
To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe greyhawk' as the body of the message.
Friday, July 9, 2010
Re: Cats in Greyhawk
Re: [greytalk] Re: Cats in Greyhawk
Tuesday, March 24, 2009 11:31 AM
From: "Stefan Beate"
To: "Greytalk List"
To each his own, I guess. I like that book. Of course, some more stories could be told from that starting point: Is it really Turrosh Mak = Theg Narlot? Perhaps this is another case of wheels within wheels - this identification is a secret that can be found by diligent research and adventuring with quite some risk, but in truth it is just another ruse played expertly. So, most folks think that Turrosh Mak is a more or less random halforc from the free city, bent on gaining his own kingdom. For those "in the know" he is one of the old slavers. The "true" truth may be something else entirely - perhaps some force resurrected the mortal shell of Theg after the defeat of the slavelords, took over this shell and used it to defeat Turrosh Mak, who was really close to getting his own kingdom. Then this force assumed Turroshs identity to further confuse any keeping track of Theg Narlot and the slavelords, or it took over Turroshs mortal body. This force could be anything, from something out of the outer planes to an old suloise wizard whose consciousness was alive somewhere in the Drachensgrab mountains.
Stefan
Chris Anderson schrieb:
> Well, I've never even skimmed the product. Turrosh Mak in my campaign is our lovable half-orc from Greyhawk city. He has no truck with Earth Dragons or the SB, although he is playing around with an alliance with the sahuagin to expand his control into the Sea of Gearnat and up into Wooly Bay.
>
> -- Chris
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:33 AM, Scott > wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Stefan Beate wrote:
> > According to TSR 11621 (2000), Slavers, p 123, Turrosh Mak
> > IS indeed Theg Narlot. He survived and with the help of
> > Brother Kerrins contacts to the Scarlet Brotherhood and a
> > pact with the Earth Dragon managed to rise to power in the
> > Pomarj. Of course, this is only true uf you use the Greyhawk
> > 98 line of books in your game.
>
> You know, someday I'm going to do more than just skim that
> product. Theg Narlot just didn't look like a cat person to me in
> his module A4 illustration. What if the Earth Dragon used cats as
> intermediaries to communicate with, or spy on, Theg/Turrosh...?
>
> ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
>
> Yak-Men like keeping threads going so Greytalk doesn't go quiet
> again...
Tuesday, March 24, 2009 11:31 AM
From: "Stefan Beate"
To: "Greytalk List"
To each his own, I guess. I like that book. Of course, some more stories could be told from that starting point: Is it really Turrosh Mak = Theg Narlot? Perhaps this is another case of wheels within wheels - this identification is a secret that can be found by diligent research and adventuring with quite some risk, but in truth it is just another ruse played expertly. So, most folks think that Turrosh Mak is a more or less random halforc from the free city, bent on gaining his own kingdom. For those "in the know" he is one of the old slavers. The "true" truth may be something else entirely - perhaps some force resurrected the mortal shell of Theg after the defeat of the slavelords, took over this shell and used it to defeat Turrosh Mak, who was really close to getting his own kingdom. Then this force assumed Turroshs identity to further confuse any keeping track of Theg Narlot and the slavelords, or it took over Turroshs mortal body. This force could be anything, from something out of the outer planes to an old suloise wizard whose consciousness was alive somewhere in the Drachensgrab mountains.
Stefan
Chris Anderson schrieb:
> Well, I've never even skimmed the product. Turrosh Mak in my campaign is our lovable half-orc from Greyhawk city. He has no truck with Earth Dragons or the SB, although he is playing around with an alliance with the sahuagin to expand his control into the Sea of Gearnat and up into Wooly Bay.
>
> -- Chris
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:33 AM, Scott
>
> Hi all,
>
> Stefan Beate wrote:
> > According to TSR 11621 (2000), Slavers, p 123, Turrosh Mak
> > IS indeed Theg Narlot. He survived and with the help of
> > Brother Kerrins contacts to the Scarlet Brotherhood and a
> > pact with the Earth Dragon managed to rise to power in the
> > Pomarj. Of course, this is only true uf you use the Greyhawk
> > 98 line of books in your game.
>
> You know, someday I'm going to do more than just skim that
> product. Theg Narlot just didn't look like a cat person to me in
> his module A4 illustration. What if the Earth Dragon used cats as
> intermediaries to communicate with, or spy on, Theg/Turrosh...?
>
> ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
>
> Yak-Men like keeping threads going so Greytalk doesn't go quiet
> again...
Monday, January 18, 2010
Southern Border of Keoland, a Chronology (576-591 CY)
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 00 00:44AM PST
From: Jason Verbitsky Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] Southern Border of Keoland, a Chronology (576-591 CY)
Scott Rennie wrote:
>
> Frank Timar wrote:
>
> <
>
> I think Jason Verbitsky once also pointed out to me that my map doesn't extend far enough west to cover Saltmarsh.
>
>Speaking of Saltmarsh, we need an official story of how events played out in that module series. Saltmarsh and nearby communities will be important in suplying Westkeep.>>
>
> Cue Jason... ;-)
Yes, O' great master, you summoned me? I hear and obey. ;)
I'll answer the second question first: the result of the Saltmarsh Series of Modules (U1-U3) is that the Sahuagin were defeated and driven from the Lizard Men's lair (a raid which, BTW, is not dissimilar to the Raid on Innsmouth -- coincidence? ...) [see U3 page 36]
Now the first question, OTOH, is a bit more complicated and requires a longer answer:
-----------------------
Southern Border History
-----------------------
CHRONOLOGY OF
Date Events Occurring / South Keoland Occupied By
---- --------------------------------------------
576 Needfest (New Years)
Keoland (Start of Classic Greyhawk Campaign)
584 Fireseek (1st month)
Treaty of Niole Dra with Furyondy against Iuz
584 Readying (2nd month)
Allied armies march to aid Furyondy against Iuz
584 Goodmonth (8th month)
Scarlet Brotherhood Invades SP & Southern Keoland
584 Harvester (9th month)
Scarlet Brotherhood calls for peace, Council of Greyhawk convened
585 Readying (2nd month)
Keoish, Gran March, Ulek armies march forth from Flen to liberate the giant-held Earldom of Sterich.
585 Coldeven (3rd month)
Treaty of Greyhawk is finally signed Keoish Southern Border fixed where armies were at
the time of signing.
585 Coldeven (3rd month)
Scarlet Brotherhood holds Southern Keoland (Start of Ashes Campaign)
586 Coldeven
Flight of the Fiends
586 Patchwall (4th month)
Furyondy/Veluna attack Iuz breaking the Treaty of Greyhawk
586 Patchwall (4th month)
earliest possible date Keoish liberation efforts could begin
588 Coldeven (3rd month)
last settlement of Sterich liberated from Giants
589 Summer
Revolts sweep through the Hold of the Sea Princes
Probable that Keoish have begun liberation efforts
590 Early in the year
Keoish armies control Southern Keoland
Keoland captures Westkeep in the Hold of the Sea Princes
591 Needfest (New Years)
Keoland's Southern border reaches to the Hools and beyond (Start of Living Greyhawk Campaign)
COMMENTARY AND EXPLANATION
In 576 CY the town of Saltmarsh, and thus the Southern region between the Dreadwood and the Hool Marshes, is firmly in the Kingdom of Keoland. According to the module U1, THE SINISTER SECRET OF SALTMARSH: "...Saltmarsh is placed in the southernmost part of Keoland, at the western edge of hex U4/123." (1981, p.3). However, the national maps in the 1983 GUIDE TO THE WORLD OF GREYHAWK are less conclusive as the area between the Dread Wood and the Hool Marshes is somewhat of a no-man's land (p.44-45). But as the maps don't say that it isn't (any more than they say that it is) and the module explicitly states that it is, IMNSHO, it is.
In 584 CY, during the Summer/Goodmonth, during the so-called 'Greyhawk Wars' after the Scarlet Brotherhood (SB) conquered the Hold of the Sea Princes (SP) they then proceeded to invade southern Keoland and blockade Gradsul (GW p.15, 23-24).
By 585 CY's "cold, harsh spring", the border between Keoland and the SB/SP is in the middle of the Dreadwood -- right from the Javan River to the Azure Sea (as can be seen on the map on the inside cover _FtA:AotF_, the date of which is stated in the text on page 9).
Here it is worth noting that the it could well have taken the Scarlet Brotherhood's forces up until Spring/Coldeven (3rd Month) of 585 to achieve the border depicted on this map. Many would say that this border would have been achieved by Summer-Fall/Harvester (9th Month) 584, but that seems rather quick for my taste. The dating methodology used by TSR for this period is seriously flawed as the date of the FtA is supposed to be the "Year of Peace" after the Treaty of Greyhawk was signed, and that didn't really happen until Spring/Coldeven (3rd Month) of 585! (GW p.24 vs GH:PG p.11, GH:tAB 5, 19, 62). So this FtA map could either refer to Summer-Fall/Harvester (9th Month) 585 or Coldeven 586.
One really should be responsible and go with the date of the earlier publication and make it 586. (BTW, FWIW, Roger Moore himself has agreed with and admitted to me that the date that TSR uses for the Treaty of Greyhawk is in error, but that AFAHK it will be used in future Greyhawk products nonetheless -- I opt to use the correct date regardless of TSR's choice).
Thus, from sometime between Goodmonth (8th month) of 584 and Coldeven (3rd month) of 585 a bloody struggle ensued between the forces of the Scarlet Brotherhood and Keoland for the area of the Dreadwood to the Hool Marshes. The two sides fought each other to a standstill and in Coldeven 585 with the signing of the Treaty of Greyhawk the southern border of Keoland became fixed midway through the Dreadwood. IMNSHO, this up to 7 month war seems a bit better, and more realistic, than having the SB deliver ultimatums, sail ships in and conquer both the SP and southern Keoland all in a single month.
So in Coldeven of 585 CY the Southern border of Keoland was certainly amidst the Dreadwood (as depicted on the FtA map); However, at some point after Coldeven 586 CY, and before the end of 590, the Keoish could have taken the offensive and liberated Saltmarsh and the rest of Southern Keoland. This is possible because in Coldeven and Planting (4th Month) of 586 Furyondy and Veluna were the first nations to cast aside the Treaty of Greyhawk when they invoked the famous 'Flight of Fiends' and attacked Iuz (GH:tAB 19-21, 31, GH:PG 11-12).
Strictly speaking, however, this would require a SB/SP withdrawal rather than a Keoish offensive as Furyondy-Veluna were the first to break the PACT OF GREYHAWK on the 1st of Patchwall 586. But the Keoish with ties to Furyondy-Veluna may have had some advanced warning of the imminent dissolution of the Pact/Treaty so that they could prepare their offensive better than the SB/SP could their defences, and strike early in the month Patchwall (or soon after) to reclaim the civilized portions of the lost Hool Marches (the Keoish Southlands).
In the summer of 589 CY, revolts swept through the Sea Princes domain shaking the hold that the Scarlet Brotherhood had on that nation (Gh:tAB p.32). If Keoland hadn't already moved to liberate southern Keoland, following Furyondy/Veluna's lead, it is probable that this revolt would be the perfect opportunity to do so. If they already had begun such efforts, the revolts would aid the Keoish by seriously distracting the Scarlet armies as to which threat to deal with -- the Keoish or the Sea Princes, and as the revolt is behind the their own lines opening a second front for the war it is probable that they'd devote more effort to suppressing the revolt than fighting the Keolanders.
In 590 CY, Keoland takes the stronghold Westkeep on the other side of the Hool Marshes, across the Javan River (GH;tAB p.32). Here although it is possible that they take Westkeep before liberating all of Southern Keoland, I think that it is highly unlikely as the resources such an expedition would require would be put to better use freeing Keolanders from their Scarlet yoke. Moreover, the Scarlet Brothers would likely have much reduced forces as they still have to deal with the 589 revolt in the Hold of the Sea Princes. With these southern Keolanders freed the Keoish armies swelled as some joined their ranks in vengeance, and the Scarlet occupational forces were seriously diminished. This way the taking of Westkeep after the liberation of Southern Keoland makes more sense, to me at least, than liberating it after taking Westkeep.
Exactly how long this liberation of Southern Keoland would take, as with how long it took to conquer in the first place, is an open matter. Again I prefer to have both the conquest and liberation to take a longer rather than a shorter period of time and thus make for a more epic struggle between Great Powers. But, despite my opinion on this, the evidence does not preclude one or the other, or both, from being lighting attacks with quick results. I think that 'officially' it should be stated that during these nebulous periods that the battle raged back and forth and the individual DMs can then decide exactly where was occupied when according to what is best for their story at the time. But if this approach is taken in the Living Greyhawk Campaign (or any other official form) it should be done with a most cautious eye on the consequences so that once a particular location's occupation during a certain time is stated in a future module or sourcebook, all subsequent works dealing with the area of southern Keoland be forced to take this into account. However, if this flexibility is too much because of WotC's suggested lower standards of fact-checking for Greyhawk writers, then these nebulous periods should be be provided with a single unambiguous chronology that is simple enough to grasp for even the laziest designer -- thus favouring a quick conquest and liberation in order to minimize the opportunities for any further corruptions and convolutions of the 'official' or 'canon' Greyhawk history. I realize that this sort of detail won't matter to the vast majority of players and/or DMs but for Greyhawk purists, like myself, it is an important consideration.
Regardless, in 591 when the Living Greyhawk campaign is to begin, Keoland's southern border once again stretches to the Hool Marshes and now reaches even beyond as the Keoish armies continue their imperial march...
FWIW, this is only my (unofficial) interpretation of when the Southern border of Keoland was where, YMMV. I hope that it is of some use to you, my fellow Greyhawk, and especially Keoland, fans. Gentle readers amongst you will forgive my inevitable errors in grammar and spelling, and I trust that you'll be kind enough to correct me on something that I may have misunderstood or not stately as clearly as I
should have, or add additional references that I have overlooked this evening. I will be considering this issue in more depth to determine the exact chronology, but I welcome any suggestions that you may have so that this chronology can be refined and improved both for my own campaign and for the Living Greyhawk effort.
P.S. For more information on the other events of the Greyhawk Wars involving Keoland see my message on the "Against the Giants: Combined Chronology". FYI, this message can be found in Morgan's Fantastic GreyTalk Archives:
http://24.112.96.246/Add/Greytalk.nsf/b44505cda4beea3285256664005e00fa/8525678a0009fae8852567d10025ca89?OpenDocument
I'll post this message to the Keoland group as it is particularly on topic for Keoish history. If I were to actually receive sufficient feedback, I could possibly be persuaded to revisit the issue to provide a complete Keoish chronology for the entire Greyhawk Wars somewhat earlier than I'd otherwise get around to it...
Jason
>:)
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
His Dread and Awful Presence,
Jason Verbitsky
hierax@home.com
http://hierax.com/greyhawk/
From: Jason Verbitsky
Subject: [GREYTALK] Southern Border of Keoland, a Chronology (576-591 CY)
Scott Rennie wrote:
>
> Frank Timar wrote:
>
> <
>
> I think Jason Verbitsky once also pointed out to me that my map doesn't extend far enough west to cover Saltmarsh.
>
>Speaking of Saltmarsh, we need an official story of how events played out in that module series. Saltmarsh and nearby communities will be important in suplying Westkeep.>>
>
> Cue Jason... ;-)
Yes, O' great master, you summoned me? I hear and obey. ;)
I'll answer the second question first: the result of the Saltmarsh Series of Modules (U1-U3) is that the Sahuagin were defeated and driven from the Lizard Men's lair (a raid which, BTW, is not dissimilar to the Raid on Innsmouth -- coincidence? ...) [see U3 page 36]
Now the first question, OTOH, is a bit more complicated and requires a longer answer:
-----------------------
Southern Border History
-----------------------
CHRONOLOGY OF
Date Events Occurring / South Keoland Occupied By
---- --------------------------------------------
576 Needfest (New Years)
Keoland (Start of Classic Greyhawk Campaign)
584 Fireseek (1st month)
Treaty of Niole Dra with Furyondy against Iuz
584 Readying (2nd month)
Allied armies march to aid Furyondy against Iuz
584 Goodmonth (8th month)
Scarlet Brotherhood Invades SP & Southern Keoland
584 Harvester (9th month)
Scarlet Brotherhood calls for peace, Council of Greyhawk convened
585 Readying (2nd month)
Keoish, Gran March, Ulek armies march forth from Flen to liberate the giant-held Earldom of Sterich.
585 Coldeven (3rd month)
Treaty of Greyhawk is finally signed Keoish Southern Border fixed where armies were at
the time of signing.
585 Coldeven (3rd month)
Scarlet Brotherhood holds Southern Keoland (Start of Ashes Campaign)
586 Coldeven
Flight of the Fiends
586 Patchwall (4th month)
Furyondy/Veluna attack Iuz breaking the Treaty of Greyhawk
586 Patchwall (4th month)
earliest possible date Keoish liberation efforts could begin
588 Coldeven (3rd month)
last settlement of Sterich liberated from Giants
589 Summer
Revolts sweep through the Hold of the Sea Princes
Probable that Keoish have begun liberation efforts
590 Early in the year
Keoish armies control Southern Keoland
Keoland captures Westkeep in the Hold of the Sea Princes
591 Needfest (New Years)
Keoland's Southern border reaches to the Hools and beyond (Start of Living Greyhawk Campaign)
COMMENTARY AND EXPLANATION
In 576 CY the town of Saltmarsh, and thus the Southern region between the Dreadwood and the Hool Marshes, is firmly in the Kingdom of Keoland. According to the module U1, THE SINISTER SECRET OF SALTMARSH: "...Saltmarsh is placed in the southernmost part of Keoland, at the western edge of hex U4/123." (1981, p.3). However, the national maps in the 1983 GUIDE TO THE WORLD OF GREYHAWK are less conclusive as the area between the Dread Wood and the Hool Marshes is somewhat of a no-man's land (p.44-45). But as the maps don't say that it isn't (any more than they say that it is) and the module explicitly states that it is, IMNSHO, it is.
In 584 CY, during the Summer/Goodmonth, during the so-called 'Greyhawk Wars' after the Scarlet Brotherhood (SB) conquered the Hold of the Sea Princes (SP) they then proceeded to invade southern Keoland and blockade Gradsul (GW p.15, 23-24).
By 585 CY's "cold, harsh spring", the border between Keoland and the SB/SP is in the middle of the Dreadwood -- right from the Javan River to the Azure Sea (as can be seen on the map on the inside cover _FtA:AotF_, the date of which is stated in the text on page 9).
Here it is worth noting that the it could well have taken the Scarlet Brotherhood's forces up until Spring/Coldeven (3rd Month) of 585 to achieve the border depicted on this map. Many would say that this border would have been achieved by Summer-Fall/Harvester (9th Month) 584, but that seems rather quick for my taste. The dating methodology used by TSR for this period is seriously flawed as the date of the FtA is supposed to be the "Year of Peace" after the Treaty of Greyhawk was signed, and that didn't really happen until Spring/Coldeven (3rd Month) of 585! (GW p.24 vs GH:PG p.11, GH:tAB 5, 19, 62). So this FtA map could either refer to Summer-Fall/Harvester (9th Month) 585 or Coldeven 586.
One really should be responsible and go with the date of the earlier publication and make it 586. (BTW, FWIW, Roger Moore himself has agreed with and admitted to me that the date that TSR uses for the Treaty of Greyhawk is in error, but that AFAHK it will be used in future Greyhawk products nonetheless -- I opt to use the correct date regardless of TSR's choice).
Thus, from sometime between Goodmonth (8th month) of 584 and Coldeven (3rd month) of 585 a bloody struggle ensued between the forces of the Scarlet Brotherhood and Keoland for the area of the Dreadwood to the Hool Marshes. The two sides fought each other to a standstill and in Coldeven 585 with the signing of the Treaty of Greyhawk the southern border of Keoland became fixed midway through the Dreadwood. IMNSHO, this up to 7 month war seems a bit better, and more realistic, than having the SB deliver ultimatums, sail ships in and conquer both the SP and southern Keoland all in a single month.
So in Coldeven of 585 CY the Southern border of Keoland was certainly amidst the Dreadwood (as depicted on the FtA map); However, at some point after Coldeven 586 CY, and before the end of 590, the Keoish could have taken the offensive and liberated Saltmarsh and the rest of Southern Keoland. This is possible because in Coldeven and Planting (4th Month) of 586 Furyondy and Veluna were the first nations to cast aside the Treaty of Greyhawk when they invoked the famous 'Flight of Fiends' and attacked Iuz (GH:tAB 19-21, 31, GH:PG 11-12).
Strictly speaking, however, this would require a SB/SP withdrawal rather than a Keoish offensive as Furyondy-Veluna were the first to break the PACT OF GREYHAWK on the 1st of Patchwall 586. But the Keoish with ties to Furyondy-Veluna may have had some advanced warning of the imminent dissolution of the Pact/Treaty so that they could prepare their offensive better than the SB/SP could their defences, and strike early in the month Patchwall (or soon after) to reclaim the civilized portions of the lost Hool Marches (the Keoish Southlands).
In the summer of 589 CY, revolts swept through the Sea Princes domain shaking the hold that the Scarlet Brotherhood had on that nation (Gh:tAB p.32). If Keoland hadn't already moved to liberate southern Keoland, following Furyondy/Veluna's lead, it is probable that this revolt would be the perfect opportunity to do so. If they already had begun such efforts, the revolts would aid the Keoish by seriously distracting the Scarlet armies as to which threat to deal with -- the Keoish or the Sea Princes, and as the revolt is behind the their own lines opening a second front for the war it is probable that they'd devote more effort to suppressing the revolt than fighting the Keolanders.
In 590 CY, Keoland takes the stronghold Westkeep on the other side of the Hool Marshes, across the Javan River (GH;tAB p.32). Here although it is possible that they take Westkeep before liberating all of Southern Keoland, I think that it is highly unlikely as the resources such an expedition would require would be put to better use freeing Keolanders from their Scarlet yoke. Moreover, the Scarlet Brothers would likely have much reduced forces as they still have to deal with the 589 revolt in the Hold of the Sea Princes. With these southern Keolanders freed the Keoish armies swelled as some joined their ranks in vengeance, and the Scarlet occupational forces were seriously diminished. This way the taking of Westkeep after the liberation of Southern Keoland makes more sense, to me at least, than liberating it after taking Westkeep.
Exactly how long this liberation of Southern Keoland would take, as with how long it took to conquer in the first place, is an open matter. Again I prefer to have both the conquest and liberation to take a longer rather than a shorter period of time and thus make for a more epic struggle between Great Powers. But, despite my opinion on this, the evidence does not preclude one or the other, or both, from being lighting attacks with quick results. I think that 'officially' it should be stated that during these nebulous periods that the battle raged back and forth and the individual DMs can then decide exactly where was occupied when according to what is best for their story at the time. But if this approach is taken in the Living Greyhawk Campaign (or any other official form) it should be done with a most cautious eye on the consequences so that once a particular location's occupation during a certain time is stated in a future module or sourcebook, all subsequent works dealing with the area of southern Keoland be forced to take this into account. However, if this flexibility is too much because of WotC's suggested lower standards of fact-checking for Greyhawk writers, then these nebulous periods should be be provided with a single unambiguous chronology that is simple enough to grasp for even the laziest designer -- thus favouring a quick conquest and liberation in order to minimize the opportunities for any further corruptions and convolutions of the 'official' or 'canon' Greyhawk history. I realize that this sort of detail won't matter to the vast majority of players and/or DMs but for Greyhawk purists, like myself, it is an important consideration.
Regardless, in 591 when the Living Greyhawk campaign is to begin, Keoland's southern border once again stretches to the Hool Marshes and now reaches even beyond as the Keoish armies continue their imperial march...
FWIW, this is only my (unofficial) interpretation of when the Southern border of Keoland was where, YMMV. I hope that it is of some use to you, my fellow Greyhawk, and especially Keoland, fans. Gentle readers amongst you will forgive my inevitable errors in grammar and spelling, and I trust that you'll be kind enough to correct me on something that I may have misunderstood or not stately as clearly as I
should have, or add additional references that I have overlooked this evening. I will be considering this issue in more depth to determine the exact chronology, but I welcome any suggestions that you may have so that this chronology can be refined and improved both for my own campaign and for the Living Greyhawk effort.
P.S. For more information on the other events of the Greyhawk Wars involving Keoland see my message on the "Against the Giants: Combined Chronology". FYI, this message can be found in Morgan's Fantastic GreyTalk Archives:
http://24.112.96.246/Add/Greytalk.nsf/b44505cda4beea3285256664005e00fa/8525678a0009fae8852567d10025ca89?OpenDocument
I'll post this message to the Keoland group as it is particularly on topic for Keoish history. If I were to actually receive sufficient feedback, I could possibly be persuaded to revisit the issue to provide a complete Keoish chronology for the entire Greyhawk Wars somewhat earlier than I'd otherwise get around to it...
Jason
>:)
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
His Dread and Awful Presence,
Jason Verbitsky
hierax@home.com
http://hierax.com/greyhawk/
Sunday, January 17, 2010
Future Timelines 3/3. LONG END [incomplete]
Date sent: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:09:00 -0400
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Jay Simpson
Subject: [GREYTALK] Future Timelines 3/3. LONG END
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
This is the last of them for now. I don't want to bog down the list too much. Lemme know what you guys think.
597 Iuz crosses the Yol River and begins a pitched invasion of the Pale. Wintershiven is quickly surrounded by Iuz s mixed humanoid armies, as well as a stronger contingent of Trolls, reputedly from the Troll Fens.
In Keoland, Generals Hazifax and Bagnell take and secure the Yeomanry. Geoff and Sterich are now securely under Keoland s flag, and now have sizable armies and noble leaders to defend them. Tavish V orders his two favorite generals to begin a plan for reclaiming the lost coast lands.
598 Gruznor s troops take and sack Marner in Ratik. After stripping the Ratik capitol of as much supplies as possible, the rest is burned. Most of Marner s citizenry is captured and taken back to the Bone March to be used for different purposes. The men are enslaved and sent to work in the mines at Bellport and Johnsport, while the women are used for breeding purposes. Each woman is blessed with four sets of half orcan offspring, then killed. All the children of Marner are forced into the wilds of the Timberway Forest, left to the elements.
599 General Bagnell begins entrenching men in the Torcs. The cleansing of this swamp is a hard and well earned campaign. Bagnell will find himself still fighting in the infernal marshlands some three years later. Meanwhile, General Hazifax leads his men south, over a small arm of the Hellfurnaces and secretly skirts around the Jerlea Bay. This is to be a long expedition as well.
600 As Wintershiven in the Theocracy of the Pale sees the end of its third year of siege, aid from the south arrives. A large contingent of troops arrive from Urnst and aid in the liberation of the Pale s capital city. The King of Urnst times the attack so that, even as his troops are helping the much decimated Wintershiven, a second yet stronger force descends on Redspan. Iuz suffers a stifling defeat. In Suns ebb of this year, Urnst frees Rift Crag of the Iuz occupation as well.
601-602 The refugees from Tusmit, and Ekbir, allied with forces from Zeif and cavalry from the Paynims and Ull sweep down on the Kettite army from what appears to be no where. The united armies lay siege to Ket s capital city of Lopolla and crush the Kettite army after an 18 month struggle. The Kettites receive reinforcements from their newly founded Perrenland Vassal state. The final battle is long and hard, and rages for the better part of 3 days. In the end the Allied Forces prove victorious, the Kettite scourge is no more.
601 General Hazifax and his men arrive at the first of many Scarlet Brotherhood strongholds on the edges of the Amedio Jungle. The Brotherhood, not expecting such an attack, had kept the stronghold severely undermanned, compared to the size of troops that Hazifax brought with him. Over the course of the next year, Hazifax and his men are able to seize three additional Brotherhood strongholds with barely a sound made. Hazifax is also able to capture all but one of the ships docked at each stronghold. From his base in the Amedio, Hazifax starts bargaining with the local tribes and launching an all out guerilla warfare on all Scarlet Brotherhood controlled lands in the Amedio, using local [Missing the rest of the pages]
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Jay Simpson
Subject: [GREYTALK] Future Timelines 3/3. LONG END
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
This is the last of them for now. I don't want to bog down the list too much. Lemme know what you guys think.
597 Iuz crosses the Yol River and begins a pitched invasion of the Pale. Wintershiven is quickly surrounded by Iuz s mixed humanoid armies, as well as a stronger contingent of Trolls, reputedly from the Troll Fens.
In Keoland, Generals Hazifax and Bagnell take and secure the Yeomanry. Geoff and Sterich are now securely under Keoland s flag, and now have sizable armies and noble leaders to defend them. Tavish V orders his two favorite generals to begin a plan for reclaiming the lost coast lands.
598 Gruznor s troops take and sack Marner in Ratik. After stripping the Ratik capitol of as much supplies as possible, the rest is burned. Most of Marner s citizenry is captured and taken back to the Bone March to be used for different purposes. The men are enslaved and sent to work in the mines at Bellport and Johnsport, while the women are used for breeding purposes. Each woman is blessed with four sets of half orcan offspring, then killed. All the children of Marner are forced into the wilds of the Timberway Forest, left to the elements.
599 General Bagnell begins entrenching men in the Torcs. The cleansing of this swamp is a hard and well earned campaign. Bagnell will find himself still fighting in the infernal marshlands some three years later. Meanwhile, General Hazifax leads his men south, over a small arm of the Hellfurnaces and secretly skirts around the Jerlea Bay. This is to be a long expedition as well.
600 As Wintershiven in the Theocracy of the Pale sees the end of its third year of siege, aid from the south arrives. A large contingent of troops arrive from Urnst and aid in the liberation of the Pale s capital city. The King of Urnst times the attack so that, even as his troops are helping the much decimated Wintershiven, a second yet stronger force descends on Redspan. Iuz suffers a stifling defeat. In Suns ebb of this year, Urnst frees Rift Crag of the Iuz occupation as well.
601-602 The refugees from Tusmit, and Ekbir, allied with forces from Zeif and cavalry from the Paynims and Ull sweep down on the Kettite army from what appears to be no where. The united armies lay siege to Ket s capital city of Lopolla and crush the Kettite army after an 18 month struggle. The Kettites receive reinforcements from their newly founded Perrenland Vassal state. The final battle is long and hard, and rages for the better part of 3 days. In the end the Allied Forces prove victorious, the Kettite scourge is no more.
601 General Hazifax and his men arrive at the first of many Scarlet Brotherhood strongholds on the edges of the Amedio Jungle. The Brotherhood, not expecting such an attack, had kept the stronghold severely undermanned, compared to the size of troops that Hazifax brought with him. Over the course of the next year, Hazifax and his men are able to seize three additional Brotherhood strongholds with barely a sound made. Hazifax is also able to capture all but one of the ships docked at each stronghold. From his base in the Amedio, Hazifax starts bargaining with the local tribes and launching an all out guerilla warfare on all Scarlet Brotherhood controlled lands in the Amedio, using local [Missing the rest of the pages]
Sunday, December 13, 2009
Re: Geographic and political absurdities or why the xoom Keoland writeup bites
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 14:04PM PST
From: Taras Cranden-Guarhoth
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Geographic and political absurdities or why the xoom Keoland writeup bites
> I'll look into the two less outrageous of the claims:
First of all, the author has stated that while based on canon, it's not completely canon.
> a) the Brotherhood has superiority on the seas. Any naval campaign is going to be a lost cause unless the brotherhood's control of the seas can be broken. Unfortunately, there is no easy way out
> on this one, as unlike demons, there is nothing to send the numerous seamonsters back into the depths. All the weirdos and pirates on the costs of the Jerlea bay aren't likely to be of
> tremendous help and are not likely to mount a big united campaign.
> Keoland does not have the option of an allout naval campaign against the Brotherhood, as it would leave their coast and ports
> open to the brotherhood forces coming from say the lordship of the isles. Similarily, if the keolandish naval forces do not gain a definate upper hand, they may get pitched between two
> brotherhood forces in the Jerlea Bay.
Flaw: This assumes that there's nothing else, like, say the Sea Barons, Nyrond, Ahlissa, not to mention that big blockade they're trying to run (it's gotta be tough to blockade such a huge expanse of open water). The moment the SB and their lackeys went ahead and tried to concentrate fully on something like overpowering Keoland navally, everyone else would notice the sudden drop in SB activity, and pounce. I think the SB would be less likely to interfere with Keoland invading a province they've pretty much lost if it'd mean they'd face increaded raids within provinces that they're not losing and are a lot closer to home.
> b) the hool marshes is a possibility, but it would have very grim results. Hool marshes are after all a big part of what has kept the Keoland out of there for so long. Just about the only way
> of moving large amounts of troops through the Hool Marches would be building special roads - most probably from treetrunks -
> over which the troops could move. Reinforcements and supplies would be a severe problem, especially should something happen to the long marsh road (which does not require all that high
> level mage). The army also has the chance of the road being destroyed at which point they are stuck in the middle of a large marsh with limited supplies...
IIRC, Keoland already went through the Hools to invade the Sea Princes once.
So it CAN be done. Plus, they could go by barge down the Javan, making the amount of marshlands that they'd need to cross significantly less.
> That all above there assumes that the locals in the Hold do not side with the Brotherhood against the new enemy - the Keoland. Keoland and the Hold have never had particularily good relations, and while they probably would at least initally cheer anybody fighting the Brotherhood, there is no
> reason to think that they like Keoland even a tiny bit more than the Brotherhood.
The locals consist of a rather large variety of peoples...Olman and Amedian savages, natives of the Sea Princes, slaves taken from around the Flanaess who were owned by the Sea Princes or Scarlet Brotherhood...I think the Keoish would face less opposition than you'd think. After all, the Olman detest the Brotherhood, as does anyone of non-Suel extraction. That alone would make them more inclined to side with the Keoish. As for the native Holders, well, considering that they all got made slaves by the SB, they'd probabily be a bit more inclined to side with the Keoish, in the hopes of getting some power back. I doubt too many would rebel against a well-trained Keoish army. But a lot may conspire behind the scenes.
> The inital cheering would soon be replaced by backstabing and sabotage.
Sounds like the makings of a campaign. And, of course, since each petty noble wants to rule a free Sea Princes, they wouldn't want to let the plans of the other nobles succeed.
> a) has a lot of dissent against any further wars due to excessive losses, inc. back at home (assassinations, etc.)
Well, there WAS a civil war, providing we're thinking of the same page.
> c) must hold in check a very troublesome new province.
And? Like the SB didn't have to hold in check a very troublesome province? That's just a fact of conquering.
> a) Yeomanry is bound to dislike the presence of Keoland on more than one of it's borders and would naturally provide help - whetever offical or not - to any dissent in Sterich.
The Yeomanry would be disinclined to do much of anything against Keoland. They do best in defense, by arming everyone. Now, if they took all these new troops to war, they'd run out of food, since they'd basically empty their country in order to use their main advantage.
> b) The Sterich refugees are bound to dislike any military action in Sterich that does not involve them, and a military action involving them will not lead to Sterich becoming part of
> Keoland.
Sterich refugees are a non-factor. A) They couldn't hold their own country in the first place. B) They are scattered about all over the place. Not all of them went to Keoland. In fact, those that had the least love for the Keoish were probabily those who went the farthest from Keoland. Those who saw Keoland as a strong, protective land that could keep them safe were probabily those who fled to Keoland.
> c) Gran Marsh, Veluna and the Ulek states are bound to strongly oppose any attempts of Keoland to annex Sterich. As Keoland cannot allow itself to be put to the situation that all it's
> neighbours have many axes to grind with it, it will not be able to undertake it. It would just not survive if its border areas and Good Hills decided to leave. It would immediately leave to
> the rest of the Keoland being split into three separate parts.
He's already stated that the three Uleks were backing Keoland. And as for Veluna, it's a non-issue. Veluna has two countries between in and Keoland. I seriously doubt they're worrying about Keoland with Ket on their border and a war with Iuz going on in their backyard (Furyondy). Which just leaves the Gran March. If the Gran March has any intelligence, it'd shut up, given that Ket's running around to the north, Veluna is distracted, and the Uleks have sided with the Keoish...leaves them pretty much alone and vulnerable...wouldn't want to give those Keoish any reason to invade, now would we? And the Good Hills...IIRC, that's the area that broke away in the civil war and had to be, erm, pacified.
> d) instead of guarding a border along a river Keoland will get new borders, inc. a very extensive border with Geoff and in the mountains, and will have to guard it against further incursions
> by giants, etc.
Which I'm sure Keoland is more than capabale of. After all, if the threats in the 591 CY era aren't so great as to stop the Sterich from doing it canonically, there wouldn't be enough to bother the Keoish from doing it in the same timeframe.
> C. Getting the Ulek States under it's banner. Yeah, right. And both Demogorgon and Grazzt reformed themselves and are now living on the plains of Elusium with other good gods...
If you disagree with his heresies, that's fine. But there's no need to discourage him from posting by mocking him. It speaks more about you than it does about him.
> Where Keoland would get all those resources that would take is another matter entirely.
Let's see...it's a big country...it was the only big country that wasn't directly involved in the Wars which troubled so much of the Flanaess a while back...odds are, it already had the resources. Gearing itself up for the next round so that it wouldn't get caught off guard like Furyondy (or worse, Tenh) were. It just decided to put the war into it's own terms, and on other people's soil, instead of it's own.
==
Taras Guarhoth, Sage of House Cranden
http://www.bestweb.net/~guarhoth/
From: Taras Cranden-Guarhoth
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Geographic and political absurdities or why the xoom Keoland writeup bites
> I'll look into the two less outrageous of the claims:
First of all, the author has stated that while based on canon, it's not completely canon.
> a) the Brotherhood has superiority on the seas. Any naval campaign is going to be a lost cause unless the brotherhood's control of the seas can be broken. Unfortunately, there is no easy way out
> on this one, as unlike demons, there is nothing to send the numerous seamonsters back into the depths. All the weirdos and pirates on the costs of the Jerlea bay aren't likely to be of
> tremendous help and are not likely to mount a big united campaign.
> Keoland does not have the option of an allout naval campaign against the Brotherhood, as it would leave their coast and ports
> open to the brotherhood forces coming from say the lordship of the isles. Similarily, if the keolandish naval forces do not gain a definate upper hand, they may get pitched between two
> brotherhood forces in the Jerlea Bay.
Flaw: This assumes that there's nothing else, like, say the Sea Barons, Nyrond, Ahlissa, not to mention that big blockade they're trying to run (it's gotta be tough to blockade such a huge expanse of open water). The moment the SB and their lackeys went ahead and tried to concentrate fully on something like overpowering Keoland navally, everyone else would notice the sudden drop in SB activity, and pounce. I think the SB would be less likely to interfere with Keoland invading a province they've pretty much lost if it'd mean they'd face increaded raids within provinces that they're not losing and are a lot closer to home.
> b) the hool marshes is a possibility, but it would have very grim results. Hool marshes are after all a big part of what has kept the Keoland out of there for so long. Just about the only way
> of moving large amounts of troops through the Hool Marches would be building special roads - most probably from treetrunks -
> over which the troops could move. Reinforcements and supplies would be a severe problem, especially should something happen to the long marsh road (which does not require all that high
> level mage). The army also has the chance of the road being destroyed at which point they are stuck in the middle of a large marsh with limited supplies...
IIRC, Keoland already went through the Hools to invade the Sea Princes once.
So it CAN be done. Plus, they could go by barge down the Javan, making the amount of marshlands that they'd need to cross significantly less.
> That all above there assumes that the locals in the Hold do not side with the Brotherhood against the new enemy - the Keoland. Keoland and the Hold have never had particularily good relations, and while they probably would at least initally cheer anybody fighting the Brotherhood, there is no
> reason to think that they like Keoland even a tiny bit more than the Brotherhood.
The locals consist of a rather large variety of peoples...Olman and Amedian savages, natives of the Sea Princes, slaves taken from around the Flanaess who were owned by the Sea Princes or Scarlet Brotherhood...I think the Keoish would face less opposition than you'd think. After all, the Olman detest the Brotherhood, as does anyone of non-Suel extraction. That alone would make them more inclined to side with the Keoish. As for the native Holders, well, considering that they all got made slaves by the SB, they'd probabily be a bit more inclined to side with the Keoish, in the hopes of getting some power back. I doubt too many would rebel against a well-trained Keoish army. But a lot may conspire behind the scenes.
> The inital cheering would soon be replaced by backstabing and sabotage.
Sounds like the makings of a campaign. And, of course, since each petty noble wants to rule a free Sea Princes, they wouldn't want to let the plans of the other nobles succeed.
> a) has a lot of dissent against any further wars due to excessive losses, inc. back at home (assassinations, etc.)
Well, there WAS a civil war, providing we're thinking of the same page.
> c) must hold in check a very troublesome new province.
And? Like the SB didn't have to hold in check a very troublesome province? That's just a fact of conquering.
> a) Yeomanry is bound to dislike the presence of Keoland on more than one of it's borders and would naturally provide help - whetever offical or not - to any dissent in Sterich.
The Yeomanry would be disinclined to do much of anything against Keoland. They do best in defense, by arming everyone. Now, if they took all these new troops to war, they'd run out of food, since they'd basically empty their country in order to use their main advantage.
> b) The Sterich refugees are bound to dislike any military action in Sterich that does not involve them, and a military action involving them will not lead to Sterich becoming part of
> Keoland.
Sterich refugees are a non-factor. A) They couldn't hold their own country in the first place. B) They are scattered about all over the place. Not all of them went to Keoland. In fact, those that had the least love for the Keoish were probabily those who went the farthest from Keoland. Those who saw Keoland as a strong, protective land that could keep them safe were probabily those who fled to Keoland.
> c) Gran Marsh, Veluna and the Ulek states are bound to strongly oppose any attempts of Keoland to annex Sterich. As Keoland cannot allow itself to be put to the situation that all it's
> neighbours have many axes to grind with it, it will not be able to undertake it. It would just not survive if its border areas and Good Hills decided to leave. It would immediately leave to
> the rest of the Keoland being split into three separate parts.
He's already stated that the three Uleks were backing Keoland. And as for Veluna, it's a non-issue. Veluna has two countries between in and Keoland. I seriously doubt they're worrying about Keoland with Ket on their border and a war with Iuz going on in their backyard (Furyondy). Which just leaves the Gran March. If the Gran March has any intelligence, it'd shut up, given that Ket's running around to the north, Veluna is distracted, and the Uleks have sided with the Keoish...leaves them pretty much alone and vulnerable...wouldn't want to give those Keoish any reason to invade, now would we? And the Good Hills...IIRC, that's the area that broke away in the civil war and had to be, erm, pacified.
> d) instead of guarding a border along a river Keoland will get new borders, inc. a very extensive border with Geoff and in the mountains, and will have to guard it against further incursions
> by giants, etc.
Which I'm sure Keoland is more than capabale of. After all, if the threats in the 591 CY era aren't so great as to stop the Sterich from doing it canonically, there wouldn't be enough to bother the Keoish from doing it in the same timeframe.
> C. Getting the Ulek States under it's banner. Yeah, right. And both Demogorgon and Grazzt reformed themselves and are now living on the plains of Elusium with other good gods...
If you disagree with his heresies, that's fine. But there's no need to discourage him from posting by mocking him. It speaks more about you than it does about him.
> Where Keoland would get all those resources that would take is another matter entirely.
Let's see...it's a big country...it was the only big country that wasn't directly involved in the Wars which troubled so much of the Flanaess a while back...odds are, it already had the resources. Gearing itself up for the next round so that it wouldn't get caught off guard like Furyondy (or worse, Tenh) were. It just decided to put the war into it's own terms, and on other people's soil, instead of it's own.
==
Taras Guarhoth, Sage of House Cranden
http://www.bestweb.net/~guarhoth/
Subscribe to:
Comments (Atom)