Showing posts with label drow. Show all posts
Showing posts with label drow. Show all posts
Thursday, December 19, 2024
Friday, February 6, 2015
Thursday, February 26, 2009
Re: The Haughtiness of Elves [LONG]
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:12:56 -0800
From: Chris Anderson
Subject: Re: The Haughtiness of Elves [LONG]
One good example deserves another... here's the attitudes from my campaign. Note: I do not consider elves to be evil either, and I use a modified Birthright Elf for the dominant strain in Celene. I also use the "Vecna destroyed the Elven Cities" concept from Tamerlain's timeline.
--
Chris Anderson
The Gravediggers Campaign
http://caa.invite.net/ADnD/default.htm
You're an Elf. First-born of the world. Your ancestors were here when the Dragons and Titans battled for dominance. In times more ancient than memory, your predecessors fought to make the Flanaess safe for all Elves, and in doing so, for all civilized peoples.
You're 300 years old. Barely into your adult years. In your great-grandparent's time (over 1500 years ago) the Flanaess was the cradle of Elven civilization, with glittering cities scattered across the continent, and enjoying a long period of peace and prosperity. The hateful Drow had been put down long before in the Chaos Wars, and the many other Good races in the Flanaess enjoyed the fruits of the Elven civilization. In this time, Celene was a rather rural, backwards place of great natural beauty, but little culture or learning. Of no comparison to the great cities of the Elves.
Then came Vecna.
Originally tutored by the Elves in the Arts, this hateful human had turned on his benefactors and warred against the People. As powerful as Elven Magic was, it could not withstand the viciousness and raw aptitude that Vecna brought to the Arts. He delved into areas which no Elven Mage of Power would dare. He bought Power with unspeakable acts, and made pacts with Forces that should never be thought of or named, much less summoned and bargained with.
City after City fell. Cities which had taken millenia of effort by hundreds or thousands of Elves -- each one designed to be more beautiful and grand than any other. Ground to dust under the unrelenting force of Vecna's power. Treasures which had taken millenia to create were destroyed in moments by savages too barbaric to even understand what they were destroying. Children who had known nothing but joy and delight for all of their lives were raped and tortured by Vecna's soldiers and then sold into slavery and abuse for the price of a loaf of bread.
It went on and on. Every Elven city or nation who dared to oppose Vecna, to avenge themselves, were ground into dust. No Elven House or family in all the Flanaess was unaffected, save for the unspeakable Drow.
And Celene. The Elves of Celene had withdrawn into the fastnesses of their forest and hidden from the might of Vecna. No challenge did they offer, no vengeance did they take. They were fugitives in their own land. At first this was considered a treasonous act by the other Kingdoms of the Elves -- cowardice in the extreme. Yet in the end, Celene survived and the others did not. Across the Flanaess, the only Elves who survived were those who did not go openly into battle, or who fled battle to hide.
Vecna eventually passed. During the same time, came the rampaging Suloise.
Their wandering Houses did not match the power of Vecna, but the Elves were broken and wandering as well. The Suloise killed and destroyed what they found, and the Elves hid again. Only Celene maintained its borders -- militantly watched this time. When the Twin Cataclysm's flared, most Elves heaved a sigh of relief that one more threat had been eliminated. Celene watched and waited.
The Oeridians came, and this time the Elves of the Flanaess were forced to treat with them. With humans. The same race which had caused so much woe. Thankfully, the Oeridians proved to be much more reasonable than the Suloise. The Kingdom of Aerdy was born, and slowly the Elves slipped back from their dens and hiding places to form small communities and mix with the humans.
Celene did not. They had no desire to mix with humans, whether or not they were better or worse than Vecna or the Suloise. If a Vecna could happen once, it could happen again. Humans were not to be trusted or mixed with. Certainly they were never to be allowed in Celene.
Time passed, and a younger generation came to power. They had been raised on the tales of Vecna and seen the effects on their families. Yet at the same time, they had seen for themselves humans living in peace with Elves and other demi-humans in other areas of the Flanaess. Their feelings were mixed. Most felt that humans were not to be trusted or mixed with. A minority felt that they should be exterminated. Another minority thought that Celene should deal with the humans in trade and politics. They were few, though.
More time passed, and the second generation past Vecna came of age. The Hateful Wars occurred. If humans did not help with the threat of the Pomarj, at least they did not fight on the side of the Goblinoids. Again Celene defended it's borders, and again the foe was thrown back. To the West, the Ulek States were rising and were providing an object lesson in Elven and Human accord. Tales of High Folk filtered in, where humans and Elves lived peacefully together.
Yet there were those who still lived that had seen the horror of Vecna personally. And their children who had heard the tales of Vecna and seen the Suloise. Celene was the last precious jewel of Elven civilization left in the Flanaess. It would be criminal to risk it so soon after it was threatened. And to mix with humans? The destroyers of so many Elven kindred? That would be betrayal in the extreme of all those who died and suffered in the Wars Against Vecna. No! The borders would remain closed.
--------------------------------------------
This is the state of affairs as of 579CY in my campaign. The borders are closed to human entry. However, there is a growing sentiment among some of the population that there should be more contact with humanity -- even to the extent of humans living within the borders. The vast majority of Elves believe in isolation from humanity, and there is a strong vocal minority that agitate towards more extreme measures as an act of vengeance against the race that spawned Vecna.
The Lady Yolande believes that Celene will not be able to isolate itself from the rest of the Flanaess for too much longer, as Elves reckon time. Yet, as Elves reckon time, that may be for several centuries longer. The factions jockey for position of influence in the Elven Court, and "the human question" is not yet settled.
From: Chris Anderson
Subject: Re: The Haughtiness of Elves [LONG]
One good example deserves another... here's the attitudes from my campaign. Note: I do not consider elves to be evil either, and I use a modified Birthright Elf for the dominant strain in Celene. I also use the "Vecna destroyed the Elven Cities" concept from Tamerlain's timeline.
--
Chris Anderson
The Gravediggers Campaign
http://caa.invite.net/ADnD/default.htm
You're an Elf. First-born of the world. Your ancestors were here when the Dragons and Titans battled for dominance. In times more ancient than memory, your predecessors fought to make the Flanaess safe for all Elves, and in doing so, for all civilized peoples.
You're 300 years old. Barely into your adult years. In your great-grandparent's time (over 1500 years ago) the Flanaess was the cradle of Elven civilization, with glittering cities scattered across the continent, and enjoying a long period of peace and prosperity. The hateful Drow had been put down long before in the Chaos Wars, and the many other Good races in the Flanaess enjoyed the fruits of the Elven civilization. In this time, Celene was a rather rural, backwards place of great natural beauty, but little culture or learning. Of no comparison to the great cities of the Elves.
Then came Vecna.
Originally tutored by the Elves in the Arts, this hateful human had turned on his benefactors and warred against the People. As powerful as Elven Magic was, it could not withstand the viciousness and raw aptitude that Vecna brought to the Arts. He delved into areas which no Elven Mage of Power would dare. He bought Power with unspeakable acts, and made pacts with Forces that should never be thought of or named, much less summoned and bargained with.
City after City fell. Cities which had taken millenia of effort by hundreds or thousands of Elves -- each one designed to be more beautiful and grand than any other. Ground to dust under the unrelenting force of Vecna's power. Treasures which had taken millenia to create were destroyed in moments by savages too barbaric to even understand what they were destroying. Children who had known nothing but joy and delight for all of their lives were raped and tortured by Vecna's soldiers and then sold into slavery and abuse for the price of a loaf of bread.
It went on and on. Every Elven city or nation who dared to oppose Vecna, to avenge themselves, were ground into dust. No Elven House or family in all the Flanaess was unaffected, save for the unspeakable Drow.
And Celene. The Elves of Celene had withdrawn into the fastnesses of their forest and hidden from the might of Vecna. No challenge did they offer, no vengeance did they take. They were fugitives in their own land. At first this was considered a treasonous act by the other Kingdoms of the Elves -- cowardice in the extreme. Yet in the end, Celene survived and the others did not. Across the Flanaess, the only Elves who survived were those who did not go openly into battle, or who fled battle to hide.
Vecna eventually passed. During the same time, came the rampaging Suloise.
Their wandering Houses did not match the power of Vecna, but the Elves were broken and wandering as well. The Suloise killed and destroyed what they found, and the Elves hid again. Only Celene maintained its borders -- militantly watched this time. When the Twin Cataclysm's flared, most Elves heaved a sigh of relief that one more threat had been eliminated. Celene watched and waited.
The Oeridians came, and this time the Elves of the Flanaess were forced to treat with them. With humans. The same race which had caused so much woe. Thankfully, the Oeridians proved to be much more reasonable than the Suloise. The Kingdom of Aerdy was born, and slowly the Elves slipped back from their dens and hiding places to form small communities and mix with the humans.
Celene did not. They had no desire to mix with humans, whether or not they were better or worse than Vecna or the Suloise. If a Vecna could happen once, it could happen again. Humans were not to be trusted or mixed with. Certainly they were never to be allowed in Celene.
Time passed, and a younger generation came to power. They had been raised on the tales of Vecna and seen the effects on their families. Yet at the same time, they had seen for themselves humans living in peace with Elves and other demi-humans in other areas of the Flanaess. Their feelings were mixed. Most felt that humans were not to be trusted or mixed with. A minority felt that they should be exterminated. Another minority thought that Celene should deal with the humans in trade and politics. They were few, though.
More time passed, and the second generation past Vecna came of age. The Hateful Wars occurred. If humans did not help with the threat of the Pomarj, at least they did not fight on the side of the Goblinoids. Again Celene defended it's borders, and again the foe was thrown back. To the West, the Ulek States were rising and were providing an object lesson in Elven and Human accord. Tales of High Folk filtered in, where humans and Elves lived peacefully together.
Yet there were those who still lived that had seen the horror of Vecna personally. And their children who had heard the tales of Vecna and seen the Suloise. Celene was the last precious jewel of Elven civilization left in the Flanaess. It would be criminal to risk it so soon after it was threatened. And to mix with humans? The destroyers of so many Elven kindred? That would be betrayal in the extreme of all those who died and suffered in the Wars Against Vecna. No! The borders would remain closed.
--------------------------------------------
This is the state of affairs as of 579CY in my campaign. The borders are closed to human entry. However, there is a growing sentiment among some of the population that there should be more contact with humanity -- even to the extent of humans living within the borders. The vast majority of Elves believe in isolation from humanity, and there is a strong vocal minority that agitate towards more extreme measures as an act of vengeance against the race that spawned Vecna.
The Lady Yolande believes that Celene will not be able to isolate itself from the rest of the Flanaess for too much longer, as Elves reckon time. Yet, as Elves reckon time, that may be for several centuries longer. The factions jockey for position of influence in the Elven Court, and "the human question" is not yet settled.
Wednesday, December 3, 2008
Re: Chaotic governments
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Chaotic governments
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:16:25 -0500
From: The Watcher
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
Haile and Fair Greetings All,
>Noel "Has a Crush on Queen Yolande" Graham wrote:
My tastes run a bit younger.
>Olvenrealm works. And no, Coronal is not catching on...
Bet y'all think I'm going to change the Pocket Guide, don't you ::smile::?
>I can see three interpretations for the Geographic Alignment map in the
'83 boxed set. 1) The Alignment corresponds to the ruler only. 2) The
Alignment corresponds to the majority of the populace. 3) The Alignment belongs
to the land itself. No ruler or government not of that Alignment will be
successful in that region. The third one is a radical interpretation I had
suggested once hypothetically, but don't prefer. Currently, I'm leaning towards
the first, but I never seem satisfied on this point.
Well, I can see a fourth. That being the perceived alignment of the land. As written, the Catalogue to the Flanaess is a work compiled (presumptively) by one who lives(-ed) there. That being the case, the opinion of the recorder can be questioned. Even if we presume noble and academic motivation, the less information available on a place, the more likely conclusion becomes based upon sparse evidence -- thus increasing the variable for inaccuracy from presumption based on some ancillary data (in this case the accepted behavior of a race).
>Perhaps the distinction can be made that the drow have no laws, but
>only punishments?
Only? No.... You can't have a "punishment" (by definition) without an infraction. But building upon the spirit of your suggestion, perhaps it's closer to say the drow place emphasis on punishment ahead of crime. Which is to say, they determine punishment for "behavior" first, deciding as they desire which "act" and by whom meets that behavior. Deception carries a severe punishment in drow society. Lying to one's mercantile partners, associates, thralls (the list goes on), misleading as natural course -- these things are parcel to life amongst the drow.
But behaving as affronts a superior female, any priestess of Lolth, or a Matron Mother (esp. one's own) is absolutely forbidden.
Whether your act in any form of these cases requires punishment depends upon such things as who you are, whether you're in the graces of someone in authority, you're value (skills, whatever), or whether the simple threat of punishment makes you a useful tool.
Hmm... sadists....
>This intrigues me, because if elves truly chose their leaders like that,
then there is really no reason for the next ruler, or even the last ruler, to
have been of any relation to Yolande whatsoever. Losing the idea of a
hereditary monarchy would make the elven culture stand out more. But since Celene
isn't a republic, a new monarch wouldn't be elected by the people, but would
have to claim the throne with a show of power to fend off rivals. Elves
probably don't lose their monarchs of old age very often, but when they do,
>perhaps their chaotic natures lead to bloody civil wars.
I *did* say it was a simplistic portrayal ::smile::. And I don't recall saying Yolande's clan has been the only one to rule Celene. On the other hand, her clan does have a certain wealth of experience regarding rulership of this particular realm and dealing with these specific neighbors (along with the opportunity for the most wisdom related to the job). Unfortunately, that fact is what's causing her so
much trouble recently.
As well, don't forget succession. While I'm not going to say there's no potential for conflict over rulership, keep in mind that successfully seating one's self upon the throne doesn't gain anything of itself. If you took the crown by slaying your rivals, the peoples of Celene may tend not to like you. Therefor, you have no power to rule (the "office" is not empowered of itself). There's significant
possibility either all beyond your retinue abandon you, your realm collapses, or the people rise up in arms (figuratively as well as literally) to depose you. In the end, it seems more natural that an out-going leader selects or endorses the next one in order. This is what I was attempting to show the human government of Verbobonc mimicking.
As a caveat, I'm not taking the time to explain this in other than a positive light. You are correct that things could get ugly; but because of the way it would have to work to get as high as the monarchial chair, it's not like anyone with one eye won't see it coming from way off.
>I don't know...just because someone is Good doesn't mean that they have
the Wisdom to make good decisions. Besides, I'd rather see an elven
bloodbath once every few centuries...
Precisely why clans end up being known for some specialty amongst all the fields its members pursue. When you have a line that shows a preponderance toward fairness and wisdom of leadership, they tend to be trusted with leadership. But more, just because you're trusted to make good decisions and have a track record of such, doesn't mean you are incapable of massive blunders. Just because one springs from a line of wise beings doesn't make one personally wise.
Remember that situational ethics also means that while history gives you context for comparison, you still judge by the evidence at hand. Experience, knowledge, and the wisdom therefrom are your guides, but the choice is still about someone or thing in the here and now. It's *not* an easy thing to understand the ways of the olvenfolk -- which is not to insult anyone or claim superiority. But rather, if the ways of the olvenfolk were readily quantifiable and de-constructed by humans
(including *us*), they wouldn't have that air of... well, enigma about them. Then they really *would* be no more than old, pointy-eared humans.
Soft Winter and Sweet Flowers,
Watcher
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:16:25 -0500
From: The Watcher
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
Haile and Fair Greetings All,
>Noel "Has a Crush on Queen Yolande" Graham wrote:
My tastes run a bit younger.
>Olvenrealm works. And no, Coronal is not catching on...
Bet y'all think I'm going to change the Pocket Guide, don't you ::smile::?
>I can see three interpretations for the Geographic Alignment map in the
'83 boxed set. 1) The Alignment corresponds to the ruler only. 2) The
Alignment corresponds to the majority of the populace. 3) The Alignment belongs
to the land itself. No ruler or government not of that Alignment will be
successful in that region. The third one is a radical interpretation I had
suggested once hypothetically, but don't prefer. Currently, I'm leaning towards
the first, but I never seem satisfied on this point.
Well, I can see a fourth. That being the perceived alignment of the land. As written, the Catalogue to the Flanaess is a work compiled (presumptively) by one who lives(-ed) there. That being the case, the opinion of the recorder can be questioned. Even if we presume noble and academic motivation, the less information available on a place, the more likely conclusion becomes based upon sparse evidence -- thus increasing the variable for inaccuracy from presumption based on some ancillary data (in this case the accepted behavior of a race).
>Perhaps the distinction can be made that the drow have no laws, but
>only punishments?
Only? No.... You can't have a "punishment" (by definition) without an infraction. But building upon the spirit of your suggestion, perhaps it's closer to say the drow place emphasis on punishment ahead of crime. Which is to say, they determine punishment for "behavior" first, deciding as they desire which "act" and by whom meets that behavior. Deception carries a severe punishment in drow society. Lying to one's mercantile partners, associates, thralls (the list goes on), misleading as natural course -- these things are parcel to life amongst the drow.
But behaving as affronts a superior female, any priestess of Lolth, or a Matron Mother (esp. one's own) is absolutely forbidden.
Whether your act in any form of these cases requires punishment depends upon such things as who you are, whether you're in the graces of someone in authority, you're value (skills, whatever), or whether the simple threat of punishment makes you a useful tool.
Hmm... sadists....
>This intrigues me, because if elves truly chose their leaders like that,
then there is really no reason for the next ruler, or even the last ruler, to
have been of any relation to Yolande whatsoever. Losing the idea of a
hereditary monarchy would make the elven culture stand out more. But since Celene
isn't a republic, a new monarch wouldn't be elected by the people, but would
have to claim the throne with a show of power to fend off rivals. Elves
probably don't lose their monarchs of old age very often, but when they do,
>perhaps their chaotic natures lead to bloody civil wars.
I *did* say it was a simplistic portrayal ::smile::. And I don't recall saying Yolande's clan has been the only one to rule Celene. On the other hand, her clan does have a certain wealth of experience regarding rulership of this particular realm and dealing with these specific neighbors (along with the opportunity for the most wisdom related to the job). Unfortunately, that fact is what's causing her so
much trouble recently.
As well, don't forget succession. While I'm not going to say there's no potential for conflict over rulership, keep in mind that successfully seating one's self upon the throne doesn't gain anything of itself. If you took the crown by slaying your rivals, the peoples of Celene may tend not to like you. Therefor, you have no power to rule (the "office" is not empowered of itself). There's significant
possibility either all beyond your retinue abandon you, your realm collapses, or the people rise up in arms (figuratively as well as literally) to depose you. In the end, it seems more natural that an out-going leader selects or endorses the next one in order. This is what I was attempting to show the human government of Verbobonc mimicking.
As a caveat, I'm not taking the time to explain this in other than a positive light. You are correct that things could get ugly; but because of the way it would have to work to get as high as the monarchial chair, it's not like anyone with one eye won't see it coming from way off.
>I don't know...just because someone is Good doesn't mean that they have
the Wisdom to make good decisions. Besides, I'd rather see an elven
bloodbath once every few centuries...
Precisely why clans end up being known for some specialty amongst all the fields its members pursue. When you have a line that shows a preponderance toward fairness and wisdom of leadership, they tend to be trusted with leadership. But more, just because you're trusted to make good decisions and have a track record of such, doesn't mean you are incapable of massive blunders. Just because one springs from a line of wise beings doesn't make one personally wise.
Remember that situational ethics also means that while history gives you context for comparison, you still judge by the evidence at hand. Experience, knowledge, and the wisdom therefrom are your guides, but the choice is still about someone or thing in the here and now. It's *not* an easy thing to understand the ways of the olvenfolk -- which is not to insult anyone or claim superiority. But rather, if the ways of the olvenfolk were readily quantifiable and de-constructed by humans
(including *us*), they wouldn't have that air of... well, enigma about them. Then they really *would* be no more than old, pointy-eared humans.
Soft Winter and Sweet Flowers,
Watcher
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