RUMUR! Meet the New Hawk - WoG to Restart/Reimagine in 4e

[greytalk] RUMUR! Meet the New Hawk - WoG to Restart/Reimagine in 4e
Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:42 PM
From: "Wade Nolen"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Well, you know life has little ironies, sometimes.

It’s kind of funny to me how fast and how far a rumor can spread. In this case, how long a rumor can persist, and how it can come full circle. Maybe it’s an indicator of how long I’ve been scouring the Canonfire forums, or how big of a geek that I really am that I immediately recognized the actual text of this little gem. But, I’ve seen it several times in the past year or so, and I immediately recognized it.

A year and a season ago, in late Summer of last year (August ’08), a fella that many of us know and love, Glen Vincent Dammerung, started a thread on “Canonfire!” and was discussing his ideas of what he thought would happen if they rebooted the GH franchise. Mind you, this was far before the announcement or speculation of an old setting was being revived, or that it would be Dark Sun. At any rate, GVD started the thread, although it has since been taken to great extremes, and apparently has reached Germany is being taken not only out of context, but also far too seriously. It was just GVD putting out what he thought was cool, fun, and what they ought to do. A good read, but nothing even resembling authoritative. But, such is the nature of rumors.

The greatest part is that here it is 15 months later, and it’s come back to us!!

Signature
Wade K. Nolen
aka "Icarus "

I'm off to gallivant among the clouds!
" ... and he did fly, and he was seen on the wings of the wind."

From: Tom Roberts [mailto:tempestblindam@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:43 PM
To: greytalk@canonfire.com
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Solution to the "Canon" vs. Otherwise Problem - CORRECTION

On that note, I thought this rumor making the rounds might be of interest to the list.

http://forum.dnd-gate.de/index.php?topic=20495.0;wap2

Anyone care to comment?

Tom Roberts
If women are so much smarter than men, why do they keep dating us?

> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:26:26 -0700
> From: breeyark@gmail.com
> To: greytalk@canonfire.com
> Subject: Re: [greytalk] Solution to the "Canon" vs. Otherwise Problem - CORRECTION
>
> > On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 21:01 -0500, Tracy Johnson wrote:
> >> The solution to "Canon" versus anything else may be rather simple.
>
> -Details snipped for brevity-
>
> I think the real answer is even more simple, canon is whatever the DM
> and players agree it is. Given the -not currently supported- nature of
> the setting, it really doesn't matter at all beyond that.
>
> Now, if/when WOTC decides to do something with GH again, the matter of
> canon might be important again, but as Russ and Sam were noting, the
> precedent of the recent Greyhawk Ruins Expedition book doesn't bode
> well for LG derived material, including the bits released to the
> general public on the wizards.com/greyhawk site (that's a handy
> shortcut url to the LG official site, which is archived for posterity
> (for now at least).
>
> In fact, I don't see much beyond LGG and perhaps EGHR itself being
> held as recent canon by WOTC in the future, simply because the legal
> ownership of the early LG era stuff is muddy (Russ, Sam or other LG
> staff alumni can probably shed more light on the details) and the
> derivative nature of later LG stuff (following up on info in early LG
> stuff for example) might make WOTC shy away from using any of it.
>
>
> --
> Bree-yark, baby!
>
> Rich,
> breeyark@gmail.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit the Greytalk Web Forum at http://www.canonfire.com/forum/
> Or Search the Archives: http://www.greycitadel.com/greycitadel/greytalk.nsf
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When did Keoland Begin? and a Keoish Dating System

Date: Sun, 02 Jan 00 11:37AM PST
From: Jason Verbitsky Add To Address Book Add To To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] When did Keoland Begin? and a Keoish Dating System

More Details

When did Keoland begin? According to 'canon', we know this much for
certain:

"Keoland was the first major kingdom to be established in Flanaess, the Oeridians and Suloise tribes mingling and joining to build a tolerant and prosperous realm which nominally included many and varied demi-human groups as well."
(World of Greyhawk Guide p.27)

But exactly when? As the first, it is clearly before the Founding of the Great Oeridian Kingdom of Aerdy in -217 CY, 428 OR, 5299 SD. But as it was formed, in part, by Suloise tribes, it would have to be after the Suloise migrations began in -447 CY, 198, 5069 SD. (World of Greyhawk Guide p.9)

CY OR SD Event
-- -- -- -----

-447 198 5069 Suloise migrations begin
} 25 Years
-422 223 5094 Rain of Colorless Fire
} 205 Years

-217 428 5299 Founding of the Great Oeridian Kingdom of Aerdy

So, then, the period in which the Kingdom of Keoland could be founded in can be narrowed down to some 230 years.

It might have been even before the infamous Rain of Colourless fire fell in -422 CY, 223 OR, 5094 SD (World of Greyhawk Guide p.9). But it seems probable that it was later:

"For two centuries the Oerid and Suel battled each other and the fragmenting humanoid hordes for possession of the central area of the Flanaess, ... In a few places the two racial stocks intermixed - notably the Sheldomar Valley where, except for the Hold of the Sea Princes, the peoples of the Kingdom of Keoland,
... are mixed Oerid-Suel stock. ... the [Suel] Houses of Rhola and Neheli - late migrants who settled and held the Sheldomar"
(World of Greyhawk Guide p.8)

This, of course, refers to the time after the Rain of Colourless Fire and before founding of Aerdy. Here the period of *two hundred years* is very significant as it gives us some idea of how long after the migrations began the Kingdom of Keoland was actually established.

Also, the fact that the Rhola and Neheli were late migrants could indicate that the starting date for these two centuries is a bit later. However, this does not necessarily follow as the Suloise and Oeridians could well have been battling before these later Suel tribes migrated.

Though it seems obvious, for completeness sake, I should state this nonetheless: when they say "two centuries" it doesn't necessarily mean 200 years exactly, it is more like two hundred and some odd years, or even 'about two hundred years' (which could even mean almost, if taken loosely).

So what does all of this give us for a window in which to place the founding?

CY OR SD Event
-- -- -- -----

-447 198 5069 Suloise migrations begin
} 25 Years
-422 223 5094 Rain of Colorless Fire
} 205 Years
-247 398 5269 Approximate end of Suel-Oerid Battles

? ? ? Founding of Keoland } 30 Years

-217 428 5299 Founding of the Great Oeridian Kingdom of Aerdy

This would narrow it down to a 30 year period -- if one wants to have the Kingdom of Keoland founded after the battles have ended. Perhaps founded as a way of making peace between the various warring tribes who were sick of fighting and dying.

Alternately, the Kingdom of Keoland instead may well have been founded before the Oerid-Suel battles had ended and taken part in them (fighting various Oerid and/or Suel tribes/nations). In which case the 230 year window is still the best 'canon' narrowing.

Thus the question arises * do we want to have the Kingdom of Keoland founded in the beginning, middle, or end of this warring period of the Suloise and Oeridian tribes? *

Each of these could work for the Living Greyhawk campaign. But we should reach a consensus and decide upon one and then narrow it down to a specific year.

Many of us have already set our own 'unofficial' and 'uncannonical' dates for Keoland's founding in fans' campaigns:

CY OR SD Founding in the Campaign of or Canon Events
-- -- -- -------------------------------------------

-519 125 4996 Chris Jarvis

-447 198 5069 Suloise migrations begin

-422 223 5094 Rain of Colorless Fire

-316 329 5200 Patrick Franke's Keoish Timeline

-268 377 5248 Scott Rennie's Sheldomar Timeline

-247 398 5269 Approximate end of Suel-Oerid Battles

-217 428 5299 Founding of the Great Oeridian Kingdom of Aerdy

-200 445 5316 Kirt Wackford's Geopolitical History of Keoland
(says 'by' this time but gives no exact date)

192 836 5707 Issak Haywood's Empire of Keoland

In choosing this specific year, I think that it would be quite useful for it to be one that is easy to calculate based off of the CY calendar (and if possible other dating systems as well) so that conversion is as simple and painless as possible -- thus a number that works out as evenly as possible should be employed.

For your reference, here is how years are converted to/from 3 of the various dating systems used in the World of Greyhawk setting:

-CY -> SD +5516
CY -> SD +5515

-CY -> OR + 645
CY -> OR + 644

OR -> SD +4871

Events could be calculated from the founding of the Kingdom of Keoland (such as the Romans used for from the founding of Rome) and a new dating system could be established -- one that relies not upon the Aerdian system of the Great Kingdom which came after Keoland itself was founded. What calendar would have the Keolanders themselves used before the Great Kingdom's influence spread so far and wide? Would they not have kept it? Even if they later adopted the Aerdian method they must
have used something until then! It is logical (although by no means certain) that the Suel and Oeridians would have reached some sort of comprise rather than using one or the other, or both, of their own dating systems. I would call this new dating system the "Keoish Chronology" and abbreviate it as "KC".

With all of the above in mind as a framework, let us discuss exactly when Keoland should be founded (in a manner that is the most consistent with established Greyhawk canon) and if a KC dating system should be employed from that point in time.

Jason
>:)

* * * * * * * * * * * * *
His Dread and Awful Presence,
Jason Verbitsky
hierax@home.com
http://hierax.com/greyhawk/

Southern Border of Keoland, a Chronology (576-591 CY)

Date: Sun, 02 Jan 00 00:44AM PST
From: Jason Verbitsky Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] Southern Border of Keoland, a Chronology (576-591 CY)

Scott Rennie wrote:
>
> Frank Timar wrote:
>
> < > breading experiments can enhance the Cthulu flavor proposed for this region.>>
>
> I think Jason Verbitsky once also pointed out to me that my map doesn't extend far enough west to cover Saltmarsh.
>
>Speaking of Saltmarsh, we need an official story of how events played out in that module series. Saltmarsh and nearby communities will be important in suplying Westkeep.>>
>
> Cue Jason... ;-)

Yes, O' great master, you summoned me? I hear and obey. ;)

I'll answer the second question first: the result of the Saltmarsh Series of Modules (U1-U3) is that the Sahuagin were defeated and driven from the Lizard Men's lair (a raid which, BTW, is not dissimilar to the Raid on Innsmouth -- coincidence? ...) [see U3 page 36]

Now the first question, OTOH, is a bit more complicated and requires a longer answer:

-----------------------
Southern Border History
-----------------------

CHRONOLOGY OF

Date Events Occurring / South Keoland Occupied By
---- --------------------------------------------

576 Needfest (New Years)
Keoland (Start of Classic Greyhawk Campaign)

584 Fireseek (1st month)
Treaty of Niole Dra with Furyondy against Iuz

584 Readying (2nd month)
Allied armies march to aid Furyondy against Iuz

584 Goodmonth (8th month)
Scarlet Brotherhood Invades SP & Southern Keoland

584 Harvester (9th month)
Scarlet Brotherhood calls for peace, Council of Greyhawk convened

585 Readying (2nd month)
Keoish, Gran March, Ulek armies march forth from Flen to liberate the giant-held Earldom of Sterich.

585 Coldeven (3rd month)
Treaty of Greyhawk is finally signed Keoish Southern Border fixed where armies were at
the time of signing.

585 Coldeven (3rd month)
Scarlet Brotherhood holds Southern Keoland (Start of Ashes Campaign)

586 Coldeven
Flight of the Fiends

586 Patchwall (4th month)
Furyondy/Veluna attack Iuz breaking the Treaty of Greyhawk

586 Patchwall (4th month)
earliest possible date Keoish liberation efforts could begin

588 Coldeven (3rd month)
last settlement of Sterich liberated from Giants

589 Summer
Revolts sweep through the Hold of the Sea Princes
Probable that Keoish have begun liberation efforts

590 Early in the year
Keoish armies control Southern Keoland
Keoland captures Westkeep in the Hold of the Sea Princes

591 Needfest (New Years)
Keoland's Southern border reaches to the Hools and beyond (Start of Living Greyhawk Campaign)

COMMENTARY AND EXPLANATION

In 576 CY the town of Saltmarsh, and thus the Southern region between the Dreadwood and the Hool Marshes, is firmly in the Kingdom of Keoland. According to the module U1, THE SINISTER SECRET OF SALTMARSH: "...Saltmarsh is placed in the southernmost part of Keoland, at the western edge of hex U4/123." (1981, p.3). However, the national maps in the 1983 GUIDE TO THE WORLD OF GREYHAWK are less conclusive as the area between the Dread Wood and the Hool Marshes is somewhat of a no-man's land (p.44-45). But as the maps don't say that it isn't (any more than they say that it is) and the module explicitly states that it is, IMNSHO, it is.

In 584 CY, during the Summer/Goodmonth, during the so-called 'Greyhawk Wars' after the Scarlet Brotherhood (SB) conquered the Hold of the Sea Princes (SP) they then proceeded to invade southern Keoland and blockade Gradsul (GW p.15, 23-24).

By 585 CY's "cold, harsh spring", the border between Keoland and the SB/SP is in the middle of the Dreadwood -- right from the Javan River to the Azure Sea (as can be seen on the map on the inside cover _FtA:AotF_, the date of which is stated in the text on page 9).

Here it is worth noting that the it could well have taken the Scarlet Brotherhood's forces up until Spring/Coldeven (3rd Month) of 585 to achieve the border depicted on this map. Many would say that this border would have been achieved by Summer-Fall/Harvester (9th Month) 584, but that seems rather quick for my taste. The dating methodology used by TSR for this period is seriously flawed as the date of the FtA is supposed to be the "Year of Peace" after the Treaty of Greyhawk was signed, and that didn't really happen until Spring/Coldeven (3rd Month) of 585! (GW p.24 vs GH:PG p.11, GH:tAB 5, 19, 62). So this FtA map could either refer to Summer-Fall/Harvester (9th Month) 585 or Coldeven 586.

One really should be responsible and go with the date of the earlier publication and make it 586. (BTW, FWIW, Roger Moore himself has agreed with and admitted to me that the date that TSR uses for the Treaty of Greyhawk is in error, but that AFAHK it will be used in future Greyhawk products nonetheless -- I opt to use the correct date regardless of TSR's choice).

Thus, from sometime between Goodmonth (8th month) of 584 and Coldeven (3rd month) of 585 a bloody struggle ensued between the forces of the Scarlet Brotherhood and Keoland for the area of the Dreadwood to the Hool Marshes. The two sides fought each other to a standstill and in Coldeven 585 with the signing of the Treaty of Greyhawk the southern border of Keoland became fixed midway through the Dreadwood. IMNSHO, this up to 7 month war seems a bit better, and more realistic, than having the SB deliver ultimatums, sail ships in and conquer both the SP and southern Keoland all in a single month.

So in Coldeven of 585 CY the Southern border of Keoland was certainly amidst the Dreadwood (as depicted on the FtA map); However, at some point after Coldeven 586 CY, and before the end of 590, the Keoish could have taken the offensive and liberated Saltmarsh and the rest of Southern Keoland. This is possible because in Coldeven and Planting (4th Month) of 586 Furyondy and Veluna were the first nations to cast aside the Treaty of Greyhawk when they invoked the famous 'Flight of Fiends' and attacked Iuz (GH:tAB 19-21, 31, GH:PG 11-12).

Strictly speaking, however, this would require a SB/SP withdrawal rather than a Keoish offensive as Furyondy-Veluna were the first to break the PACT OF GREYHAWK on the 1st of Patchwall 586. But the Keoish with ties to Furyondy-Veluna may have had some advanced warning of the imminent dissolution of the Pact/Treaty so that they could prepare their offensive better than the SB/SP could their defences, and strike early in the month Patchwall (or soon after) to reclaim the civilized portions of the lost Hool Marches (the Keoish Southlands).

In the summer of 589 CY, revolts swept through the Sea Princes domain shaking the hold that the Scarlet Brotherhood had on that nation (Gh:tAB p.32). If Keoland hadn't already moved to liberate southern Keoland, following Furyondy/Veluna's lead, it is probable that this revolt would be the perfect opportunity to do so. If they already had begun such efforts, the revolts would aid the Keoish by seriously distracting the Scarlet armies as to which threat to deal with -- the Keoish or the Sea Princes, and as the revolt is behind the their own lines opening a second front for the war it is probable that they'd devote more effort to suppressing the revolt than fighting the Keolanders.

In 590 CY, Keoland takes the stronghold Westkeep on the other side of the Hool Marshes, across the Javan River (GH;tAB p.32). Here although it is possible that they take Westkeep before liberating all of Southern Keoland, I think that it is highly unlikely as the resources such an expedition would require would be put to better use freeing Keolanders from their Scarlet yoke. Moreover, the Scarlet Brothers would likely have much reduced forces as they still have to deal with the 589 revolt in the Hold of the Sea Princes. With these southern Keolanders freed the Keoish armies swelled as some joined their ranks in vengeance, and the Scarlet occupational forces were seriously diminished. This way the taking of Westkeep after the liberation of Southern Keoland makes more sense, to me at least, than liberating it after taking Westkeep.

Exactly how long this liberation of Southern Keoland would take, as with how long it took to conquer in the first place, is an open matter. Again I prefer to have both the conquest and liberation to take a longer rather than a shorter period of time and thus make for a more epic struggle between Great Powers. But, despite my opinion on this, the evidence does not preclude one or the other, or both, from being lighting attacks with quick results. I think that 'officially' it should be stated that during these nebulous periods that the battle raged back and forth and the individual DMs can then decide exactly where was occupied when according to what is best for their story at the time. But if this approach is taken in the Living Greyhawk Campaign (or any other official form) it should be done with a most cautious eye on the consequences so that once a particular location's occupation during a certain time is stated in a future module or sourcebook, all subsequent works dealing with the area of southern Keoland be forced to take this into account. However, if this flexibility is too much because of WotC's suggested lower standards of fact-checking for Greyhawk writers, then these nebulous periods should be be provided with a single unambiguous chronology that is simple enough to grasp for even the laziest designer -- thus favouring a quick conquest and liberation in order to minimize the opportunities for any further corruptions and convolutions of the 'official' or 'canon' Greyhawk history. I realize that this sort of detail won't matter to the vast majority of players and/or DMs but for Greyhawk purists, like myself, it is an important consideration.

Regardless, in 591 when the Living Greyhawk campaign is to begin, Keoland's southern border once again stretches to the Hool Marshes and now reaches even beyond as the Keoish armies continue their imperial march...

FWIW, this is only my (unofficial) interpretation of when the Southern border of Keoland was where, YMMV. I hope that it is of some use to you, my fellow Greyhawk, and especially Keoland, fans. Gentle readers amongst you will forgive my inevitable errors in grammar and spelling, and I trust that you'll be kind enough to correct me on something that I may have misunderstood or not stately as clearly as I
should have, or add additional references that I have overlooked this evening. I will be considering this issue in more depth to determine the exact chronology, but I welcome any suggestions that you may have so that this chronology can be refined and improved both for my own campaign and for the Living Greyhawk effort.

P.S. For more information on the other events of the Greyhawk Wars involving Keoland see my message on the "Against the Giants: Combined Chronology". FYI, this message can be found in Morgan's Fantastic GreyTalk Archives:

http://24.112.96.246/Add/Greytalk.nsf/b44505cda4beea3285256664005e00fa/8525678a0009fae8852567d10025ca89?OpenDocument

I'll post this message to the Keoland group as it is particularly on topic for Keoish history. If I were to actually receive sufficient feedback, I could possibly be persuaded to revisit the issue to provide a complete Keoish chronology for the entire Greyhawk Wars somewhat earlier than I'd otherwise get around to it...

Jason
>:)

* * * * * * * * * * * * *
His Dread and Awful Presence,
Jason Verbitsky
hierax@home.com
http://hierax.com/greyhawk/

Future Timelines 3/3. LONG END [incomplete]

Date sent: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:09:00 -0400
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Jay Simpson
Subject: [GREYTALK] Future Timelines 3/3. LONG END
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

This is the last of them for now. I don't want to bog down the list too much. Lemme know what you guys think.

597 Iuz crosses the Yol River and begins a pitched invasion of the Pale. Wintershiven is quickly surrounded by Iuz s mixed humanoid armies, as well as a stronger contingent of Trolls, reputedly from the Troll Fens.

In Keoland, Generals Hazifax and Bagnell take and secure the Yeomanry. Geoff and Sterich are now securely under Keoland s flag, and now have sizable armies and noble leaders to defend them. Tavish V orders his two favorite generals to begin a plan for reclaiming the lost coast lands.

598 Gruznor s troops take and sack Marner in Ratik. After stripping the Ratik capitol of as much supplies as possible, the rest is burned. Most of Marner s citizenry is captured and taken back to the Bone March to be used for different purposes. The men are enslaved and sent to work in the mines at Bellport and Johnsport, while the women are used for breeding purposes. Each woman is blessed with four sets of half orcan offspring, then killed. All the children of Marner are forced into the wilds of the Timberway Forest, left to the elements.

599 General Bagnell begins entrenching men in the Torcs. The cleansing of this swamp is a hard and well earned campaign. Bagnell will find himself still fighting in the infernal marshlands some three years later. Meanwhile, General Hazifax leads his men south, over a small arm of the Hellfurnaces and secretly skirts around the Jerlea Bay. This is to be a long expedition as well.

600 As Wintershiven in the Theocracy of the Pale sees the end of its third year of siege, aid from the south arrives. A large contingent of troops arrive from Urnst and aid in the liberation of the Pale s capital city. The King of Urnst times the attack so that, even as his troops are helping the much decimated Wintershiven, a second yet stronger force descends on Redspan. Iuz suffers a stifling defeat. In Suns ebb of this year, Urnst frees Rift Crag of the Iuz occupation as well.

601-602 The refugees from Tusmit, and Ekbir, allied with forces from Zeif and cavalry from the Paynims and Ull sweep down on the Kettite army from what appears to be no where. The united armies lay siege to Ket s capital city of Lopolla and crush the Kettite army after an 18 month struggle. The Kettites receive reinforcements from their newly founded Perrenland Vassal state. The final battle is long and hard, and rages for the better part of 3 days. In the end the Allied Forces prove victorious, the Kettite scourge is no more.

601 General Hazifax and his men arrive at the first of many Scarlet Brotherhood strongholds on the edges of the Amedio Jungle. The Brotherhood, not expecting such an attack, had kept the stronghold severely undermanned, compared to the size of troops that Hazifax brought with him. Over the course of the next year, Hazifax and his men are able to seize three additional Brotherhood strongholds with barely a sound made. Hazifax is also able to capture all but one of the ships docked at each stronghold. From his base in the Amedio, Hazifax starts bargaining with the local tribes and launching an all out guerilla warfare on all Scarlet Brotherhood controlled lands in the Amedio, using local [Missing the rest of the pages]

Re: Greyhawk Grumbler

Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler
Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:07 PM
From: "Mark Carscadden"
To: "'greytalk'"

True, but IMO he would have at least implied printing presses existed somewhere - hey, it's not a big deal one way or the other for me, I just don't think it feels right.

----- Original Message -----
From: Vest III, Robert W
To: 'greytalk'
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I’m sure there are hundreds of things EGG didn’t bother mentioning simply because he didn’t feel such things necessary to play the game. After all, a printing press isn’t near as exciting as a city full of killer robots.

From: Mark Carscadden [mailto:markcarscadden@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:46 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I think a printing press is something that would be a better fit in the FR setting, IMO. Gygax would have certainly at least briefly mentioned something as significant as a printing press if it existed in his setting. But as always, that's the way it will be in MY Greyhawk campaign...

----- Original Message -----

From: Wade Nolen
To: 'greytalk'
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Insisting that the print run of the Grumbler is more than the population of the Free City of Greyhawk itself is the utmost sheer folly.

And beyond that … the “single guy” is doing the same thing in CoGH … no one said that these things are everywhere. No one said that there are more than just the Grumbler (although we know that there are two.) This is a localized thing, specific to Greyhawk City, and what’s more, there’s nothing (of which I am aware, other than the author’s post-script here) that it’s not wood-block printing, or something other than the “mechanized” stuff that you insist on. There were printing presses long before Industrialization or the Mechanized era.

Signature
Wade K. Nolen
aka "Icarus "
I'm off to gallivant among the clouds!
" ... and he did fly, and he was seen on the wings of the wind."

From: CJ MacLean [mailto:icar@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:57 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I'm not talking about a single guy with bits of clay producing 20 copies of something. I am talking about the level of mechanization society has to have for a press run of 5000-30,000 (or more).

From: Vest III, Robert W [mailto:rvest@ius.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:15 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

There is actually a canonical precedent for having printing presses in the Flanaess. See the Age of Worms backdrop article on Alhaster (Dungeon 131), which mentions an underground broadsheet in Alhaster called The Sinchaser Report.

Wayfarers Guide to the Teckla Republic

Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:03:05 EST
From: Issak Haywood
Subject: Wayfarers Guide to the Teckla Republic

Hi all-
Well with the impending doom of the world I thought that I would email a few more of my Wayfarers Guides out.
Have a great weekend and new year - and celebrate the last year of the 20th century. Were still a year off from the MM!

The Wayfarers Guide to the Teckla Republic

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Location:Northern most portion of the Empire of Keoland. The eastern border is the Lort River, while the Margom River and the Rushmoor's are the northern border.
Area:

Languages:Keoish and Olvish being the most common.

Coinage:Gold Bar (10gp), Emperor (1pp), Gold Duke (1gp), Juzai (1ep), Teckla (5sp), Crown (1sp), Noble (5cp), Copper Common (1cp).

Government Type:Constitutinal Dukedom. The Duke holds most of the power, with elected officials of each of the territory cities. The elected representatives are elected by the people of the city, and represent them in all matters concerning the town in dealings with the Duke.

Industries:Agriculture, Fishing, Trade, Military, Herding, Textiles (fine cloth, wool, etc..)

Description:The Teckla Republic is one of the wealthiest territories in the Empire. The Teckla Plains, the Republics heartland, produces enough grain to feed the territory twice over. Fish are bountiful on both the Lort and Margom Rivers. Teckla merchants have traded profitably with other nations and territories, both near and far since the end of the First Imperialist Age of Keoland. The past Greyhawk Wars and the humanoid invasions of Geoff and Sterich had slightly beggared the territory by both the cost of the wars and the influx of people, however, with the Liberation of Sterich, that damage has since been cleared. During those days, the Republic had retained its power through trade and diplomacy.
The former Lord Duke of the Republic, now Emperor Adon E' Keirion, had proposed and instituted the annual athletic competition, the first was hosted by Dragaera City, and now is hosted by each of the cities every year.
The Republic is a founding member of the San-Giti Defense League, helping to discourage the invasions by the giants of Geoff, and in bringing those interested in re-taking the Lost Lands of Geoff.

Notable Sites:The Teckla Republic has several cities founded on trade.
Dragaera City (pop. 46,000??) is eastern most, on the Lort River, and is strongly garrisoned against any military threat. The People's Palace (pop.??), located in the center of the Republic, is a safe community with many grain silos and produces much of the Republic's agriculture. Erythane is a city and castle that was finished in Coldeven CY 583. It is in the western portion of the Republic and guards against possible attacks from the humanoids of Geoff and Sterich. Deppas Fang (pop. ??), is the center of caravan activities to the Duchy of Pohotha, Sandy Home County, Northwest Plains Territory and Korio County. Margom lies in the middle of the northwest portion of ht e territory, and maintains contact and trade with the nation of Gran March. Nenko is an impressive example of Keoish architecture. The castles splendor makes the rest of the city look shabby (a testimony to the beauty of the castle, as this is one of the most magnificent cities in the world), and even with a population of 12,000, the city boasts a sophisticated sewer system and is kept relatively clean. Many of the public buildings are made of stone and have graceful fluted columns. Although the city of Pepperfield (pop.2,000) is beautiful, many foreigners find it dull. The Pepperfieldians do not approve of drinking, gambling, or most other recreations of that sort. Mer Chang is veritable city of tents and campfires currently with an unknown population.
On the northwestern border of the Republic lies a vast and broad Rushmoor Swamp, a dangerous wetland where bandits and monsters thrive.

Flora & Fauna:The Teckla Republic has many different types of creatures and monsters. Visitors to the open country may find encounters with herds of cattle, horses, sheep, goats and even buffalo in the typical plains. The swamp is home to crocodiles, giant lizards, lizardmen, bandits, and possibly stranger creatures as well.
Populations in the Axewood include bears, boars, centaurs, and dryads, as well as ogres, orcs, and a group of Forest Gnomes. People have spotted wild pigs, deer, hares, swarms of insects and the occasional jaguar, displacer beasts and of course snakes.
Crocodiles, human colonists, hydras giant leeches, lizardmen, orcs, purple worms and giant snakes are just some of the things that can be found in the Rushmoor's, and don't forget about the infamous Looming Fortress.

Issak
Keoland@aol.com
http://members.xoom.com/wogkeoland
RPGA Member Theocracy of the Pale

Re: Vecna/migrations/Aerdy/Keoland (was:Vecna/migrations/Keoland)

Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 03:20:41 -0500
From: Taras Cranden-Guarhoth
Subject: Re: Vecna/migrations/Aerdy/Keoland (was:Vecna/migrations/Keoland)

> Bias! Bias!

And you're just NOW noticing this? :)

> Mr. "I Love Aerdy" doesn't see as many meatsnmagicks for Keoland, yes?
It's because yer biased! The Valley of the Mage is *much* more mysterious and

I'd like to point out that it's an Aerdi who's ruling the Vale now. :P

> mighty than anything the decadent east has produced, and the stronghold of Vecna's empire witnessed things more potent and awful than ever the mild Vecna's empire was overrated. After all, if all those Suel managed to migrate so successfully through the area, it obviously wasn't that big and
powerful. :)

> ancestors of Tenha dreamt up. You don't think Celene, with all its ancient
> glamour, can hide their kingdom out of the sight of a rampaging horde of drug-starved Suloise or two? Keoland is the home of 90% of the surviving

No, I don't think that Celene can. After all, they were so scared of all those migrating Suel that they let the Keoish dominate them for hundreds of years. It took them that long to figure out that the migrations where over and kick out the Keoish. Which just happened to coincide with the Keoish Expansionistic Phase.

> treasures of the Suel Imperium, and the main destination for relics saved

This I have a lot of trouble beliving, since it was those Houses who had the most time to pack up their junk and run who didn't settle in Keoland. It was those who had the least time (ie: the Rhola and Neheli, the LATECOMERS to the migration game), and thus would have had the least treasures to bring with them. Odds are, most of the treasures ended up either in Oerid hoards, Urnst, or the Scarlet Brotherhood. Or completely lost in various dungeons.

> from the Ashen Desert. The fledgling Oerid outlander kingdoms were summarily
> crushed by the overwhelming might of the Suel public relations engines, their
> relics siezed at bargain basement prices. If the arch-tormenters of the

Yep. The Suel relics siezed at bargain basement prices. That's exactly what the Oerids did to all those Suel who fell into the lands they wanted. Like those of Urnst or the Iron League. Unlike those of Keoland, who didn't have time to flee with too much.

> underworld seem to be showing undue interest in the Great Kingdom, it's because they figured the land to be full of saps and easy marks. It's

Heh. Or maybe they just realize where the REAL power of the continent is, not in some two-bit, worn out, tired nation that was so insignificant, it barely got a page worth of information written about it. :P

> Keoland that has he ancient sites of *good* and *balance*, something the peoples of the east were afraid would hurt their chances in picking up chicks.

Name one of Good. I don't recall any, and I'm wondering if you saw something I missed, or if you're just making this up.

As for Neutral, bah, who cares about a bunch of fence-sitters? If they can't choose a side, they'll make a nice red stain on the grass when it comes time to go to war. >:)

> PS The Barrier Peaks? The Crook of Rao? The Crystalmists in general, and the alien secrets therein? The Hellfurnaces, the weapons of giants, and the
> eldritch chambers of the aboleth?

I refuse to recognize Expedition of the Barrier Peaks as one. After all, the Keoish didn't get to it. It just sat there unopened for all that time until some adventurers were sent in to hack up everything that moved.

And the Crook of Rao was in Aerdy for a time, too. After all, it was Drax the Invulnerable of Rel Astra who pawned off that useless trinket to the Canon of Veluna. Heh. The funny things those tourists will fall for. :P

I know of no secrets in the Crystalmists.

I don't regard a volcano as a mystical site.

I don't know what giant's weapons you're referring to, but I doub there's anything I'd consider mystical in there (if it's not unique, it's not even really that close, unless it's something that isn't made by people or monsters, like a dweomer stone).

And as for the aboleth....I thought you were championing good and neutral sites...not sites as evil as the Cauldron of Night. :P

> Probably not. He wouldn't share private megalomaniacal schemes with just any
> outsiders.

True, but outsiders would have noticed large numbers of Flan being forced to worship him, with rather large sacrifices being made (think Dragon-King of Tyr from Dark Sun for an example) as opposed to, well, people giving lip service and getitng away with it.

> They didn't care. They just closed the doors. The Suel never noticed them.

You're right. The Suel barely noticed the speed-bump that is the elves of Celene. Just rolled right over them until the elves admitted defeat and ran and hid. :)

==
Taras Guarhoth, Sage of House Cranden
http://www.bestweb.net/~guarhoth/

Chapter 1 - Fortune's Map

Date sent: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:05:38 EDT
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
From: NiteScreed NiteScreed@AOL.COM
Subject: [GREYTALK] Chapter 1 – Fortune’s Map
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

The Journal of Rekham Al-Mudri
Being An Account Of A Journey Into The Far West

Chapter One – Fortune’s Map

I was born into a merchant family in Tusmit but have never considered myself a native of that land. As is the practice among merchants, I was apprenticed at an early age to my uncle, Alain Nothman of Ket, who had the good fortune to marry my aunt, Alia, thereby increasing the fortunes of both families. A merchant of Oerdian extraction, it is not unusual that Alain would marry a Bakluni, at least not in Ket. Ket is in all ways cosmopolitan. It is neither of the east nor of the west, neither savage nor civilized but all this and more. All manner of peoples, races and religions mix, more or less comfortably, in Ket as befits its position as the crossroads between the Flanaess and the Inner West. I am by choice a Kettite.

My education was no more than what might be expected living as a merchant in a cosmopolitan mecca. That I have some skill with numbers, being able to quickly calculate sums without an abacus, and a fair memory for names and dates won me a place as an accountant for my uncle. That I was young and vigorous as well meant I could and would be sent with caravans to deliver goods as well as greeting those caravans that arrived at our business address in Lopolla. The older accountants, grown sedentary or settled, did not begrudge me the opportunity to see the world. It was in such employ that I made a fateful journey to the City of Greyhawk in my twenty-second year. We were first to Mitrik and then down the Velverdyva to the Nyr Dyv before on to the City of Greyhawk in the company of some Rhenee bargemen.

Of our merchanting in Greyhawk little needs be said. We were about our business with a load of mixed rugs, Kettish, Ullite and Paynim with some Tusman and fewer Zeifari or Ekbirian, and concluded matters without incident. We also carried as well some secretive cargo for the wizard Rary, a favorite son of Ket. I know not the nature of the cargo for it was intrusted solely to the caravan master but the difficulty he had in arranging to see the wizard allowed me freedom to
explore the city in a manner that would not otherwise have been possible.

Greyhawk is a great and overgrown metropolis with many twisting streets and allies. It is very much like Lopolla in this respect but greater in size by half. It is far more open seeming, not in the least because there is no everpresent dusty haze blowing in from the Paynim Plain. The river wind makes the city seem ever clan and fresh. Architecturally, Greyhawk sports fewer buildings of any height than Lopolla and builds more with stone. The sun dried, red brick buildings of Lopolla routinely top six or eight stories, while in Greyhawk siz is unusual. It was a simple enough matter then to navigate by the sun, not obscured by high tenements and clouds of dust, as I wandered absorbing the sights and sounds of the alien city.

Of my sojourn in this city of the unfathomable east no more needs be said before coming to my discovery. In my wanderings, I looked over the city with a merchant’s eye and a boy’s wonder. It did not escape me that a clever purchase, being returned to Lopolla, might fetch a handsome sum that I could then invest in my uncle’s business to better my lot; for I did not intend to spend my life accounting for other’s fortunes alone. Entertaining such avaricious thoughts, and lost in reverie if the truth be told, I wandered then into a passage of no particular note when I spied the sort of emporium commonly encountered in Lopolla. Zreed’s Antiquary promised any manner of oddments that might suit my need. I entered upon the shop, determined to explore.

What I found was simple enough. It was a map. Crudely drawn and lacking in detail, it was offered for a pittance, probably not cast off as trash by merest chance. Doubtless the proprietor considered it worthless but I essayed my fortune in its faded parchment. You must understand that as a merchant I have a passing familiarity with maps. I am no expert cartographer but I know what is mapped and what is not, where the caravans have pulled back the corners of the world and where knowledge vanishes into a misty horizon. The map clearly showed the outline of the Flanaess, my adopted homeland of Ket and the Inner West but it revealed much more. It was nothing less than a map of Oerth! It pushed back the horizon to reveal the lands of the Far West! Here was opportunity! I purchased the trifle with concealed glee.

Copyright 1998. NiteScreed@aol.com. All rights reserved.