Placing GH legends in chronology

 From: Mark Barazzuol [markb@intergate.bc.ca]

Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 11 :36 AM

To: 'greyhawk@MPGN.COM'

Subject: RE: [GREYHAWK] - Placing GH legends in chronology

I am attempting to place several of the historical and legendary figures of Oerth in a chronological order to help determine the possible influence and interaction between them.

I am looking for info on the powerful Mages, Liches and King-Priests ofhistory such as:

Tuerny, Lum, Acerak, Vecna, Tsojcanth, Cuthbert, and any others that come to mind.

Most of the time, all the books give you is "A long time back," or many centuries ago ..

Tuerny had influence over part of the great kingdom if I remember correctly, he may have controlled all of it at one time with his demonic servants. The artifact later turned on it's creator, and well, let's just say the rest is what you see of Tuerny now .. Given that time frame, it would put him in Early Great Kingdom history. Depending on the way you look at it possibly even before the formation of the great kingdom. (If you believe there was civilized life there before ..

Baron Lum was a noble under the rule of one of the Kings of Aerdy. He had - quite a rivalry going between himself and Leuk-o another who discovered one of those technological artifacts. He is definitly one of those early great kingdom personages too. No firm dates given.

Acerak is easily the most ancient of those you listed there. With the POSSIBLE exeception of Tsojcanth, depending on how you look at his time period. We know Acerak's empire was around the Sunndi area, and it existed before that place turned into a swamp. Given that there is no record of it with even early Great Kingdom history I would place them at least 500 years before the migration. Probally even 1000. Also given that Acerack had to be extremely old at that time. I would say the kingdom itself would have had to have lasted at very least 1000 years. (It does take a while for a lich to turn to dust..)

There is so much conflicting stuff on Vecna I can't really tell you .. Probally 1000+ years ago his empire was around. I wouldn't make it too much more than that.. I also don't even know where his empire was supposed to be. Early TSR docs seem to point to the West, somewhere in either the Suel or Oerdian empires. The most current docs point to around the Nyr Dyv area. Go figure ..

To find out how Tsojcanth was you just have to figure, when was the last time Tharizdun was active on Oerth? Given what horrors this guy is responsible for, I'd say he predates any of the history books for any races here. I'd put him 10,000 years back... He seems to be in a time period all to himself.

Cuthbert? No one has even speculated that before.. How old is Celestian? Or Farlanghn? Who knows? It's probally got to take a while to get up to that status. Realistically, I don't see any of the gods with "Medevil" styles to them originating on Oerth at all. Back when they were actually mortal (if they ever were .. ) the time period wouldn't have reached a Medevil point in Oerth culture.. No, probally like Mayheine they migrated. Maybe it wasn't from too far though .. Remember, there's lots of life on some of the other planets in the Oerth solar system. Some like Kule which have had long dead civilizations.. Who knows?

Re: Crook of Rao and the Blackspear Chamber

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Crook of Rao and the Blackspear Chamber
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 21:33:04 -0500
From: John C Wright
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

> Certainly, although the case is made below concerning the amount
> of human forces available to Drax, and the description of Rel ASTRA goes
> to some length to imply many instances of neutrality amongst its
> inhabitants. As well, nowhere has it been expounded in print as to how
> long Drax had possession of the _crook_.

In response to my comments about the investigation of the _crook_ powers, I did state it would take an exorbiant amount of time to safely learn all of its secrets. Drax had at most a bit over a decade, using a rough timeline of 575 the _crook_ is retrieved from Isle of the Ape and lost....and then recovered by 587 and used in the ceremony to drive out the fiends. Assuming of course, that the ceremony requires more than a simple setup (especially when driving out all of the fiends world-wide), and also assuming that Tenser doesn't lose the _crook_ the day after it is recovered, then Drax has in all likeliehood perhaps 8 years of time with the _crook_. Ample time to learn many of its powers, but far from enough time to learn them all. Remember that simple identifying and legend lores are not likely to reveal much if anything about artifacts.

>
> >Providing that Drax did learn something though, he knew that although he
> could
> >call on fiendish aid from the fiend-sage, he had nowhere near the amount
> of
> >fiends to rely upon as Iuz and Ivid did. In addition, by having his
> military
> >primarily human and led by humans, Drax would be in an advantageous
> position
> >should all other fiends be sent away. Iuz's armies would be undermined,
> Ivid's
> >armies would be leaderless in many places, as well as lacking his
> shock-troops.
> >
> >This was almost entirely a win-win situation for Drax. By bartering the
> item
> >away to a force that he knew would use it for the removal of fiends,
> Drax got
> >just what he wanted out of the item, and a crateful of powerful magic to
> boot.
> Excellent logic in display here, until one reaches the timeline
> as prepared by Master Moore within "GH: tAB". Throughout the text (truly
> beginning on p. 27), Rel Astra is painted in bold colors as a "Free City"
> bent on expanding its defensive capabilities against a far-stronger
> Overking Xavener (UKoA). From the events presented, were this truly
> Drax's intent and mindset, he appeared to have taken leave of his
> faculties whence the time to act was upon him. In short, I'd given grave
> considerations to Drax's position in the original theorization, with this
> but one undermining issuance against his primacy in the matter.

Failed to act when the time was upon him? Do you mean he failed to act when the fiends were cast out? If so, we must look at the repercussions which occured as soon as the fiends were cast out. Almost immeadiately, the city of Rauxes was under siege by all the contenders to the throne. This is most likely a result of Ivid having half of his intellect, or a portion of his ability driven from him by the power of the _crook_. (This is based on many rumors as to a possible demonic/devilish bloodline, both in the online Ivid the Undying supplement, and the very well-written (yet non-canon) History of the Great Kingdom)). Drax, being the manipulator that he is, and preferring defense over offense, held back and waited for the dust to settle (he knew he was not the only one wanting the Overking dead...but he did know he was the one person he wanted to most survive the fall of the Overking). Now the dust has
settled and he has expanded his region of influence slowly, but fast enough that he is still a very powerful force to be reckoned with.

John Wright

Re: Axe of the Dwarvish Lords

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 99 13:46PM PDT
From: Thom Denholm Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

I'll second Samwise's estimation.
I especially love the "full color map book -- way to go Todd, Dennis and Rob!

Appendix 2 contains suggested locations in Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Birthright, Planescape, Mystara, Al-Quadim, and Red Steel for the main adventure settings, the city of Oredeep and the abandoned stronghold of Radruundar.

Quoting the Greyhawk section (hey, somebody was bound to...)

" Within the Flanaess, the area near the city of Haverhill in the Principality of Ulek (or Haverhill itself) will do nicely for the city of Oredeep. In the postwar Flanaess, Haverhill/Oredeep will be an armed camp watching for invasion from the Pomarj, and the goblin army in Chapter 3 will come from the Pomarj.

Radruundar is best located far north of Ulek, somewhere in the Yatil Mountains northwest of Exag. The dwarves of the Flanaess have little interest in reclaiming Radruundar, but like the dwarves of the Realms they regard the Axe as a dwarven heirloom not suitable for nondwarven hands. Members of the Circle of Eight will tend to support the dwarves' claim.

A dwarf player character who chooses to reopen Radruundar will have little trouble attracting dwarven retainers to operate the stronghold; however, the action draws unwanted attention from the derro in addition to all the complications noted in the previous section."

Go ahead Samwise, name those artifacts of Pelor for us.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Samuel Weiss [SMTP:samwise1@EMAIL.MSN.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 1999 1:22 P
> To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [GREYTALK] Axe of the Dwarvish Lords
>
> As most know, the Axe was originally a GH item.
> Forytnately the adventure has nothing that firmly places it in any
> campaign,
> and can easily be slipped into GH.
> Beyond that, it is pretty damn good. Actually, I'd say it is
> everything
> Dragon Mountain should have been.
> More when I can.
>
> Samwise of Pelor
> What about the artifacts of Pelor?

Artifacts of Greyhawk

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:47:29 EST
From: Gary Welsh
Subject: Artifacts of Greyhawk

Lately, I have been thinking about doing my own timeline for the ancient eras of Greyhawk, and the legend and history of the various artifacts and relics linked to Greyhawk. This is not intended to be canonical, but is purely IMC. In this timeline, I have tried to be true to the old, 1st ed. sources, which may not be to everyone's taste, but that is the flavor I am aiming at.

BEGINNING
The beginning of time predates any of the calendars, including the Suel Dominion. The elves, gnomes and dwarves have a very long oral history, with songs, poems and sagas from thousands of years ago. In these early times which are partly history and mostly myth, the demihumans have stories about the "Age of the Gods" when the gods supposedly walked the Oerth, and they and their minions established realms and battled for supremacy. No one knows how long this "Age of the Gods" was, or just when it ended. One of the stories that might be from this era could be the Battle of Pesh, in which the Wind Dukes of Aaqa (deities of Law) battled with the Queen of Chaos. According to the early stories, the "King of the Gods" sat at the Throne of the Gods, in a gigantic, cavernous hall in an immense mountain somewhere. One reason given for why the "Age of Gods" ended is that the deities did not want to destroy Oerth with their conflicts, and so withdrew to the Outer Planes.

SUEL DOMINION
The oldest calendar dates back to the beginning of the Suel Dominion. The Suel Calendar was applied to a time of which not many records were kept, so its beginnings are also shrouded in myth and legend. All that is known is that the priests and astrologers did develop an increasingly accurate calendar, and retroactively applied their "Year One" to a great event in their own cultural history. After that, for thousands of years, the Suel Dominion evolved into a great and powerful and rich civilization, which moved through several eras, before coming to an end due to the Rain of Colorless Fire in 5094 SD.

OLVEN CALENDAR
In the year 1053 SD, the Olven Calendar begins (OC). It may be that the elves began accurate timekeeping after learning about the Suloise Dominion calendar. Before that, they may simply not have cared much about linear timekeeping and the recording of particular events. The Olven Calendar records the early history of the Realms of the Sun and the Moon in the Flanaess (Sunndi and Celene). The current year (576 CY) on the Olven Calendar is 5038 OC.

BAKLUNI HISTOGRAPHY
In the year 2856 SD, Baklunish nomads established a holy site on Lake Karnoosh, which began the Bakluni Histography. The Baklunish would over the centuries transform from nomads to semi-nomads and finally into a wealthy, enlightened culture that extended from the Dry Steppes to the Sulhaut Mountains to the Drawmij Oceann and west to lands that are now a wasteland. Numerous river valleys, which are now gone, supported vast, glittering cities of a huge and rich Bakluni empire. In 5031 SD, the inevitable happened, and the two great empires collided in wars that lasted for decades and ended with the Twin Cataclysms.

FLANNAE TIMECHART
In 3250 SD, the Flan people of the Flanaess began counting their own time.
The Ur-Flan, Almeks, and Olman people had all been accomplished astrologers and stargazers. The Flannae Timechart was just one of such calendars that came into use -- the one used by the people of the north. The Flannae have often been cited as not being city-dwellers and empire-builders. And that is true, compared to the scale of other people. But the Flannae had their villages, ziggurats, holy sites, and hengestones, as well as stone tablets and hide scrolls which they used to record history in their own fashion. The current year (576 CY) is 2726 FT, as it is still kept in Tenh and parts of Geoff, where the Flan strains are still quite strong.

OERIDIAN RECORD
The Oeridian Record begins scant decades before the migrations of that people began in earnest. It is no doubt dated from the time of a great leader, who began to lead the people to the east. Only 160 years after this Record begins, the Suel-Baklunish wars began. The humanoid hordes were brought in from the far west to serve in the wars, and this pushed the Oeridians to the east. From Ull, they began migrating into the Flanaess. The Oeridians no doubt began keeping a calendar which they borrowed from the Bakluni or the Suel, and instituted their own "Year One." A couple of hundred years later, the Oeridians across the Flanaess were all using this Record, until the Overking of the Aerdy inaugaurated the Common Year One in 645 OR. As Aerdy expanded and conquered, the Calendar of the Common Year came into much broader use.

NOTES ON ARTIFACTS
AXE OF THE DWARVISH LORDS: This artifact dates from the "Age of the Gods" when the legendary figure known as first Dwarven King forged this weapon in the volcanic fires with the aid of a patron god, probably Fortubo or Moradin. It passed from dwarven monarch to dwarven monarch, probably in the Crystalmist or Sulhaut Mountains, until it was lost in the Invoked Devastation (implies that the ancient dwarf monarchy was in or close to the location of the ancient Bakluni empire). It shows up now and again, but now it is supposedly cursed.
BABA YAGA'S HUT: This artifact is indigenous to another Prime Material Plane, from a world parallel to Oerth. The owner may be an alter ego of Iggwilv, the witch Baba Yaga.
CODEX OF THE INFINITE PLANES: In the past, a wizard-priest [Yagrax?] of the Isles of Woe found this artifact and used it to dominate the lands around the Nyr Dyv. It is rumored these massive powers also caused the Isles of Woe to sink. The Codex survived this disaster, and was later used by the archmage Tzunk in his effort to conquer the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire.
CROWN, ORB AND SCEPTRE OF MIGHT: Each of the three main moral alignments had
its own champions -- Good, Neutrality and Evil. It is said that the great deities of the past created these items of regalia for their viceroys or chosen representatives on Oerth, so that there was an Emperor of Good, of Neutrality, and of Evil. These artifacts date from the late period of the "Age of the Gods", when the gods were beginning to battle each other through mortal representatives.
CRYSTAL OF THE EBON FLAME: This artifact may or may not be related to the Plane of Shadow, or the Realm of the Shadowking. No one knows for sure.
CUP AND TALISMAN OF AL'AKBAR: In the years following the Invoked Devastation,
the gods of the Paynims gave their lawful good high priest these precious artifacts. However, they were lost to demihuman raiders, and were last reported to be somewhere in the southeastern Bandit Kingdoms (Stoink? Dimre? Johrase? Artonsamay? Reyhu?).
EYE AND HAND OF VECNA: Not much is known of this greatest of evil liches, but
it is thought that he ruled a land somewhere on the Flanaess during or before the time of the Great Migrations. In any case, it is thought he was brought low due to the treachery of his trusted lieutenant, Kas, and an enchanted sword which he'd given the warrior. These two evil relics still exist, however, and from time to time pop up to cause havoc once again.
HEWARD'S MYSTICAL ORGAN: This huge pipe-organ is named after the quasi-deity,
Heward, and is mentioned in the Fables of Burdock. It is a great, cumbersome device, probably existing in some extradimensional space somewhere -- possibly accessed by the dungeons of Castle Greyhawk.
HORN OF CHANGE:
INVULNERABLE COAT OF ARND OF TDON: This chain shirt was worn by the legendary
priest Arnd, an Old Oeridian of some forgotten town in the far west. It probably dates from a time prior to the beginning of the Oeridian Record.

Re: Vecna, Kas, and the powers of his Sword

Date: Thu, 12 Aug 99 13:38PM PDT
From: "Nathanael. D. Wentz" Add To Address Book Add
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Vecna, Kas, and the powers of his Sword

As for the question of why Vecna didn't have -stoneskin-.... He did, it just didn't help him. This segues into my explanation of what I feel the powers of the Sword to be.

Wounding short sword +6 of sharpness

Sword Primary Abilities: detects magic, good, and invisible creatures in a 10' radius

Sword Extraordinary Abilities: All hits roll on the "critical" chart; sever targeted limb on rolls of 15-20; ignores opponent's armor; heal 1/day

Minor Benign Powers: detect magic, good, and invisible creatures within 60' when held and commanded;

Major Benign Powers: spell turning at will; regenerate x hp/rd (x equals an average of the wielder's constitution and level, divided by 10); haste (self only) at will;

Minor Malevolent Effects: possessor cannot own any other magical weapons;

Major Malevolent Effects: voluntarily touching the blade, scabbard, or hilt of the Sword results in permanent madness; any creature of less than 11 levels or hit dice who attempts to hold the Sword is blasted out of existence; creatures of less than 15 levels or hit dice who attempt to hold the Sword are stricken dead (no saving throw) and, if raised, are permanently insane; simply grasping the Sword requires mental combat with the Sword, failure equals complete submission; creatures of insufficient power (must have more than 100 hit points, STR, CON, and DEX must total more than 50) cannot use any of the extraordinary or major powers, attempting to do so results in immediate death; creatures of sufficient power to wield it must feed the Sword at least one human sacrifice per day or risk the Sword's wrath; If the wielder is killed while holding the Sword, he immediately withers and is reanimated as an undead guardian and slave of the Sword

Prime Powers: Instant death to one creature/month, no saving throw (this is effective against all but the most fantastically powerful creatures, DM's discretion);

Side Effects: The Sword cannot be more than 1" distant from its possessor; all creatures except for the owner that view the Sword must save vs spell or be stricken with fear; creatures killed by the Sword turn to dust;

As is quite obvious, I make artifacts very powerful indeed. It doesn't worry me, because no PC that will ever play in a campaign of mine can even pick up an artifact (especially Greater Artifacts, which list the Sword of Kas among their number) and survive. As such, I don't even know why I have them, except to explain things like the downfall of Vecna.

As for the "rebound" effect that killed Vecna.... I'm not especially fond of it, myself, but Vecna is simply too powerful to be killed in many other ways. I think that Vecna's last spell (as portrayed by me) was powerful enough to destroy himself, even if he had been at full strength and had all of his magical defenses in place. Venca just seemed to be the kind of guy that would focus on killing others before they killed him, instead of utilizing as many protective spells as he could have. Of course, it still wouldn't have saved him. The Sword of Kas would go through -stoneskin- in the same way a white-hot ingot of steel travelling at twice the speed of sound would go through the chest of the Stay-Puft Marshmallow man.

-- Nathanael D. Wentz, whose 29th level ninja/wizard has the hand and eye of Vecna, and wields the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords in his left and the Sword of Kas in his right
______________________________________________

"Et quacunque viam dederit fortuna sequamur."

Re: The final combat of Vecna and Kas

Date: Thu, 12 Aug 99 12:26PM PDT
From: Chris Anderson Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail Blocker
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] The final combat of Vecna and Kas (my version)

Ok, we've seen the stories. Now, I'm curious -- what powers has everyone given to Kas's sword? I don't have my listing at work, and I don't remember all of the details, but the gist was:

Highly intelligent CE +6 shortsword of Wounding.

Minor powers: regenerate 3hp/rnd, speed (attack 1st, add an additional attack/round), immunity to fire/acid, haste at will

Major Powers: Bestow magic resistance of 75%, Paralyze on touch, raise str/dex/con to 25 for 1 turn 1/day.

Major Effects: alignment changes to that of sword, cause fear in all who see the wielder, holy water burns character, user ages 3-30 years whenever the "raise str/dex/con" power is used.

Anyone else?

--
Chris Anderson


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nathanael. D. Wentz [mailto:nwentz@mail.saintmail.net]
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 11:17 AM
> To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] The final combat of Vecna and Kas (my version)
>
>
> Here's my version of the way it happened, in two parts. The first is in
> story form, the second in game terms.
>
> Vecna spun around as the door to his laboratory flew open.
> His gaze met Kas's for a split second, and then the battle was joined. Kas
> hurtled toward Vecna, his arm swinging the grey edge of the Sword forward as
> he closed on his master. Vecna, however, was not idle. Arcane energies
> spat and crackled in a nimbus of green fire about him as he loosed the fastest
> spell he knew.
> It wasn't fast enough. As the bolt of death sprang from Vecna's fingers, Kas
> plunged the Sword into his chest, the length of the blade shimmering with
> the black essence of the Sword's power. Kas, flaming, flew backwards across
> the room as fast as he had crossed it less than a second before. Even as he
> hit the wall behind him, Vecna was working a longer, but more deadly magic.
> Kas raised himself to his feet as Vecna uttered the last syllable of his
> final spell. Kas threw his arm out before him, his blackened fingers still
> clutching his weapon as the blast of magical energy reached him. The Sword
> blossomed with white flames, trying desperately to block the spell's effect.
> Vecna, seeing this, began to cast a spell of protection. Once again, he was
> too late. The sword was not wholly successful, however, as Vecna's power was
> too great for it to counter. The greater part of the spell's effects were
> turned, and even as Kas was blasted into his component atoms by the remnants
> of the spell, the magic rebounded from his blazing weapon, bathing the room
> in pale radiance. Vecna, too, was consumed in the ensuing explosion, a noiseless burst of light that flattened the castle and darkened the sky with
> upthrown debris. His hand and his eye slipped away in the streams of magic,
> and no evidence of the sword's passing was ever found.
>
> Ok, Kas first kicked in Vecna's door. Then he and Vecna rolled for initiative, which resulted in a tie of 1. Kas, wielding a magical sword of
> unrivaled power, had a weapon speed factor of 1, the time required for the
> casting of Vecna's spell, a lethal blaze of energy of his own devising, the
> mysteries of which were lost when he met his doom. Kas made his attack roll
> and scored a critical hit, as one of the powers of the Sword (IMC) is that
> all successful attacks are critical hits. Kas knew he had to kill Vecna
> before the lich could send his magics against him, and so had no time to use
> the spell turning power before. (Another one of the Sword's abilities, as I
> see it.) Kas's strike wounded Vecna grievously, as his blow was augmented by
> magics in the Sword. (Another power of the Sword is that upon the utterance
> of the command word, the next creature hit is instantly slain, no saving
> throw. Obviously, some things are too powerful for the sword to destroy so
> easily. This power is usable 1/month.) Vecna's first spell brought Kas down
> to less than a third of his hit points, and the final spell destroyed him
> completely, leaving nothing but a few teeth, fused together.
> The Sword, however, deflected much of the energy of the spell, which, no
> longer focused into a beam, blew the entire tower to kingdom come. The
> entire combat took less than 15 seconds, but saw the passing of two of the
> darkest villains ever to walk on the face of the oerth.
>
> As for the speed at which Vecna and Kas are operating, I'm assuming that
> both were magically augmented in that department. Kas, however, uses no
> spells or powers, relying the Sword to counter that end of things, while he
> was concentrating on the actual "stabbing to death" bit. Even so, they were
> not enough to survive a battle with Vecna, the most powerful spellcaster in
> recorded history.
>
> -- Nathanael D. Wentz, who admits a liking of flashy and noisy magical battles.