From: "Paul Redmond"
Subject: Re: EuroChat summary?
Here ya go - even edited and spell checked to remove the fluff.
>I thought someone was going to summarize our work and post it to the list?
Maybe once we actually do some work - I haven't contacted Stephane about doing naything yet - been a bit busy.
Anyway here's the log:
sander> A town is a way too big undertaking - a village?
Volstagg> We can start small.
Stephane> Sander) A thorp ?
Woesinger> a village of some sort sounds good
Woesinger> if so then where
sander> now if I knew what a thorp was...
Volstagg> A village in the Wild Coast, plagued by kobolds?
Volstagg> A thorp is a community smaller than a village.
Quij> a new village of Hommlet would be cool.
Stephane> We could also finish the session with some home work to be completed in the following week (s ?) before posting it to Greytalk.
Volstagg> Homework?? I'm not in school anymore..
Stephane> Vol) :-P
Stephane> The simple fact that you have to produce something for the rest of the group next week could help procrastinators like...me
sander> Now whose afraid of homework?
Olvenhero> It's a good idea to use a local on the Wild coast consumed by the Pomarj. It allows for humanocentric approach to the original material and the transition to humanoid occupation is easier to conceive. In all, it becomes of use and adventurous to both a pre- and post-Wars setting.
Quij> What do you guys think the Wild Coast political scene looks like? I've always thought of it as small villages mostly, with independent lords and a lot of freeman farmers.
Stephane> Again, let's start very small, exchange idea around a project and do some writing. not everybody has to write every week. We could use volunteers...
Olvenhero> More like diffuse city-states always on the verge of greater things.
Volstagg> Really, Quij? I thought it was controlled by city states...
Quij> I've never thought that the city states controlled more than their hex.
Volstagg> Okay, our village should be somewhere in the south...
sander> The small villages would dominate - there are only so many city-states, and they have got to get the food from somewhere...
Volstagg> Since when do farmers control city-states just because of they make the food?
sander> There would be quite a lot of fishing villages there... As well as elsewhere on the coasts of Flannaess
Woesinger> how about a village far enough away from a city state that it is semi independent?
Volstagg> Okay. A remote village. Inland?
sander> 'dominate' and 'dominate' as in - there are going to be lots and lots of more villages than city states
Woesinger> or it just give lip service and occasional tithes to the local city-state ruler?
Quij> Volstagg: the farmers don't control anything, imo (not like the Yeomanry at all), but each lord would maintain his own sovereignty.
Volstagg> Well, naturally there will be more villages than cities. That would be true anywhere.
Volstagg> Does our remote inland village have its own lord?
Olvenhero> Nearer to the forests would be good for this kind of semi-autonomy. The larger cities wouldn't want to over extend themselves, but might offer aid in exchange for food. The humanoids of the forests would provide adventure problems in any timeframe and the olvenfolk might be usable in a Mak-oriented situation.
sander> Why do people always when talking about feudalism/middle-ages put
the peasants in the situation they were in France in the beginning of 17th century?
sander> Not every village has a direct lord. Villages don't have lords, regions (no matter how small) do...
sander> But whatever it has one and to whom it pays taxes to is a very distant matter imho...
Volstagg> Okay, Sander, so is this in a lorded region, or a lordless region?
Olvenhero> San> But villages do often have lords at some level above them. But yes, villages more often have "protectors", reeves, or elders of some sort to "lead".
Stephane> We would choose next week project at the end of the chat or have
some one say that he will bring a starter to the next chat. this starter could be posted before the chat, so everybody would know the basics.
Quij> In the current orcish "empire" the people would have new masters: the orcs. They'd either be serfs or, probably, slaves. I wonder how the orcs maintain control as a minority, alien race? Could be the people don't care? (one set of masters is as good as another?)
sander> Or rather, neither the people nor the orcs really care? Why should they?
Olvenhero> How about semi-control under the authority of gnolls or flinds, who are very organised?
Volstagg> A flind landlord? Hmm...
Volstagg> Stephane, this is looking promising, so maybe we can try your scheme for next week.
sander> Well, I guess they just give their share of foodstuffs to whatever "lord" goesby and demands one
sander> And whom they don't feel like they can just boot away.
Volstagg> Is this a village of 400 humans? 500?
Stephane> Volstagg) Much smaller than that !
Stephane> About 150
sander> Too many. Rather, why not decide the number of families and work from there?
sander> So 10 families?
sander> 15 families?
Volstagg> How many in a family?
Quij> Maybe Turrosh Mak is an enlightened despot? Could be the Flanaess will see a renaissance of orcish culture...
sander> 10 people or more, usually
Stephane> 15 families fine with me, with about 4-5 people per family
Volstagg> That's a small family, Stephane...
Olvenhero> Quij> Please....
sander> 4-5 is way too few for a medieval or even close families
Volstagg> Who's going to work the fields with that few kids?
Stephane> Volstagg> A family for me being an homestead. Agreed though that,
in a rural setting, families would be bigger
Volstagg> 22 families, approx. 200 people?
Woesinger> Right how about this - the village is close to the limit of the effective control of a WC city state - out of the way but has a fertile hinterland. it bribes the city with food to keep their officials off their backs.
Woesinger> When the orcs invaded its sufficiently off the beaten track (or close to the Olves) that the orcs cannot maintain sufficient control
Quij> My current character comes from the wild coast, in a town I invented at the crossroads of Badwall, Fax, & Elredd. His family has about well over 20 people in it. (about 8 or 10 brothers and sisters, and their children, the parents, grandparents, and a few farmhands)
Volstagg> And how about 25 miles of Badwall as placement?
Woesinger> As to family sizes -8-10 including grandmothers etcetc
songe> don't you think ten people "alive" per families is too much
sander> Towards the sea?
Quij> Olvenhero: Don't like my idea of Turrosh Mak? hehe.
Volstagg> It just doesn't seem very remote to me if its by the sea...
sander> Family: 2+2+1-2+4 at the very minimum
songe> I mean in medieval time there is many death
Volstagg> Much death, and much...you know...going on.
Olvenhero> Quij> I think the record stands that Mac earned his title of "Despot".
sander> 2 - grandparents + 2 - husband & wife + 1-2 unmarried brothers/sisters + about 4 surviving children
Quij> songe: that begs the question: how common are priests? who are also spellcasters?
sander> not everybody married/had a family, largely not to divide the available land up too much
Volstagg> But even married children would often live in their family's home.
Volstagg> Well, at least in a slavic culture...
Quij> Volstagg: I agree.
Woesinger> Yeah - and remember no birth control (or very basic) ;)
sander> As for priests, about one I guess, imc no non-spellcasting priests, no magic-user
songe> quij> I always thing shaman to be both priest and mage but I play in first ed you know
Volstagg> I think we can assume no leveled people in a village that small.
sander> well, in a fantasy setting, there is no reason for no birth control.
Creighto2> birth control would be "natural"; a very high child mortality
Stephane> I'd say a first level priest and maybe a first level fighter
Woesinger> so how about 15 families - giving between 125 and 175 people?
Volstagg> 30 miles northwest of Elredd?
Olvenhero> Vol> Actually, depending on how close to the forests, there might be a couple woodsfolk who qualify as rudimentary rangers.
Quij> pre-industrial societies valued large families.
Volstagg> Someone was adamant about it being by the sea...
sander> industrial ones did as well, ;largely until after WWII
Volstagg> 150 pop. sounds too small to me to bother with, but if everyone else thinks that's okay...
Stephane> Volstagg> Remember, we want to start small
Woesinger> any advance on 150?
Woesinger> 150 going once
Volstagg> I think that's too small to rationalise a 1st level cleric being there.
Quij> many religions have a "go forth and multiply" clause, too (at least the Romans did).
Stephane> I like 20 families and 200 people
Volstagg> At most it has a shrine to one god.
Woesinger> I hear 200!
songe> ok for 200 souls
Creighto2> and a militia of 20 max
sander> Well, doesn't Safeton number 5500?
Stephane> Volstagg) in rural Québec, until 1960, every village would have a church.
sander> 200 people would never accept feeding a militia of 20
Quij> I think that's just the people living within the town walls.
songe> I suppose you plan to build up a village
Volstagg> 200 souls, 20 militiamen, with 1 1st lvl leader?
Woesinger> 200 sounds reasonable for a hamlet to me
Olvenhero> I suppose we don't want to use the village from DUNGEON....
Creighto2> the militia would have other jobs they would be part-timers
Stephane> MIlitia is taken from the villagers, on a round basis.
sander> leave the 20 militiamen out
Volstagg> The militia might be forced on them!
Volstagg> A militia of humanoids?
sander> 20 is way too many - 10%
Stephane> Olvenhero) DUNGEON ??
Woesinger> if this is a semi independent place then they might not have a militia per se
Quij> GH population figures are much too small, imo. they should be increased by x5 to be reasonable.
Creighto2> not really if they all have other jobs and just soldier when needed
Woesinger> they might get the able-bodied folk to defend from any threats, but an organised militia ...I don't know
sander> Well, 20 humanoid soldiers + some non-soldiers sounds ok
songe> sander > hard to feed 20 unproductive in a way but may be they could
be timber ( bucheron) or hunter
sander> songe - agreed. the village would never have 20 militia
Volstagg> By the way, Stephane, those churches didn't have 1st lvl clerics!
Volstagg> 15 militiamen, then?
sander> a 1st level cleric is very probable
Quij> I think the "militia" would be part-time, maybe training every Godsday or something, but farmers, shepherds, etc. otherwise.
Stephane> I'd say 10-20 able bodied people who could take up village defence, maybe more . It make for one male per family.
Volstagg> I totally disagree about the cleric.
sander> Why, Vollstag?
Olvenhero> Stef> The Setting Sun, issue #73
songe> quij > it s the way I see it too
Volstagg> Are we assuming this is not a humanoid occupied village?
Woesinger> able bodied men would be about a third of the population?
sander> No. 1/6
Quij> Woe: I think 1/5th at the most.
Stephane> Every head of a family, plus at least the older son, would be "volunteer" in time of needs
Stephane> That make for about 20-30 people.
sander> I'm not sure about that...
Woesinger> that sounds good - and they'd have bow and spear, maybe a few swords and axes?
songe> stephane> that sound correct to me
Stephane> Volstagg> That is what I'm assuming. It is not worth any garrison
sander> Bows maybe, axes maybe, one or two swords (these are expensive),
some spears (hunting) also
Quij> spear, self bow, maybe pole arms. I don't think swords would be too popular with working class.
Woesinger> and they'd deal with local threats and the like
Woesinger> pikes? flails etc?
Creighto2> I would have thought few swords mainly spears, wood axes and a couple of bows bearing in mind a longbow costs around 75gp
sander> popular? It sounds as if sword had any special advantages as a weapon over axes or maces
Taras> Pole Arms are a must. A bunch of them were essentially agricultural tools (ie: bill hook), so they will be there.
Volstagg> Not me, Steph. Someone should have thought of that sooner..
Volstagg> Though so far it sounds like it could be anywhere.
Quij> I firmly believe that every town would have some sort of local lord, a baronet or knight. (even if his seat is in another town)
Woesinger> there wouldn’t be a garrison partly because its too small and partly because they bribe the officials with food etc not to put one here (?)
Stephane> Quij) Not this small hamlet
sander> It is a small village. A knight would have several
Woesinger> and this is the Wild coast after all not an organised state (?)
sander> It needs several to buy a new sword or have his mail repaired once in a while
Quij> if the village didn't have a master, some war lord would come around and make himself one (I think)
songe> may be this small hamlet have a landlord who don't care about it
sander> Why would the officials want a garrison there?
Stephane> Maybe this village was under the rule of a lord before the orcs came. Now, they are just trying to survive
Woesinger> sander: to maintain control?
Creighto2> I assume this village is not occupied and therefore in the north
Quij> I could see that. The kingsmen went away, and didn't come back. But the hereditary title would pass along to someone. (nobles just don't give up claim to land)
Stephane> Creighton) It is conquered but not occupied
songe> so what are the natural resource of this hamlet?
Woesinger> perhaps the claim is disputed?
sander> woesinger: to maintain control you only need to be able to a) boot away anybody trying to take over b) make it clear to the peasants you can burn the village down any time you like
Woesinger> and has been for a long time..
Creighto2> if it were conquered who would it have a human militia wouldn’t the all be disarmed?
Stephane> Songe> Forest being the obvious
Volstagg> Halfway between Fax and Elredd along the coast?
Woesinger> such that the locals have got used to the idea of being free to an extent and want to stay that way
sander> just like almost any other village
Quij> no need for a garrison. fear of the gibbet will keep most peasants in line.
sander> Not on the coast, if we don't want to tackle fishing
Stephane> Creighton> officially, they are...
songe> so they hunt could gather wood and farm
songe> a typical hamlet in a way
Woesinger> sander: fair enough - then they just keep a low profile and don't give anyone the excuse to come and do that
Creighto2> being caught with a bow or spear would be a death sentence
Volstagg> The '83 book says the Wild Coast produces no outstanding resources...
Woesinger> sander: burn their village down
Olvenhero> Vol> I always read that as exportable resources.
Volstagg> So they only make what they need here.
Stephane> Creighton> I don't know. Since orcs are the conquerors, they probably don’t pay too much attention to a small hamlet of peasant
Creighto2> it will still produce enough grain etc to sustain life
sander> Well, being caught with a weapon being worth punishment depends largely on the location and time
Olvenhero> Or, "unknown".
songe> they produce no resource for exportation for sure, a small hamlet could barely do that
Volstagg> Are you thinking of feudal Japan, Creighton?
Woesinger> also on weapons it depends on who's enforcing law and order, which I think we've discussed is pretty non-existent
Creighto2> No I’m thinking if you had conquered somewhere you would not take kindly to someone running around with a powerful weapon like a bow
sander> Do they produce grain or rice or....?
songe> do they have herd?
Woesinger> right - we need to make a distinction between pre and post war...
sander> Or you would not care as everybody always does bear a weapon and you would punish those who are careless
Woesinger> initially we're detailing pre war (?)..
Quij> I think a small village like this would be a farming village (with a little left over to sell in the cities on market days) and mostly self sufficient.
Volstagg> The village is nominally lead by the 1st level fighter, a family head who had some war experience.
Woesinger> then moving on through to post war (?)
songe> cows ? sheep?
Stephane> Songe) No herd anymore, eaten by the orcs
Quij> turnips and sheep. :-)
sander> Vollstag - or who has the most riches?
Volstagg> Yes, they could still have sheep.
Volstagg> What riches? The one with the most sheep?
sander> The one with most land, animals and maybe a gold coin or two hidden somewhere
Woesinger> and the respect of the rest of the hamlet?
Olvenhero> Why not goats instead of sheep? If you are near the coastline, there's cliffs to negotiate, according to the several sources on the Wild Coast.
sander> Or if we are talking the coast, the one with two fishing boats instead of one
Woesinger> why not goats and sheep?
Quij> I hate to say it... but potatoes are a good crop. esp. in an area were there are a lot of soldiers roaming around trampling crops.
Stephane> Sander) No one would have land, per se. I think everything would be communal
Olvenhero> Or sheep plus goats?
songe> if they have sheep they have wool in a small amount at least plus leather from hunt and wood from woods:)
Volstagg> We keep wavering back and forth on if its a port village or not...
Volstagg> We need to make a decision before we can go farther.
sander> Stephane - the communal thing lasted for short time, it was largely communal + personal
Woesinger> right inland or on the coast?
Quij> goat milk and cheese
sander> port = coast.
Olvenhero> Isn't it easier if it's inland some?
sander> I'd go for inland as well - it is way easier
Volstagg> I originally wanted it tucked away by the Suss somewhere.
Olvenhero> Vol> That seems better to me.
Woesinger> so is that a majority for inland?
Quij> does the WC have very many natural harbours, or is it a "cliffy" kind of coast (or are there lots of reefs, shoals, etc. in the water). What about pirates?
Olvenhero> More cliffs as you go south, it seems.
Volstagg> What does Spain have?
Woesinger> vol: not assigned
Olvenhero> Quij> Yeah, them too. there are shelter coves to be had.
Volstagg> Actually, I meant, does Spain have beaches or cliffs?
Woesinger> vol: doh! ;)
Quij> Barcelona, and Port. has Lisbon. Two excellent port towns.
Woesinger> Spain has everything from beaches to cliffs
Woesinger> its a big place
Taras> So's the Wild Coast.
Woesinger> however am I right in saying the consensus is inland?
Stephane> OK. We have a small inland village, with about 20 families and 20 people, a first level leader and a first level cleric. it is located south of Badwall, was conquered by orcs but is not occupied right now since orcs don't bother with such a small hamlet. About 20 persons are able-bodied but they won’t resist orc's being largely outnumbered. they have crops.
Olvenhero> How about the occasional gnoll/flind tribesmen checking on the village, collecting food, etc.?
Woesinger> yeah the villagers might buy off the orcs/gnolls with food
sander> Well, the orcs/whoever would come by not so regularly and demand foodstuffs
Olvenhero> What I'm saying is, there needs to be the constant threat of "discovery" for anything going on.
Quij> An orcish governor in his villa?
sander> she meant rather 20 and able-bodied as in 'bearing weapons'
Olvenhero> The flinds/gnolls would be capable of sussing out any kind of complex plan, making the situation that much more tense.
sander> Orcs aren't the kind to put a lone governor somewhere
Quij> I was being silly.
Olvenhero> Sander> Which is the idea for Gnolls/Flind ::smile::.
Stephane> Taras) Sorry, 20
Stephane> Olvenhero) I like that (the threat of discovery)
songe> ok 20 first level fighter
sander> 20 leveled people in a village of 200?
Creighto2> 0 level fighters...
Quij> At this population level, you could detail everyone (at least age, sex, and maybe name) and just count heads to find who many able bodied males there are...
Olvenhero> Stef> It also opens up the olven potential, if there is at least one half-olven in the settlement. do we want this?
sander> 1 first level fighter, 1 first level cleric, 20 zero level fighters, 1 zero level cleric?
Stephane> Songe) No, 20 able-bodied people with only one 1st level fighter
sander> No. No half-elves
Olvenhero> Lay-person cleric?
Olvenhero> I did this once, it was a good idea.
Woesinger> a sort of village healer type?
songe> stephane> they are foodstuff for orcs :)
Quij> what about a druid?
sander> Ermm... 1 st level cleric most probably. It should be more likely for a village to have a 1st level cleric than a 1st level fighter
Woesinger> knows some herb lore and bone setting - also devoted to some god
Quij> the "old faith"?
Olvenhero> Priest would be what: Obad-Hai, Beory, or Ehlonna?
sander> obad-hai, beory, merikka
Stephane> Half-elven druid living not far in the Suss ?
Woesinger> Obad-Hai or Beory or maybe Pelor?
Olvenhero> What the hell is Merrika?
Woesinger> the Pelor priest would have to keep his head down
Stephane> I like Merrika !
sander> agriculture related demi/lesser goddess
Quij> maybe the local priest/druid told the people not to resist the orcs and because of that were saved?
Creighto2> of oeridian decent
Olvenhero> Not Ehlonna, then. she patron of half-elves and rangers, despite the screw up in _FtA_. I have the revisions from Carl, if anyone needs it...
songe> so in a way if they product food and pay a tribute to some humanoids they are protected by those ugly things
Olvenhero> songe> only in as far as they provide what is demanded -- whether in season or not. This offers more tension, as the "orcs" wouldn't care about growing seasons.
sander> Not protected - left in peace and living and the village not razed.
Olvenhero> Quij> About what?
Stephane> Songe) Kind of
Woesinger> yeah - but the orcs/flinds are a bit volatile - and have burned down some other villages in drunken fits?
sander> Well, the orcs probably would.
Quij> Olven: about what you meant by "druid" but not druidic priests.
songe> what happen if another band of humanoids try to raid the hamlet?
Quij> songe: they'd be sol
Stephane> Songe) The village is raided...
songe> ok thanks
sander> A conflict involving two bands of humanoids and the villagers?
Olvenhero> Woe> yes, but they occupied those villages. This one is too small to do that, except by a small force or single creature, like a gnoll/flind. Humanoid patrols might visit with varying frequency through the seasons.
Stephane> Songe, Of course, you could always play on intertribal conflict but no one would "care" about the village
Quij> heck, an ogre and his bully boys could take over this town...
songe> are you sure someone would like to live here ?
Stephane> Quij> Too big an opposition. I prefer the flind guy who come every other month or so for a tribute.
sander> Imho a very good idea 8-)
Woesinger> the flind sounds good
Stephane> Songe> They don’t have a choice...
songe> I mean why they don't left the hamlet and try to join a city
Woesinger> because things are worse in the city and beside they’re farmers they value the land that they "own"
songe> so they are 'enclose' in their land
Stephane> Songe> The nearest human-controlled city is more than 250 miles north...
sander> Why would they? They have no skills needed in a village. The most valuable thing they have is that the y work that piece of land
Creighto2> they would need a blacksmith
songe> ok I have not realised that they are directly in humanoids territory
Woesinger> yeah - that's probably true (blacksmith)
sander> Maybe. If there is a larger village not too far off, then no. But probably yes.
Olvenhero> Besides, even today most people don't travel more than 50-100 miles beyond home. It was so in elder times, too.
Creighto2> people lived a died in a 10 mile radius
Woesinger> so what have we got so far?
sander> Travelling in orc-ruled wild coast is probably not so good idea...
Olvenhero> What about the itinerant trader? Not everywhere had a forger/blacksmith but got goods in trade.
Woesinger> hmm...yeah - who hasn't shown up the last while....
sander> A village of 200, 20 who bear weapons, 1 fighter, 1 cleric, 1 blacksmith
Woesinger> or has, and has contacts with some sort of resistance?
Stephane> inland village, 20 family, 200 people, 20 able-bodied guys, one 1st level fighter, 1 st level cleric of Merrika or Obad'hai, a flind "superintendent"...
Olvenhero> Sounds cool....
sander> who visits once in a while
Olvenhero> I'll work on a name for our little village.
Olvenhero> How old is the village?
sander> There would probably be a family a bit more specialised in pottery
Quij> Why a flind? Why not an orc or 1/2 orc?
sander> and another more specialised in tanning
Creighto2> what about Darkwater as it is located near a deep river?
sander> and another more specialised in weaving
Stephane> Quij) Originality !
Quij> Oh. Okay. :)
Olvenhero> Orc would be incapable -- on the whole -- of the job.
Stephane> Creighton) River ?
Woesinger> flinds are more cunning - therefore more dangerous to any plans the villagers might have
sander> Not meaning that these are the only ones doing these or that the others don't do these but just that these are more specialised & practice it more
Olvenhero> Creighton> Well, I was thinking of something more integrated with cultural history.
Creighto2> just throwing something in all villages would be on or near rivers/streams etc IMC
Quij> Olvenhero: incapable? Orcs are as intelligent as humans, elves, dwarves, etc.
sander> Creighton2 - why?
Volstagg> Are you working on plot hooks yet?
Olvenhero> Quij>Not intelligence, ability to perform the office without destruction.
sander> There definitely have been and are lots of villages and towns that aren't.
Stephane> Ok, Dungeoncraft rule, we need a secret in this village. How about some indications to the lost city of the Suel in the Suss ? or the ruins of Nol-Daer, from DUNGEON
Woesinger> we've got the flind superintendent and possibly an itinerant trader who is in contact with a resistance movement?
Volstagg> It's true, the village needs a stream, well, or spring somewhere in walking distance..
sander> Oh no, not another lost city.;..
Olvenhero> How about a legacy from the Suel push out of the Sheldomar?
Volstagg> There already is a lost city in the Suss.
Creighto2> sander. to get water, transport, trade etc water travel was quicker/safer
sander> How about a demi-human the village people hide and guard?
Quij> Orcs are lawful evil (on average) aren't they? Not OGRE SMASH or something. ;-)
Olvenhero> I'll reoffer my half-elf?
sander> I'd offer rather a gnome...
Stephane> Volstagg) Yes, I just want to, maybe , tie these two things
sander> But half-elf is a possibility
Woesinger> or an olve from Celene?
Olvenhero> Quij> I don't recall, but they usually act more in groups.
Woesinger> injured on a scouting mission?
Volstagg> Well, I'll just leave the rest up to you lot. I need to get back to heating up my soup, and then back to my OWN town of Shargallen...
Olvenhero> Woe> whoah! The village is a listening post for Celene's reconquest of there land?
Stephane> He, I like the demi-human thing
Woesinger> are the Celeni planning a reconquest?
Woesinger> he might have some connections to the Knights of Luna (?)
Woesinger> perhaps the itinerant trader is trying to arrange to get this Olve back to Celene or to a place of safety