Suloise vs Baklunish

 From: Allen [gargoyle@GVI.NET]

Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 4:35 PM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] (Suloise vs Baklunish)

>While I am sort of on this Suloise kick--what makes anyone think the current batch of barbarians found on the Thillonrian Peninsula have anything to do ith their ancient Suloise forefathers ( or fore-mothers if you follow the matriarchal lineage idea), or in any way but the most crude resemble the vikings of Old Earth?

My own take on this has been that the Thillornian Penn. was inhabited by a minor race when the seul refugees made it there. Through various conflicts, politics, etc., the two peoples merged into one, retaining mostly cultural elements of the original race and the reiligion and appearance of the seul. Not perfect, but it works ...

> They were the ragged remains of a people that first invaded what is now the Yeomanry and Keoland. After consecutive drubbings they ended up in lands no one else either owned or wanted. So some questions I have ...

> Who taught them about boats? I haven't a clue on this one.

> Would they even bother with a batch of deities that more-or-less failed to prevent the downfall of one of the greatest empires the Oerth has ever seen? Llerg, yes! Maybe even Norebo. But Braim, Beltar, Lydia, and Lendor, probably not. I don't see mages as having real high status among the Thillonrian barbarians--magery was equally responsible for everyone on the sub-continent hating them with a passion. So Wee Jas probably wouldn't have a real big following their either. You might be able to give Xerbo, Phyton, Phaulkon, and Furtubo more "macho" aspects. Rough them up a bit and give them a cruder, less subtle edge. Kord needs to become more than just the god of sports. IMC he has a very strong storm aspect (sort of the Stormbull of the north, ala RQ). Pyremius (the poisonous dwarf) and Syrul (his lying mom) are just deities of those sour old folks who remember the good old days when the Suloise enslaved everyone and sacrificed them on bloody altars.

> How did such a decadent culture (as the Suel Dominion) lend itself to survival in the frozen north? It probably didn't. I would say they probably copied the survival techniques and society of some other unnamed (possibly Flani) culture already living in the area. Maybe they intermarried, maybe they didn't. Maybe they were just successful enough to overwhelm the natives, subjugate them and maintain a few of the Old Ways.

> Anyway, just a few thoughts on what many folk take to be assumptions.

>--Chris Jarvis

My list of deities for the Thillornian barbarians is likewise different from the standard seul - I include many norse or norse-like deities.

Oeridian Origins

 From: Noel Graham [vision.at.work@JUNO.COM]

Sent ; Saturday, November 21, 1998 2:14 PM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Oeridian Origins (was AGGHHHAA!!!!)

Now, imagine if the Oeridians were once an evolved culture from the region now known as the Land of Black Ice. After some cataclysmic event, most of the survivors were forced into a nomadic role. Perhaps some small facet of their culture, much defeated, even alien by current standards, remains in Blackmoor. Or, perhaps Blackmoor developed from a rival or subjugated/subservient (formery dependent?) culture making use of the remains (or dealing proximately with them).

The Oeridians may have had an advanced seafaring aspect, based around the Drawmidj. Upon the destruction/internal collapse of their society, they moved south and west along the coast into what is now the Baklunnish lands. Of course, some traveled even more south or east, but this discussion focuses on the coastal migrations.

Start with the Baklunnish indeed inhabiting the southerly realms of what today is said to be old Suel lands (Sea of Dust) and some amount of the Dry Steppes. Bring the Suel in from the SW and into conflict with the Baklunnish. This cultural clash, both militarily, magically, and philosophically (including religion) continues as the Suloise invaders press the Baklunnish ever northward.

The B. resist conquest, but the struggles are as much interrupted by the need for commerce to support the agricultural/lifestyle alterations occurring as part of the movements. Still, the enmities are deeply founded. After the eventual conflict of the Rain of Colorless Fire/Invoked Devastation, the B. are driven in whole northward to the Drawmidj coast.

During this time, the B. also came into conflict with the Oeridians. These embittered nomads had not the strength to resist the B. with some even becoming mercenary forces in the B./S. conflicts. Other tribes of the O. were absorbed into the B., with only the Uli retaining any significant territory unto itself. Over the course of events the momentum of the O. flow westward becomes reversed, sending what portion that retains its cultural/racial identity back into the Flanaess. There, they are followed, at least in some small part, by the B. (who pretty much stop at the Yatils).

The migratory chart of the races found in the '83 Guide (p. 10) is only partially accurate, then, as it does not reflect the "total" movements of the Oeridians and attempts to retrofit their presence south of the Burneal Forest by saying they expanded their population, while still being turned back by the Flannae (what? near) the modern (pre-Wars) Rovers holdings.

It seems far more likely the Oeridians integrated with the Flan inhabitants of the region to create the Chakyik and Wegweir. Still, the text (for the Wolf Nomads, at least) claims these nomads are of B. extraction, verily overlooking the equal O. presence indicated by the p.10 migrations map. For the purposes of explanation, consider that this quantification has been done relatively recently in Flanaess history.

Assuming the some amount of the O. did become racially absorbed by the B. moving northward (perhaps some were already present when the O. got there) from the south, this racial confusion is to be expected. The '83 box gave me a fit on this point when I first read it (oh, long enough ago). The O. were being characterized by their pure-blood appearance, which the cross-breeds didn't possess. The B. were being given credit for the rest, seemingly for no more reason than their historically recent presence west of the Yatils (they're nearby).

My apologies for not being more detailed (but not less long-winded ::smile::). I posted more elaborate explanations back at the beginning of the year, but they were generally overlooked then. Assuming my way of making things terribly complex is actually of interest to folks, I'll try to compile more of it together in the coming months for posting. (I say months because the holiday seasons are virtually upon us, and y'all know what a bear it is to work during them, and because of other projects *demanding* my time.)

Placing GH legends in chronology

 From: Mark Barazzuol [markb@intergate.bc.ca]

Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 11 :36 AM

To: 'greyhawk@MPGN.COM'

Subject: RE: [GREYHAWK] - Placing GH legends in chronology

I am attempting to place several of the historical and legendary figures of Oerth in a chronological order to help determine the possible influence and interaction between them.

I am looking for info on the powerful Mages, Liches and King-Priests ofhistory such as:

Tuerny, Lum, Acerak, Vecna, Tsojcanth, Cuthbert, and any others that come to mind.

Most of the time, all the books give you is "A long time back," or many centuries ago ..

Tuerny had influence over part of the great kingdom if I remember correctly, he may have controlled all of it at one time with his demonic servants. The artifact later turned on it's creator, and well, let's just say the rest is what you see of Tuerny now .. Given that time frame, it would put him in Early Great Kingdom history. Depending on the way you look at it possibly even before the formation of the great kingdom. (If you believe there was civilized life there before ..

Baron Lum was a noble under the rule of one of the Kings of Aerdy. He had - quite a rivalry going between himself and Leuk-o another who discovered one of those technological artifacts. He is definitly one of those early great kingdom personages too. No firm dates given.

Acerak is easily the most ancient of those you listed there. With the POSSIBLE exeception of Tsojcanth, depending on how you look at his time period. We know Acerak's empire was around the Sunndi area, and it existed before that place turned into a swamp. Given that there is no record of it with even early Great Kingdom history I would place them at least 500 years before the migration. Probally even 1000. Also given that Acerack had to be extremely old at that time. I would say the kingdom itself would have had to have lasted at very least 1000 years. (It does take a while for a lich to turn to dust..)

There is so much conflicting stuff on Vecna I can't really tell you .. Probally 1000+ years ago his empire was around. I wouldn't make it too much more than that.. I also don't even know where his empire was supposed to be. Early TSR docs seem to point to the West, somewhere in either the Suel or Oerdian empires. The most current docs point to around the Nyr Dyv area. Go figure ..

To find out how Tsojcanth was you just have to figure, when was the last time Tharizdun was active on Oerth? Given what horrors this guy is responsible for, I'd say he predates any of the history books for any races here. I'd put him 10,000 years back... He seems to be in a time period all to himself.

Cuthbert? No one has even speculated that before.. How old is Celestian? Or Farlanghn? Who knows? It's probally got to take a while to get up to that status. Realistically, I don't see any of the gods with "Medevil" styles to them originating on Oerth at all. Back when they were actually mortal (if they ever were .. ) the time period wouldn't have reached a Medevil point in Oerth culture.. No, probally like Mayheine they migrated. Maybe it wasn't from too far though .. Remember, there's lots of life on some of the other planets in the Oerth solar system. Some like Kule which have had long dead civilizations.. Who knows?

Excerpts from The Scarlet Brotherhood

 From: Sean K Reynolds [skreyn@wizards.com]

Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 2:42 PM

To: greyhawk@MPGN.COM

Subject: Re: [GREYHAWK] - A Suel Monk, we need a fresh approach

> I will await Sean's version of the Scarlet brotherhood before I talk about Monks and Assassins again.

Excerpts from The Scarlet Brotherhood:

"lt was on the first day of the year 5091 that I presented my vision to the council of nobles. The Brotherhood of the Scarlet Sign was to be an organization whose sole intent was to prevent the dilution of the virtues of our people. The war with the Bakluni was not preventing contact with their nefarious race, and excursions from rebellious Roka, Chebi, and Hochebi, as will as visitors from the west and south were polluting our people with their flesh and their culture. The Brotherhood would be beholden to the ideals of Suel culture, while forswearing physical and mental corruption; their purity would be like a flame, searing the unworthy and branding the inferior. Despite some resistance from some of the obviously tainted houses, the council and the king approved of my plan and presented me with a mansion and funds to use to create this order ...."

- Kevelli Mauk

founder of the Scarlet Brotherhood and survivor of the Rain of Colorless Fire

from The Journal Of Kevelli Mauk

"Although Kevelli died in 5105 SD, his teachings lived on and he was succeeded by his most talented student, Reshek Nes. Reshek followed his mentor1s lead and created a strict regimen for the most talented students, resulting in a monk-like state of strength through discipline and denial. Over the next hundred years, the members of the Scarlet Brotherhood developed their methods of unarmed combat, realizing that there would be many situations where an empty hand and an innocent face would be the most valuable weapon. "

(From the history of the Scarlet Brotherhood.)

FYI, I made my turnover for this project at the end of September - it's too late to make any major changes to the design at this point.

- Sean

Sean K Reynolds

Designer, TSR Creative Services I skreyn@wizards.com

Check out the Dragon Dice demo/tournament program at

http://www. tsr. com/DragonDice/ddtournament. html

"Lyzandred" on AOL's Instant Messenger, "15693685" on ICQ

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Greyhawk Wars Timeline, Month by Month

 From: Pat Ellis [PatEllis15@AOL.COM]

Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 8:43 AM

To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

Subject: [GREYTALK] Wars Timeline, Month by Month

Someone was looking for a month by month timeline of the Greyhawk Wars. Well, here it is. I should say that I did this work about 5 years ago, and my campaign differs slight from "canon". I've tried to make the obvious changes (i.e. IMC it was the Spindrift's captured by the S.B., not the Lordship), but chances are there ARE mistakes in here .... In fact taking another look at it, I probably added a bit just to flesh it out, there may be NO reference to show where I found some of this stuff ...

582

Fireseek

"Joining of Forces, Barbarians and Fists"

Readying

Sevvard Red Beard becomes "General" of the barbarian forces

Planting

Sacking of Calbut

Siege of Nevond Nevnend

Fall ofTenh

Vatun revealed as luz, Barbarians disband

Fall of Horned Society

Flocktime

Bandit Kingdoms absorbed by luz

Fall of the Shield Lands

Wealsun

luz pushes toward the Pale, but is ground to a stalemate.(*)

Reaping

Fall of Crockport

Siege of Chendl begins

Alliance between Aerdy and the Bone March (*)

Siege of Chendl is broken

Goodmonth

Fall of Sunndi

Aerdy armies enter the Adri Forest, and Iron Hills (*)

Osson's raid begins with penetration into the South Province

Harvester

Osson Liberates Sunndi

Siege of Nulbish (*)

Patchwall

Osson invades and "Conquers" Medegia

Spidasa flees to Rauxes, and suffers the endless death

Sunsebb

Assassination of Price Latmac Ranolg (*)

Note During the winter between 582 and 583, a number of treaties, or agreements must have been signed: Between luz, and Ket, Furyondy got some allies, Nyrond looked for support from Urnst etc.

583

Fireseek

Belvor is able to mobilize the southern armies and march them North in Furyondy

Lordship of the Isles are taken by the Scarlet Brotherhood

Readying

Turrosh Mak invades and takes the southern areas of the Wild Coast

Turrosh Mak invades eastern Principality of Ulek

Turrosh Mak takes the lower Lortmils, but is finally ground to a halt.

Coldeven

Celene recalls all troops and becomes isolationist

Osson's army is destroyed by Aerdy in Medegia

Planting

Medegia is pillaged

Flocktime

S.B. moves north, and takes ldee, and Onnwall (Note I'm assuming this occurred here, but I can't be certain as it didn't happen IMC).

Sea Princes fall to the S.B.

Wealsun

Sterrich, Geoff are overrun by Giants, the Yeomany collapses (did it?)

Northern Furyondy is fully in the control of luz

Reaping

Eradication of Almor

Bissel invaded by Ket

Execution of generals by lvid. later, reanimated as Animus'

Goodmonth

Invasion of Nyrond (ground to a halt with little gain, large loss of life)

Assassination of lvid (reanimated as an animus)

North Province breaks away as Nyrond pushes back (*)

Collapse of Aerdy

Harvester

Council of Greyhawk Convenes

Anything marked with a * is probably of my own creation. Let's edit away! If you know of something else that should be included, or that should be changed let me know and I'll change it...

Pat E

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Azalin Greyhawk timeline

 From: Dr. Rainer Nagel [rnagel@GOOFY.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE]

Sent: Monday, September 28, 1998 6:47 AM

To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Subject: [GREYTALK] Azalin (very long)

The two Ravenloft novels _King of the Dead_ and _Lord of the Necropolis_ (both by Gene De Weese) contain a lot of information about Azalin's days on Oerth. Since those of you who create timelines might be interested, I'm posting a summary here. Since we're talking about books, not adventures, the info presented here might not be. canon, but at least it is canonical within Ravenloft, since it appears verbatim in other RL products.

231 CY

The man who will later become known as Azalin is born in Knurl as Firan Zal'honan, 2nd son of Earl Turalitan Zal'honan, ruler of Knurl. He has an older brother, Ranald, who is a glutton. (KING, p. 81, implied - the action starts in 246 CY and Firan is 15 years old).

234 CY

A younger brother, Irik, is born, who grows up to be loved most by the populace. (KING, p. 81, implied)

246 CY

Firan attempts a "Grand Summoning", together with lrik and the Nyrondese mage Corsalus. The summoning goes wrong, due to a mistake by Corsalus and Firan's faltering at a crucial time. A fiend takes possession of lrik. Earl Turalitan kills his son in demon form, not recognizing him. (KING, p. 89-114) Later that year, Firan relocates to Eastfair (reaching it at the beginning of Fireseek - p. 120) to become an apprentice with Quantarius (a mage who was exiled from Knurl after the lrik incident). Firan is considered to be quite talented. (KING, p. 115-125)

255 CY

Firan defends the caravan of Merchant Glodreddi highly competently against an ambush. He displays first evil tendencies. (KING, p. 126-131)

270 CY

A School of Magic, led by Quantarius, has been established at Eastfair, with Firan being its most highly skilled member. Firan's father dies and is replaced by Ranald.

275 CY

Firan has learned how to collect the life energies of the dying and to apply them to rejuvenate. Quantarius is not pleased and tells Firan of a disturbing prophecy that he should no try to cheat death. Firan finally leaves for Rauxes. (KING, p. 143-149)

283 CY

Firan helps quell a rebellion against the ruling house (which is not named; but their prince is called Edron). Firan lusts for power [he's probably LE at this point]. Then Ranald dies and Firan is recalled to Knurl which he frees of bandits and scheming mages. The people proclaim him "Azal'lan', meaning "wizard king" in Old Ceridian. (KING: 150-165)

283 CY - 291 CY

In the following years, Firan swears fealty to the Malachite Throne and rules Knurl with a heavy hand. He discourages priesthoods which leads to the almost total annihilation of wors~ip in Knurl. Despite frequent infusions of life energy, he begins to. age. (KING, p. 167f.)

291 CY

Firan, who is now respected and feared throughout the Flanaess, coerces a woman named Olessa, daughter of one Count Delaric, into marriage after killing her erstwhile suitor (unbeknownst to her). The marriage is not happy and remains childless. (KING, p. 167-177)

308 CY

Firan finds out that Olessa had herself purposely made barren by a gypsy woman. He finds a way to undo this and fathers a son. Olessa dies in childbed. (KING: p. 176-181)

318 CY

Firan becomes concerned that lrik feels drawn more to the peasants than to the ruling classes (as did his mother). He shows no signs of liking Firan's way of ruling. (KING, p. 182-186) In the following years, Firan's hold over Knurl begins to weaken (KING, p.186)

321 CY

Irik begins to conspire against his father. (KING, p. 184-186)

327 CY

Irik is caught and executed by his father for treason. Firan begins to hear voices (actually the powers of Ravenloft). They persuade him to become a lich [alignment shift to CE?]. (KING, p. 187-198)

329 CY

Firan becomes a lich. (KING, p. 198-203) From this year onwards ("for threescore years" - KING, p. 204), Firan searches for a means to revive his son [remember: no priests in Knurl!]. In the meantime, he seizes the Teesar Valley, the Flinty Hills, the Blemu Hills, and the Adri Forest and installs a reign of terror. He creates an army of unded from slain enemies and dissidents. (KING, p. 204-206)

391 CY

Firan's armies capture lnnspa (KING, p. 206). He is tricked into a trap by his trusted lieutenant Stakaster (KING, p. 207-216), escapes [he has to run away because he doesn't know Teleport, would you believe it] and is brought to Ravenloft by the Mists (KING, p. 219-236). He emerges in Barovia in the year 542, Barovian Calendar. There he forms an uneasy alliance with Strahd Von Zarovich which lasts until 579 Barovian Calendar. Then, he gets to be Lord of his own domain, Darkon.

I spare you the details of Azalin's activities in Ravenloft (save for the mention that Patricia Nead Elrod's _I, Strahd: The War Against Azalin_ contains a good account of this conflict with excellent Azalin characterization).

In the end, it turns out that the Ravenloft powers had influenced Firan from tbe moment of his birth and marked him for some sinister purpose. (LORD, p. 170-172) This purpose turns out to be the freeing of the Ravenloft powers while searching for a means to revive his son. (LORD, 283f.)

Azalin finally finds out about this and prevents it. He manages to return to Oerth in 246 CY, at the time of the Grand Summoning, to change events -but ends up _creating_ them by causing his younger self's indicision at the crudial moment himself. He is finally absorbed by the Ravenloft powers, condemned to watch his actions all over again. Darkon becomes a necropolis. (LORD, p. 290-301)

588 CY

There is a short epilogie dealing with two characters called Oldar and Balitor, former subjects of Azalin to whom he had taken a liking. Before his final fall {and the transformation of Darkon into a necropolis) he promised to send them to safety, which they find on Oerth, their memories of Darkon being only bad dreams. {LORD, p. 302f.)

All right, this does it. I hope it is of yome service to some of you.

Rainer

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Vecna, and Product Timeline

From: Pierre-Paul Durastanti [elvelyn@CLUB-INTERNET.FR]

Sent: Sunday, September 27, 1998 2:38 PM

To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Subject: [GREYTALK] Vecna, and Product Timeline

Immaculate Image wrote:

>I think somebody said that Vecna lives was set in 584(6)?

According to Greyhawk: the Adventure Begins, by Roger E. Moore, it is set "around 582 CY or shortly before" (GtAB, page 2).

Memento: 

"First wave" of products ('NoG folio, WoG boxed set): 576 CY (GtAB, page 2).

WG5 Morderkainen's Fantastic Adventure: "before 570 CY, perhaps as early as 560" (GtAB, page 3).

WG6 Isle of the Ape: "years before the Greyhawk wars" (GtAB, page 3).

T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil: "prior to the Greyhawk Wars, in the mid- to late 570s" (GtAB, page 3)

A 1-A4 Scourge of the Slave-Lords: "picks up where T1-4 ... leaves off" (GtAB, page 3).

"Second wave" (GH Adventures, CoG boxed set, WG8 Fate of lstus, WGA 1-3 "Falcon" trilogy, WGA4 Vecna Lives): "around 582 CY or shortly before" (GtAB, page 2).

The "Falcon" trilogy chronicles events that are "assumed to have taken place just before WGA4 ... occurred".

"Third wave" (GH Wars, FtA and subsequent accessories): 584 CY (GtAB, page 2).

"Bridge" product (Return of the Eight): 585 CY (GtAB, page 2).

"Fourth wave" (PGtGH, G:tAB}: 585-591 CY (GtAB, page 2).

Star Cairns is not specifically dated. It's supposed to be set after Rary went to the Bright Desert, though, since there's a reference to "the so-called "Empire of the Bright Sands" of the archmage Rary" (SC, page 5, "The Modern Cairn" section). Also, Jallarzi Sallavarian is a member of the Circle of Eight (SC, page 2, "Recent Events" section).

Pierre-Paul

P .-P. Durastanti: elvelyn@club-internet.fr

Groupe des Fauconniers Gris: ggf@netultra.net

Liste de diffusion sur Greyhawk: oerth@netultra.net

Liste de diffusion sur la SF francophone: sffranco@physics.utoronto.ca

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Giant Troubles, PS GH Revisionism

 From: Otto Zequeira [OTETA@AOL.COM]

Sent: unday, September 20, 1998 10:05 PM

To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Subject: [GREYTALK] Giant Troubles, PS GH Revisionism

The Giant Troubles

On Sun, 13 Sep 1998 12:11 :34 -0500, Vashnaar Q Mithruin <vashnaar@RR1 .NET> asked, "I need to nail down he month and year that the Giants and Humanoids invaded Sterich and Geoff. I figure Susebb 583-Fireseek 584. Any other ideas or suggestions would be helpful. I know there are those of you that thrive on placing events and dates."

I wrote down Goodmonth of CY 583, but I can't begin to tell you why right now because I don't remember.

"Are there any modules, post invasion of that area, that i might be able to get ahold of??"

GDQ1-7 works fine here, due to contradictory placement of the modules in the timeline.

PS GH revisionism

On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:05:26 -0400, Ubiquitous <weberm@POLARIS.NET> wrote,"« One might also add in the silliness about certain oerthly powers that appeared in On Hallowed ground. » Oh yeah, that too ... "

What's the word on this? I seem to have missed the news. Was this the stuff about WoGH dieties being dead, or GH dying?

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Suloise Conundrum

 From: ACERERAK@aol.com

Sent: Thursday, September 10, 1998 8:29 PM

To: greyhawk@MPGN.COM

Subject: [GREYHAWK] - Re: The Suloise Conundrum

<< ... But doesn't their calendar predate that of the Elves?»

Yes, there is approximately a 1,000 year difference between the Olven calendar and the Suel calender. In the year 576 CY (Common Year), it was 6091 SD (Suel Dominion), 5038 OC (Olven Calendar), 3235 BH (Baklunish Hegira), 2726 FT (Flan Tracking), 1220 OR (Oeridan Reckoning). [I'm doing this from memory, so please forgive me if I am off slightly on the names]

<< What sort of picture does everyone else have of the old Suel Dominion? »

Similar to the Roman Empire in structure. Fantastic cities filled with bizarre sights (as compared to "today"). A center of commerce with merchants from all over the world. Terraforming on a massive scale, with the help of magic.

The further away from the capital one gets the less "magical" things become. Walk down the capital city street and you might see a fountain that spews water from thin air, but get out to the fringes and all you see are forts.

Griffon riders would not be uncommon. Bizarre monsters used for manual labor, as well as slaves consisting of humanoids, demi-humans, and non-Suel. A widely segregated city structure - pure Suel in one area, everyone else in another. There may be a caste system which takes "citizenship" into account, and is a goal often strived for. Corruption is rampant within the government and bribery is a way of life. Business is booming, and the imperial coinage is very different from anything seen today. Flying ships land in the port and bring wares from off planet.

We know for sure there is a civil war of sorts going on within the Empire, not to mention an external war with a powerful enemy. Of course, the external war only lasted 63 years, having begane in 5061 SD and ended in 5094 SD. Hmmm, the Scarlet Brotherhood was formed in 5091 SD. I wonder if they had anything to do with it?

<< Post-war Pro-Aerdy Oeridian propaganda paints a very unpleasant picture of them.>>

I tend to think the survivors were the creme de la creme of Lawful Evil arrogant aristocrats and various Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic Evil warrior types who turned to pillaging after their empire was left in ruins. The Suel Basin was most likely filled with "average" people just as the Flanaess is, consisting of farmers. miners, and merchants.

I imagine a lot of monsters were made extinct in the Suel Basin for the safety of its citizens by the government, "Another family of Umber Hulks attacked a village? Sergeant take a battalion and wipe out the whole herd. I'm tired of these interruptions by local fauna!" The Suel Basin was likely a safe place to live in until, well, the untimely end.

<< That is another consideration. How biased was Pluffet Smedger? »

He didn't exist. For all intents and purposes, he was Gary Gygax. However, should we decide to write in a bias to be clever, this seems unlikely. Smedger did not write 99% of the Greyhawk account, he merely created glossographies and compiled the whole into an encyclopedia, and then in turn created D&D to "aid his study". The "Savant-Sage" wrote the account, and it is his original bias that may need examining.

The Savant-Sage lived in Greyhawk city during Oerth's "Epoch of Magic", whatever that is. He compiled an epic 7-volume work called, "Catalogue of the Land Flanaess ... ", but only the third volume survives: "A Guide to the World of Greyhawk". When the Savant-Sage died the work disappeared, but turned up vears later in an lllithid lair in the Rift Canyon. This copy was brought to Rel Mord where it was examined by Pluffet Smedger the Elder, a historian and scholar. Smedger did add some recent or missing information, but by and large the work is the enigmatic Savant-Sage.

~Randy

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Timelines, GDQ and ToEE

 From: Keith Horsfield <afn09454@AFN.ORG>

To: ("GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu")

Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 1:44 PM

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Timelines, GDQ and ToEE

Otto Zequeira wrote:

>Timelines

> T1-4 says that Lolth received a sharp check to her plans, and consequently grew interested in the ToEE. On the flip side, GDQ1-7, which is the 'sharp check' that the module mentions, is placed after the ToEE in the series.

I only own the individual modules of the GDQ series. These modules were written previously in Real Time to T1-4. The inconsistency only comes into play when a DM desires to run a single party through a 'classic campaign' which many consider to be T1-4, A1-4 and then GDQ1-7 with some of the S modules thrown in.

As to the timeline of the GDQ series, I've always placed them prior to 576 CY due to being referenced in the 1980 World of Greyhawk Gazetteer. The Village of Hommlet is also mentioned in the Gazetteer which meshes with the fact that the Battle of Emridy Meadows took place in 569 CY.

>This solution allows the GDQ1-7 to be tied with the Greyhawk Wars invasion of Geoff and Sterich, which is so strikingly similar to the module. I think that Cook may have had this in mind when he wrote "Greyhawk Wars". He is one of the contributing writers to GDQ1-7 after all. This would need confirmation, though.

I think the remnants of the GDQ series was the basis for what happened in Geoff and Sterich, but I believe this was just Lolth through the giants reasserting her power once the joint endeavor at ToEE fails.

>Also, the World of Greyhawk Gazetteer places the Battle of Emridy Meadows at 569 CY, and T1-4 says that for five years later, things were good in Hommlett, but that in the last year banditry has risen (5). This means that the start of the module is about 575-6, which the Gazetteer also says is the time of its own writing.

First, where does the Gazetter say this?

Second, I disagree with your start time for ToEE based on the following, all of which can be found on pg. 5 of ToEE. Starting with the base date of 569 CY for the Battle of Emridy Meadows

Last paragraph 1st column:

"For five years afterward, the village and the countryside have become richer and more prosperous then ever before."

In this paragraph is the mention of the troll and how it was killed by some adventurers. After that adventurers continue to come but find nothing.

1st full paragraph, 2nd column:

"-- and Hommlet continued its quiet existence for four years more."

The beginning of this paragraph states that adventurers have stopped coming to the area.

2nd full paragraph, 2nd column:

"But then, a year ago, the bandits began to ride the roads again ... From my reading of these 3 paragraphs there are 3 distinct periods after the Battle of Emridy Meadows for the village of Hommlet:

1) 5 years where adventurers continue to visit brought by wanderlust

2) 4 years where the village is left in peace

3) 1 year of rising banditry

Therefore, T1-4 is supposed to take place in 579 CY.

>Consequently, I find that Steve W. starts the GDQ series too early in his timeline by placing it on 566, and Ed Zeamba starts T1-4 too late by placing it on 580.

Actually, I tend to agree with these dates. However, there is one other module, WG8, that assumes T1-4 takes place in or prior to 576 CY. Then again, I think the official date of 576 CY for WG8 to be far too early in the timeline. WG8 is supposed to take place 1,000 years after the founding of the Scarlet Brotherhood, which is given as 5091 SD. However, in the Verbobonc section, the author places the module 'a couple of years' after the completion of the castle in Hommlet. IMO, this module should be placed around 581 CY based on the latter. The date given in the Scarlet Masque is based on a prophecy of what is supposed to happen, not what already has happen. How many prophecies occur when they are supposed to? At least IMC, this one came about 5 years after it was supposed to.

Keith Horsfield

Member Team OS/2

"To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

E-mail: afn09454@afn.org

Home page: http://www.afn.org/~afn09454/

Iuz's Imprisonment Date

Chronological Connundrums: Iuz's Imprisonment Date(s)?!

From: Chris Anderson <caa@unify.com>

Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:44:05 

In my campaign, I have dated Iuz's imprisonment to 505. Your suggestion is as good as any other as to the differences in the official sources.

As far as your other questions, I have used:

455: Iggwilv discovers Caverns of Tsojcanth

460: lggwilv first summons and binds Graz'zt

461: Birth of luz

473-483: Iggwilv rules Perrenland

475-479: Rise of luz amongst petty bandits

479: Land of luz conquered by Iuz

483: Imprisonment of lggwilv, banishment of Graz'zt from PMP

505: Imprisonment of luz by Zagyg

The key date here is 483 being the banishment of lggwilv. I used that because I wanted Graz'zt to be able to be summoned to the PMP in 584 (101 years of imprisonment). The other key date is the birth of luz in 461. I used that because it allows him to be 14 years old when he begins his rise to power in the land ofluz, and 18 years old when he conquers it.

Chris

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Jason Verbitsky [SMTP:N@bc.sympatico.ca]

> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 1998 12:12 PM

> To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu

> Subject: [GREYTALK] Chronological Connundrums: Iuz's Imprisonment

> Date(s)?!

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Chronological Connundrums: luz's Imprisonment Date(s)?!

> -------------------------------------------------------

> When was Iuz imprisoned?

>

> Unfortunately, the published 'professional'/official sources are not very  helpful or, for that matter, clear (nice editing and proofreading!;):

>

> "luz's dissapearance in 503 CY was met with a sigh of relief ... Iuz reappeared some sixty-seven years later," (_Marklands_p.3)  (1993: Carl Sargent, Mark Shipley, Karen S. Boomgarden)

 > "the banishment of Iuz, generally dated to 505 CY. ... Sixty-five years of banishment" (_Iuz the Evil_ p.3) (1993: Carl Sargent, Lisa Stevens)

> "luz disappeared in 505 CY, imprisoned beneath the towers of Castle Greyhawk" (_FtA __ AoF p.5) (1992: Carl Sargent, Anne Brown, Michelle Carter)

> "507 Iuz imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk" (_FtA Reference Card # 1) (1992: Carl Sargent, Anne Brown, Michelle Carter, et al.?)

>

> So what are we to make of this mess that the editors and proofreaders *should* have caught? If canon is what is published by TSR, then we are stuck with it so some creative interpretation is in order (yes, yes, I know we can ignore whatever we want) so that the new Greyhawk can be consistent with the previous published sources but still actually make some sense!

>

> My, albeit amateur, suggestion is: to have Iuz be last seen in public in Molag in 503CY; but have Iuz actually imprisoned in 505 CY; and have the knowledge of his imprisonment ( or at least the public declaration in his former empire that he was actually missing [if not imprisoned]) occur in 507CY (when it was accepted that he was not merely testing his servants, but rather that he was indeed gone). Well, that's what I'm going with until/unless I hear a better suggestion. Anybody got one?

>

> One might well ask, why am I'm even bothering with this? Well, as I said before in my "Red Death Plague" message (Dec '97), this period is very important to the historical context of the Rise of the Homed Society in the early 500s CY because they come into a power vacuum created by Iuz's absence so the dating is fairly relevant to my _History of the Homed Society_ project.

>

> OR, maybe I just missed that errata sheet? If so, would some one be so kind as to forward it to me?

>*************

> His Dread and Awful Presence,

> Jason Verbitsky

> N@bc.sympatico.ca

> http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/N/HS.HTM

>

> P.S. It is passages such as those quoted above which the proper care should be taken to aviod in the Greyhawk revival -- I'm going to trust that the new TSR cares enough about Greyhawk to take the time; everything that I've seen so far points to a change (like Roger actually running several things by GreyTalk. The moral? If they would have done this with the Wars/ Ashes many problems could have easily been avoided ... )

Dead Man's Cove review

 From: Marc Tizoc Gonzalez [mtizoc@SFSU.EDU]

Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 11 :19 PM

To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Subject: [GREYTALK] Review: AEG: Dead Mans Cove

DMC is designed for character levels four to six, and the cover art (along with the title) suggest accurately the theme of the adventures. As the back cover text states, "Cutthroats and cannons!" Because of my interest in the Pomarj and trade on the Azure Sea, piracy is what prompted me to purchase DMC. However, as the quote indicates, there are aspects of the published adventure that do not mesh well with Greyhawk.

Although it is not a major point of the adventure, cannons and bombs aren't organically based in the Flanaess, so these aspects of the adventure booster should be removed, replaced, or otherwise confronted. As past threads on Greytalk have demonstrated, there are myriad ideas on how to represent sea travel and battle on (and under) the Azure Sea. I direct interested people to the relevant threads. (Use the Archives!)

Having stated a reservation about DMC, let me note my belief that the plot hook and backstory are relatively strong. I find the introductory boxed text to be well written for the most part. Certainly it does a good job given the constraints of space. However, the adventure booster fails regarding the travel required to arrive at the site of adventure. While this is understandable given the aforementioned constraint of space, it means that DMs must do more work.

Before, I suggest some ways to bring DMC into the Flanaess, I want to note three other reservations. I do this because I believe that the adventure booster is good overall. These critiques indicate where I believe it could have been excellent. First, the map is of poor quality. While multiple maps are provided of the locations that need mapping, the maps aren't ready for immediate tactical play. Instead they present important spatial relationships, but scale is missing, which may be even more important in 3e than previous editions. Second, the opposition is too generic; there is almost no differentiation. Basically the PCs are pitted a hundred level three Warriors (although the NPC class is only implied - another flaw)! This is unfortunate and indicates a mediocre comprehension of 3e's combat, which is structured for using fewer combatants than previous editions. Third (and perhaps of especial interest to Greyhawkers), the new monster comes close to being a rip off of Nerull's Drowned Ones. (Or, if that connection is denied, then the monster is basically just a normal zombie.)

My previous critiques should not be taken to indicate that I don't believe DMC to be useful for gaming in Greyhawk. The plot is ripe for enmeshment in the machinations of the southern Flanaess, and the booster may serve to guide DMs in taking on the somewhat daunting arena represented by post-FtA's Azure Sea. While some DMs may be using Slavers to explore the Pomarj, and LGH bases campaigns out of multiple areas of the southern Flanaess, the domination of the Azure Sea by the Scarlet Brotherhood dampens typical adventuring. In other words, post-FtA adventuring on the Azure Sea must contend with the SB, which seems to homogenize a previously interesting and diverse region.

Beginning in the west, the former Hold of the Sea Princes and the Horn of the Amedio Jungle represent ideal locations for DMC. Pre-FtA, Monmurg, Port Toli, and the islands are fine bases for Baldrick Mornstar. The pirates could be other Seolders based away from one of the Amedio forts, or the hideout might actually be one of these forts. Post-FtA, Gradsul provides a better location than Gryrax, but the capital of the Principality of Ulek might work. In this case, Mornstar's enemies might be competing merchants, but it might be fun to connect them to the SB. Perhaps Korvahl is an agent of the SB, or maybe he is allied with the renegade faction, which once ruled the now chaotic parts of the Hold? Korvahl might also be based in Scant, Blue or even Highport, if a DM wanted to direct later adventures to these cities. Before moving far to the east, I want to note that a pre-FtA adventure might be based in Narisban (of the Olman Isles). Perhaps the adventure represents some of the pre-Wars competition between the Sea Princes and the agents of Shar?

Although I posited some Flanaess connections in the west of the Azure Sea, the eastern lands seem to provide a better fit. Pre-Wars, Scant, Irongate, and Naerie all provide fine bases for Mornstar, and the pirate base can be set within the Headlands, Iron Hills, or beyond the Menowood (respectively). While the time to travel therein wouldn't take the two weeks suggested in DMC, the overland journey could provide an interesting adventure in itself. In the Headlands, there would be native Flan hillsmen to deal with for safe (or guided?) passage. Either the Headlands, Iron Hills, or the Hollow Highlands could provide a dwur or noniz encounter. Likewise the hills provide a fine site for combat with humanoids. Given the suggested level for the adventure booster, I think that ogres would be ideal, and those encountered might be from a tribe that roams the Hollow Highlands. Treasure found on the ogres could provide clues that lead to adventure in Sunndi or perhaps into the Vast Swamp. At the border of the Menowood, wolves or worgs should be encountered. An encounter with a ranger, druid, or bard could prelude encounters with wolves to make the players fear lycanthropy. In the hills southeast of Menowood, the pirate base could be used as is, or some connections to Wastri or the SB could be formulated. Perhaps there are some humanoids amongst the pirates like xvarts or norkers? Again, Korvahl could be an agent of the SB. Pre-Wars, the adventure booster could even lead the heroes to sail for Kro Terlep. Perhaps these are the heroes described in tSB as responsible for the destruction of the weeping hexagram?

Post-Wars, Scant is out  of the picture, but Irongate and (later) Naerie might still be useable. In this era, the pirates are almost certainly Mornstar (and hence the heroes) should be aware of this probability.

There are many possible sites on the east coast of the Flanaess too for DMC. From Roland to Pontylver and perhaps even Dullstrand or a city of the Lordship of the Isles - all of these cities could be Mornstar's home city. Roland, Ounsty, and Rel Astra provide the nearby coast of the Lone Heath as a likely place for the pirate cove. In any era, the pirates might actually be goodly aligned freedom fighters. Mornstar could be either neutral or evil; his name could be a title of the priesthood of Hextor (per the OJ article). For Pontylver and Dullstrand, the pirate cove could be somewhere in the coast of the Hestmark Highlands. Overland travel herein would be challenging, and the terrain accords with what is presented in DMC. Finally, pre-Wars, the adventure booster could be set so that either Duxchan or Sulward are the start. The pirate cove could be on another island, or it might be on the same island as the city (though requiring several days of overland travel). Post-Wars, the pirates could be loyal to the Iron League's Lordship of the Isles and fighting against a SB allied Mornstar. Korvahl could be a patron from Rel Astra or Pontylver.

Finally, after deciding a scale for the maps, consider specifying the opposition to include warriors, rogues, fighters, and even supporting clerics (of chaotic neutral, CE, or NE alignments). Also contend with the returning pirate ship. As it stands, the PCs must find certain information to nullify the pirates on the returning ship. PCs should also be able to obtain this information by roleplaying with captured pirates. Consider detailing an NPC for this role, and have him or her turn up as a pirate that survives a combat. If the PCs do cause the ship to crash, then consider detailing some of the survivors. Perhaps a replacement PC could be found either amongst the survivors or as a prisoner? If the ship is destroyed, then the PCs still need to return overland. If they have prisoners, then the return trip should be even more challenging, as prisoners attempt to escape and flee or escape and murder a PC. Some prisoners may try to convince the PCs of their sad life story. An NPC might have been shanghaied and want to return to his or her home port. The PCs might release a SB agent that the pirates captured or a renegade priest (of a variety of gods - Pholtus near the Great Kingdom, the Earth Dragon in the western lands, Vecna anywhere, Wastri near the Vast Swamp, etc.).

If you're interested in piracy, sea based adventures, or the southern Flanaess, then consider using DMC. It should also be said that the adventure booster might be used to the north, near Grendep Bay, or perhaps to the far West on the coasts of the Dramidj Ocean or Gulf of Ghayar!