Greytalk Archives

Valsic Pantheon [DMD]

2012-02-05T22:01:00.000-08:00

[This one is a special treat, having been printed out -- not from my e-mail -- but from the OLD Greytalk Archive website. So here is a chance to see what it looked like back in 2005, along with an early take on the pantheon I worked out for South Province (and wrote about much better later for Canonfire!).]

Re: slerotin's passage, underoerth, the mother, drow,

2012-01-23T19:38:00.001-08:00

[I had previously posted this without the first three pages, but have since found them.]

The Merchant

2012-01-21T22:16:00.001-08:00

[Okay, let's try this again, but forget transcriptions. Too much work. And I've just discovered that my scanner can take good quality scans of text, so...]

The Kings & Queens of Keoland: a long list

2011-12-05T12:58:00.000-08:00

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:41:08 -0700
Reply-to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
Sender: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Chris Jarvis
Subject: [GREYTALK] The Kings & Queens of Keoland: a long list
X-To: Greyhawk List
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Okay, for everyone who wants to know what the future holds. And because I am getting deathly tired of writing the account of each individual monarch here is the big list.

A couple of notes:
1. Queen V'andree Z'entrull ruled Keoghland up until around OR 367 when she was ousted in the Great Rebellion. For about thirty years nobody was really in charge until Lord Jukka D'avros crowning himself king.

2. King Stiggur was not a nice person. He was fond of poison, surrounded himself with a cadre of killers and assassins, and generally had anyone who disagreed with him murdered. He was poisoned by members of the Angadral.

3. King Garridan was mad. He had most of his children drowned or set on fire. He went through about six wives. He was removed from the throne by the Angadral and was the last of the D'avros monarchs.

4. King Tavish I is credited with beginning Keolish imperialism. The Imperial might of Keoland reached its height under King Mhardos II. And pretty much ended with the death of King Tavish III at the Siege of Westkeep.

5. By the time Tavish IV came to the throne, everybody was pissed. He did his best to hold onto the crown but in OR 1125 died under an assassin's blade. Chaos reigned for about five years following his death.

6. From OR 1130 till OR 1168 a series of generals, mercenaries, and riff-raff attempted to hold the Black Lion Throne.

7. The Korie Dynasty came to the throne on the end of E'mund's spear in OR 1168. They held the throne until the untimely death of King Risto in OR 1208.

8. King Risto left behind him four sons, a fifth was born after his death. The oldest, Emrick, was only nine. And while the Angardral supported the Korie line, none were willing to risk the throne on one so young. The Angardral appointed Risto's chancellor as regent for the young prince. In OR 1215, on the eve of his coronation, Prince Emrick was struck down by an envenomed assassin's arrow. He died rather quickly and a fraction of Addathian Nationalists were blamed. Later that same year the thirteen year old Prince Just was killed in a hunting accident in the Axewood. In OR 1217, the twelve year old Prince Mathe drowned while boating on the Sheldomar. In OR 1221 the fifteen year old Prince Pitar was kidnapped by brigands and vanished into the Hool Marshes. In OR 1222, only the fourteen year old Prince Alric remains. This is the year in which my campaign is set-is the boy going to make it? What do you think?

The Kings and Queens of Keoland

Dynasty
Ruler
Crowned
Life span
Notes

Keogh
Brand Keogh
125
100-160
Founder of Keoghland

Rogan Keogh
160
104-171
Younger brother of Brand

Killian Keogh
171
123-197
Son of Rogan

Sean Keogh
197
172-220
Grandson of Brand

Ronan Keogh
220
195-232
Son of Sean

Merant Keogh
232
215-241
Son of Ronan

Adrich Keogh
241
220-250
Son of Ronan

Ore'elos
Druthox Al'Gra
250
130-274
Great Thamauturj of the Suel

La'ktar Phaulka
277
248-285

Du'ath S'sorkya
285
245-322

Korvee U'mothrok
322
230-330
First Witch-Queen

T'shim Valtross
330
270-352

J'arkor F'flokno
352 245-361

V'andree Z'entrull
361
340-?
Witch-Queen

D'avros
Jukka D'avros
392
352-420

Arto D'avros
415
372-437
Son of Jukka

Jussi D'avros I
437
403-440
Son of Arto

O'tuomo D'avros
440
381-472
Son of Jussi I

Jussi D'avros II
472
441-501
Great-grandson of Jussi I

Kosti D'avros
501
492-585
Boy king, Grandson of Jussi II

Mander D'avros
575
562-577
Boy king, Great-grandson of Kosti

Tobbar D'avros
577
559-582
Great-grandson of Kosti

Simon D'avros
582
550-602
Great-grandson of Kosti

Emalia D'avros-Restin
602
581-605
Queen, daughter of Simon

Dagga D'avros-Polasin
605
581-640
Queen, daughter of Simon

Stiggur D'avros
640
610-652
Son of Emalia

Garridan D'avros
652
622-694
Younger brother of Stiggur, Mad King

Restlin
Belgran Restlin
674
632-691
Proclaimed king by Council

Ivor Restlin
691
670-730
Son of Belgran

Tyvan Restlin
730
719-742
Boy king, Son of Ivor

Gregor Restlin
742
730-765
Boy king, Grandson of Ivor

Mhardos Restlin I
765
731-826
Son of Mhardos I

Faetor Restlin
802
751-826
Son of Mhardos I

Wolstan Restlin
826
810-853
Boy king, Grandson of Faetor

Khelvan Restlin I
853
821-907
Grandson of Faetor

Tavish Restlin I
900
880-945
Great-grandson of Wolstan

Khelvan Restlin II
945
922-981
Grandson of Tavish I

Tavish Restin II
981
960-992
Son of Khelvan II

Mhardos Restin II
992
975-1010
Son of Tavish II

Stephan Restin
1010
990-1034
Son of Mhardos II

Tavish Restin III
1034
1010-1097
Son of Stephan

Tavish Restin IV
1097
1080-1125
Great-grandson of Tavish III

Pretender Kings
Caspian V'adda Roarke
1130
1107-1132
Pirate and amge

Grayson Iron Stark
1142
1101-1145
Mercenary captain

O'ceana Elsen Polasin
1147
1117-1153
Warrior-queen, ambitious noblewoman

Kamral Ov Darth
1154
1120- ?
Half-orc adventurer

Jysson the Green
1154
1114-1154
Thief and mountebank

Meganwald Stormcloud
1154
1082-1157
Pretentious mage

Astorghan Redhand
1157
1117-1168
Brigand-Knight

Korie
E'mund Korie
1168
1102-1175
Stable boy, soldier, and finally king

Vaino Korie
1175
1107-1190
Younger brother of E'mund I

E'mund Korie II
1190
1158-1201
Son of E'mund I

Risto Korie
1201
1174-1208
Son of E'mund II

Kimbertos Skotti
(1223)
1180-

Re: [GREYTALK] GH WARS

2011-11-27T11:11:00.000-08:00

Subj: Re: [GREYTALK] GH WARS
Date: 98-08-04 17:07:18 EDT
From: froon@HOL.FR (Patric Forno)
Sender: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (The GREYtalk Discussion List)
Reply-to: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (The GREYtalk Discussion List)
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Hello Jason, Roger and the list,

-- Message d’origine –
>If you’d like to discuss the events of the Greyhawk Wars with someone and
>work on it as a team, I’d certainly be willing to bounce ideas back and
>forth with you. In particular, I’m very interested in the chronology of the
>Fall of the Sea Princes for my _Saga of Saltmarsh_.
>

Jason, I wanted to answer you privately, but I thought I might get helped better if I mailed the whole GH community. After all, GH is there for this purpose !

I also mailed this to Roger Moore, because I suspect him of having want I want (an Official GH WARS Timeline).

Sorry, nothing on the Sea Princes from me (there is close to nothing concerning dates in the official material).

I have an enormous problem with the GH WARS : I think the wars lasted from 582 to 585, and it is very confusing for me.

The reason for the confusion is the following :

-Goodmonth 584 : Aerdy nuked Almor & Chathold (WARS, 19 Ivid the Undying). The Month of Goodmonth is written in one of those sources, certainly WARS. It must be 584 because the raid from Osson must be in 583 (cannot be in 582 because the whole Vatun affair started in the fall of 582), and Osson is said to “winter” in the Medegia IIRC, with Ivid’s army on the other side of the border, waiting him. So it seems that the crushing of Almor was next year (so 584).

-Later it is told that Ivid V took the leadership of his armies, thinking the Almorian success was due to his strategic skills. He then entered Nyrond and is repelled. He is said to command from Rauxes, using spells and device, and this is a disaster. [IMO, TSR assumes this to happen in the fall of 584 (though this is written anywhere)].

-Then we learn that Ivid is slain during Richfest (not told which year) (WARS,21). As the story is told it is meant to be after the fall of Almor. But Richfest is BEFORE Goodmonth, so the assassination of Ivid V must be in Richfest 585 !!!

So the meeting at Greyhawk must be in Harvester 585, not 584 and the Day of the Great Signing must be in Coldeven 586, not 585. What a mess….

I can’t believe what I’ve just written, and I think it is false, but I would like to know WHERE it is false.

Maybe it is the fall of Almor who is in Goodmonth 583, and not 584 ? I don’t know, and all this WARS affair begins to get me mad !!!!

That’s why I would like to have an OFFICIAL Timeline for the WARS, and I don’t even ask for a monthly one (it would be good anyway), just an EXACT yearly one would suffice !!!!

I don’t ask for a telling of the WARS as the one in the WARS Boxed Set, I would like to see a TIMELINE. I was very confused by the telling of the whole story in the WARS Boxed Set, and even more confused with all errors that slipped in WGR4 and WGR5 about the WARS. For example, WGR5 p 4 tells that the breaking of Chendl’s siege was in Fall 584, but I can’t believe that Chendl has been besieged for a full year (the siege began in 583, isn’t it ?).

I hope Roger has one.

Regards

--------------
Patrice Forno – Marseille – France
froon@hol.fr
Les Fauconniers Gris (ggf@rmm.fr)
Liste de diffusion sur Greyhawk (Oerth@rmm.fr)

Thin Greyhawk Page : http://wwwperso.hol.fr/~froon/GH/FrGRey.htm
French WiF Page : http://wwwperso.hol.fr/~froon/WiF/wif.htm

Jacques Villeneuve Champion du Monde avec B.A.R. !!!
Go Jacques Go !!!

Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project

2011-02-28T10:46:00.000-08:00

[greytalk] Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project
Monday, December 4, 2006 12:15 PM
From: "Scott"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Hi all,

Marc-Tizoc wrote:
>Finally, let's focus on my "Adventure 1" idea, and incorporate my and Scott's suggestions. Let's have the adventure being with the PCs traveling from Bissel into Veluna, escorting (informally as fellow travelers or formally as caravan guards) a group of pilgrims on their way to a unique temple that features Delleb as a saint of Raqo in the city of Devarnish. On their way and well within the Archclericy,<[snipped]

I'm happy to concede location back to Bissel, as long as it is a "civilized" area in Bissel. My thinking is that too near the Bramblewood or Dim Forests, men would be too fearful of monstrous incursions to leave their forts abandoned, and we are talking about the antagonists in the first scenario holing up in ruins. Along the Veluna, or even the Gran March, border, security would be much more lax and forts left forgotten.

> the pilgrims are raided by the worg-riding goblins I suggested (adapting Scott's suggestion of kobold antagonists). Do you then prefer the goblins to take the noble captive (and others) into the Kron Hills or the Gnarley Forest?<

It needn't be so far, even if we did place the scenario in Veluna. I was thinking in the foothills of the Lorridges.

I had moved my suggestions away from worg-riding goblins because they're so Tolkein, and moved away from the lamia boss idea because I've previously written a scenario where a lamia was the boss villain(ness). Revisiting both hold less appeal for me, as does trying to do Tucker's kobolds again (I already own Dragon Mountain if I wanted that).
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

Why does no one ever suggest Tucker's Yak-Men?

Re: Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project

2011-02-28T10:42:00.000-08:00

Re: [greytalk] Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project
Saturday, December 2, 2006 5:50 PM
From: "Joseph Bloch"
To: "David Argall"
Cc: ""Marc-Tizoc \"González\""" , greytalk@canonfire.com

If I may suggest something that might be fun and/or interesting...

In the spirit of "Tucker's Kobolds" (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/), why not make the challenge to the PC's increase as the actual HP value of the monsters decreases?

That is, start with "standard" high-HD humanoids like gnolls or ogres.

Then start with ever-better-prepared lower-HD humanoids. A hobgoblin ambush. Then a well-coordinated orc raid. Then a delve into a well-defended goblin camp. Etc. (Those are, obviously, just examples; not a suggestion for the actual encounters).

I think the notion of this sort of "inverted" series of modules, where the challenge grows as the monsters themselves become less individually tough, could be a neat hook to get people interested into playing and running it.

Whatcha think?

Joseph

David Argall wrote:

>>let's focus on my "Adventure 1" idea, and
>>incorporate my and Scott's suggestions. Let's have
>>the adventure being with the PCs traveling from
>>Bissel into Veluna, escorting (informally as fellow
>>travelers or formally as caravan guards) a group of
>>pilgrims on their way to a unique temple that
>>features Delleb as a saint of Raqo in the city of
>>Devarnish.
>>
>>On their way and well within the Archclericy, the
>>pilgrims are raided by the worg-riding goblins I
>>suggested (adapting Scott's suggestion of kobold
>>antagonists). Do you then prefer the goblins to
>>take the noble captive (and others) into the Kron
>>Hills or the Gnarley Forest?
>>
>>
>>
> Now a few negatives to consider.
>
> If we start with goblins, going down to kobolds is
>just wrong. Our kobolds are supposed to be nuisance
>monsters, not something that might test the party if
>they can handle goblins, on worgs yet. We need to
>move up the hd chain to orcs, gnolls...
>
> We are talking about goblins on worgs [cr2]
>leading the party to lamias [cr6] Unless we just flood
>the scene with unacceptable numbers of goblins, this
>means the party will find one encounter a cakewalk, or
>the adventure a deathtrap. Maybe both.
>
> This is a trial effort by somewhat unskilled
>labor. That means we need to limit the new stuff.
>Anything new is a risk anyway and we will just be
>asking to misjudge these new monsters, again making
>the adventure too easy or hard. As much as we can, we
>should stick to generic.

Re: Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project

2011-02-28T10:40:00.000-08:00

Re: [greytalk] Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project
Saturday, December 2, 2006 5:21 PM
From: "David Argall"
To: "Marc-Tizoc González" , greytalk@canonfire.com

> let's focus on my "Adventure 1" idea, and
> incorporate my and Scott's suggestions. Let's have
> the adventure being with the PCs traveling from
> Bissel into Veluna, escorting (informally as fellow
> travelers or formally as caravan guards) a group of
> pilgrims on their way to a unique temple that
> features Delleb as a saint of Raqo in the city of
> Devarnish.
>
> On their way and well within the Archclericy, the
> pilgrims are raided by the worg-riding goblins I
> suggested (adapting Scott's suggestion of kobold
> antagonists). Do you then prefer the goblins to
> take the noble captive (and others) into the Kron
> Hills or the Gnarley Forest?
>
Now a few negatives to consider.

If we start with goblins, going down to kobolds is just wrong. Our kobolds are supposed to be nuisance monsters, not something that might test the party if
they can handle goblins, on worgs yet. We need to move up the hd chain to orcs, gnolls...

We are talking about goblins on worgs [cr2] leading the party to lamias [cr6] Unless we just flood the scene with unacceptable numbers of goblins, this means the party will find one encounter a cakewalk, or the adventure a deathtrap. Maybe both.

This is a trial effort by somewhat unskilled labor. That means we need to limit the new stuff. Anything new is a risk anyway and we will just be asking to misjudge these new monsters, again making the adventure too easy or hard. As much as we can, we should stick to generic.

Yours for less government

David Argall

Re: Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project

2011-02-25T09:14:00.000-08:00

Re: [greytalk] Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project
Saturday, December 2, 2006 10:57 AM
From: "Marc-Tizoc González"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

I'm happy to continue using the GreyTalk listserv, since this was one of my first and most frequent forum in which to contribute. I mentioned the CF! fora and the GreyChat because those places have much more active contributors, and some of them have specifically stated their reasons for eschewing GreyTalk.

Regarding Jim's suggestion to use the EEG, I'm happy to do so because I've translated the "Malgoth" that Greg Vaughn introduced (and Wizards incorporated in the Hordes of the Abyss) into an aspect or avatar of the EEG, which forgot its origin and developed independent sentience in my Shadows on the March campaign. As I've imagined and campaigned it so far, the Malgoth in Istivin is being "countered" by the drow expatriates of House Eilservs (information not yet discovered by my PCs).

However, I think that later on, the GreyChat will be useful for the project because recorded realtime communication is highly efficient. Regarding JZ's objections, I think they were always misplaced due to his personal inability to accept criticism. As anyone whose texts have been edited knows, the ability to accept criticism does not come naturally but rather is a process of socialization and recognition of the importance of one's audience.

Finally, let's focus on my "Adventure 1" idea, and incorporate my and Scott's suggestions. Let's have the adventure being with the PCs traveling from Bissel into Veluna, escorting (informally as fellow travelers or formally as caravan guards) a group of pilgrims on their way to a unique temple that features Delleb as a saint of Raqo in the city of Devarnish.

On their way and well within the Archclericy, the pilgrims are raided by the worg-riding goblins I suggested (adapting Scott's suggestion of kobold antagonists). Do you then prefer the goblins to take the noble captive (and others) into the Kron Hills or the Gnarley Forest?

MTG

Scott wrote:

Hi all,

Marc-Tizoc wrote:
>1. Whether to use GreyTalk for our development, or instead to request a dedicated message board folder on Canonfire!, such as the one used for the Gran March Project;<

I would not participate on Canonfire! directly. The whole point of this was to re-energize the Greytalk list! But if people wanted to work on it on Canonfire!, I would post my feedback here and anyone could make use of it as they saw fit.

>and 2. Whether to discuss the project more via the GreyChat, either at its regularly scheduled Thursday evening meeting, or at another time.<

I couldn't make that, especially not at the regular time, and I fear anyone left out of the chats would feel cut out of the brainstorming loop (remember Zavoda's anti-chat rants?).

>I'd like some more public discussion and in particular, specific comments on ideas I suggested.

>For example, Scott suggested that we shift the first adventure's start site from Bissel to Veluna. I'm fine with that change although I proposed Bissel to account for a poster's (Basiliv?) preference to include ancient Baklunish culture and also because placement in Bissel lends itself better to shifting toward the Quag Lake region that at least two posters indicated interest in.<

A worthwhile reason to keep the first adventure focused in Bissel. I suppose I am biased by preferring Veluna as a setting.
>However, I have some old material on Devarnish, a walled town that the FtA era Flanaess map introduced. Devarnish is relatively near the Kron Hills and has been mentioned as part of the area the Keoland occupied in several old documents. I forget if this was in Joe Katzman's old histories or one of its permutations, e.g., Kirt Wackman's OJ article (and its earlier versions), or Samwise's histories, or Gary Holian's writings.<

I don't recognize the name, but hopefully someone will and come forward.

>Regarding Scott's other ideas about stopping an ancient goblin / kuo-toa alliance, I'm intrigued but have little to comment, except that it comes across as featuring higher level magics, e.g., a gate.<

The gate would not be accessible, and only backstory info until, perhaps, the third adventure.

>Thinking about it more, I think it unlikely that goblins and kuo-toa would ally, especially with their respective devotion to Gruumsh and Blibdoolpoolp, two gods not known for their alliance (although I like the idea that another Power might be at work).<

That's how desperate things got in the final days of the Hateful Wars (though, if you believe Living Greyhawk tournaments, the Lorridges are still full of giants!). I like Jim's suggestion, from another post, about the Elder Elemental God having a hand in this.

>Regarding the Horned Society connection, I'd suggest that this agent knew of the historical alliance and then visited the Lorridges to seek its remnants after receiving such orders from the coalescing Hierarchs in Greyhawk City.<

Much better than what I suggested.

>Overall, however, I suggest that Scott proposed a new adventure idea. I think the real trick of starting a collaborative project will be to agree to a basic outline for the adventure. Right now, we're probably still in the brain-storming phase.<

Perhaps I did, but I don't mind anything I threw out there being vetoed or overwritten. The important thing is to keep sharing more stuff, even if it is tangental to what is currently being discussed. Any ideas that can't be used "now" might be shifted into the next adventure or the one after that.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project

2011-02-25T08:27:00.000-08:00

[greytalk] Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project
Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:23 AM
From: "Scott"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Hi all,

Marc-Tizoc wrote:
>1. Whether to use GreyTalk for our development, or instead to request a dedicated message board folder on Canonfire!, such as the one used for the Gran March Project;<

I would not participate on Canonfire! directly. The whole point of this was to re-energize the Greytalk list! But if people wanted to work on it on Canonfire!, I would post my feedback here and anyone could make use of it as they saw fit.

>and 2. Whether to discuss the project more via the GreyChat, either at its regularly scheduled Thursday evening meeting, or at another time.<

I couldn't make that, especially not at the regular time, and I fear anyone left out of the chats would feel cut out of the brainstorming loop (remember Zavoda's anti-chat rants?).

>I'd like some more public discussion and in particular, specific comments on ideas I suggested.
>For example, Scott suggested that we shift the first adventure's start site from Bissel to Veluna. I'm fine with that change although I proposed Bissel to account for a poster's (Basiliv?) preference to include ancient Baklunish culture and also because placement in Bissel lends itself better to shifting toward the Quag Lake region that at least two posters indicated interest in.<

A worthwhile reason to keep the first adventure focused in Bissel. I suppose I am biased by preferring Veluna as a setting.

>However, I have some old material on Devarnish, a walled town that the FtA era Flanaess map introduced. Devarnish is relatively near the Kron Hills and has been mentioned as part of the area the Keoland occupied in several old documents. I forget if this was in Joe Katzman's old histories or one of its permutations, e.g., Kirt Wackman's OJ article (and its earlier versions), or Samwise's histories, or Gary Holian's writings.<

I don't recognize the name, but hopefully someone will and come forward.

>Regarding Scott's other ideas about stopping an ancient goblin / kuo-toa alliance, I'm intrigued but have little to comment, except that it comes across as featuring higher level magics, e.g., a gate.<

The gate would not be accessible, and only backstory info until, perhaps, the third adventure.

>Thinking about it more, I think it unlikely that goblins and kuo-toa would ally, especially with their respective devotion to Gruumsh and Blibdoolpoolp, two gods not known for their alliance (although I like the idea that another Power might be at work).<

That's how desperate things got in the final days of the Hateful Wars (though, if you believe Living Greyhawk tournaments, the Lorridges are still full of giants!). I like Jim's suggestion, from another post, about the Elder Elemental God having a hand in this.

>Regarding the Horned Society connection, I'd suggest that this agent knew of the historical alliance and then visited the Lorridges to seek its remnants after receiving such orders from the coalescing Hierarchs in Greyhawk City.<

Much better than what I suggested.

>Overall, however, I suggest that Scott proposed a new adventure idea. I think the real trick of starting a collaborative project will be to agree to a basic outline for the adventure. Right now, we're probably still in the brain-storming phase.<

Perhaps I did, but I don't mind anything I threw out there being vetoed or overwritten. The important thing is to keep sharing more stuff, even if it is tangental to what is currently being discussed. Any ideas that can't be used "now" might be shifted into the next adventure or the one after that.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

Yak-Men have a 2nd-level spell called brain storm that makes it rain brains on the enemy...

Re: Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project

2011-02-25T08:12:00.001-08:00

Re: [greytalk] Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project
Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:38 PM
From: "Marc-Tizoc González"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Hey folks,

Thanks to Scott's public response and two other posters' private responses. With four interested people, we can form a good working group and should make some decisions, such as:

1. Whether to use GreyTalk for our development, or instead to request a dedicated message board folder on Canonfire!, such as the one used for the Gran March Project; and

2. Whether to discuss the project more via the GreyChat, either at its regularly scheduled Thursday evening meeting, or at another time.

I'd like some more public discussion and in particular, specific comments on ideas I suggested.

For example, Scott suggested that we shift the first adventure's start site from Bissel to Veluna. I'm fine with that change although I proposed Bissel to account for a poster's (Basiliv?) preference to include ancient Baklunish culture and also because placement in Bissel lends itself better to shifting toward the Quag Lake region that at least two posters indicated interest in.

However, I have some old material on Devarnish, a walled town that the FtA era Flanaess map introduced. Devarnish is relatively near the Kron Hills and has been mentioned as part of the area the Keoland occupied in several old documents. I forget if this was in Joe Katzman's old histories or one of its permutations, e.g., Kirt Wackman's OJ article (and its earlier versions), or Samwise's histories, or Gary Holian's writings.

Regarding Scott's other ideas about stopping an ancient goblin / kuo-toa alliance, I'm intrigued but have little to comment, except that it comes across as featuring higher level magics, e.g., a gate.

Thinking about it more, I think it unlikely that goblins and kuo-toa would ally, especially with their respective devotion to Gruumsh and Blibdoolpoolp, two gods not known for their alliance (although I like the idea that another Power might be at work).

Regarding the Horned Society connection, I'd suggest that this agent knew of the historical alliance and then visited the Lorridges to seek its remnants after receiving such orders from the coalescing Hierarchs in Greyhawk City.

Overall, however, I suggest that Scott proposed a new adventure idea. I think the real trick of starting a collaborative project will be to agree to a basic outline for the adventure. Right now, we're probably still in the brain-storming phase.

MTG
PS - Please comment publicly so as to encourage further participation. If you really prefer private emails, please explicitly instruct me to respond privately.

Scott wrote:

Hi all,

Marc-Tizoc wrote:
>As I count ‘em, six ideas have been contributed:[snipped]

Can this guy organize or what?

I agree we should keep to, at most, three linked adventures. If we can actually pull that off as a group, THEN we could get more ambitious. I also think we will have more participation if, instead of splitting writing chores up evenly, we simply repost what we have so far with something(s) new added each time, so that everyone has the chance to flesh out any part of the adventure, and more and more levels of detail are slowly added.

>Adventure 1: The PCs are raided by worg-riding goblins while traveling on a road in Bissel. The PCs best the goblins, but some NPC traveling companions are taken captive as the goblins flee. Following their trail, the PCs enter the nearby hills and find the goblins’ lair, which is based in old (Oeridian or Flan) ruins. The dungeon beneath the ruins is controlled by lamia(s) (noble?), which dominate the goblins.

>If successful, the PCs recover their traveling companions, learn that one of them is a nobles’ scion, and return her/him to her/his ancestral keep, thus gaining a noble patron. The PCs may also find signs that indicate the involvement of the Horned Society <

My thoughts: Can we jog this adventure across the Lorridges to Veluna? My thinking is that Bissel is more of a frontier area than Veluna and old forts are less likely to be left abandoned on the frontier. Now, in nice, safe Veluna, I could see a lot of old forts from the Hateful Wars being left abandoned. Who needs them now?

In the final days of the Hateful Wars, a tribe of goblins found unexpected allies in a hidden enclave of kuo-toa. Still not expecting their coalition to turn the tide of war, they instead pooled their shamans and priests and prayed for help to Gruumsh and Blibdoolpoolp. They, or something else, answered those prayers and whisked a large group of goblins and some kuo-toa through a temporary gate to somewhere else.
Now the goblins and kuo-toa that disappeared all those years ago have come back, and returned changed. The goblins are shorter, more gargoyle-like in appearance, and have innate cantrips/glamours. The kuo-toa have become fire-based creatures, capable of generating fireballs between two or more of them. They only lacked a leader, having known whisked away with them. That was before a will-o-the-wisp found them, and remembered them. A hundred years ago, this will-o-the-wisp had been a young boggart aiding the goblins and witnessed the departure. It cannot communicate with them, but it can literally lead them as a guide. It led them to an old fort, abandoned some 60 years now, near the Lorridges and they began using it as their base. Now they are abducting people to sacrifice, hoping it will open the gate to somewhere else so more of their kind can come back.

The transmorgrified goblins and kuo-toa are becoming so successful that an agent of the Horned Society has already sought them out and found them. And the goblins could have worgs too. Thoughts?

Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project

2011-02-24T12:55:00.001-08:00

[greytalk] Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project
Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:05 PM
From: "Scott"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Hi all,

Marc-Tizoc wrote:
>As I count ‘em, six ideas have been contributed:[snipped]

Can this guy organize or what?

I agree we should keep to, at most, three linked adventures. If we can actually pull that off as a group, THEN we could get more ambitious. I also think we will have more participation if, instead of splitting writing chores up evenly, we simply repost what we have so far with something(s) new added each time, so that everyone has the chance to flesh out any part of the adventure, and more and more levels of detail are slowly added.

>Adventure 1: The PCs are raided by worg-riding goblins while traveling on a road in Bissel. The PCs best the goblins, but some NPC traveling companions are taken captive as the goblins flee. Following their trail, the PCs enter the nearby hills and find the goblins’ lair, which is based in old (Oeridian or Flan) ruins. The dungeon beneath the ruins is controlled by lamia(s) (noble?), which dominate the goblins.

>If successful, the PCs recover their traveling companions, learn that one of them is a nobles’ scion, and return her/him to her/his ancestral keep, thus gaining a noble patron. The PCs may also find signs that indicate the involvement of the Horned Society <

My thoughts: Can we jog this adventure across the Lorridges to Veluna? My thinking is that Bissel is more of a frontier area than Veluna and old forts are less likely to be left abandoned on the frontier. Now, in nice, safe Veluna, I could see a lot of old forts from the Hateful Wars being left abandoned. Who needs them now?

In the final days of the Hateful Wars, a tribe of goblins found unexpected allies in a hidden enclave of kuo-toa. Still not expecting their coalition to turn the tide of war, they instead pooled their shamans and priests and prayed for help to Gruumsh and Blibdoolpoolp. They, or something else, answered those prayers and whisked a large group of goblins and some kuo-toa through a temporary gate to somewhere else.
Now the goblins and kuo-toa that disappeared all those years ago have come back, and returned changed. The goblins are shorter, more gargoyle-like in appearance, and have innate cantrips/glamours. The kuo-toa have become fire-based creatures, capable of generating fireballs between two or more of them. They only lacked a leader, having known whisked away with them. That was before a will-o-the-wisp found them, and remembered them. A hundred years ago, this will-o-the-wisp had been a young boggart aiding the goblins and witnessed the departure. It cannot communicate with them, but it can literally lead them as a guide. It led them to an old fort, abandoned some 60 years now, near the Lorridges and they began using it as their base. Now they are abducting people to sacrifice, hoping it will open the gate to somewhere else so more of their kind can come back.

The transmorgrified goblins and kuo-toa are becoming so successful that an agent of the Horned Society has already sought them out and found them. And the goblins could have worgs too. Thoughts?

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

Yak-Men ride "worgs," but those are giant robot wolves that fire missiles...

Re: Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project

2011-02-24T12:27:00.000-08:00

Re: [greytalk] Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project
Tuesday, November 28, 2006 6:55 PM
From: "Marc-Tizoc González"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Great to see the list alive!

While I appreciate Joseph Bloch’s comment (and am excited to see him post!), one of Dungeon’s new ideas, the “Campaign Arc,” seems useful for the proposed project and much more viable than a GreyTalk Adventure Path. The Campaign Arc is basically a trilogy of adventures, much like the old modules’ series.

In addition to three adventures being more manageable than twelve, the smaller number of proposed adventures may encourage participation from people interested in different regions of the Flanaess. We could form one or more working groups, perhaps even inspiring each group by providing updates via the list.

As I count ‘em, six ideas have been contributed:

1. Basiliv’s list of locations, characters, and monsters;
2. Gerall Kahla’s suggestions re investigating UnderOerth or the Sea of Dust;
3. David Argall’s suggestion to start in Keoland before venturing west;
4. Aeolius’s suggestion re hags;
5. Scott Casper’s ordered list of locations; and
6. Scott’s ideas about old school monsters and specification re Furyondy and the Cold Marshes

Because I presently campaign in Sterich, I am generally more interested in the western Campaign Arc idea (starting in Keoland, venturing to the Yeomanry, and then into Slerotin’s Tunnel and the Sea of Dust). However, I’d prefer not to design an adventure into the Crystalmist-Hellfurances UnderOerth or the Sea of Dust, since they’ve already been explored in published modules, LGJ or OJ articles, or Randy Richards.

I propose adapting and integrating the ideas into the following:

Adventure 1: The PCs are raided by worg-riding goblins while traveling on a road in Bissel. The PCs best the goblins, but some NPC traveling companions are taken captive as the goblins flee. Following their trail, the PCs enter the nearby hills and find the goblins’ lair, which is based in old (Oeridian or Flan) ruins. The dungeon beneath the ruins is controlled by lamia(s) (noble?), which dominate the goblins.

If successful, the PCs recover their traveling companions, learn that one of them is a nobles’ scion, and return her/him to her/his ancestral keep, thus gaining a noble patron. The PCs may also find signs that indicate the involvement of the Horned Society

Adventure 2: The noble asks the PCs to investigate the ruins further. While doing so, they are meet a small expedition commissioned by Evard the Black (a fact initially unknown to the PCs) to investigate the ruins. If the PCs are hostile, the NPC party responds in kind. If the PCs cooperate, the NPC party repays the PCs by asking their further help with a nearby fort (in the Bramblewood?). Along the way, the parties encounter kech, giant spiders, and ettercap. If the PCs defeat these monsters, they attract the attention of the hag covey that oversees this part of the woods.

At the fort, the PCs learn that kobolds are assembling significant warbands, apparently intending to raid into the Highvale. Skirmishing with or scouting them, the PCs are separated from the remaining NPCs. Should the PCs return to their noble patron in Bissel, she or he sends them back, as scouts for a larger force. Should the PCs act otherwise, eventually they should enter the Highvale and help defeat the kobold raiders, reuniting with the remaining NPCs, and meeting an elven sage in Highfolk, who informs them about the hag covey in the Bramblewood, discusses what the PCs have learned about the Horned Society, and attempts to recruit the PCs to investigate the hag covey.

Adventure 3: The PCs attempt to locate the Bramblewood hag covey, whether they were persuaded by the Highfolk sage or so instructed by their noble patron (who has unknown to the PCs become dominated by a lamia noble that is antagonistic to the covey).

Their discovery of the covey’s apparent cave domicile leads them beneath the mountains, where they encounter at least one roper and unwittingly enter a conflict between illithids, githzerai (or githyanki), and cloakers. The PCs may tip the balance or be smashed on the scales. Additionally, they may find the remaining hags (who have fled the surface due to the lamia noble’s machinations) to be implacable enemies or wary allies.

After significant conflict, the PCs fight their way to the surface and find themselves in Perrenland, near Lake Quag.

***

I’ve run out of time to produce ideas for how to connect this part of the adventure to the Cold Marshes and to incorporate further ancient Flan or Baklunish cultures.

I really like Scott’s suggestions regarding the conflict between the Blackwater hag covey and Iuz!

MTG

Scott wrote:

Hi all,

Public interest in the new cooperative project seems to have died off already, or at least publicly. Still...

"Aeolius" wrote:
>In BPAA, I devised the Covyn; three hag coveys, one epic-level
covey, and one leader - 13 hags in all.

>As far as other hags go I've been working on a few, starting with
the squalus. Much as a winter hag is the offspring of a greenhag and
ice troll and the dune hag is born of the union between wasteland
troll and greenhag, the shoal hag or squalus is parented by a
greenhag and scrag.

>I'm also revamping my Blackwater (new domain from Stormwrack)
hags. Envision the remains of a slain sea hag covey, animated into a
single undead creature by Blackwater. I got my inspiration for the
three-made-one from this: http://www.designtoscano.com/images/us/
local/products/viewlarger/DB51037_vl.jpg Considering how many hags I
am likely to unleash upon Turucambi, I think the Blackwater Hag will
be [expletive deleted]-bent upon slaying her living sisters.<

Perhaps one of these coven of hags has come to Furyondy to kidnap someone important (the Viscount of the March? his wife?) and take him deep into Iuz's territory. Everyone will assume this is Iuz's plot, but Iuz's forces are after the hags too to get their hands on their prisoner. The hags are actually delivering a sacrifice to a blackwater hag in the Cold Marshes. In exchange for the sacrifice, the blackwater hag will stop trying to kill the other hags.

Anyone interested in working on that?

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project

2011-02-24T12:24:00.000-08:00

Re: [greytalk] Re: Greytalk Cooperative Project
Monday, November 27, 2006 4:13 PM
From: "LASSEK,CHRISTINA/J TEMPLE"
To: "Scott"

I'm still game, just been working on my current campaign.

That sounds good...maybe throw in some Crimson Deaths. :-) Since we're in the neighborhood, we could even involve some elements of Blackmoor...

~Jim

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 07:47:11 -0800 (PST)
Scott wrote:
> Hi all,
> Public interest in the new cooperative project seems to have died off already, or at least publicly. Still...
> "Aeolius" wrote:
> >In BPAA, I devised the Covyn; three hag coveys, one epic-level covey, and one leader - 13 hags in all.
>
>> As far as other hags go I've been working on a few, starting with
> the squalus. Much as a winter hag is the offspring of a greenhag and ice troll and the dune hag is born of the union between wasteland troll and greenhag, the shoal hag or squalus is parented by a greenhag and scrag.
>
>> I'm also revamping my Blackwater (new domain from Stormwrack)
> hags. Envision the remains of a slain sea hag covey, animated into a single undead creature by Blackwater. I got my inspiration for the three-made-one from this: http://www.designtoscano.com/images/us/ local/products/viewlarger/DB51037_vl.jpg Considering how many hags I am likely to unleash upon Turucambi, I think the Blackwater Hag will be [expletive deleted]-bent upon slaying her living sisters.<
> Perhaps one of these coven of hags has come to Furyondy to kidnap someone important (the Viscount of the March? his wife?) and take him deep into Iuz's territory. Everyone will assume this is Iuz's plot, but Iuz's forces are after the hags too to get their hands on their prisoner. The hags are actually delivering a sacrifice to a blackwater hag in the Cold Marshes. In exchange for the sacrifice, the blackwater hag will stop trying to kill the other hags. Anyone interested in working on that?
> ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
> Yak-Men are interested in the Viscount of the March's wife too...

Re: [greytalk] Re: Knights of the Watch

2011-01-28T14:35:00.000-08:00

Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:30 AM
From: "Chris Anderson"
To: "Marc-Tizoc González"
Cc: greytalk@canonfire.com

I've always envisioned Ket as being culturally like the Seljuk Turks. Tusmit, Ekbir, and Zeif would be more like the Arabic cultures of Baghdad circa 800-1000AD. Ull is the Mongol equivalent (I confess ... the city of Ilkhan did that for me) and the Paynims are the moral equivalent of the Empire of Tamerlane for me, sans Samarkand.

For me, Ket, Bissel, and Veluna would have much the same tensions that Byzantium and the Turks had... not because of religion, but because of competing cultures. Which would make Bissel the Outremer of Keoland... except that we have no crusades. :-)

Personally, I think the idea of a Crusade from the Flanaess into Baklunish lands is silly, unless somehow the Suloise remembered their history, got organized, and got seriously mad. Mad in both meanings of the term, too.

So, it would never happen.

-- Chris
On 3/19/07, Marc-Tizoc González wrote:
Thanks to all for responding. This level of historical information is one of GreyTalk's strengths.

Rafu mentioned that the comparison between civilized Bakluna and the Ottoman Empire is off and suggested comparing the Baklunish to pre-Ottoman Arabs is better.

He and Chris Anderson also distinguished the factors of Earth's Crusades and the sociopolitical situation between the Kingdom of Keoland, Veluna, and Ket. It's interesting that an Oerthly crusade seems unlikely given Keoland's failure to hold what it tried to conquer during its historical expansionism.

In contrast, the uncivilized Bakluni nomads have twice invaded substantial regions of the Flanaess.

MTG

Raffaele Manzo < raffaele.manzo@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why did many of the Crusades seem to originate in kingdoms of France and
> England? Is that historically inaccurate?

Historically accurate or not, I think we tend to get such an impression because those two kingdoms were the two largest unified political entities within Roman Catholic Europe during most of the Middle Ages (the two which stand out resembling "nations" to our modern eyes).

As an aside, since you mentioned the Crusades... I believe the Knights of the Watch have something of the (historical Crusades-era) Templars. Templar Knights were "soldier monks" tasked with defending the small Christian "kingdoms" in the Holy Land - a shard of Western Europe surrounded by Arab nations. In a sense, if you think of "greater Keoland area" states as a Western Europe, and of Bakluni as Arabs, then you've got Western Europe and Near East sharing a long border - longer than any Holy Land kingdom was large (though nearly impassable mountain ranges do help) - and the Watchers patrolling it. Of course, you can only draw so much similarities... You won't have any "Crusades" in the Flanaess, at least not "Watcher-nations vs
Baklunish states" Crusades. Real world Crusades were born from politically opposed peoples *not* sharing a geographical border, but sharing a distant cultural heritage which brought both sides to hold a certain place as "holy". If you look ad Baklunish states vs. Gran March, Keoland etc. you're looking at politically opposed peoples who
*do* share a border, but having no common cultural heritage whatsoever (a much more common situation in the majority of real-world conflicts as well).

Oh, yes... and I would *not* liken the Bakluni to the Ottoman Empire. Pre-Ottoman Arabs is a much closer call, I believe.

____
Rafu
(the gamer formerly known as "Lord Raphael")
http://victordraconem.blogspot.com

RE: [greytalk] Looking for a Bakluni War God

2011-01-28T14:31:00.000-08:00

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 4:40 PM
From: "Marc-Tizoc González"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

I agree. Al'Akbar as a righteous war / sun god, and Azor'alq as the noble paladin / fakir (is that the right word?).

LGJ 3 described Azor'alq (formerly of Pinnacles fame) and connected him in very interesting ways to Al'Akbar and the Bakluni struggle against evil / darkness.

MTG

"Vest III, Robert W" wrote:
I think Al'Akbar &/or Azor'alq are probably the closest thing the Baklunish have to war gods.

Rob Bastard
Bastard Greyhawk: http://homepages.ius.edu/rvest/Greyhawk.html
Age of Worms: http://www.ghoulgamers.com/viewforum.php?f=73
Greyhawk on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Greyhawk

-----Original Message-----
From: Basiliv [mailto:basiliv@cablespeed.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 10:36 PM
To: greytalk@canonfire.com
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Looking for a Bakluni War God

Official info on the Baklunish gods is sparse, so you might want to see what fan material is available.

But you can get just about everything officially available about them by consulting 2 sources:

1) The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer: This has a write-up of all of the Baklunish gods of Demigod status or higher. Each write-up is about 4 paragraphs, which is a lot more than many of them had in the past. But what I think is especially useful are the
write-ups of the Bakluni nations, and the religious conflicts add a nice dimension to this small pantheon.

2) Living Greyhawk Journal #3: This one may be questionable by some, as the real write-ups in here are of several Hero-Gods of Greyhawk. Several figures that were little more than names were turned into Hero-Gods, and a few of these are Bakluni in origin. But I mention it because, divine or not, the backgrounds of these figures provide a good addition to the religious conflicts I mentioned above.

Other than that, for official sources you've really just got several write-ups of Istus:

Greyhawk Adventures hardback
From The Ashes boxed set
1983 boxed set -- this also has a write-up of Xan Yae

I think that's about it. Hope this helps!

~Jim (Basiliv)

On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 22:39:14 -0400
"Aluvial" wrote:
> I'm looking for information about Baklunish gods.
> Especially a war god if any.
>
> I know that the Suel got a special writeup at some point... I was
>wondering about the Bakluni.
>
> Aluvial

Re: Greyhawk Human Skill Sets

2010-10-10T13:16:00.000-07:00

Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Human Skill Sets
Friday, April 20, 2007 5:53 PM
From: "Tom Roberts" Add sender to Contacts
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Might this be of help, from Basiliv back in mid Nov of 05...

Not sure if anybody else is interested in this, but I've finally completed my adjustments to Erik Mona's "Regional Feats of Greyhawk" for the 576 timeline.

Most of the changes made were inspired by Aaron Divinsky's work on this same issue, so a huge thanks to Aaron. I changed several of his ideas, but I used more of them than not. One thing Aaron did that I really liked was to differentiate nations we might naturally lump together, such as the Ulek and Urnst states. I added differences between the wood and wild elves, and between the various Thillonrian Barbarians.

Aaron added (and I kept) several feats from the FR setting books, namely:
- Bullheaded: FR Campaign Setting
- Artist: FR Campaign Setting
- Cosmopolitan: FR Campaign Setting
- Discipline: FR Campaign Setting
- Forester: FR Campaign Setting
- Militia: FR Campaign Setting
- Stormheart: Player's Guide to Faerun
- Swift & Silent: Player's Guide to Faerun
- Thug: FR Campaign Setting

So here's my list. For more info on the original articles, see Dragon
issues 315 & 319.

CHARACTER REGIONS

Race/Region
Feat
Almor, Prelacy of
Border Watch, Noble Soul, Well Read, World Weary
Baklunish
Elemental Focus, Horselore, Jinnbond, Tongue of Mouqol
Bandit Kingdoms
Badge of Bondage, Blooded, Jungle Fighter, Orc Blooded, Raider's Spirit, Rapscallion
Bissel
Blooded, Border Watch, Mercantile Background, Mercenary Background, Tongue of Mouqol
Blackmoor
Blackmoorian Rhymes, Expert Dungeoneer, Lays of the Northern Adepts, Wastri's Blessing
Bone March
Blooded, Landless Nobility, Orc Blooded, Raiders Spirit, World Weary
Bright lands
Blooded, Desert Fighter, Lore of the Ur-Flan, Vathrin Stigmata
Celene
Companion Guard Style, Ehlonnas Way, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Well Read
Dwarf, hill
Bullheaded, Dwarflore, Expert Dungeoneer, Mercantile Background, Mercenary Background, Mountain Fighter
Dwarf, mountain
Bullheaded, Deepseer, Dwarflore, Expert Dungeoneer, Mercantile Background, Mountain Fighter
Dyvers
Cosmopolitan, Mercantile Background, Rapscallion, Rhennlore, Well Read
Ekbir
Great Fervor, Mercantile Background, Spirit of the Sea, Well Read
Elf, gray
Companion Guard Style, Elflore, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Tested, Well Read
Elf, high
Ehlonnas Way, Elflore, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Tested, Well Read
Elf, valley
Defensive Expert, Elflore, Gnomelore, Mountain Fighter
Elf, wild
Ehlonnas Way, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Forester, Tested
Elf, wood
Driftwalker, Ehlonnas Way, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Tested
Flan
Badge of Bondage, Horselore, Lays of the Northern Adepts, Lore of the Ur-Flan
Frost Barbarians
Driftwalker, Mountain Fighter, Raiders Spirit, Troll Blooded, Vatuns Touch
Furyondy
Blooded, Border Watch, Exercises of Arnd, Noble Soul, Rustic Charm, Well Read
Geoff
Blooded, Border Watch, Giantkiller, Mountain Fighter
Gnome, deep
Deepseer, Expert Dungeoneer, Mercantile Background, Noble Soul
Gnome, rock
Gnomelore, Mercantile Background, Rapscallion, Rustic Charm
Gran March
Blooded, Border Watch, Born Follower, Mercantile Background
Great Kingdom
Badge of Bondage, Celestial Scion, Fiendsign, World Weary
Greyhawk
Expert Dungeoneer, Fiendsign, Greyhawk Method, Mercantile Background, Rhennlore, Well Read, Zagygs Favor
Half-elf
Elflore, Noble Soul, Rapscallion, Well Traveled
Half-orc
Badge of Bondage, Mercenary Background, Raiders Spirit, Rapscallion
Halfling,lightfoot
Halfling Lore, Mercantile Background, Noble Soul, Well Traveled
Halfling, stout
Deepseer, Halfling Lore, Mercantile Background, Well Traveled
Halfling, tallfellow
Elflore, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Halfling Lore, Well Traveled
Highfolk
Border Watch, Ehlonnas Way, Elflore, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Forester, Mercantile Background
Horned Society
Fiendsign, Great Fervor, Swift & Silent, Thug
Ice Barbarians
Driftwalker, Mountain Fighter, Raiders Spirit, Stormheart, Vatuns Touch
Idee
Blooded, Border Watch, Defensive Expert, Militia
Irongate
Border Watch, Defensive Expert, Dwarflore, Mercantile Background, Mountain Fighter, Well Read
Iuz
Badge of Bondage, Blooded, Fiendsign, Orc Blooded, Raiders Spirit
Keoland
Giantkiller, Rustic Charm, Silent Method, Wastri's Blessing, Well Read
Ket
Badge of Bondage, Blooded, Border Watch, Mercantile Background, Tongue of Mouqol
Lordship of the Isles
Badge of Bondage, Jungle fighter, Mercantile Background, Spirit of the Sea, Well Read
Medegia, See of
Celestial Scion, Fiendsign, Great Fervor, Well Read
North Province
Badge of Bondage, Celestial Scion, Fiendsign, Orc Blooded
Nyrond
Blooded, Border Watch, Exercises of Arnd, Rustic Charm, Sagacious Method, Well Read
Oeridian
Blooded, Born follower, Exercises of Arnd, Noble Soul
Olman
Atlan's Mark, Badge of Bondage, Jungle fighter, Raider's Spirit
Onnwal
Blooded, Mercantile Background, Stormheart, World Weary
Pale, Theocracy of
Born follower, Great Fervor, Noble Soul, Troll Blooded
Paynims
Bareback Soul, Blooded, Horselore, Mercenary Background, Raider's Spirit
Perrenland
Driftwalker, Fiendsign, Mercenary Background, Mountain fighter
Pomarj
Badge of Bondage, Blooded, Mountain fighter, Orc Blooded, Raider's Spirit, World Weary
Ratik
Border Watch, Exercises of Arnd, Mountain fighter, Vatun's Touch
Rel Astra
Celestial Scion, Fiendsign, Mercantile Background, Nexus Method, Well Read
Rhennee
Rapscallion, Rhennlore, Second Sight, Well Traveled
Rovers of the Barrens
Bareback Soul, Blooded, Horselore, Raider's Spirit, World Weary
Scarlet Brotherhood
Badge of Bondage, Great Fervor, Jungle fighter, Spirit of the Sea
Sea Barons
Badge of Bondage, Mercantile Background, Rapscallion, Spirit of the Sea
Sea Princes, Hold of the
Badge of Bondage, Blooded, Jungle Fighter, Spirit of the Sea, Wastri's Blessing
Shield lands
Blooded, Border Watch, Defensive Expert, Noble Soul
Snow Barbarians
Driftwalker, Mountain fighter, Raider's Spirit, Stormheart, Vatun's Touch
South Province (Ahlissa)
Badge of Bondage, Celestial Scion, Mercantile Background, Rustic Charm, Well Read, World Weary
Spindrift Isles
Elflore, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Spirit of the Sea, Well Read
Sterich
Blooded, Border Watch, Giantkiller, Mountain fighter
Stonefist, Hold of
Driftwalker, Mercenary Background, Mountain fighter, Orc Blooded, Raider's Spirit, Vatun's Touch
Suel
Blood of Kord, Heir of Lendore, Pureblooded Suel, Well Read
Sunndi
Border Watch, Defensive Expert, Elflore, Rustic Charm, Wastri's Blessing
Tenh, Duchy of
Blooded, Border Watch, Mercenary Background, World Weary
Tiger Nomads
Badge of Bondage, Bareback Soul, Horselore, Raider's Spirit
Tusmit
Great Fervor, Mercantile Background, Mercenary Background, Mountain Fighter
Ulek, County of
Gnomelore, Halfling Lore, Mercantile Background, Noble Soul
Ulek, Duchy of
Elflore, Mercantile Background, Mountain Fighter, Noble Soul
Ulek, Principality of
Dwarflore, Landless Nobility, Mercantile Background, Mountain Fighter
Ull
Bareback Soul, Fiendsign, Mercenary Background, Mountain fighter, Orc Blooded, Raider's Spirit
Urnst, County of
Mercantile Background, Rapscallion, Rustic Charm, Well Read
Urnst, Duchy of
Mercantile Background, Mountain fighter, Rapscallion, Rustic Charm
Valley of the Mage
Defensive Expert, Mountain fighter, Shadowbound, Well Read
Veluna
Great Fervor, Noble Soul, Rustic Charm, Well Read
Verbobonc
Gnomelore, Great Fervor, Elflore, Mercantile Background, Well Read
Wild Coast
Badge of Bondage, Blooded, Rapscallion, Spirit of the Sea
Wolf Nomads
Bareback Soul, Blooded, Horselore, Raider's Spirit
Yeomanry
Blooded, Defensive Expert, Militia, Mountain fighter, Noble Soul
Zeif
Badge of Bondage, Orc Blooded, Spirit of the Sea, Well Read

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Weber"
To: ; "Vest III, Robert W"
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Human Skill Sets

> From: "Vest III, Robert W"
>
> >A few years back in Dragon, Erik Mona had two articles (IIRC, one was in
> >the Dark Sun issue, & another was in the first Campaign Classics issue,
> >which had Strahd on the cover) featuring Greyhawk-specific feats, many
> >of which had a racial or national focus.
>
> I have those in PDF (OCR) format on my hard drive for whenever I get a
> chance to run a GH campaign again.

HackMoor XVIII - Conclusion of the Palace of the Vampire Queen

2010-10-10T13:04:00.001-07:00

HackMoor XVIII - Conclusion of the Palace of Vampire Queen
Thursday, June 28, 2007 1:11 AM
From: "Tracy Johnson" Add sender to Contacts
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Cast of Characters:

Absalon: A Human Enchanter
St. George: A Human Defender of Heironious
Jon: A Human Doobie Friar of Heironeous
Thor: Human Captain
Arioch: A Half-Elven Male Knight of the Shifting Sands
Sreighin Thorn: Pixie Sprite Sigil of Primus (Sidekick of Arioch)
Lace: Drow Fingersmith (Female Albino with Male Pattern Baldness)
Grumpy: Human Altar-Boy of Loviatar
Lucius: High-Elf Bravo
Bill: Veteran (recently deceased, but corrected.)
Crystal Kross - Human Mortician and several Zombies

This report covers several sessions.

Because the Blackmoor area isn't canon Greyhawk I'm more free to make up stuff. The timeline is per the DA1 modules, but I use Arneson's map.

The party that stayed behind from the previous session waited a sufficiently long
time to ensure that whatever was going to happen had completed. Emerging from
their hiding place in Room 16 they found the hallway empty. They take the long
way around to get to the next staircase.

(To fit the time line, this is the time the new Vampire recruited Party members are coming up the stairs. Going the short way opposite the party, they check out
where the party was hiding and find them not. Meanwhile the main party is going
down the stairs and close the soundproof doors behind them.)

Seeing the Hallway unguarded and armed with the Player maps, they set their two
strongest characters at the lead, taking no chances to make a beeline for the
lowest level. They whack the few Orc guards at the bottom of the stairs from
Level 2 to 3. To their credit, the guards were careless for their own safety and
bang the gong alarm, dying at the only stroke.

The Ghouls that populate the immediate vicinity will pop out two rounds later from
a nearby room. They are told of scrambling footsteps coming from beyond
double-doors. Not wanting to deal with threats on this level, they take a left
turn and close the door behind them. Finding themselves in another short hallway,
they duck behind another door, and get spat several times by a Giant Slug.*

* This is OD&D, so it is not unusual the type of random monsters they threw in for
no apparent reason.

Frying the slug with some fire-based solution (I forget if it was a spell or just
oil,) they head through two double doors to a 'V' intersection with a chest there.
Not resisting temptation, they open it only to be a attacked by a Wight. The
lead character fends off a close call attack while another Wight pops out the next
round. The smartest one of the Players gathering the hint, makes a dive for the
chest and closes the lid, thus making the Wights disappear. Whew! They thought
they would have to at least fight the remaining Wights.

Backing out of that corridor, the party skirts the edge of this level and their
Elf thief detects the secret passage to the next level en passant.

This time they were mindful of the Gnoll Guards and use a ruse to trick them so
they can't sound another alarm. Past that, they pause in the room with the
Lammasu statue but decline to investigate and continue on, skipping all doors to
the next staircase. There they encounter 6 main Vampire Guards and finally take
some hits. It took some serious spell casting (and aim) by Absalon with his Magic
Missiles of Skewering.

(Forgetting Vampire combat parameters, I only docked the players one experience
level when hit. When my error was noted to the other players next session, I
decided to let it go rather than backtrack the experience loss.)

It was after this skirmish that Players realized Vampires can only be hit with
Magical Weapons. They reallocated hoarded weapons accordingly.

Taking the obvious route on the map on the last level, they head for the BIG ROOM,
pausing to take in scenery afforded by passing doors. Behind door #6 they run
into a Flesh Golem, so taking a cue from an old movie they set him alight with
some of their oil and leave the area, where cries of "Fire, ... Bad!" fade in the
distance.

(In the time line the Vampire Recruited party members on Level 1 get the alarm and
head back to this room. I roll a 20 sider and it tops at 16, I start decrementing
that number of 1 minute rounds it will take to get here.)

Lastly, they make it to the BIG ROOM, crash the door down and defeat the next six
Vampires using hand to hand combat and the last of Absalon's Magic Missiles and
their Wand of Fire from Castle Amber. Their superior armor class let the higher
members of the party avoid hits, but Lucius takes a hit and goes to -1 and dies.

The 20 sider is down to 9.

Worrying about Lucius later, the party goes in to the next room with 4 Vampires
and uses the last of their Scatterblast Fireballs to eliminate them.

The 20 sider is down to 5.

In the next room the party sees a Female Vampire reclining across a gold plated
coffin with a slight smile on her face. The party exhausted, decides to take a
breather and backs out. Wondering what else to do, they discover another secret
door behind them and retreats in there and close the door behind them. SUCCESS!
This is the Dungeon's treasure room. Absalon, using much needed time to
rememorizes lower level spells, has the party block the door and takes a rest
while he studies.

The 20 sider is down to 0 and the Vampire Recruit reinforcements arrive.

Taking stock of the treasure room, they find a pile of money of course, a Ring of
Undead Utilities (the closest thing in Hackmaster to the original Ring of Undead
Control,) a Scarab of Death, Eyes of Charming, and one of their goals, the Pinball
Machine of Wishes (Saonuihun's Speeding Sphere Game from the Book of Wondrous
Inventions.)

Meanwhile on the other side of the door, entrapment bars had slid down to keep the
intruders in the Treasure Room (killing one reinforcement Gnoll leaning against
the wall.) This worked out to the advantage of the Main Party. Thor on the other
side of it took several minutes to Break the Bars so he could attack his own party
on the other side.

The Pinball Machine has been recently refurbished as it had been taken by Baylor
Island's Mechanical Dwarfwerks for Maintenance so it ran in tip-top condition
without any of the usual adverse reactions. Waiting for the bars to be broken,
they had plenty of coins in the room so they decided to play. They got as far
Absalon memorizing 3 spells and gaining Two Wishes when they decide to sortie.
The first wish de-webs the Player from the Machine.

As soon as the bars were almost broken through, Grumpy 'warns' the enemy to leave
the room or die. The Thralled party members take the hint and back out. The
party fireballs the next room and crisps most anything left. Next, Grumpy uses
the Ring of Undead Control, takes control of the Ghoul reinforcements and has them
turn about and fight the 'living' reinforcements. Both sides cancel each other
out with low level monsters leaving the Thralls and the remaining true Vampires.

Using the Ring of Undead Utilities again Grumpy takes control of the Vampires and
uses the 2nd Wish to de-Thrall the party members. Thus armed, he storms into the
room with the Lady Vampire. This vampire, seeing which way the wind is blowing
simply says, "Hey, I'm just the decoy! The Real Vampire Queen is in the next room
behind another secret door."

Though the next secret door they find the Vampire Queen. She turns out to be a
wuss and attempts to flee in bat form. A lucky swat knocks her silly to the floor
and she is dispatched without further ado, wooden stakes, decapitation, and
whatever else is required.

Obviously, there will be much Experience Awarded for this event. There is still
stuff in the Palace that needs to be cleaned up. The party has to decide to do
this or let the Dwarves finish the job when they re-occupy the Palace.

-- BT

Tracy Johnson
Justin Thyme Productions
Ye olde free telnet games at:
http://hp3000.empireclassic.com/

RE: Sorta Off-Topic: Political Intrigue?

2010-10-10T12:55:00.000-07:00

RE: [greytalk] Sorta Off-topic: Political Intrigue?
Wednesday, August 8, 2007 1:25 PM
From: "Karl White" Add sender to Contacts
To: basiliv@cablespeed.com, "'GREYTALK'"

You may want to look at Atlas Games’ Dynasties and Demagogues sourcebook. It contains a lot of material about creating and running political adventures and campaigns.

In the last campaign I ran, ToEE and beyond that started from 1st level, I mapped out the main protagonists and power groups in advance. This included:

· The deities
· The leaders of the temple
· The power groups in Hommlet and Nulb
· The wider Verbobonc power groups and the regional groups.

Having read through the module several times I started to ask how and why the leaders had the powerful magic items they had, how they interacted with each other, what their operational responsibilities and reporting lines were, any relationships and so on and so forth. I found that once I started asking questions and providing answers, that the richness of the setting increased dramatically.

In the end I had about 15 different power groups that the party were interacting with either directly or indirectly in a way that shaped events in the game. In many cases an event occurred that the party had no knowledge of and would not come directly into play but would affect the campaign.

For example The bandit group at the start were concentrating on attacking Elven caravans rather than human ones. This was due to their leader’s wish to have Celene’s relations with Verbobonc sour and to close the border. The humans, not losing many caravans did not put a great deal of effort into stopping them. Meanwhile the spy leader who reports to the Temple is aware that the caravans he is identifying as good targets are not always being taken, whilst more well defended, lower value targets are being targeted. He knows another intelligence agency must be at work to pick the targets and would normally think that there is a subversive element in the Temple and root it out, but he is also aware that somebody else has been promoted and has responsiblity for recruiting for the temple, which is a role he used to be tasked with. He is now unsure of his position and is wondering if he has disappointed his masters. By the party driving off/capturing/killing the Bandit leader, the trade caravans resume their normal targeting and the relations between Celene and Verbobonc resume as Verbobonc takes a greater interest in the loss of its caravans.

The party found that they had more trouble from the good factions than the evil. They broke a Gnomish Law (in my campaign I had Verbobonc originally owned by the Gnomes and thus the laws are derived from Gnomish Law) and the St Cuthbertines were insisting the law was enforced whilst the Druids, rangers and state (through the wizard) were pleased the party had driven off the bandits and did not think that exiling them for something that was in their eyes merely a (serious) protocol mishap was the wisest course of action. Things were very tense for a while until the bandit leader killed the druid leader and the family of the rangers leader, then it got worse. The rangers went after the bandit leader thereby abandoning their post (it took many weeks to catch him and left the rangers weakened and in the Wild Coast) and the St Cuthbertines took control of the village so that the rule of law could be re-established. The party was exiled and the village was poorly defended and severe political in-fighting between the church, state and the Gnomes throughout Verbobonc occurred. Eventually leading to full Gnomish autonomy when the state found the only way to appease the church was to change some ‘out-dated Gnomish Laws’.

Why did the party have such an impact when they were only mid level? Look at the demographics of the state. With the Greyhawk demographics including population by level and class it turns out there are very few mid-level character classes and the party would be a significant resource for the state in its fight against the Temple. With the rangers gone, exiling the party would have left the Hommlet region very exposed to the now apparent Temple.

I guess my final point is, look at the background population, there may be fewer personalities than you would consider and the players can soon have a major impact if they are in the nation’s top 50 most powerful people

From: basiliv@cablespeed.com [mailto:basiliv@cablespeed.com]
Sent: 07 August 2007 19:40
To: GREYTALK
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Sorta Off-topic: Political Intrigue?

The level is flexible; for one group, they'll be somewhere between 7-10th (depending on where I put it in the campaign), for the other the level will be wide open because we'll roll up new characters just for this. The 7-10th level group is very familiar with my DMing style, the other group is not yet...although I could run them through some more standard fair if it's an advantage for the players to be familiar first.

My long-time players tend to like an overarching mystery, interspersed with fairly "standard" dungeon crawls, city adventures, or overland action. For an example of our usual style of play, here's a list of the adventures I strung together to get my PCs to 6th level, with an overarching mystery I described earlier, set in the original '83 boxed set:

- Intro to my amnesia/alternate Greyhawks campaign, starting in a cave south of Hommlet.
- Mad God's Key (Dungeon Adventure), changed to a cult of Orcus
- An altered version of Dungeon's "Shut-In", with a xvart culprit to lead to:
- An altered version of Mona's River of Blood, set in Verbobonc
- T1: Village of Hommlet
- Some overland travel to an oracle in Perrenland, then south through the Vesve for a small incursion into Delvenbrass, where a gate lead to:
- The City Beyond the Gate
- Returning from this adventure, the party is transported unknowingly to an alternate, FtA-era Oerth, where the overrun city of Chendl surprises them.
- Overland travel to Safeton, where eventually the party locates their secret contact. This shadow-dancer takes them to the Plane of Shadow, and eventually back to 576-era Oerth.
- They follow a priest of Iuz south across Woolly Bay, and I ran them through Stormwrack's "Shatterhull Isle"
- C1: Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
- West to the base of the Hellfurnaces, where they discovered the lost Suloise city of Lov Ulos, which served as one end of the tunnels in:
- UK6: All That Glitters

The over-arching mystery was covered in more detail months ago, but a quick recap is that the PCs were brought here from the FtA-era 'Hawk, their memories wiped out, and now they're seeking the ochtycs (?sp)...they don't know if yet, but they used to be demigods, and the ochtycs will allow them to regain a portion of their power and eventually go after the Soul Husks to take Iuz down a notch.

Once the party reached the Sea of Dust (at the end of All That Glitters), we switched DMs, so that's where things currently stand. My next plan is some interaction with the Silent Ones of Keoland, some information-brokering with an agent of Evard, a trip through White Plume Mountain, and eventually the ToEE. At this point I haven't decided whether to make the Great Kingdom material before or after the ToEE.

On Mon Aug 6 17:03 , Marc-Tizoc "Gonzá¬¥z" sent:

What level will the characters start? Are the players experienced in general and with your DMing? Please describe your usual style of play / DMing.

MTG

basiliv@cablespeed.com wrote:

Hi MTG (and kiddies),

Didn't really have any plans yet. I thought I'd try my hand at some general political intrigue adventures, then re-read Ivid for ideas. My group has swapped DMs for a while, so I've got a lot more down-time to work on this than I'd usually have. In the meantime, my plan was to read through Scott's South Province reports (sadly, I never had time to read them before -- sorry Scott!). I also thought about looking into the reviews of some Birthright adventures, but that's a guess on my part.

But in general, I was hoping for more guidance on the pacing of this type of adventure, interesting ways for PCs to use skills that might be unique to a political environment, etc. (that's why I thought it was off-topic). Plotting our the political entanglements isn't where I'm worried, it's running a new type of adventure and keeping it interesting for the players. But once I get this figured out, I'll be more than happy to share. :-)

Thanks again for your help!

~Jim (Basiliv)

On Fri Aug 3 20:23 , Marc-Tizoc "GonzÃ¯Â¿Â½lez" sent:

Jim and fellow GTers,

I apologize for not sending this email earlier as I'd hoped.

Jim, I suggest you provide a few more details. Where you base your initial campaign is important for helping us provide further suggestions.

For example, I've imagined a campaign based in North Province that deals with the ramifications of Grenell's machinations regarding the fall of Bone March, starting in one of the coastal towns, Bellport, for example, and developing the PCs' knowledge about Grenell's miscalculation / betrayal, along with the Iron Schism, as it plays out with the church armies of Hextor, that center of training for Hextor sohei (Arrowstrand?), and featuring the distaff death knight that Gary Holian detailed.

Alternatively, Scottenkainen has reported repeatedly on his campaigns in the South Province.

Do you get my drift? Share more of your ideas, so we can riff off yours.

MTG

Re: Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk

2010-09-09T10:48:00.003-07:00

Re: [greytalk] Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk
Sunday, October 7, 2007 2:55 AM
From: "basiliv@cablespeed.com"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Now that I've finished it, I'm recommending it even more. Great stuff.

Also, I just found a bunch of the maps available at higher resolutions on the Wizards site: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20070812a

On Tue Oct 2 16:44 , Marc-Tizoc "Gonzï¿½lez" sent:

Since I haven't read it stated here, I think all GH fans should purchase this product immediately.

Not only is it one of the only recent GH publications, it was, as Jim said, obviously produced with love and respect for the setting.

Because of that, I think GH fans will find it entertaining, interesting and inspirational regarding their own GH campaigns, regardless of what game system they use.

MTG

basiliv@cablespeed.com wrote:

It's more reminiscent of Return to White Plume Mountain than, say, Return to the Keep on the Borderlands. What I mean is, it's set years after the original module, rather than just being a revamp/expansion on the original.

Expedition is more of a campaign, with story threads leading the PCs back & forth between the Free City (and the Green Dragon Inn) and the castle. It provides more of an overall plot and less of a catalogue of brief room summaries like the original. I really liked the original, and there's quite a bit of goodness in there that isn't covered in Expedition, but the areas it covers are more fleshed out and are tied to the otherside world better than Ruins was.

But as far as actually comparing the two, so far I think they've stayed fairly true to it. There are definitely several areas that are straight out of the original, but with some changes you might expect by advancing the clock by twenty years. I'm not quite done reading it yet (starting chapter 5 ou of 6 now), but I think the surprises it holds will be more value than the rehashing. Very obviously a product of love for the campaign setting. :-)

On Mon Sep 24 19:00 , "Michael Weber" sent:

Has anyone had the chance to compare this to WGR1, Greyhawk Ruins?

Savage Tide campaign -- session 1

2010-09-09T10:43:00.000-07:00

[greytalk] Savage Tide campaign -- session 1
Monday, October 15, 2007 10:25 AM
From: "Scott"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

While waiting for one friend to start his Expedition to Castle Greyhawk campaign, I have begun playing in another friend’s Savage Tide campaign. I will share my spoiler-ridden observations here.

SPOILERS!
SPOILERS!
SPOILERS!

The first session did not, from my perspective go well at all. Our DM had stressed how our live sessions were going to be strictly for adventuring and we were to do our role-playing on his messageboard. I understood from this that the campaign would then start with the standard dungeon crawl, so I brought my seven-year old son along to play, who always enjoys killing monsters, but few of the subtleties of gaming.

Instead, we were presented with a mystery to solve. All the guys loved seeing the handout, a hot portrait of our sponsor, Lady Vanderborne. The harbormaster, or rather, his right-hand man Vark, would not let her onto her own ship, the Blue Nixie, and she wanted to find out why. If it had been the ghost of Captain Redbeard keeping her off the ship, this could have been a Scooby-Doo mystery. We all split up to look for clues, with the plan of meeting back up two mornings later to compare notes. My character planned to pass himself off as one of Vanderborne’s creditors and interview the harbormaster about repossessing the ship, or at least touring it for an evaluation. To do this, my bard found employment with one of Sasserine’s moneylenders and gained a tabard and seal that identified himself as an employee, bought fancier clothes to complete a disguise, and filled out the required paperwork to see the harbormaster, but was dismissed with a “don’t call us, we’ll call you” comment. Meanwhile, my son was entertained with a barroom brawl where he got to kill someone. Almost more disturbing was how much he enjoyed having his character drink beer.

The real trouble for me started on the next player’s turn. Our DM was using home rules for social class, and one of the PCs was of unusually high birth. Where I had a long-term plan for getting on board the Blue Nixie, he just walked in with the other party members, bullied his way past the harbormaster, and got right onboard the ship. I had refused to come, believing their plan would fail and my plan would be needed as back-up. After all, our DM had given us an investigation. The direct approach seemed the wrong way to go about it. Turns out I was wrong – you really are meant to rush onto the ship and kill everyone aboard it as if the ship was a mini-dungeon. I missed out on everything. My son’s character hopped onboard a rowboat and made it out to the battle just in time to participate in the very end of it. The battles on the ship were laughably easy, with the one on deck against the crew taking five rounds and the one with the monster below deck taking only one round. My son and I had missed that the battle was over and were waiting for round two!

This is “Savage” Tide? More like Anemic Tide, I thought. We did not even stay for the last half-hour.

Quest for the Octychs, Prologue

2010-09-09T10:39:00.001-07:00

[greytalk] Quest for the Octychs, Prologue
Sunday, March 9, 2008 7:23 PM
From: "basiliv@cablespeed.com"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

After a long hiatus into Mystara, my group has decided to switch back to my Greyhawk campaign. Since it's been close to a year since the last adventure on Oerth, I've started writing up campaign recaps for my players, and I thought I'd share with the list.

It's not that they're amazing, it's that the list is quiet. ;-)

We play 3.5 Edition, but set in a pre-Wars 576 CY Flanaess. This whole campaign idea was inspired by Erik Mona's adventures "River of Blood" and "As He Lay Dying", so if you're reading this Iquander, thank you. :-)

P R O L O G U E -- "WHERE AM I?"

Four adventurers awoke within a cave. The first was a halfing sorceress name Bitola, a wanderer who liked to disguise herself as a human girl for any benefit she could ring from it. The second was Ulgret of the Fruztii, a Suel-blooded man commonly known as a Frost Barbarian. He possessed an incredible ability to recover from wounds, coupled with a strange dislike of sunlight. Third was Ithilor, a rogue from the olven nation of Celene. This sylvan elf did not consider himself a fighter, but his mobility was a boon to his companions. Last was the company's holy man, a cleric of Olidammara. A renowned tavern brawler in his own mind, one too many mugs to the head caused him to forget his own name -- his friends called him "Preach".

As each member of the party looked around, they found that they had no idea where they were. Worse, each realized that their memories were gone, with only childhood dreams remaining. As this frightening thought took hold they saw each other, and there was recognition. Although none remembered why or how, they each knew the other, and knew they were among friends.

A noble-looking human entered the room and asked after their welfare. Each of the companions immediately knew him as Tellek, another old friend. After making them comfortable, Tellek asked them to reach under their pillows, to retrieve the envelopes found there. Each contained a letter, and each companion recognized their own handwriting. Even more convincing, each recalled a childhood memory they had never shared with anyone. The letters then explained that they voluntarily had their memories erased, for their own protection, and that they would be restored when he time was right. The letters concluded by advising what the party already knew instinctively; they should trust Tellek, and each other.

Tellek told the group that they would receive prophetic help in finding their course of action. He apologized for not being able to provide any more detail, but gave assurances that he would do everything in his power to help them. He then asked that they follow him into a neighboring chamber of the cave.

A fire lit the far side of the room, but it was otherwise dark and difficult to see. A strange voice spoke from the darkness, alternately sounding like two voices and then one. Introducing themselves as The Sisters, the voice(s) told the adventurers that they should proceed to the City of Dyvers, to seek a locksmith named Theldrat, and to obtain that which he held most dear.

Puzzled by this entire affair, the party was given some guidance by Tellek. On their way out of the cave, Tellek informed them that he was a holy warrior in the service of Pelor. He would do what he could to aid them, using his church's reputation and his family's influence to make contacts where needed, to perform research, and to provide magical communication between the party and The Sisters. He told the adventurers that this cave lay a few miles south of the village of Hommlet, and told them the safest route from there to Dyvers. Showing them the road, he returned to the cave.

Re: Castle Greyhawk - 100th page!

2010-09-05T11:05:00.000-07:00

Re: Re: [greytalk] Castle Greyhawk - 100th page!
Tuesday, August 14, 2007 3:47 PM
From: "Gary Gygax"
To: "Joseph Elric Smith" , "The GREYtalk Discussion List"

Greetings Seekers!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Elric Smith"
To: "The GREYtalk Discussion List"
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 3:41 PM
Subject: SPAM: Re: [greytalk] Castle Greyhawk - 100th page!

> we always did and still do, wonder what the sage was smoking to say you
> didn't apply the damage twice
> ken
>
> Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
> Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
>
> Slice N Dice: Game and Pizza Parlour
>
> WWBYD What would Brigham Young do ?
> Blog http://www.aeonity.com/arioch
> http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html

Count on the silly fellow not asking me about it, for additional damage from
a bouncing lightning bolt was certainly contemplated when I write the spell,
and O always applied that in play.

Cheers,
Gary

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and
give glory to your Father who is in heaven." Matthew 5:16
========================================

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Weber"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:09 AM
> Subject: RE: [greytalk] Castle Greyhawk - 100th page!
>
>> From: Thatotherguy
>>>--- Michael Weber wrote:
>>>> From: "M B"
>>
>>>>>congrats on 100, scott! i love the bouncing lightning bolt, that
>>>>>is a throwback that i guess 3rd edition magic dropped. very cool.
>>>>
>>>> I thought they dropped that in 2nd edition?
>>>
>>>In 1st Edition AD&D bouncing lightning bolts still only do damage once
>>>if the same bolt hits the same target twice. All because of the speed
>>>of the bolt. Chain lightning, however, gets around this. The question
>>>was answered in a Sage Advice or similar column.
>>
>> Oops! We always applied damage twice in our first edition game.
>>
>> I rather liked the random target factor of the original chain lightning
>> spell and the fact ot could hit the same target multiple times.

Re: Alternate Economies

2010-09-05T11:00:00.000-07:00

Re: [greytalk] Alternate Economies
Wednesday, August 15, 2007 7:29 PM
From: "Chris Anderson"
To: "Paul L. Ming" Cc: greytalk@canonfire.com

Another dissenter here. Paul's reasoning below matches my own.

Realistically, prices tend to rise around PC's in direct proportion to the amount of nice equipment they have. Almost every merchant I have tends to size up PC's and view them as walking coinage, so there's a gold rush mentality when the PC's come to town. It makes for a nice time, wonderful accommodations, the best food, and a burning need to replenish those purses fairly often by adventuring.

Merchants tend to have one price for PC's and another for locals, too.

-- Chris

On 8/15/07, Paul L. Ming < pming@northwestel.net> wrote:
Hiya.

I'm one of those 'dissenters' who don't find the AD&D pricing too out of whack. I mainly rationalize it by saying that the economies of countries is quite heavily influenced by "adventurers". In modern day analogies, what if every 25th person could go out and make, legaly, $1,000,000.00 over the course of a weekend. He could do this every weekend. After a couple of months/years of this, his 'hauls' wouldn't be just $1 million a weekend, but $10 million or more. Suddenly, the value of 'money' would drop. People who were not 'adventurers' wouldn't see much actual money because the actual 'dollar value' would be way above their means...they would resort primarily to barter. A farmer might give a carpenter a half-dozen chickens in exchange for the carpenter building him a new wheel barrow. The inn keep would give a free meal to the gardener who cuts the lawn, trims the hedges and trees, and thins the rose bushes. Actual coin wouldn't be used nearly as much as labour/barter.

As long as I keep this in mind, I don't have a problem with the economic situation in my games. In my games, a 'typical' NPC might make 3 to 5 gp's per month (lantern lighter, porter, stable hand, etc.). A more 'professional' NPC would double or triple that (scribe, page, carpenter, blacksmith). And a 'specialized' NPC even more (armorer, alchemist, engineer, etc.). In this way, when the PC's come back to town
with 700gp's each, they will be *very* rich. They can live like lords for a couple of months. And, IMHO, this is what PC's generally do. The role of "adventurer" in my game campaigns are pretty rare. My games are also "low-powered" type things, where a master wizard is of unthinkably high level (at least 6th!). ;)

Paul L. Ming

Thatotherguy wrote:
> As I said, from what I've seen. If you feel differently, feel free to
> present a defense. I would be interested in hearing it.

Re: Question to the List

2010-09-05T10:55:00.000-07:00

Re: [greytalk] Re: Question to the List
Wednesday, November 14, 2007 12:59 AM
From: "basiliv@cablespeed.com"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Sorry, I also forgo about:

- Below the Tomb of Horrors (Dragon #249)

On Wed Nov 14 1:57 , sent:

Here are some other thoughts that you might have already considered:

- Any of the "Return To" series from '98
- House on Summoner's Court (either the Shadis or Oerth Journal versions)

...and here are few older Dungeon issues with adventures set in GH (just the ones I happen to have):
- The Wrath of Keraptis (Dungeon #77)
- Kingdom of the Ghouls (Dungeon #70)
- The Ruins of Nol-Daer (Dungeon #13)
- The Shrine of Ilsidahur (Dungeon #10)

On Tue Nov 13 21:19 , "Chris Anderson" sent:

I like the idea of the Maure Castle stuff. I especially like it, since my players ran through WG5 back in the day... I assume the Dungeon adventures build off of that, but do not duplicate it?

Hm, L3 is another possibility. I don't have it, but where there's a will, there's a way.

I don't have anything against FR, but I only bought sourcebooks rather than modules. Is there anything you're thinking of in particular?

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the advice.

-- Chris

On Nov 13, 2007 3:28 PM, Tim Mooney wrote:

In regard to: {Disarmed} Re: [greytalk] Re: Question to the List,...:

>Other folks on the list have mentioned that they were in the process of
>converting the Maure Castle adventures from Dungeon magazineback to 1E.
>Since I run 3.5 games, I didn't really follow that, but I got the
>impression it was an ongoing effort.
>
>Maybe you can use what they've already converted?

That's a great suggestion for the last parts of the campaign. There will need to be several modules before that, though, to get the characters high enough level to play them. The Maure modules are on the level of Tomb of Horrors as far as how deadly they are, but there are generally more monsters than there were in the original ToH.

One possibility for at least one low-level adventure is Len Lakofka's "Deep Dwarven Delve", if you can get your hands on it. It's original 1E, and very few people have played it because of its publishing history.

I'm not sure if the group of old-timers has much experience with any of the early Forgotten Realms modules, but it might be easier to convert the backstory of some of those to Greyhawk than it would be to retroconvert 3E/3.5E modules back to 1E.

Tim

Re: LG: The DoU capitulates

2010-07-20T13:17:00.000-07:00

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] LG: The DoU capitulates
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:56:37 -0400
From: Samuel D. Weiss
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

>That's just it. From what I gather, the "Triads" don't really "produce"
anything and probably never will.<

By produce you must mean publish. You can't mean never write anything as we
sure as heck are writing quite a bit. And a good portion will be available
on the web sites the Triads will maintain.

>As for "growing" and becoming "better", I think the "Too many cooks,
spoil the broth." proverb will apply here. The end result will be
so bland as to be adventureless.<

How about "a pinch of this, a pinch of that" instead?
Greyhawk is huge. The original glossography had what, 500 words max on each
country with most coming in under half that? Maybe if someone had started
back when it first came out they might be able to show half of what the
Triads will develop for LG by this time next year. Not to mention the
intense difficulty of one person really making so many places unique and
individual. No, by having a different "cook" for each course of the LG meal
you will get a wonderful melange of tastes and flavors to suit even the most
discriminating palate.

Sam Weiss
Keoland Triad

Re: Greyhawk Timeline

2010-07-19T07:55:00.000-07:00

From bramo@svg.na.no Wed Oct 25 07:46:39 1995
To: Gregory Bernath
Cc: greytalk@MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Greyhawk Timeline
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Length: 1065
X-Lines: 24
Status: RO

On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, Gregory Bernath wrote:

> Okay, here's the problem.
> Iuz was imprisoned under Castle Greyhawk from 505 - 570.
> The Battle of Emridy Meadows and the fall of the Temple was in 569.
> Yet _The Temple of Elemental Evil_ states that Iuz was free and
> active during the fall of the temple. So, we have a contradiction.
> In _Iuz the Evil_, we find that Iuz only learns of the fall of the
> Temple after his release. This would imply that TOEE is incorrect,
> and that Iuz was still imprisoned when the Temple fell.
> So, for the sake of continuity, you either have to remove Iuz's
> involvement in TOEE, or change the the dates around so that Emridy
> Meadows happens after the release of Iuz.
>
> Anyways, I was curious whether anyone has come up with any other
> solutions.

I pondered this one also, and I think I have come up with the solution:

The battle of Emridy Meadows and the fall of the Temple in CY 569 must have been THE FIRST fall of the temple. Since, in ToEE, the temple already has been sacked and Tzuggtmoy imprisoned.

Chronomancy, Locations of Power, Hags, and Oerth

2010-07-15T06:51:00.001-07:00

[greytalk] Chronomancy, Locations of Power, Hags, and Oerth
Friday, March 13, 2009 9:48 AM
From: "Aeolius"
To: "greytalk list"

In my campaign there is a night hag, Xaetra. Currently she is a spirit hag, inhabiting the dreams and nightmares of those she knew in life. It was foretold in an omen that she would one day return to life, before traveling far into the past. I have been mulling over ideas for such an event... I think perhaps in the future she traveled into the past to leave clues she might need. The first such clue is hidden in Turucambi, where my current campaign began. More on Xaetra here - http://web.me.com/aeolius/turucambi/Home/Entries/2009/1/21_The_Hubris_of_Hags.html

And now... the musings...

"Locations of power can be used for various purposes within a Dungeons & Dragons campaign. Some, such as the earth nodes described in the FORGOTTEN REALMS product Underdark, might serve as sites for the working of especially powerful magic. Others, such as the planar touchstones described in Planar Handbook, might unlock potential advancement opportunities or special abilities in characters. Still others, such as the rune circles described in Races of Stone, could allow PCs to create permanent magical effects bound to tightly confined areas. But as compelling as those ideas are, at least one interesting concept for magical locations remains unexplored - that of a location imbued with magicalpower that is available for the taking." - DMG II, pg. 235

"Evidence suggests that a group of Guardians-like chronomancers exists on Oerth, but little is known of them. The Codex of Infinite Planes has a cryptic reference to the Monitors of Infinity, "drawn from all places in Time," but this is the sum of the evidence. Chronomancers risk pursuit by the Monitors or by an avatar of a time-related deity if a major disruption of history occurs.
Two quasi-deities, Heward and Murlynd, are thought to be chronomancers or have time-travel powers from devices, psionics, or artifacts. Both have collected items from various periods in Earth history, and both have domiciles with multiple gate links across time and space to many worlds (see DRAGON(R) issue #71, pages 19-21, and module EX2 The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror.) The mad demigod Zagyg likely travels Temporal Prime, which is here usually called the Plane or Demiplane of Time; the demigod Vecna certainly knows of chronomancy.
The ancient Suloise-Baklunish conflict may have involved time battles between rival chronomancers. Istus (goddess of fate and destiny) is Baklunish; Lendor (god of time) is Suel. The outcome of such battles (if there were any), and any involvement of the Monitors or godly avatars, are unknown. Rumors circulate from time to time that small groups of hostile, destructive Suel wizards, often loners, appear in the Sea of Dust, either arising from magical suspended animation or arriving from chronomantic travel.
Chronomancy might also be known to elven wizards worshiping Labelas Enoreth, the elven deity of longevity, history, and time; to wizards of Boccob, the Oerik god of magic; and to wizards of Cyndor, the Oerik god of time, continuity, and infinity.
Chronomancers may wish to explore Tovag Baragu, the Stone Circles, whose arches sometimes open into Oerth's past. Some portions of Oerth's distant past appear to resemble our Earth's early Cenozoic period (the Age of Mammals) up to Pleistocene times. (See GREYHAWK Adventures, pages 98-99, and the adventure Vecna Lives!. Chronomancers should be warned that exploring Tovag Baragu might possibly lead to an alternate timeline of Oerth in which the demigod Vecna triumphs (as per the "Vecna Wins" scenario outlined on page 68 of Vecna Lives!. See also the potentially dangerous time-altering properties of the wildspace objects called The Sisters, in Oerth's crystal sphere of Greyspace (see Greyspace, pages 71-72).
There is speculation that the humans and centaurs who live near Tovag Baragu might have knowledge of some basic elements of chronomancy from their years of cautiously observing this artifact, though it is unlikely they openly practice this magic." - Chronomancy and the Multiverse, http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/chrono.rtf

"Tovag Baragu should be treated as an artifact, as described in the Dungeon Masters Guide. Its powers, and the times at which it is activated, depend on astronomical phenomena of Oerth. Each circle is linked to a particular moon or planet and operates only when it is visible in the sky. The actions of those in the circle at such times can affect the outcome, but player characters should not be permitted to learn all that is required for proper control. The most frequent full connection is to a Pleistocene setting. Whether the city seen represents the past or an alternate world or the future is up to the DM. Player characters might be allowed to gather the impression that Tovag Baragu maintains the Sea of Dust's present condition, but they ought not to be able to do anything about it until they
reach extremely high levels, if then. If the campaign includes the Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar which are described under Artifacts in the Dungeon Masters Guide, a number of interactions might be set up between it and Tovag Baragu. " - Greyhawk Adventures

"The wreck on the east side of Turucambi is of a clipper ship, such as was known on Earth in the 1800s. (Naturally, the characters will never have heard of such a thing.) Its cargo consisted of china plates and tea, now mostly ruined. Its origin is possibly extraplanar; it might hail from across the Oljatt or simply be unexplained, according to the needs of the campaign." - Greyhawk Adventures

"There is a ship made of metal, with no mast or oars, and charts of unknown seas." - Greyhawk Glossography, pertaining to the Jungle of Lost Ships

Re: Cats in Greyhawk

2010-07-09T10:35:00.000-07:00

Re: [greytalk] Re: Cats in Greyhawk
Tuesday, March 24, 2009 11:31 AM
From: "Stefan Beate"
To: "Greytalk List"

To each his own, I guess. I like that book. Of course, some more stories could be told from that starting point: Is it really Turrosh Mak = Theg Narlot? Perhaps this is another case of wheels within wheels - this identification is a secret that can be found by diligent research and adventuring with quite some risk, but in truth it is just another ruse played expertly. So, most folks think that Turrosh Mak is a more or less random halforc from the free city, bent on gaining his own kingdom. For those "in the know" he is one of the old slavers. The "true" truth may be something else entirely - perhaps some force resurrected the mortal shell of Theg after the defeat of the slavelords, took over this shell and used it to defeat Turrosh Mak, who was really close to getting his own kingdom. Then this force assumed Turroshs identity to further confuse any keeping track of Theg Narlot and the slavelords, or it took over Turroshs mortal body. This force could be anything, from something out of the outer planes to an old suloise wizard whose consciousness was alive somewhere in the Drachensgrab mountains.

Stefan

Chris Anderson schrieb:
> Well, I've never even skimmed the product. Turrosh Mak in my campaign is our lovable half-orc from Greyhawk city. He has no truck with Earth Dragons or the SB, although he is playing around with an alliance with the sahuagin to expand his control into the Sea of Gearnat and up into Wooly Bay.
>
> -- Chris
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:33 AM, Scott > wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Stefan Beate wrote:
> > According to TSR 11621 (2000), Slavers, p 123, Turrosh Mak
> > IS indeed Theg Narlot. He survived and with the help of
> > Brother Kerrins contacts to the Scarlet Brotherhood and a
> > pact with the Earth Dragon managed to rise to power in the
> > Pomarj. Of course, this is only true uf you use the Greyhawk
> > 98 line of books in your game.
>
> You know, someday I'm going to do more than just skim that
> product. Theg Narlot just didn't look like a cat person to me in
> his module A4 illustration. What if the Earth Dragon used cats as
> intermediaries to communicate with, or spy on, Theg/Turrosh...?
>
> ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
>
> Yak-Men like keeping threads going so Greytalk doesn't go quiet
> again...

Re: FW: Ryan Dancey: WotC in Death Spiral

2010-07-05T07:46:00.001-07:00

Re: [greytalk] FW: [ADND-L] Ryan Dancey: WotC in Death Spiral
Wednesday, April 15, 2009 5:58 PM
From: "Paul L. Ming"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Hiya.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I honestly saw this coming about a year ago. As soon as I heard that they had a new guy coming in to "drive the ship"...re:

"
Wizards of the Coast announces new President
Posted 2008-03-14 06:26:02 by JoyceGreenholdt

Joyce Greenholdt Reports: Wizards of the Coast Inc., subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. and leader in trading-card games, role-playing games, and shared-world fantasy fiction, today announced Greg Leeds as the new President of Wizards of the Coast.

Leeds is moving to Renton, Wash., following seven years at Hasbro where he headed up International Marketing and helped to develop Hasbro’s global brand management methodology. Prior to that he led Hasbro’s Boys group and had extensive experience in marketing, operations, and sales at both Samsonite and Procter & Gamble.

“Wizards is a fantastic game company with great opportunities to expand and enhance player communities around the world,” said Leeds. “I feel privileged to join the team and carry-on our culture of captivating gamers everywhere they want to play.”

After a distinguished 12-year career at Wizards of the Coast, Loren Greenwood is stepping down as President and CEO and leaving the company effective March 21."

...so...I figured "This guy doesn't sound like he 'gets' the RPG fans. He'll treat it like all the other products he's been marketing, not really understanding that an old module like, say X1: The Isle of Dread that was produced back in 1980, can be opened up and used in 4e without any serious problems.". In effect, RPG'ers main ability is their generally 'higher than average' IQ and imagination, as well as the nature of RPG's (that is, "Create your own stuff") pretty much does NOT support the huge business model that big companies like Hasbro use and expect.

In short, I see RPG's like art: you don't go into it expecting to get rich...you do it because you love it and it's who you are...if you can make a living on it, you should be damn proud. Hasbro was expecting D&D to "make oodles of cash", when all they really should have been thinking of is "As long as we can pay for our expenses, and give our employees a small raise, or catered staff party every year, we're golden." I think WotC/Hasbro are starting to see the light; that they can't really make 'oodles' of cash off RPG's like they can off Magic:The Gathering, or expansions to Cranium or theme-based Monopoly board games.

Heres an interesting link with Greg Leeds attempting to explain, to some degree, the decision to nix PDF's: http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/14726.html Sounds like he's trying to play the part of the gallant knight, protecting 'the poor, defenseless masses' from the Evil Pirate Horde. Awwww...how selfless and thoughtful of him. ;)

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Stefan Beate wrote:
I don´t think this is Hasbros doing - my guess would be that Hasbro sets the goals, and WotC strives to reach them. Reaching these goals will be hard, especially at the moment, and so the nervousness in WotCs management rises. A cornered animal lashes out blindly.

Re: Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors

2010-07-02T10:13:00.000-07:00

Re: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
Tuesday, July 28, 2009 8:51 AM
From: "ozequeira@yahoo.com"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com
Cc: "Otto Zequeira"

Thanks for the replies. Guess the Isles of Woe from LG is out. Took out my copy of "Hand of the Revenant" and reread. Picked up a good tip from a Canonfire post to tie the other locations with the Tomb thematically or narratively.

http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3792

May I share the posts here with Canonfire for more cross-fertilization?

Also, found the following locations in "Iuz the Evil" for the Howling Hills:

Drenghus
The Grouaning Mines
The Soul Husks Caverns
Spear Tor
The Swirlers
Wegwiur Thralls
Xanxeven Point

Otto Z.

Iuz, highest hill: ?
Island in the Nyr Dyv: Tzunk (adventure available?)
Bright Desert: Rary the Traitor (especially Sulm), Ghost Tower (Soul Gem with soul-stealing power like Acererak)
Duchy of Geoff: Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
Vast Swamp: Tomb
Island beyond Sea Barons: Turucambi or the Sinking Isle (Greyhawk Adventures)

--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Stefan Beate wrote:

> From: Stefan Beate
> Subject: Re: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
> To:
> Cc: "greytalk@canonfire.com >> Greytalk List"
> Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 12:33 PM
> Otto Zequeira schrieb:
> > You mentioned LG materials. I remember
> that there was a Tzunk-related adventure for LG. How
> may one obtain that?
> >
> >
> AFAIK, you can´t get them legally today. They were only
> available while they were current in the campaign. I guess
> that the rights stay with WotC/Hasbro, at least the parts of
> the stories with the GH brand recognition. IIRC, somebody
> said that it would be theoretically possible to republish
> them for the author if he removed any and all GH references
> from them. But this is from what I dimly remember reading
> somewhere. The gist of it was that it is too much trouble to
> be worth it. IIRC, some of the LG modules got very mixed
> critiques also.
> > Otto Z.
> >
> > Iuz, highest hill: ?
> I seem to recall a Dungeon adventure sometime during the
> last two years of the mags run which had a hill adventure
> with some connection to some demons, orcs and maybe snakes,
> but the details are hazy. From what I recall, it should
> roughly fit the theme. I´ll go looking for it.
>
> Stefan

Re: Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors

2010-07-01T10:28:00.000-07:00

RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:29 AM
From: "Creighton Broadhurst" Add sender to Contacts
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Hey Otto,

Sorry I got the wrong end of the stick. The Sinking Isle would be a cool link in to the Tomb of Horrors, but I don't think any published module has ever dealt with the area. I think a lot of adventure tie-in ideas depend on how old you decide the tomb is. I don't have my files here, but I don't recall any definitive date for the tomb's construction. Acererak could definitely have gained lost/forbidden knowledge from the Soul Gem and the Ghost Tower and by exploring many of the locations in the Bright Desert (I'm thinking of Darkbridge Temple and the Necropolis of Unnagh [sp] in
particular).

In regard to obtaining LG materials, there is no "legal" way left to do so. WoTC owns all the rights to all core adventures (and all other adventures and materials they paid for) and at this time I doubt they have any interest in releasing them.

Creighton Broadhurst
Check out my blog at Raging Swan
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."

-----Original Message-----
From: Otto Zequeira [mailto:ozequeira@yahoo.com]
Sent: 27 July 2009 14:48
To: greytalk@canonfire.com; Creighton Broadhurst
Cc: oteta@aol.com
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors

Hi Gents. Thanks for the replies.

Good idea, Greg, as to the Soul Gem being an inspiration for Acererak.

Creighton, to clarify, as I showed with the list below, I want to keep the Tomb in its original location, but simulate a search for the Tomb with some standalone adventures. You mentioned LG materials. I remember that there was a Tzunk-related adventure for LG. How may one obtain that?

Any other thoughts for stand-alone adventures in the areas below? Thanks again for the ideas.

Otto Z.

Iuz, highest hill: ?
>
> Island in the Nyr Dyv: Tzunk (adventure
> available?)
>
> Bright Desert: Rary the Traitor (especially
> Sulm), Ghost Tower (Soul
> Gem with
> soul-stealing power like Acererak)
>
> Duchy of Geoff: Expedition to the Barrier
> Peaks
>
> Vast Swamp:
> Tomb
>
> Island beyond Sea Barons: Turucambi or the
> Sinking Isle (Greyhawk Adventures)
>
--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Creighton Broadhurst wrote:

> From: Creighton Broadhurst
> Subject: RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
> To: greytalk@canonfire.com
> Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 6:51 AM
>
> RE: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of
> Horrors
>
> Hey all,
>
> It depends how old you want the tomb to
> be. I'm not sure how you would tie it into
> Expedition to the Barrier Peaks but placing it in the Bright
> Desert or an island beyond the Sea Barons would be
> funky. In the Bright Desert, it could tie into
> ancient Sulm dark practises or on the island
> beyond the Sea Barons it would probably be an old Flan
> site. In either event the tomb would probably be
> around 1500 - 2000 years old. If you go with the Tzunk idea
> the tomb would be really old IMO (although I don't have
> access to all my file to give an exact
> approximate date ;-( )
>
> With the Tzunk and Sea Barons idea there is
> a dearth of publishing material. If you
> shoot for the Bright Desert, DUNGEON published
> a couple of articles on the area and the D&D web site
> did have some additional articles. LG also produced a core
> module set around the Tomb (but this assumes it is
> in its "correct"
> location.
>
> Creighton Broadhurst
> Check out my blog at Raging Swan
> "You miss 100% of the shots you > don't take."
>
>
> -----Original
> Message-----
>
> From: Otto Zequeira [mailto:ozequeira@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 26 July 2009 17:31
> To: greytalk@canonfire.com; Otto Zequeira
> Subject: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
>
> Dear all:
>
> How are you? Hope you are doing
> well. My players have decided to go after what will
> turn out to be the Tomb of Horrors, though they don't
> know it yet.
>
> The original adventure listed alternative
> locations for the tomb. I thought it might be a good
> opportunity to tie in some adventures that they have not
> enjoyed yet.
>
> Any suggestions for the locations below,
> especially with good, published material, would be greatly
> appreciated. Thanks ahead of time.
>
> Otto Z.
>
> Iuz, highest hill: ?
>
> Island in the Nyr Dyv: Tzunk (adventure
> available?)
>
> Bright Desert: Rary the Traitor (especially
> Sulm), Ghost Tower (Soul
> Gem with
> soul-stealing power like Acererak)
>
> Duchy of Geoff: Expedition to the Barrier
> Peaks
>
> Vast Swamp:
> Tomb
>
> Island beyond Sea Barons: Turucambi or the
> Sinking Isle (Greyhawk Adventures)

Re: Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors

2010-06-28T11:34:00.000-07:00

Re: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
Tuesday, August 4, 2009 7:23 AM
From: "Otto Zequeira"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com, "Otto Zequeira"

Thanks for all the suggestions. Lots of food for thought. Reread my copy of "Vecna: Hand of the Revenant", Thor. Connections between Acererak and Vecna should be explored. Need to follow up on your suggestions for Darkbridge Temple and the Necropolis of Unnagh [sp], Creighton. Nice write-up, Scott.

I am considering a combination of legend lore and commune spells to lay down the clues for the search for the Tomb. Commune spells are interesting in that the contacted entity can color responses.

Here is the link again at Canonfire for some of the suggestions that were mentioned there:

http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3792

Mind if I post some of the recent suggestions there for cross-fertilization?

Otto
Dirt from Skull City and dust of demi-lich make great cross-fertilization.

--- On Tue, 7/28/09, Scott wrote:

> From: Scott
> Subject: [greytalk] RE: Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
> To: greytalk@canonfire.com
> Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 4:55 PM
>
> Hi all,
>
> In case this helps, here's what I wrote about Acererak for
> my South Province campaign:
>
> It is common knowledge that "Acererak the Devourer" is a
> name passed down in legend. A name to be feared and
> spoken in the strongest curses.
>
> It is uncommon knowledge that Acererak was once a terrible
> archmage who ruled a kingdom where the County of Sunndi
> stands today. It is rumored that his tomb still
> exists.
>
> It is rare knowledge that Acererak ruled an empire nearly
> 1,000 years ago. He warred with Queen Ehlissa, seeking
> to expand his domain. He was vassal to Orcus, the
> demon lord, and was rewarded for his efforts with
> undeath. He lies in a tomb of his own devising
> somewhere in the Great Swamp, waiting to serve his master
> once more.
>
> It is very rare knowledge that Acererak's empire was
> peopled by Ur-Flan, undead, and monsters of his own
> creation, and that it stretched through modern-day Medegia
> as well. Now he is the lord of all liches, though he
> has not called a coven of liches for 500 years. As his
> body crumbles, his spirit is free to roam the Oerth once
> more. In this form he has manipulated events in the
> Great Kingdom over the last 25 years.
>
> ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
>
> Yak-Men use a coven of liches when they need new bone
> scroll cases...

Re: Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors

2010-06-25T10:26:00.000-07:00

Re: [greytalk] Alternative locations for the Tomb of Horrors
Monday, August 17, 2009 8:12 PM
From: "Chris Anderson"
To: "Thor Thunderer"
Cc:
greytalk@canonfire.com

I may very well have missed something published... how do we know that Acererak was one of Vecna's generals? And have we definitively pinpointed when he turned lich?

Also, where did the information about Acererak's early life come from?

With regards to Acererak putting down Kas's coup attempt... I actually played through the rebellion in my campaign. There, it was a complete surprise to Vecna, since his focus was entirely on putting down the Oeridian incursions into his territory.

Kas had no significant plan or organization ready to revolt: such would not be able to exist for long in the informer-ridden court that Vecna created. He also couldn't rely on his army commanders to attack Vecna, either, since Vecna had this habit of mind-controlling his minions... not Kas, since he was trusted and controlled through his Sword. But everyone else.

Instead, it was literally an impulsive act ... Kas found himself entirely alone with Vecna, who was exhausted from a massive sorcery that had just destroyed a largish portion of one of the Oeridian armies. Vecna was unprepared and weakened, Kas was at his strongest, and had recently dominated the Sword.

I was really pleased at how closely the game actually followed "reality".

-- Chris

On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Thor Thunderer wrote:

> Also, I can't imagine Vecna or Acererak sharing power
> in the Empire. Seems to me that any truce between them
> would last only long enough until one had an opening at the
> other.

My feeling is that Acererak didn't care at all about worldly power. He's referred to as a recluse quite often. Since we know he was one of Vecna's generals, I could see him easily ruling a region in Vecna's name, as long as he could be left to his studies and relay the actual business of ruling to minions, while reaping the benefits.

> Of course, it's quite possible that other sorcerors
> stepped up to try to grab power after Vecna died ...

It's almost certain that would be the case. Vecna's minions universally seem dedicated to the proposition that power is good. :)

> Also, in my campaign, Vecna routinely terrorized and hunted
> down anyone with any shred of magical ability. He was very
> aware of the need to stamp out any rivals. If Acererak had
> shown any hint of his existence during this period, he would
> have been instantly attacked and most likely slain.

Thing is, we know that Acererak's mother was slaughtered because of his power when he was young anyway, so, that kind of fits... even if you disregard the accounts that Acererak was one of Vecna's generals, and loyal enough to his benefactor to rescue him from certain doom.

> So, personally, I would not tie Acererak to the Spidered
> Throne. I haven't really thought about Acererak during
> this period, but my first thoughts are that he's
> entirely turned inwards, dealing with his conversion to
> lichdom and not really aware of what's going on
> "outside".

By the end of Vecna's reign, I suspect that's certainly the case... or else, from the other accounts, he'd have probably helped put down Kaz's mutiny early on.

TJB

The Road to Ulakand

2010-02-10T07:44:00.000-08:00

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:47:34 EST
From: Gary Welsh
Subject: The Road to Ulakand

This is a brief treatise on a merchant road that goes west out of Ket across the plains to Ulakand and thence across the steppes to the far east, to lands that are legendary in the Flanaess.

Ket is on a plateau of sorts, between the Yatil Mountains to the north and the Barrier Peaks to the south. It is a hilly land, heavily forested in the south and central parts (the Bramblewood), and bordered in the west by the Tusman Hills (separates it from Tusmit to the northwest) in the south by the Pen-Wilds, or Pennors (separates it from the Plains of the Paynims [Bayomens]). In the southeast, the hills around the Fals River, and Thornward, have often been the sites of skirmishes and clashes between Bakluni west and the rest of the Flanaess in the east. The swords and spears of Bissel and Veluna have always been pointed against Ket. But there has also been much profitable trade in Ket as -- this place is the crossroads between two vastly different cultures. Caravans go from Lopolla [Hlupallu] in all directions.

To the northeast, a road goes to Molvar, and thence over the mountain road all the way to Krestible in Perrenland. To the east, a road goes around the Bramblewood and down to the river valley to Thornward, in Bissel, and thence east to Veluna, or south to Gran March. To the west, traffic flows down the Tuflik River to Ceshra and Sufmur, and eventually out to the Drawmij Ocean and the coastal cities of Ekbir and Zeif. Also to the west is the wide and dusty Ulakand Road, which fords the Tuflik River and strikes off aay from the Pen-Wilds, with brown and purple mountains in the distance to the south (left hand side) and eventually flatness everywhere. After hundreds of miles of flat, dry plains, the road heads into the trade center of Ulakand [Yolakand], once the capital of a great Paynim Khan.

From Ulakand, one can go south across the lands of Ull, to the settlements in the Ulsprue Mountains in the west (known to be inhabited by cyclopes and cloud giants), or the the hill-town of Kester [Ghastoor] in the southern hills. Across those brown hills, one would pass into an even drier set of plains, the Dry Steppes, which is almost desertlike -- hundreds of miles more to the south, one would eventually come to the mud and brick city of Karnoosh, on Lake Karnoosh -- an ancient site holy to the Baklunish, rebuilt after the Invoked Devastation. This oasis is one of the few sites for hundreds of miles about that support a large population. Karnoosh has routens.s south to Tashbul and the Sulhaut Mountains, and also west, possibly to the mountain kingdom of Zufon (SoD, p. 154)... The Pass of the Clenched Fist is the only pass across the Sulhauts, into the Sea of Dust (SoD, p. 171). In Karnoosh, Paynims, Ullites, dark Jahindis, and even folk of Sa'han and Behow can be seen -- many drawn by the annual slave fair held here (SoD, p. 143).

"Turrets and domes dominated the brick city of Karnoosh. The walled portion of the place -- the actual city -- was relatively small; no more than seven or eight thousand souls were enclosed by the high barriers. All around the city, except on the side that abutted the sorte of the big lake, were ancillary villages and towns that quadrupled or quintupled the total population of the area. Most of these smaller places were liberally dotted with caravansaries and wine shops where traders and laboreres could find housing and amusement during their brief stay.

"Continual streams of merchants came to the city, for Karnoosh was a hub where purveyors from north, south, east and west could exchange commodities.
An open bazaar was always busy. Slaves, spices, animals, ivory, and a mulitude of other goods were sold and traded there. The brick casbah housed sufficient troops to encourage everyone to do business peacefully, but just in case auxiliary forthresses also stood on either flank of the city. The Shah of Karnoosh was very rich and very powerful. There were no strong states around his little realm, so for a century there had been no warfare troubling the place. Such peace and prosperity brought even more merchants to Karnoosh, and it was a thriving cosmopoilis by all measures of the whole of Oerik" (SoD, p. 150).

If one had turned west instead of south, way back at Ulakand, one would have continued along the great plains, skirting the north-reaching arm of the Ulsprues, and heading due west, where one road would branch off north to Antalotol, while another continued west across plains which no map in the Flanaess ever detailed... If you keep going west, you come to another coast, a wedge-like sea that comes in from the Dramidj Ocean, nearly as far south as the latitude Karnoosh is at (29 degrees lattitude, Karnoosh is at about 26 degrees). The road turns south and goes around the coast, where it goes past little port towns, and also inland to the mountains to the south (which are distantly connected to the Sulhauts further east). Here, one is truly in western or central Oerik.

This wedge-shaped sea that cuts southward from the Dramidj divides the Bakluni subcontinent from the rest of western Oerik. To the west and north are the so-called "khanates" and beyond that coast is the rocky, volcanic isle of Fireland.

Re: Ehlonna and Sheldomar (still long)

2010-02-09T19:21:00.000-08:00

Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:53:26 +1200
From: Craig & Julie
Subject: Re: Ehlonna and Sheldomar (still long)

>
>Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:12:55 GMT
>From: Paul Looby
>Subject: Re: Ehlonna and Sheldomar (still long)
>
>>So, you're postulating a seasonal "let's all go to the hills" for the
>>entire Sheldomar valley? :-)
>
>Yeah why not - load up granny and the kids on a cart and hit the road! :=
P
>
>No seriously - if you want to put seasonal floods in - then meltwater f=
rom
>the Lortmils in spring is the way to do it. I don't have the map in fron=
t of
>me - but IIRC the Sheldomar has a lot of tributaries sourced in the
>mountains which will catch meltwater runoff in spring.
>
>The magnitude of the effect downstream is another question. The topology=
of
>the river valley and the soil types there would be big factors I think (=
not
>being a geographer). It might not be an all out head for the hills - but
>there probably would be some seasonal flooding.
>That's my take on it - anyone want to add to, subtract from or just plai=
n
>napalm this?
>
>
>> What's the average height of the Lortmils? They are geologically old a=
nd
>> weathered so I'd say not so high (maybe 1000 metres with the odd high=
er
>> peak) so with the exception of a few months (at most over winter) pro=
bably
>> don't get snow very often, so probably not too much run off in spring.
>>
>Pat E wrote:=20
>The Appalacians are old as well, but the presidentials, and green mounta=
ins
>(NH, and VT) get a TON of snow, and contribute to spring flooding along =
local
>rivers (such as the Saco river, east of Mt. Washington).
While Paul Wrote:=20
>Still if you look at places like the mountains of central Spain and sout=
hern
>Italy - they get snow in winter. Not a whole lot, but enough to cause fl=
oods
>occasionally.

Both these examples are in the 40-45 latitudes (approximately the same as the lands of Iuz, while the Lortmils are closer to 30 degrees lat (Shanghai, Israel, Libya). I'm not saying that these lats. don't get snow, they do but in my interpretation of the Lortmils they don't get a lot of snow, not enough anyway to cause spring melt problems in the Sheldomar basin. I have them as similar to my local hills, they get the odd dump of snow over the winter but it seldom lasts more than a day or so, sometimes a week and it doesn't cause too many problems, there is some flooding but
that's mainly due to the rain at lower altitudes than snow. I don't see winter melt as being too much of a problem in the Lortmils. The rivers would flood occasionally but this is probably more due to rainfall than snow melt.

I have the snow line ending further north, maybe somewhere in Furyondy with falls infrequent further South.

>>The Sheldomar starts in Rushmoor and again I don't see this as a major
>>cause of spring run off, it lacks a big Mt catchment to really get a lo=
t of
>>spring melt. The Javan on the other hand probably floods a lot with tho=
se
>>Mt tributaries flowing down from the Crystalmists!
>
>Agreed on the Javan. Doesn't the Sheldomar have three or four tributarie=
s
>sourced in the Lortmils though?=20

Yep, but the Lortmils are a lot lower than the Crystalmists. I'd equate the Javan more in line with the Ganges as its headwaters are in the Flanaesses equivelant of the Himalayas, so I'd see seasonal flooding as being quite a problem in that valley, not so much in the Sheldomar one- well at least not caused by snows. I'd have spring rains causing floods more than snow melt in the Sheldomar Basin, but that's just me.

>
>That's how I see them as well. Wide dry grasslands - rain perhaps in spr=
ing
>and winter (?).
>
>>The Uleks, which I've never really developed, I'd say would again be
>>something similar - perhaps like parts of Victoria or South Australia, =
good
>>for wheat & vineyards. Intensive farming along the river valleys, pator=
al
>>sheep farming in the drier uplands.
>
>I'd go with that - but I also see occasional floods in springtime. The
>rivers might not overflow every year - but every so often they will,
>especially with a particularly wet spring after a hard winter.

Agreed. actually I've just checked my notes on Keoland & found that I've put a reasonable amount of emphasis on spring floods, so may have to reverse my argument :)Oops.

>Paul
>

Probably better you didn't:)
My geography degree has only been good for writing up countries for my AD&D campaigns!

BTW here in my take on the climate of the region, based on my incomplete write up of Keoland.

Climate
Keoland enjoys a temperate, Mediterranean style climate. Summers tend to be long, hot, dry and dusty with the temperatures often reaching into the mid to high thirties (Celsius). Winters tend to be mild with the temperature seldom dipping below freezing, except in the northern provinces.

The climate is driest in the central and western regions; areas close to the two main river valleys, the Sheldomar and the Javan, use irrigation and canals to bring water to the crops during the driest months. Gradsul and the southern coast has the highest annual rainfall. In most areas precipitation occurs mainly during the spring months when the moisture heavy south-easterly winds sweep in from the Azure Sea bringing the rains which replenishes and nourishes the soil. Summer is dry often bringing droughts especially to the inland regions. In both spring and autumn the plains are swept by fierce thunderstorms. Cumuli-nimbus clouds tower up into the stratosphere, bringing heavy rains and sometimes even tornados.

Keoland's climate is due both to its geographic location and the prevailing long term synoptic weather patterns in Greyhawk. In the winter months the prevailing winds in the Flanaess come from the north-east, sweeping down across the central kingdoms into Keoland, bringing snow to many of the more northerly kingdoms but having spent most of their force by the time they reach the Lortmils they bring little more than cold dry winds, with little or no rain to Keoland. However they do deposit some snow on the higher peaks of the Lortmil Mountains and bring frosts and cold temperatures to the northern provinces of the kingdom.

In spring the south east trade winds arrive, blowing in from the Solnor Ocean and Azure Sea and pushing the winter winds back northward. The south easterlies are warm and moisture laiden and as they meet the cold dry northerly winds they bring rain to the lands. These spring fronts bring heavy rains to Keoland and the other nations of the Sheldomar Valley for about a month during Planting but as quickly as they arrive the rains depart and the long hot summer begins.

As well as having heavier rainfall the coastal regions are also more humid than the central and northern provinces, due to the influence of the Azure Sea. Another feature of the climate of Keoland is the hot, dry Fohn wind, called the Dragon's Breathe by locals, that blows in from the Sea of Dust beyond the Crystalmist Mountains. This super-dry wind dries the land, sucking the last of the moisture out of the air as it blows down from the high mountain valleys. The Dragon's Breathe (Note: I have to come up with a better name than that one day:) brings high winds, dust clouds and scorching temperatures to Keoland during summer.

Keoland's climate has a definite north-south and east to west gradient. The central and northern regions tend to be both hottest and driest during the summer months and the coolest during winter as they are furthest from the moderating influences of the Azure Sea and so have the greatest extremes in temperature. Summers tend to be coolest in the Good Hills where the higher elevation brings cooler temperatures. During winter these hills sometimes get a sprinkling of snow but it seldom remains for more than a day or two

Geography
Keoland is a large kingdom in the South West portion of the Flanaess. The
Rushmoors form the nominal western boundary of the kingdom while in Azure Sea, some 600 miles south of these marshes form the southern boundary. To the east the mighty Sheldomar River is the kingdoms eastern border while the Javan River bounds it to the west. In the far north western corner of the kingdom the most recent acquisition to the lands, the County of Javan lies on the western shore of the Javan and this province stretches as far west as the Stark Mounds.

Most of the kingdom lies within the Sheldomar River Basin and consists of a huge plain that stretches from Gradsul in the South to the Thornwood, the capital of Bissel far to the north, a distance of some 1,000 miles.

The country generally slopes from west to east slowly rising in elevation the further west one travels. The vast plains of Keoland barely rise more than 300' in height from the Sheldomar River to the foot hills of the Good Hills, some 250 miles further west. These highlands are the only hills of any note in Keoland, and reach a peak of some 1500 feet above sea level. They are named the Good Hills for they are both fertile and have a favourable climate for growing crops and for orchards as well. Apples, pears, apricots, peaches, olives and even some citrus fruits are all grown in the valleys and slopes of the Good Hills. Beyond the hills the land falls away sharply as the hills drop down the Javan River Valley.

The most fertile soils are found closest to the Javan and Sheldomar River's where the annual floods deposits alluvial material that supplies the sustenance for the regions cops. The further north and west one travels from the Sheldomar the drier and stonier the soils get and the less suitable they become for arable farming. Instead the northern and central areas tend to rely more upon the raising of livestock, especially sheep and goats, for their livelihood.

Because the richest soils tend to be located nearest the Sheldomar Valley it isn't surprising to find that the majority of the kingdom's population live near this vital waterway, in fact more than 60% of the population live within 100 miles of the Sheldomar river, in the three main provinces of Gradsul, Sheldomar and Middlemarch. Population density is lessens in the central and western areas of the these provinces. The least populated provinces are in the far northern borderland provinces of (Javan, Rushmoor and Northmarch as well as the Southern Marches which lie between Dreadwood and the Azure Sea. The cooler, more temperate climate of the Good Hills, with its fertile soils, is also a favourable place to live so this region tends to be quite densely settled as well.

Cheers

Craig Courtis

More on guns, a little on the Kalevala

2010-02-09T19:11:00.000-08:00

Priority: normal
Date sent: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:05:24 CST
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: SCOTT CASPER
Organization: Dominican Univ., River Forest, IL
Subject: [GREYTALK] More on guns, a little on the Kalevala
Originally to: greytalk@MIT.EDU
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

>IMO The gun would be used by the short lived races, Orcs are a good
>example of a race that would use GunPowder....Note I still don't use
>Gunpowder in my Greyhawk Campaign...

How about that Terry Harrison, eh? First he gives us a great use for gunpowder, and then he tells us he doesn't use it.

Jeff Mckillop added:
>>But Orcs are unlikely to invent GunPowder, so they will need as way to access it.
>True, and who would be stupid enough to give the secret to them?

I don't know about stupid, but Iuz, the Hierarchs, the Slave Lords, and Turrosh Mak (if you use him) would all benefit from outfitting their humanoid troops with firearms. Yeah, I'm using this idea.

Jonathan Wilson, and I believe some other people too, have suggested that gunpowder should be a secret guarded by dwarves and/or gnomes. Keep in mind that scrying magic keeps secrets like that very hard to protect. Mr. Wilson also pointed out that there would be no reason to develop firearms because there is magic. Fair enough, but then you have to say that swords and armor don't exist either, because you don't need them if you have magic either. Obviously, not everyone is a magic-user (at least not in most people's campaigns) and that other options should exist for the other classes.

Terry Nixon wrote:
>I have read the Kalevala and I use one of the Finnish deities in my
>Greyhawk campaign, and will possibly bring in some more.
>Didn't someone on the list mention that Mordenkainen originates from
>some Finnish source?

Did you really get through the whole thing? I tried it when I just started college, but I only got about halfway. As to Mordenkainen, I suspect that Mr. Gygax was inspired by the names in the Kalevala, but I don't think it was borrowed from any source.

Lastly, I wrote:
>I can just imagine the surprise when a mid-level druid decides to
>defend a castle by using Stone Shape to make the castle walls dodge
>the cannoballs!
And Alan Clark responded:
>Ha! Just imagine the argument you would have on your hands if I was
>running the game and you were trying to sell me on that one...

Would you believe we were playing Toon? Okay, so even I can't defend myself on that one. In campaign play, I wouldn't allow it either. Still, in just a one-shot adventure, it would be pretty funny...

Scott “Volstagg” Casper
old orc: “Looks like them humans are back with another party. Time to break out the gunpowder again...” --great NPCs, Shannon!

RUMUR! Meet the New Hawk - WoG to Restart/Reimagine in 4e

2010-01-18T11:25:00.001-08:00

[greytalk] RUMUR! Meet the New Hawk - WoG to Restart/Reimagine in 4e
Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:42 PM
From: "Wade Nolen"
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

Well, you know life has little ironies, sometimes.

It’s kind of funny to me how fast and how far a rumor can spread. In this case, how long a rumor can persist, and how it can come full circle. Maybe it’s an indicator of how long I’ve been scouring the Canonfire forums, or how big of a geek that I really am that I immediately recognized the actual text of this little gem. But, I’ve seen it several times in the past year or so, and I immediately recognized it.

A year and a season ago, in late Summer of last year (August ’08), a fella that many of us know and love, Glen Vincent Dammerung, started a thread on “Canonfire!” and was discussing his ideas of what he thought would happen if they rebooted the GH franchise. Mind you, this was far before the announcement or speculation of an old setting was being revived, or that it would be Dark Sun. At any rate, GVD started the thread, although it has since been taken to great extremes, and apparently has reached Germany is being taken not only out of context, but also far too seriously. It was just GVD putting out what he thought was cool, fun, and what they ought to do. A good read, but nothing even resembling authoritative. But, such is the nature of rumors.

The greatest part is that here it is 15 months later, and it’s come back to us!!

Signature
Wade K. Nolen
aka "Icarus "

I'm off to gallivant among the clouds!
" ... and he did fly, and he was seen on the wings of the wind."

From: Tom Roberts [mailto:tempestblindam@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:43 PM
To: greytalk@canonfire.com
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Solution to the "Canon" vs. Otherwise Problem - CORRECTION

On that note, I thought this rumor making the rounds might be of interest to the list.

http://forum.dnd-gate.de/index.php?topic=20495.0;wap2

Anyone care to comment?

Tom Roberts
If women are so much smarter than men, why do they keep dating us?

> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:26:26 -0700
> From: breeyark@gmail.com
> To: greytalk@canonfire.com
> Subject: Re: [greytalk] Solution to the "Canon" vs. Otherwise Problem - CORRECTION
>
> > On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 21:01 -0500, Tracy Johnson wrote:
> >> The solution to "Canon" versus anything else may be rather simple.
>
> -Details snipped for brevity-
>
> I think the real answer is even more simple, canon is whatever the DM
> and players agree it is. Given the -not currently supported- nature of
> the setting, it really doesn't matter at all beyond that.
>
> Now, if/when WOTC decides to do something with GH again, the matter of
> canon might be important again, but as Russ and Sam were noting, the
> precedent of the recent Greyhawk Ruins Expedition book doesn't bode
> well for LG derived material, including the bits released to the
> general public on the wizards.com/greyhawk site (that's a handy
> shortcut url to the LG official site, which is archived for posterity
> (for now at least).
>
> In fact, I don't see much beyond LGG and perhaps EGHR itself being
> held as recent canon by WOTC in the future, simply because the legal
> ownership of the early LG era stuff is muddy (Russ, Sam or other LG
> staff alumni can probably shed more light on the details) and the
> derivative nature of later LG stuff (following up on info in early LG
> stuff for example) might make WOTC shy away from using any of it.
>
>
> --
> Bree-yark, baby!
>
> Rich,
> breeyark@gmail.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit the Greytalk Web Forum at http://www.canonfire.com/forum/
> Or Search the Archives: http://www.greycitadel.com/greycitadel/greytalk.nsf
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: greytalk-unsubscribe@canonfire.com
> For a list of additional commands, e-mail: greytalk-help@canonfire.com

When did Keoland Begin? and a Keoish Dating System

2010-01-18T11:18:00.000-08:00

Date: Sun, 02 Jan 00 11:37AM PST
From: Jason Verbitsky Add To Address Book Add To To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] When did Keoland Begin? and a Keoish Dating System

More Details

When did Keoland begin? According to 'canon', we know this much for
certain:

"Keoland was the first major kingdom to be established in Flanaess, the Oeridians and Suloise tribes mingling and joining to build a tolerant and prosperous realm which nominally included many and varied demi-human groups as well."
(World of Greyhawk Guide p.27)

But exactly when? As the first, it is clearly before the Founding of the Great Oeridian Kingdom of Aerdy in -217 CY, 428 OR, 5299 SD. But as it was formed, in part, by Suloise tribes, it would have to be after the Suloise migrations began in -447 CY, 198, 5069 SD. (World of Greyhawk Guide p.9)

CY OR SD Event
-- -- -- -----

-447 198 5069 Suloise migrations begin
} 25 Years
-422 223 5094 Rain of Colorless Fire
} 205 Years

-217 428 5299 Founding of the Great Oeridian Kingdom of Aerdy

So, then, the period in which the Kingdom of Keoland could be founded in can be narrowed down to some 230 years.

It might have been even before the infamous Rain of Colourless fire fell in -422 CY, 223 OR, 5094 SD (World of Greyhawk Guide p.9). But it seems probable that it was later:

"For two centuries the Oerid and Suel battled each other and the fragmenting humanoid hordes for possession of the central area of the Flanaess, ... In a few places the two racial stocks intermixed - notably the Sheldomar Valley where, except for the Hold of the Sea Princes, the peoples of the Kingdom of Keoland,
... are mixed Oerid-Suel stock. ... the [Suel] Houses of Rhola and Neheli - late migrants who settled and held the Sheldomar"
(World of Greyhawk Guide p.8)

This, of course, refers to the time after the Rain of Colourless Fire and before founding of Aerdy. Here the period of *two hundred years* is very significant as it gives us some idea of how long after the migrations began the Kingdom of Keoland was actually established.

Also, the fact that the Rhola and Neheli were late migrants could indicate that the starting date for these two centuries is a bit later. However, this does not necessarily follow as the Suloise and Oeridians could well have been battling before these later Suel tribes migrated.

Though it seems obvious, for completeness sake, I should state this nonetheless: when they say "two centuries" it doesn't necessarily mean 200 years exactly, it is more like two hundred and some odd years, or even 'about two hundred years' (which could even mean almost, if taken loosely).

So what does all of this give us for a window in which to place the founding?

CY OR SD Event
-- -- -- -----

-447 198 5069 Suloise migrations begin
} 25 Years
-422 223 5094 Rain of Colorless Fire
} 205 Years
-247 398 5269 Approximate end of Suel-Oerid Battles

? ? ? Founding of Keoland } 30 Years

-217 428 5299 Founding of the Great Oeridian Kingdom of Aerdy

This would narrow it down to a 30 year period -- if one wants to have the Kingdom of Keoland founded after the battles have ended. Perhaps founded as a way of making peace between the various warring tribes who were sick of fighting and dying.

Alternately, the Kingdom of Keoland instead may well have been founded before the Oerid-Suel battles had ended and taken part in them (fighting various Oerid and/or Suel tribes/nations). In which case the 230 year window is still the best 'canon' narrowing.

Thus the question arises * do we want to have the Kingdom of Keoland founded in the beginning, middle, or end of this warring period of the Suloise and Oeridian tribes? *

Each of these could work for the Living Greyhawk campaign. But we should reach a consensus and decide upon one and then narrow it down to a specific year.

Many of us have already set our own 'unofficial' and 'uncannonical' dates for Keoland's founding in fans' campaigns:

CY OR SD Founding in the Campaign of or Canon Events
-- -- -- -------------------------------------------

-519 125 4996 Chris Jarvis

-447 198 5069 Suloise migrations begin

-422 223 5094 Rain of Colorless Fire

-316 329 5200 Patrick Franke's Keoish Timeline

-268 377 5248 Scott Rennie's Sheldomar Timeline

-247 398 5269 Approximate end of Suel-Oerid Battles

-217 428 5299 Founding of the Great Oeridian Kingdom of Aerdy

-200 445 5316 Kirt Wackford's Geopolitical History of Keoland
(says 'by' this time but gives no exact date)

192 836 5707 Issak Haywood's Empire of Keoland

In choosing this specific year, I think that it would be quite useful for it to be one that is easy to calculate based off of the CY calendar (and if possible other dating systems as well) so that conversion is as simple and painless as possible -- thus a number that works out as evenly as possible should be employed.

For your reference, here is how years are converted to/from 3 of the various dating systems used in the World of Greyhawk setting:

-CY -> SD +5516
CY -> SD +5515

-CY -> OR + 645
CY -> OR + 644

OR -> SD +4871

Events could be calculated from the founding of the Kingdom of Keoland (such as the Romans used for from the founding of Rome) and a new dating system could be established -- one that relies not upon the Aerdian system of the Great Kingdom which came after Keoland itself was founded. What calendar would have the Keolanders themselves used before the Great Kingdom's influence spread so far and wide? Would they not have kept it? Even if they later adopted the Aerdian method they must
have used something until then! It is logical (although by no means certain) that the Suel and Oeridians would have reached some sort of comprise rather than using one or the other, or both, of their own dating systems. I would call this new dating system the "Keoish Chronology" and abbreviate it as "KC".

With all of the above in mind as a framework, let us discuss exactly when Keoland should be founded (in a manner that is the most consistent with established Greyhawk canon) and if a KC dating system should be employed from that point in time.

Jason
>:)

* * * * * * * * * * * * *
His Dread and Awful Presence,
Jason Verbitsky
hierax@home.com
http://hierax.com/greyhawk/

Southern Border of Keoland, a Chronology (576-591 CY)

2010-01-18T11:14:00.000-08:00

Date: Sun, 02 Jan 00 00:44AM PST
From: Jason Verbitsky Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] Southern Border of Keoland, a Chronology (576-591 CY)

Scott Rennie wrote:
>
> Frank Timar wrote:
>
> < > breading experiments can enhance the Cthulu flavor proposed for this region.>>
>
> I think Jason Verbitsky once also pointed out to me that my map doesn't extend far enough west to cover Saltmarsh.
>
>Speaking of Saltmarsh, we need an official story of how events played out in that module series. Saltmarsh and nearby communities will be important in suplying Westkeep.>>
>
> Cue Jason... ;-)

Yes, O' great master, you summoned me? I hear and obey. ;)

I'll answer the second question first: the result of the Saltmarsh Series of Modules (U1-U3) is that the Sahuagin were defeated and driven from the Lizard Men's lair (a raid which, BTW, is not dissimilar to the Raid on Innsmouth -- coincidence? ...) [see U3 page 36]

Now the first question, OTOH, is a bit more complicated and requires a longer answer:

-----------------------
Southern Border History
-----------------------

CHRONOLOGY OF

Date Events Occurring / South Keoland Occupied By
---- --------------------------------------------

576 Needfest (New Years)
Keoland (Start of Classic Greyhawk Campaign)

584 Fireseek (1st month)
Treaty of Niole Dra with Furyondy against Iuz

584 Readying (2nd month)
Allied armies march to aid Furyondy against Iuz

584 Goodmonth (8th month)
Scarlet Brotherhood Invades SP & Southern Keoland

584 Harvester (9th month)
Scarlet Brotherhood calls for peace, Council of Greyhawk convened

585 Readying (2nd month)
Keoish, Gran March, Ulek armies march forth from Flen to liberate the giant-held Earldom of Sterich.

585 Coldeven (3rd month)
Treaty of Greyhawk is finally signed Keoish Southern Border fixed where armies were at
the time of signing.

585 Coldeven (3rd month)
Scarlet Brotherhood holds Southern Keoland (Start of Ashes Campaign)

586 Coldeven
Flight of the Fiends

586 Patchwall (4th month)
Furyondy/Veluna attack Iuz breaking the Treaty of Greyhawk

586 Patchwall (4th month)
earliest possible date Keoish liberation efforts could begin

588 Coldeven (3rd month)
last settlement of Sterich liberated from Giants

589 Summer
Revolts sweep through the Hold of the Sea Princes
Probable that Keoish have begun liberation efforts

590 Early in the year
Keoish armies control Southern Keoland
Keoland captures Westkeep in the Hold of the Sea Princes

591 Needfest (New Years)
Keoland's Southern border reaches to the Hools and beyond (Start of Living Greyhawk Campaign)

COMMENTARY AND EXPLANATION

In 576 CY the town of Saltmarsh, and thus the Southern region between the Dreadwood and the Hool Marshes, is firmly in the Kingdom of Keoland. According to the module U1, THE SINISTER SECRET OF SALTMARSH: "...Saltmarsh is placed in the southernmost part of Keoland, at the western edge of hex U4/123." (1981, p.3). However, the national maps in the 1983 GUIDE TO THE WORLD OF GREYHAWK are less conclusive as the area between the Dread Wood and the Hool Marshes is somewhat of a no-man's land (p.44-45). But as the maps don't say that it isn't (any more than they say that it is) and the module explicitly states that it is, IMNSHO, it is.

In 584 CY, during the Summer/Goodmonth, during the so-called 'Greyhawk Wars' after the Scarlet Brotherhood (SB) conquered the Hold of the Sea Princes (SP) they then proceeded to invade southern Keoland and blockade Gradsul (GW p.15, 23-24).

By 585 CY's "cold, harsh spring", the border between Keoland and the SB/SP is in the middle of the Dreadwood -- right from the Javan River to the Azure Sea (as can be seen on the map on the inside cover _FtA:AotF_, the date of which is stated in the text on page 9).

Here it is worth noting that the it could well have taken the Scarlet Brotherhood's forces up until Spring/Coldeven (3rd Month) of 585 to achieve the border depicted on this map. Many would say that this border would have been achieved by Summer-Fall/Harvester (9th Month) 584, but that seems rather quick for my taste. The dating methodology used by TSR for this period is seriously flawed as the date of the FtA is supposed to be the "Year of Peace" after the Treaty of Greyhawk was signed, and that didn't really happen until Spring/Coldeven (3rd Month) of 585! (GW p.24 vs GH:PG p.11, GH:tAB 5, 19, 62). So this FtA map could either refer to Summer-Fall/Harvester (9th Month) 585 or Coldeven 586.

One really should be responsible and go with the date of the earlier publication and make it 586. (BTW, FWIW, Roger Moore himself has agreed with and admitted to me that the date that TSR uses for the Treaty of Greyhawk is in error, but that AFAHK it will be used in future Greyhawk products nonetheless -- I opt to use the correct date regardless of TSR's choice).

Thus, from sometime between Goodmonth (8th month) of 584 and Coldeven (3rd month) of 585 a bloody struggle ensued between the forces of the Scarlet Brotherhood and Keoland for the area of the Dreadwood to the Hool Marshes. The two sides fought each other to a standstill and in Coldeven 585 with the signing of the Treaty of Greyhawk the southern border of Keoland became fixed midway through the Dreadwood. IMNSHO, this up to 7 month war seems a bit better, and more realistic, than having the SB deliver ultimatums, sail ships in and conquer both the SP and southern Keoland all in a single month.

So in Coldeven of 585 CY the Southern border of Keoland was certainly amidst the Dreadwood (as depicted on the FtA map); However, at some point after Coldeven 586 CY, and before the end of 590, the Keoish could have taken the offensive and liberated Saltmarsh and the rest of Southern Keoland. This is possible because in Coldeven and Planting (4th Month) of 586 Furyondy and Veluna were the first nations to cast aside the Treaty of Greyhawk when they invoked the famous 'Flight of Fiends' and attacked Iuz (GH:tAB 19-21, 31, GH:PG 11-12).

Strictly speaking, however, this would require a SB/SP withdrawal rather than a Keoish offensive as Furyondy-Veluna were the first to break the PACT OF GREYHAWK on the 1st of Patchwall 586. But the Keoish with ties to Furyondy-Veluna may have had some advanced warning of the imminent dissolution of the Pact/Treaty so that they could prepare their offensive better than the SB/SP could their defences, and strike early in the month Patchwall (or soon after) to reclaim the civilized portions of the lost Hool Marches (the Keoish Southlands).

In the summer of 589 CY, revolts swept through the Sea Princes domain shaking the hold that the Scarlet Brotherhood had on that nation (Gh:tAB p.32). If Keoland hadn't already moved to liberate southern Keoland, following Furyondy/Veluna's lead, it is probable that this revolt would be the perfect opportunity to do so. If they already had begun such efforts, the revolts would aid the Keoish by seriously distracting the Scarlet armies as to which threat to deal with -- the Keoish or the Sea Princes, and as the revolt is behind the their own lines opening a second front for the war it is probable that they'd devote more effort to suppressing the revolt than fighting the Keolanders.

In 590 CY, Keoland takes the stronghold Westkeep on the other side of the Hool Marshes, across the Javan River (GH;tAB p.32). Here although it is possible that they take Westkeep before liberating all of Southern Keoland, I think that it is highly unlikely as the resources such an expedition would require would be put to better use freeing Keolanders from their Scarlet yoke. Moreover, the Scarlet Brothers would likely have much reduced forces as they still have to deal with the 589 revolt in the Hold of the Sea Princes. With these southern Keolanders freed the Keoish armies swelled as some joined their ranks in vengeance, and the Scarlet occupational forces were seriously diminished. This way the taking of Westkeep after the liberation of Southern Keoland makes more sense, to me at least, than liberating it after taking Westkeep.

Exactly how long this liberation of Southern Keoland would take, as with how long it took to conquer in the first place, is an open matter. Again I prefer to have both the conquest and liberation to take a longer rather than a shorter period of time and thus make for a more epic struggle between Great Powers. But, despite my opinion on this, the evidence does not preclude one or the other, or both, from being lighting attacks with quick results. I think that 'officially' it should be stated that during these nebulous periods that the battle raged back and forth and the individual DMs can then decide exactly where was occupied when according to what is best for their story at the time. But if this approach is taken in the Living Greyhawk Campaign (or any other official form) it should be done with a most cautious eye on the consequences so that once a particular location's occupation during a certain time is stated in a future module or sourcebook, all subsequent works dealing with the area of southern Keoland be forced to take this into account. However, if this flexibility is too much because of WotC's suggested lower standards of fact-checking for Greyhawk writers, then these nebulous periods should be be provided with a single unambiguous chronology that is simple enough to grasp for even the laziest designer -- thus favouring a quick conquest and liberation in order to minimize the opportunities for any further corruptions and convolutions of the 'official' or 'canon' Greyhawk history. I realize that this sort of detail won't matter to the vast majority of players and/or DMs but for Greyhawk purists, like myself, it is an important consideration.

Regardless, in 591 when the Living Greyhawk campaign is to begin, Keoland's southern border once again stretches to the Hool Marshes and now reaches even beyond as the Keoish armies continue their imperial march...

FWIW, this is only my (unofficial) interpretation of when the Southern border of Keoland was where, YMMV. I hope that it is of some use to you, my fellow Greyhawk, and especially Keoland, fans. Gentle readers amongst you will forgive my inevitable errors in grammar and spelling, and I trust that you'll be kind enough to correct me on something that I may have misunderstood or not stately as clearly as I
should have, or add additional references that I have overlooked this evening. I will be considering this issue in more depth to determine the exact chronology, but I welcome any suggestions that you may have so that this chronology can be refined and improved both for my own campaign and for the Living Greyhawk effort.

P.S. For more information on the other events of the Greyhawk Wars involving Keoland see my message on the "Against the Giants: Combined Chronology". FYI, this message can be found in Morgan's Fantastic GreyTalk Archives:

http://24.112.96.246/Add/Greytalk.nsf/b44505cda4beea3285256664005e00fa/8525678a0009fae8852567d10025ca89?OpenDocument

I'll post this message to the Keoland group as it is particularly on topic for Keoish history. If I were to actually receive sufficient feedback, I could possibly be persuaded to revisit the issue to provide a complete Keoish chronology for the entire Greyhawk Wars somewhat earlier than I'd otherwise get around to it...

Jason
>:)

* * * * * * * * * * * * *
His Dread and Awful Presence,
Jason Verbitsky
hierax@home.com
http://hierax.com/greyhawk/

Future Timelines 3/3. LONG END [incomplete]

2010-01-17T11:59:00.000-08:00

Date sent: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:09:00 -0400
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Jay Simpson
Subject: [GREYTALK] Future Timelines 3/3. LONG END
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

This is the last of them for now. I don't want to bog down the list too much. Lemme know what you guys think.

597 Iuz crosses the Yol River and begins a pitched invasion of the Pale. Wintershiven is quickly surrounded by Iuz s mixed humanoid armies, as well as a stronger contingent of Trolls, reputedly from the Troll Fens.

In Keoland, Generals Hazifax and Bagnell take and secure the Yeomanry. Geoff and Sterich are now securely under Keoland s flag, and now have sizable armies and noble leaders to defend them. Tavish V orders his two favorite generals to begin a plan for reclaiming the lost coast lands.

598 Gruznor s troops take and sack Marner in Ratik. After stripping the Ratik capitol of as much supplies as possible, the rest is burned. Most of Marner s citizenry is captured and taken back to the Bone March to be used for different purposes. The men are enslaved and sent to work in the mines at Bellport and Johnsport, while the women are used for breeding purposes. Each woman is blessed with four sets of half orcan offspring, then killed. All the children of Marner are forced into the wilds of the Timberway Forest, left to the elements.

599 General Bagnell begins entrenching men in the Torcs. The cleansing of this swamp is a hard and well earned campaign. Bagnell will find himself still fighting in the infernal marshlands some three years later. Meanwhile, General Hazifax leads his men south, over a small arm of the Hellfurnaces and secretly skirts around the Jerlea Bay. This is to be a long expedition as well.

600 As Wintershiven in the Theocracy of the Pale sees the end of its third year of siege, aid from the south arrives. A large contingent of troops arrive from Urnst and aid in the liberation of the Pale s capital city. The King of Urnst times the attack so that, even as his troops are helping the much decimated Wintershiven, a second yet stronger force descends on Redspan. Iuz suffers a stifling defeat. In Suns ebb of this year, Urnst frees Rift Crag of the Iuz occupation as well.

601-602 The refugees from Tusmit, and Ekbir, allied with forces from Zeif and cavalry from the Paynims and Ull sweep down on the Kettite army from what appears to be no where. The united armies lay siege to Ket s capital city of Lopolla and crush the Kettite army after an 18 month struggle. The Kettites receive reinforcements from their newly founded Perrenland Vassal state. The final battle is long and hard, and rages for the better part of 3 days. In the end the Allied Forces prove victorious, the Kettite scourge is no more.

601 General Hazifax and his men arrive at the first of many Scarlet Brotherhood strongholds on the edges of the Amedio Jungle. The Brotherhood, not expecting such an attack, had kept the stronghold severely undermanned, compared to the size of troops that Hazifax brought with him. Over the course of the next year, Hazifax and his men are able to seize three additional Brotherhood strongholds with barely a sound made. Hazifax is also able to capture all but one of the ships docked at each stronghold. From his base in the Amedio, Hazifax starts bargaining with the local tribes and launching an all out guerilla warfare on all Scarlet Brotherhood controlled lands in the Amedio, using local [Missing the rest of the pages]

Re: Greyhawk Grumbler

2010-01-05T13:49:00.000-08:00

Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler
Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:07 PM
From: "Mark Carscadden"
To: "'greytalk'"

True, but IMO he would have at least implied printing presses existed somewhere - hey, it's not a big deal one way or the other for me, I just don't think it feels right.

----- Original Message -----
From: Vest III, Robert W
To: 'greytalk'
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I’m sure there are hundreds of things EGG didn’t bother mentioning simply because he didn’t feel such things necessary to play the game. After all, a printing press isn’t near as exciting as a city full of killer robots.

From: Mark Carscadden [mailto:markcarscadden@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:46 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I think a printing press is something that would be a better fit in the FR setting, IMO. Gygax would have certainly at least briefly mentioned something as significant as a printing press if it existed in his setting. But as always, that's the way it will be in MY Greyhawk campaign...

----- Original Message -----

From: Wade Nolen
To: 'greytalk'
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Insisting that the print run of the Grumbler is more than the population of the Free City of Greyhawk itself is the utmost sheer folly.

And beyond that … the “single guy” is doing the same thing in CoGH … no one said that these things are everywhere. No one said that there are more than just the Grumbler (although we know that there are two.) This is a localized thing, specific to Greyhawk City, and what’s more, there’s nothing (of which I am aware, other than the author’s post-script here) that it’s not wood-block printing, or something other than the “mechanized” stuff that you insist on. There were printing presses long before Industrialization or the Mechanized era.

Signature
Wade K. Nolen
aka "Icarus "
I'm off to gallivant among the clouds!
" ... and he did fly, and he was seen on the wings of the wind."

From: CJ MacLean [mailto:icar@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:57 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I'm not talking about a single guy with bits of clay producing 20 copies of something. I am talking about the level of mechanization society has to have for a press run of 5000-30,000 (or more).

From: Vest III, Robert W [mailto:rvest@ius.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:15 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

There is actually a canonical precedent for having printing presses in the Flanaess. See the Age of Worms backdrop article on Alhaster (Dungeon 131), which mentions an underground broadsheet in Alhaster called The Sinchaser Report.

Wayfarers Guide to the Teckla Republic

2010-01-05T13:42:00.000-08:00

Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:03:05 EST
From: Issak Haywood
Subject: Wayfarers Guide to the Teckla Republic

Hi all-
Well with the impending doom of the world I thought that I would email a few more of my Wayfarers Guides out.
Have a great weekend and new year - and celebrate the last year of the 20th century. Were still a year off from the MM!

The Wayfarers Guide to the Teckla Republic

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Location:Northern most portion of the Empire of Keoland. The eastern border is the Lort River, while the Margom River and the Rushmoor's are the northern border.
Area:

Languages:Keoish and Olvish being the most common.

Coinage:Gold Bar (10gp), Emperor (1pp), Gold Duke (1gp), Juzai (1ep), Teckla (5sp), Crown (1sp), Noble (5cp), Copper Common (1cp).

Government Type:Constitutinal Dukedom. The Duke holds most of the power, with elected officials of each of the territory cities. The elected representatives are elected by the people of the city, and represent them in all matters concerning the town in dealings with the Duke.

Industries:Agriculture, Fishing, Trade, Military, Herding, Textiles (fine cloth, wool, etc..)

Description:The Teckla Republic is one of the wealthiest territories in the Empire. The Teckla Plains, the Republics heartland, produces enough grain to feed the territory twice over. Fish are bountiful on both the Lort and Margom Rivers. Teckla merchants have traded profitably with other nations and territories, both near and far since the end of the First Imperialist Age of Keoland. The past Greyhawk Wars and the humanoid invasions of Geoff and Sterich had slightly beggared the territory by both the cost of the wars and the influx of people, however, with the Liberation of Sterich, that damage has since been cleared. During those days, the Republic had retained its power through trade and diplomacy.
The former Lord Duke of the Republic, now Emperor Adon E' Keirion, had proposed and instituted the annual athletic competition, the first was hosted by Dragaera City, and now is hosted by each of the cities every year.
The Republic is a founding member of the San-Giti Defense League, helping to discourage the invasions by the giants of Geoff, and in bringing those interested in re-taking the Lost Lands of Geoff.

Notable Sites:The Teckla Republic has several cities founded on trade.
Dragaera City (pop. 46,000??) is eastern most, on the Lort River, and is strongly garrisoned against any military threat. The People's Palace (pop.??), located in the center of the Republic, is a safe community with many grain silos and produces much of the Republic's agriculture. Erythane is a city and castle that was finished in Coldeven CY 583. It is in the western portion of the Republic and guards against possible attacks from the humanoids of Geoff and Sterich. Deppas Fang (pop. ??), is the center of caravan activities to the Duchy of Pohotha, Sandy Home County, Northwest Plains Territory and Korio County. Margom lies in the middle of the northwest portion of ht e territory, and maintains contact and trade with the nation of Gran March. Nenko is an impressive example of Keoish architecture. The castles splendor makes the rest of the city look shabby (a testimony to the beauty of the castle, as this is one of the most magnificent cities in the world), and even with a population of 12,000, the city boasts a sophisticated sewer system and is kept relatively clean. Many of the public buildings are made of stone and have graceful fluted columns. Although the city of Pepperfield (pop.2,000) is beautiful, many foreigners find it dull. The Pepperfieldians do not approve of drinking, gambling, or most other recreations of that sort. Mer Chang is veritable city of tents and campfires currently with an unknown population.
On the northwestern border of the Republic lies a vast and broad Rushmoor Swamp, a dangerous wetland where bandits and monsters thrive.

Flora & Fauna:The Teckla Republic has many different types of creatures and monsters. Visitors to the open country may find encounters with herds of cattle, horses, sheep, goats and even buffalo in the typical plains. The swamp is home to crocodiles, giant lizards, lizardmen, bandits, and possibly stranger creatures as well.
Populations in the Axewood include bears, boars, centaurs, and dryads, as well as ogres, orcs, and a group of Forest Gnomes. People have spotted wild pigs, deer, hares, swarms of insects and the occasional jaguar, displacer beasts and of course snakes.
Crocodiles, human colonists, hydras giant leeches, lizardmen, orcs, purple worms and giant snakes are just some of the things that can be found in the Rushmoor's, and don't forget about the infamous Looming Fortress.

Issak
Keoland@aol.com
http://members.xoom.com/wogkeoland
RPGA Member Theocracy of the Pale

Re: Vecna/migrations/Aerdy/Keoland (was:Vecna/migrations/Keoland)

2010-01-05T13:38:00.000-08:00

Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 03:20:41 -0500
From: Taras Cranden-Guarhoth
Subject: Re: Vecna/migrations/Aerdy/Keoland (was:Vecna/migrations/Keoland)

> Bias! Bias!

And you're just NOW noticing this? :)

> Mr. "I Love Aerdy" doesn't see as many meatsnmagicks for Keoland, yes?
It's because yer biased! The Valley of the Mage is *much* more mysterious and

I'd like to point out that it's an Aerdi who's ruling the Vale now. :P

> mighty than anything the decadent east has produced, and the stronghold of Vecna's empire witnessed things more potent and awful than ever the mild Vecna's empire was overrated. After all, if all those Suel managed to migrate so successfully through the area, it obviously wasn't that big and
powerful. :)

> ancestors of Tenha dreamt up. You don't think Celene, with all its ancient
> glamour, can hide their kingdom out of the sight of a rampaging horde of drug-starved Suloise or two? Keoland is the home of 90% of the surviving

No, I don't think that Celene can. After all, they were so scared of all those migrating Suel that they let the Keoish dominate them for hundreds of years. It took them that long to figure out that the migrations where over and kick out the Keoish. Which just happened to coincide with the Keoish Expansionistic Phase.

> treasures of the Suel Imperium, and the main destination for relics saved

This I have a lot of trouble beliving, since it was those Houses who had the most time to pack up their junk and run who didn't settle in Keoland. It was those who had the least time (ie: the Rhola and Neheli, the LATECOMERS to the migration game), and thus would have had the least treasures to bring with them. Odds are, most of the treasures ended up either in Oerid hoards, Urnst, or the Scarlet Brotherhood. Or completely lost in various dungeons.

> from the Ashen Desert. The fledgling Oerid outlander kingdoms were summarily
> crushed by the overwhelming might of the Suel public relations engines, their
> relics siezed at bargain basement prices. If the arch-tormenters of the

Yep. The Suel relics siezed at bargain basement prices. That's exactly what the Oerids did to all those Suel who fell into the lands they wanted. Like those of Urnst or the Iron League. Unlike those of Keoland, who didn't have time to flee with too much.

> underworld seem to be showing undue interest in the Great Kingdom, it's because they figured the land to be full of saps and easy marks. It's

Heh. Or maybe they just realize where the REAL power of the continent is, not in some two-bit, worn out, tired nation that was so insignificant, it barely got a page worth of information written about it. :P

> Keoland that has he ancient sites of *good* and *balance*, something the peoples of the east were afraid would hurt their chances in picking up chicks.

Name one of Good. I don't recall any, and I'm wondering if you saw something I missed, or if you're just making this up.

As for Neutral, bah, who cares about a bunch of fence-sitters? If they can't choose a side, they'll make a nice red stain on the grass when it comes time to go to war. >:)

> PS The Barrier Peaks? The Crook of Rao? The Crystalmists in general, and the alien secrets therein? The Hellfurnaces, the weapons of giants, and the
> eldritch chambers of the aboleth?

I refuse to recognize Expedition of the Barrier Peaks as one. After all, the Keoish didn't get to it. It just sat there unopened for all that time until some adventurers were sent in to hack up everything that moved.

And the Crook of Rao was in Aerdy for a time, too. After all, it was Drax the Invulnerable of Rel Astra who pawned off that useless trinket to the Canon of Veluna. Heh. The funny things those tourists will fall for. :P

I know of no secrets in the Crystalmists.

I don't regard a volcano as a mystical site.

I don't know what giant's weapons you're referring to, but I doub there's anything I'd consider mystical in there (if it's not unique, it's not even really that close, unless it's something that isn't made by people or monsters, like a dweomer stone).

And as for the aboleth....I thought you were championing good and neutral sites...not sites as evil as the Cauldron of Night. :P

> Probably not. He wouldn't share private megalomaniacal schemes with just any
> outsiders.

True, but outsiders would have noticed large numbers of Flan being forced to worship him, with rather large sacrifices being made (think Dragon-King of Tyr from Dark Sun for an example) as opposed to, well, people giving lip service and getitng away with it.

> They didn't care. They just closed the doors. The Suel never noticed them.

You're right. The Suel barely noticed the speed-bump that is the elves of Celene. Just rolled right over them until the elves admitted defeat and ran and hid. :)

==
Taras Guarhoth, Sage of House Cranden
http://www.bestweb.net/~guarhoth/

Chapter 1 - Fortune's Map

2010-01-05T10:52:00.000-08:00

Date sent: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:05:38 EDT
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
From: NiteScreed NiteScreed@AOL.COM
Subject: [GREYTALK] Chapter 1 – Fortune’s Map
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

The Journal of Rekham Al-Mudri
Being An Account Of A Journey Into The Far West

Chapter One – Fortune’s Map

I was born into a merchant family in Tusmit but have never considered myself a native of that land. As is the practice among merchants, I was apprenticed at an early age to my uncle, Alain Nothman of Ket, who had the good fortune to marry my aunt, Alia, thereby increasing the fortunes of both families. A merchant of Oerdian extraction, it is not unusual that Alain would marry a Bakluni, at least not in Ket. Ket is in all ways cosmopolitan. It is neither of the east nor of the west, neither savage nor civilized but all this and more. All manner of peoples, races and religions mix, more or less comfortably, in Ket as befits its position as the crossroads between the Flanaess and the Inner West. I am by choice a Kettite.

My education was no more than what might be expected living as a merchant in a cosmopolitan mecca. That I have some skill with numbers, being able to quickly calculate sums without an abacus, and a fair memory for names and dates won me a place as an accountant for my uncle. That I was young and vigorous as well meant I could and would be sent with caravans to deliver goods as well as greeting those caravans that arrived at our business address in Lopolla. The older accountants, grown sedentary or settled, did not begrudge me the opportunity to see the world. It was in such employ that I made a fateful journey to the City of Greyhawk in my twenty-second year. We were first to Mitrik and then down the Velverdyva to the Nyr Dyv before on to the City of Greyhawk in the company of some Rhenee bargemen.

Of our merchanting in Greyhawk little needs be said. We were about our business with a load of mixed rugs, Kettish, Ullite and Paynim with some Tusman and fewer Zeifari or Ekbirian, and concluded matters without incident. We also carried as well some secretive cargo for the wizard Rary, a favorite son of Ket. I know not the nature of the cargo for it was intrusted solely to the caravan master but the difficulty he had in arranging to see the wizard allowed me freedom to
explore the city in a manner that would not otherwise have been possible.

Greyhawk is a great and overgrown metropolis with many twisting streets and allies. It is very much like Lopolla in this respect but greater in size by half. It is far more open seeming, not in the least because there is no everpresent dusty haze blowing in from the Paynim Plain. The river wind makes the city seem ever clan and fresh. Architecturally, Greyhawk sports fewer buildings of any height than Lopolla and builds more with stone. The sun dried, red brick buildings of Lopolla routinely top six or eight stories, while in Greyhawk siz is unusual. It was a simple enough matter then to navigate by the sun, not obscured by high tenements and clouds of dust, as I wandered absorbing the sights and sounds of the alien city.

Of my sojourn in this city of the unfathomable east no more needs be said before coming to my discovery. In my wanderings, I looked over the city with a merchant’s eye and a boy’s wonder. It did not escape me that a clever purchase, being returned to Lopolla, might fetch a handsome sum that I could then invest in my uncle’s business to better my lot; for I did not intend to spend my life accounting for other’s fortunes alone. Entertaining such avaricious thoughts, and lost in reverie if the truth be told, I wandered then into a passage of no particular note when I spied the sort of emporium commonly encountered in Lopolla. Zreed’s Antiquary promised any manner of oddments that might suit my need. I entered upon the shop, determined to explore.

What I found was simple enough. It was a map. Crudely drawn and lacking in detail, it was offered for a pittance, probably not cast off as trash by merest chance. Doubtless the proprietor considered it worthless but I essayed my fortune in its faded parchment. You must understand that as a merchant I have a passing familiarity with maps. I am no expert cartographer but I know what is mapped and what is not, where the caravans have pulled back the corners of the world and where knowledge vanishes into a misty horizon. The map clearly showed the outline of the Flanaess, my adopted homeland of Ket and the Inner West but it revealed much more. It was nothing less than a map of Oerth! It pushed back the horizon to reveal the lands of the Far West! Here was opportunity! I purchased the trifle with concealed glee.

Copyright 1998. NiteScreed@aol.com. All rights reserved.

RUMUR! Meet the New Hawk

2009-12-13T13:07:00.000-08:00

RE: [greytalk] RUMUR! Meet the New Hawk
Thursday, November 19, 2009 10:07 PM
From: "Tom Roberts" Add sender to Contacts
To: greytalk@canonfire.com

I think Nitescreed's record still stands as sole ban-shee from Greytalk.

Randy's not popular and his vision of Greyhawk marches with very few, but he's able to express his opinion here, should he choose to. It might be the equivalent of Thomas Scott's return to Fort Garry, but there's nothing stopping him (AFAIK). I don't recall any announcement of his ban-ishment after the last War (back about 4 years ago if memory serves).

Tom Roberts
It is of little comfort to me that it is not my end of the boat that is sinking.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: shabbadoo@hotmail.com
To: bluesrule14@hotmail.com; greytalk@canonfire.com
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 05:06:53 -0800
Subject: RE: [greytalk] RUMUR! Meet the New Hawk

Ah, just the list. I think Gary is the sole moderator of the list.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bluesrule14@hotmail.com
To: greytalk@canonfire.com
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 00:02:41 -0600
Subject: RE: [greytalk] RUMUR! Meet the New Hawk

I'm the last person to usually nitpick, so while Cebrion is right about Canonfire itself, the reference to this discussion was banning just from the Greytalk list. At any rate I'm no expert on either, but do (we) canonfire admins even have access to the list?

mortellan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: shabbadoo@hotmail.com
To: breeyark@gmail.com; greytalk@canonfire.com
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:31:40 -0800
Subject: RE: [greytalk] RUMUR! Meet the New Hawk - WoG to Restart/Reimagine in 4e

As I do most of the work right now, I guess I am the current "senior" Canonfire! admin/moderator. I don't have many of the mad skillz that chatdemon has, but I do what I can.

So far as I know, the only people who have been banned from Canonfire! have been spammers, and those who have posted offensive or inappropriate material(usually spammers). Flamewars usually result in posts being deleted, and perhaps a PM sent to the involved parties. The admins have given people quite a bit of leeway. Perhaps this level of tolerance is due to the nature of Greyhawk fans themselves- they are a vast and varied mongrel breed, and they won't always see things eye-to-eye, let alone get along. Some people are more caustic than others, some people are overly sensitive, and yet others have the bad habit of reading things into what other people post when they shouldn't. There will eventually be disagreements and misunderstandings among posters, and that includes the admins too. This doesn't mean we can't all get along in a somewhat civil manner though. There is a limit to what will be tolerated, but I don't recall anybody having gone so far as to cross the line, such that they were banned. Despite any disagreements, most people can agree on one thing: they like to discuss Greyhawk. So far as that is the main thing going on, and nothing extraneous to that gets out of hand, then nobody will be banned.

Hoping that nobody decides they want to test my theory anytime soon,

---Cebrion(Canonfire! Admin/Moderator) ;)

Re: Geographic and political absurdities or why the xoom Keoland writeup bites

2009-12-13T12:46:00.000-08:00

Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 14:04PM PST
From: Taras Cranden-Guarhoth
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Geographic and political absurdities or why the xoom Keoland writeup bites

> I'll look into the two less outrageous of the claims:

First of all, the author has stated that while based on canon, it's not completely canon.

> a) the Brotherhood has superiority on the seas. Any naval campaign is going to be a lost cause unless the brotherhood's control of the seas can be broken. Unfortunately, there is no easy way out
> on this one, as unlike demons, there is nothing to send the numerous seamonsters back into the depths. All the weirdos and pirates on the costs of the Jerlea bay aren't likely to be of
> tremendous help and are not likely to mount a big united campaign.
> Keoland does not have the option of an allout naval campaign against the Brotherhood, as it would leave their coast and ports
> open to the brotherhood forces coming from say the lordship of the isles. Similarily, if the keolandish naval forces do not gain a definate upper hand, they may get pitched between two
> brotherhood forces in the Jerlea Bay.

Flaw: This assumes that there's nothing else, like, say the Sea Barons, Nyrond, Ahlissa, not to mention that big blockade they're trying to run (it's gotta be tough to blockade such a huge expanse of open water). The moment the SB and their lackeys went ahead and tried to concentrate fully on something like overpowering Keoland navally, everyone else would notice the sudden drop in SB activity, and pounce. I think the SB would be less likely to interfere with Keoland invading a province they've pretty much lost if it'd mean they'd face increaded raids within provinces that they're not losing and are a lot closer to home.

> b) the hool marshes is a possibility, but it would have very grim results. Hool marshes are after all a big part of what has kept the Keoland out of there for so long. Just about the only way
> of moving large amounts of troops through the Hool Marches would be building special roads - most probably from treetrunks -
> over which the troops could move. Reinforcements and supplies would be a severe problem, especially should something happen to the long marsh road (which does not require all that high
> level mage). The army also has the chance of the road being destroyed at which point they are stuck in the middle of a large marsh with limited supplies...

IIRC, Keoland already went through the Hools to invade the Sea Princes once.
So it CAN be done. Plus, they could go by barge down the Javan, making the amount of marshlands that they'd need to cross significantly less.

> That all above there assumes that the locals in the Hold do not side with the Brotherhood against the new enemy - the Keoland. Keoland and the Hold have never had particularily good relations, and while they probably would at least initally cheer anybody fighting the Brotherhood, there is no
> reason to think that they like Keoland even a tiny bit more than the Brotherhood.

The locals consist of a rather large variety of peoples...Olman and Amedian savages, natives of the Sea Princes, slaves taken from around the Flanaess who were owned by the Sea Princes or Scarlet Brotherhood...I think the Keoish would face less opposition than you'd think. After all, the Olman detest the Brotherhood, as does anyone of non-Suel extraction. That alone would make them more inclined to side with the Keoish. As for the native Holders, well, considering that they all got made slaves by the SB, they'd probabily be a bit more inclined to side with the Keoish, in the hopes of getting some power back. I doubt too many would rebel against a well-trained Keoish army. But a lot may conspire behind the scenes.

> The inital cheering would soon be replaced by backstabing and sabotage.

Sounds like the makings of a campaign. And, of course, since each petty noble wants to rule a free Sea Princes, they wouldn't want to let the plans of the other nobles succeed.

> a) has a lot of dissent against any further wars due to excessive losses, inc. back at home (assassinations, etc.)

Well, there WAS a civil war, providing we're thinking of the same page.

> c) must hold in check a very troublesome new province.

And? Like the SB didn't have to hold in check a very troublesome province? That's just a fact of conquering.

> a) Yeomanry is bound to dislike the presence of Keoland on more than one of it's borders and would naturally provide help - whetever offical or not - to any dissent in Sterich.

The Yeomanry would be disinclined to do much of anything against Keoland. They do best in defense, by arming everyone. Now, if they took all these new troops to war, they'd run out of food, since they'd basically empty their country in order to use their main advantage.

> b) The Sterich refugees are bound to dislike any military action in Sterich that does not involve them, and a military action involving them will not lead to Sterich becoming part of
> Keoland.

Sterich refugees are a non-factor. A) They couldn't hold their own country in the first place. B) They are scattered about all over the place. Not all of them went to Keoland. In fact, those that had the least love for the Keoish were probabily those who went the farthest from Keoland. Those who saw Keoland as a strong, protective land that could keep them safe were probabily those who fled to Keoland.

> c) Gran Marsh, Veluna and the Ulek states are bound to strongly oppose any attempts of Keoland to annex Sterich. As Keoland cannot allow itself to be put to the situation that all it's
> neighbours have many axes to grind with it, it will not be able to undertake it. It would just not survive if its border areas and Good Hills decided to leave. It would immediately leave to
> the rest of the Keoland being split into three separate parts.

He's already stated that the three Uleks were backing Keoland. And as for Veluna, it's a non-issue. Veluna has two countries between in and Keoland. I seriously doubt they're worrying about Keoland with Ket on their border and a war with Iuz going on in their backyard (Furyondy). Which just leaves the Gran March. If the Gran March has any intelligence, it'd shut up, given that Ket's running around to the north, Veluna is distracted, and the Uleks have sided with the Keoish...leaves them pretty much alone and vulnerable...wouldn't want to give those Keoish any reason to invade, now would we? And the Good Hills...IIRC, that's the area that broke away in the civil war and had to be, erm, pacified.

> d) instead of guarding a border along a river Keoland will get new borders, inc. a very extensive border with Geoff and in the mountains, and will have to guard it against further incursions
> by giants, etc.

Which I'm sure Keoland is more than capabale of. After all, if the threats in the 591 CY era aren't so great as to stop the Sterich from doing it canonically, there wouldn't be enough to bother the Keoish from doing it in the same timeframe.

> C. Getting the Ulek States under it's banner. Yeah, right. And both Demogorgon and Grazzt reformed themselves and are now living on the plains of Elusium with other good gods...

If you disagree with his heresies, that's fine. But there's no need to discourage him from posting by mocking him. It speaks more about you than it does about him.

> Where Keoland would get all those resources that would take is another matter entirely.

Let's see...it's a big country...it was the only big country that wasn't directly involved in the Wars which troubled so much of the Flanaess a while back...odds are, it already had the resources. Gearing itself up for the next round so that it wouldn't get caught off guard like Furyondy (or worse, Tenh) were. It just decided to put the war into it's own terms, and on other people's soil, instead of it's own.

==
Taras Guarhoth, Sage of House Cranden
http://www.bestweb.net/~guarhoth/

Keoland's Climate & Geography

2009-12-13T12:32:00.000-08:00

Subject: [GREYTALK] Keoland's Climate & Geography
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:16:36 +0900
From: Craig & Julie
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Hi curently developing Keoland for use in an upcoming caampaign (U1-3) and have ben working on the regions geography and climate. If anyone hs aany suggestions or feedback I'd love to hear from you. I'm also looking for information on Gradsul- ruler, maps, anything would be fine. Anyway here is my taake on Keoland's geography & climate...

Climate
Keoland enjoys a temperate, Mediterranean style climate. Summers tend to be long, hot, dry and dusty with the temperatures often reaching into the mid to high thirties (Celsius). Winters tend to be mild with the temperature seldom dipping below freezing, except in the northern provinces.

The climate is driest in the central and western regions; areas close to the two main river valleys, the Sheldomar and the Javan, use irrigation and canals to bring water to the crops during the driest months. Gradsul and the southern coast has the highest annual rainfall. In most areas precipitation occurs mainly during the spring months when the moisture heavy south-easterly winds sweep in from the Azure Sea bringing the rains which replenishes and nourishes the soils. Summer is dry often brings droughts especially to the inland regions. In both spring and autumn the
plains are often swept by fierce thunderstorms, cumuli-nimbus clouds tower up into the stratosphere, bringing heavy rains and sometimes even tornados.

Keoland's climate is due both to it's geographic location and the prevailing long term synoptic weather patterns in Greyhawk. In the winter months the prevailing winds in the Flanaess come from the north-east, sweeping down across the central kingdoms and into Keoland, bringing snow to many northern regions. These cold winds bring little or no rain or snow to Keoland but do deposit some snow on the Lortmil Mountains and bring frosts and cold temperatures to the northern provinces of the kingdom.

In spring the south east trade winds arrive, blowing in from the Solnor Ocean and Azure Sea and pushing the winter winds back northward. The south easterlies are warm and moisture laiden and as they meet the cold dry northerly winds they bring rainfall to the lands. These spring fronts bring heavy rains to Keoland and the other nations of the Sheldomar Valley for about a month during Planting but as quickly as they arrive the rains depart and the long hot summer begins.

As well as having heavier rainfall the coastal regions are also more humid than the central and northern provinces, due to the influence of the Azure Sea. Another feature of the climate of Keoland is the hot, dry Fohn wind, called the Dragon's Breathe by locals, that blows in from the Sea of Dust beyond the Crystalmist Mountains. This super dry wind dries the land as it sucks the last of the moisture out of the air as it blows down from the high mountain valleys. The Dragon's Breathe brings high winds, dust clouds and scorching temperatures to Keoland during summer.

Keoland's climate has a definite north-south and east to west gradient. The central and northern regions tend to be both hottest and driest during the summer months and the coolest during winter as they are furthest from the moderating influences of the Azure Sea as so have the greatest extremes in temperature. Summers tend to be coolest in the good Hills where the elevation affects the temperature and during winter these hills are sometimes blanketed in snow but such snow seldom remains for more than a day or two.

Geography
Keoland is a large kingdom in the South West portion of the Flanaess. The Rushmoors form the nominal western boundary of the kingdom while in Azure Sea, some 600 miles south of these marshes form the southern boundary. To the east the mighty Sheldomar River is the kingdoms eastern border while the Javan River bounds it to the west. In the far north western corner of the kingdom the most recent acquisition to the lands, the County of Javan lies on the western shore of the Javan and this province stretches as far west as the Stark Mounds.

Most of the kingdom lies within the Sheldomar River Basin and consists of a huge plain that stretches from Gradsul in the South to the Thornwood, the capital of Bissel far to the north, a distance of some 1,000 miles.

The country generally slopes from west to east slowly rising in elevation the further west one travels. The vast plains of Keoland barely rise more than 300' in height from the Sheldomar River to the foot hills of the Good Hills, some 250 miles further west. These highlands are the only hills of any note in Keoland, and reach a peak of some 1500 feet above sea level. They are named the Good Hills for they are both fertile and have a favourable climate for growing crops and for orchards as well. Apples, pears, apricots, peaches, olives and even some citrus fruits are all grown in the valleys and slopes of the Good Hills. Beyond the hills the land falls away sharply as the hills drop down the Javan River Valley.

The most fertile soils are found closest to the Javan and Sheldomar Rivers where the annual floods deposits alluvial material that supplies the sustenance for the regions cops. The further north and west one travels from the Sheldomar the drier and stonier the soils get and the less suitable they become for arable farming. Instead the northern and central areas tend to rely more upon the raising of livestock, especially sheep and goats, for their livelihood.

Because the richest soils tend to be located nearest the Sheldomar Valley it isn't surprising to find that the majority of the kingdom's population live near this vital waterway, in fact more than 60% of the population live within 100 miles of the Sheldomar river, in the three main provinces of Gradsul, Sheldomar and Middlemarch. Population density is lessens in the central and western areas of the these provinces. The least populated provinces are in the far northern borderland provinces of (Javan, Rushmoor and Northmarch as well as the Southern Marches which lie between Dreadwood and the Azure Sea. The cooler, more temperate climate of the Good Hills, with its fertile soils, is also a favourable place to live so this region
tends to be quite densely settled.

(Note I've divided the realm into 9 provinces & am intending to start a write up on each soon).

Hope you enjoyed this

Craig Courtis

DMD: For your Campaign, the Dragons Rest

2009-12-13T12:09:00.000-08:00

Date sent: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 -0400
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Noel Graham
Subject: [GREYTALK] DMD: For your Campaign, the Dragons Rest
Originally to: greyhawk@MPGN.COM
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Haile and Fair Greetings All,

My apologies, I ran short of room. As this is the meat of the story, so to speak, please make effort not to post questions or comments regarding this section within eyesight of players.

Watcher
Vision.at.Work@juno.com

The Dragons Rest (continued)

FOR YOUR CAMPAIGN

Unlike many Verboboncers, Senan harbors worries about the fate of good beyond the borders of the viscounty. He has heard news from places close and far; news that does not rest well on his ears. In turn, he sometimes passes this along to traveling fellowships in search of heroic adventure. He'll even keep messages and offer storage space to expedite such plans.
As such Senan can be used to lead into adventures nearly anywhere in the central and western Flanaess. Likewise, he can provide a logical game mechanism for introducing novice PCs into established groups, or to bring together surviving members from decimated companies.

Over the years, a considerable amount of effort and vandalism have gone into the search for Toblin's map. Some say this is in vain. Instead, they argue it's more likely Toblin kept a journal (bound in hide, of course) and it's this which has been secreted.
If it exists, the field of search for this lost treasure could be narrowed considerably, but the tome would be more valuable as a guide to the Gnarleys and upper Welkwood. No doubt much of what is practical concerning the nature of those woodlands and their denizens would be found between its covers, possibly with the names of some of Toblin's longer-lived contacts.
DM's needn't fear imparting instant wealth should PCs somehow locate the dragon's former lair. Its caves and modest horde were almost certainly looted long ago by Celenian elves who would have tracked the wyrm from its intrusion into the southern Welkwood.
The current inhabitants, say, a band of gnolls with flind leaders, a shaman of Gorellik, and a pack of hyena pets, are not expected to react well to interlopers. If the PCs are particularly strong or magic heavy, substitute a shaman of Yeenoghu commanding a force of humanoid zombies and ghouls/ghasts. If this yet proves insufficient, allow the PCs their hard-fought victory. There are others within the forests that will take notice when the gnolls are gone.

::SPOILER::
DMs only beyond this point. Remember players, it only ruins the adventure for you to know.
*
*
*
*
Additional Notes:

In the home campaign ::smile::, Toblin didn't slay the dragon. It really is a tall tale.
The elves of Celene had, indeed, tracked the wyrm from its depature from the Pomarj, launching harrying attacks once it was convinced to bypass the majority of the olvenrealm. It so happens the badly wounded drake had all but escaped the relentless elves with it fell upon Toblin's group, the Freeholders (originally from the Yeomanry).
Believing its salvation had been at hand, it turned its remaining rage upon them. They're lucky still to have *any * survivors. The elves recovered the trail and continued pursuing the wyrm only to arrive during its death throws. Toblin had a minor *altercation * with them over possession of the carcass, but once they revealed their strength, he acquiesced. In fairness, the elves took what they could carry and left Toblin with the remainder. Thus, the dragon's rest.
Toblin never found the lair nor treasure because the wyrm had neither. He *was * an accomplished yarn-spinner, however, so made good use of the encounter, sans the elves of course. Oddly enough, a new great (make that GREAT) green wyrm inhabits the Gnarleys (Kaivertaurosc the Wight Wyrm) that those in search of Toblin's treasure might just find!
Kai is most unusual for her kind. More on her will be forthcoming in a future issue of DRAGON, in my article “Wyrms of the Flanaess”. If forced to significantly abridge her entry (due to page-count limitations), I'll make an effort to post the important remainder to the List.

Re: greytalk Digest 24 Nov 2009 04:14:43 -0000 Issue 1134

2009-12-07T08:52:00.000-08:00

Re: greytalk Digest 24 Nov 2009 04:14:43 -0000 Issue 1134
Monday, November 23, 2009 11:18 PM
From: "Brian McRae"
To: greytalk-digest-help@canonfire.com
Cc: greytalk@canonfire.com

Reminds me of something that a scholarly wizard did in my campaign. The wizard chronicled his adventures through the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun in great detail, and had 200 hand-scribed copies made at great expense. He was amazed at how quickly the copies sold. After a visit from representatives of some very powerful and influential religions and arch-mages. He kind of understood that the books were likely being studied by top men. Top men.

As to printing, wood block print would work well, and even simple movable type(wood letter blocks in a frame) is doable. However, with spells like copy(a dirt cheap 1st level spell from the 2e "Wizard's Handbook") in existence, if it does exist in a particular DM's campaign, circulating even books becomes much more simple. Now, with regards to movable type, it would take even less time and expense to just have a spell caster cast a spell that changes the shape of the wood block stamp to be embossed with reverse images of the required type/images, and then you just print as much as you want to. Simple tech more easily implemented by the simple application of magic.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:14 PM, wrote:

greytalk Digest 24 Nov 2009 04:14:43 -0000 Issue 1134
Topics (messages 13419 through 13422):
Re: Greyhawk Grumbler
13419 by: ukegreg
13420 by: Kent Goertzen
13421 by: Chris Anderson
13422 by: Tracy Johnson

Administrivia:

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "ukegreg"
To: "'greytalk'"
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:50:27 -0800
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

If you want historical precedent for printing I recommend “woodblock prints”. You take a block of wood and carve it into a huge ink stamp basically. The effort it takes to create a set of hardwood plates for one ‘book’ is enormous though. Only major religions and/or countries would bother, and then only for super important books.

I agree with the others that an easily modifiable mass-produced newspaper is probably beyond the scope of the setting. Ideally technology should advance to prevent a setting from stagnating, but if you aren’t careful you might ruin the atmosphere. It’s also worth noting that there are some VERY smart villains in the campaign setting who would feel threatened by a printing press and try to subvert or destroy it immediately. If you’ve got PC’s running it they might get in serious trouble for printing the wrong thing. Imagine the party bard composing some super-motivational “Anti-Iuz” article and then spreading two hundred thousand copies throughout the Flanaess…

“Master, you need to have a look at this…”
“WHERE THE HELL DID THIS COME FROM!?”
“I guess there’s some guy in Greyhawk City making them.”
“HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOING ON!?”
“Couple of months I guess. He’s got this really talented bard doing the illustrations.”
“ILLUSTRATIONS!?”
“Yep. There’s a naked tri-fold drawing of your mom on page 17. Apparently Iggwilv made scantily-clad-sorceress of the month. They’re calling her ‘Miss Fireseek’. We’ve seen them pinned-up in every barracks in Furyo-”
“FIIIIIIND HIIIIIIIIIIIM!!!!”

From: Vest III, Robert W [mailto:rvest@ius.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:15 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

There is actually a canonical precedent for having printing presses in the Flanaess. See the Age of Worms backdrop article on Alhaster (Dungeon 131), which mentions an underground broadsheet in Alhaster called The Sinchaser Report.

From: CJ MacLean [mailto:icar@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 3:04 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

From: Wade Nolen [mailto:icarusatb@yahoo.com]

"I’m beginning to think that people aren’t listening to points being made, because all three of these have been refuted, over and over."

Me too. The kind of broadsheet designed to be read by thousands of people didn't happen until the mechanized printing press. Commoners didn't have access to newspapers until the 19th century, even now in unindustrialized nations newspapers can be hard to find because paper isn't a commodity that is easy to get or make without industrialization/motorization.

The examples that you keep pulling out to defend your arguments are edicts or proclamations that were read by an official and then posted in a public place, NOT given to every commoner to read. Even the later broadsheets were for merchants and the upper class not for lower caste society.

In game terms paper is costly, depending on where you look a single sheet is 1gp or more. To circulate a paper of 5000 copies (a reasonable amount given Greyhawks size) and sell it for a copper piece would mean a massive loss per issue. This cost doesn't reflect the cost of the machine/spell/scribes/time/ink/retailers that would also be needed to make the newspaper exist. No one could afford to take this loss, and no powerful businessman would lose this cash when they can hire a bard, beggar, crier, or rumormonger to get the information out at a fraction of the cost.

A newspaper doesn't make business sense, It would most likely be suppressed by the government, and while it may be historically possible to create a broadsheet, it isn't historically possible to have the circulation it would need to reach a debatably literate peasant population.

CJ

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Kent Goertzen
To:
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:46:49 -0600
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Time, effort (woodblock prints for example), and cost (paper really wouldn't be cheap in that period), would really prohibit it.

As far as a setting precedent, Forgotten Realms right before the switch to 4e Chapbooks filtering around Water deep weren't uncommon. But only those who were wealthy were really able to afford to produce them. Not sure what time period you've moved forward to. Living Greyhawk would probably be a 200-400 years behind where Forgotten Realms was in terms of technological advancement. Where FR is closer to 15th-17th century and GH closer to 13th-14th imo.

Kent Goertzen

From: ukegreg@yahoo.com

“Master, you need to have a look at this…”
“WHERE THE HELL DID THIS COME FROM!?”
“I guess there’s some guy in Greyhawk City making them.”
“HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOING ON!?”
“Couple of months I guess. He’s got this really talented bard doing the illustrations.”
“ILLUSTRATIONS!?”
“Yep. There’s a naked tri-fold drawing of your mom on page 17. Apparently Iggwilv made scantily-clad-sorceress of the month. They’re calling her ‘Miss Fireseek’. We’ve seen them pinned-up in every barracks in Furyo-”
“FIIIIIIND HIIIIIIIIIIIM!!!!”
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lol, :D

Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Chris Anderson
To: Kent Goertzen
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:34:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Paper costs are not a problem. They are based on historical western European paper costs... so you would think that they are accurate, but they're not.

Western Europeans lost access to cheap writing paper when the Mediterranean was blockaded by the Arabs in the 700's. Papyrus is extremely cheap to make, lasts a long time, and is able to be printed on. However, when Islam took away Egypt and northern Africa, and conquered Spain, western Europe lost access to papyrus.

As a result, they turned to vellum/parchment... which is a processed animal hide. Making vellum is expensive in time, materials, and skills. So much so, that vellum was traditionally reused by scraping it clean of ink.

Rag paper was a closely guarded secret that traveled from China. Those who knew how to make it forced you to pay dearly for it... they could do this because there was no cheaper alternative. Prices for rag paper were relatively low in the middle east, because it had to compete with papyrus. They were higher in western Europe because the only competition was vellum/parchment.

So, without the Arab blockade of the Mediterranean, prices for paper in western Europe would not have been high.

You can tell this because costs of paper in Roman times were low... because trade flowed freely to Egypt. However, costs of paper in Italy during the middle ages was high, because there was no trade to Egypt.

Now, in Greyhawk, there is no Arab blockade. Trade flows freely (with some local exceptions). There is no need for high paper prices due to artificial shortages.

Woodblocks are not costly to make compared to copyists, and there is a really, really good reason to use them instead of copyists: reducing mistakes.

Copyists produced many grammar and subject matter mistakes due to the process. During Carolingian times, this was such a problem that new fonts, grammar, and punctuation were introduced in an effort to reduce copyist mistakes.

Woodblocks, once they're correct, are perfect time and again until the wood is pressed down over time and it has to be created again.

Now for rapidly changing news, I would agree that carving a woodblock over the course of a day to tell the day's news won't happen. But for news that needs to be reproduced exactly, or for holy books, or for items which must not have mistakes, it's a perfect solution.

-- Chris

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Kent Goertzen wrote:

Time, effort (woodblock prints for example), and cost (paper really wouldn't be cheap in that period), would really prohibit it.

As far as a setting precedent, Forgotten Realms right before the switch to 4e Chapbooks filtering around Water deep weren't uncommon. But only those who were wealthy were really able to afford to produce them. Not sure what time period you've moved forward to. Living Greyhawk would probably be a 200-400 years behind where Forgotten Realms was in terms of technological advancement. Where FR is closer to 15th-17th century and GH closer to 13th-14th imo.

Kent Goertzen

From: ukegreg@yahoo.com

“Master, you need to have a look at this…”
“WHERE THE HELL DID THIS COME FROM!?”
“I guess there’s some guy in Greyhawk City making them.”
“HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOING ON!?”
“Couple of months I guess. He’s got this really talented bard doing the illustrations.”
“ILLUSTRATIONS!?”
“Yep. There’s a naked tri-fold drawing of your mom on page 17. Apparently Iggwilv made scantily-clad-sorceress of the month. They’re calling her ‘Miss Fireseek’. We’ve seen them pinned-up in every barracks in Furyo-”
“FIIIIIIND HIIIIIIIIIIIM!!!!”

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lol, :D

Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tracy Johnson
To: greytalk list
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:38:30 -0500
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler
On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 17:34 -0800, Chris Anderson wrote:
> Paper costs are not a problem. They are based on historical western
> European paper costs... so you would think that they are accurate, but
> they're not.
>

I don't think it matters as far as a Fantasy setting is concerned. The
overuse of magic bypassed the use of paper. I compare this to the
ubiquitous rise of today's Internet. Because of it, the traditional
newspaper is failing, because they cannot find a business model that
will support paper. (Similar to game companies that publish paper are
going under.)

Much in the same way, the all-pervasive use of scrying, seeking,
clairvoyant, clairaudience type of magic doesn't not allow a newspaper
business model to develop, because the opportunity was bypassed.
Besides, there are easier ways to find news in Greyhawk!

As was noticed on by an intern looking over the shoulder of Otiluke in
standing before one of the numerous Palantir's at the Greyhawk school of
magic library:

...

--
BT
Tracy Johnson
Old telnet games at 198.212.189.111

NNNN

RttKotB review

2009-12-07T08:49:00.000-08:00

Subject: [GREYTALK] RttKotB review
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 22:41:50 EDT
From: "Nathan E. Irving>"
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

OK, I didn't want to comment on Return to the Keep on the Borderlands until I'd read it. Here goes.

Overall - 9 out of 10. I think this is a great adventure.

Canon Greyhawk - 2 out of 10. In my recollection, the World of Greyhawk was mentioned five times. One reference to the Sea of Dust, one to the Yeomanry, one to Wee Jas, one to St. Cuthbert, and one to the Lendore Isles. These were far outnumbered by references to Nergal, Erishkigal, Hispis, Apep, Cathos City, etc., etc..

Adventure Hooks & Opportunities (for adventuring above & beyond the scope of the module) - 8 out of 10. Far better than Star Cairns or Crypt of Lyzandred, equal to or slightly better than Doomgrinder.

OK, explanations. It seems as though this adventure was first written for Mystara -- logical, since B2 was a basic D&D adventure, and the basic D&D world became Mystara. This would explain the bhut (a monster), the D'Amberville, and the inclusion of Cathos City (which is purportedly a location in/on Mystara). Conversion to the World of Greyhawk was unquestionably haphazard and poorly done. I'm not sure if this is originally an editing failure or authorial failure, but it certainly should've been
caught by the editor (Duane Maxwell, if people are curious).

The first section of RttKotB is devoted to the Keep on the Borderlands (actually Kendall Keep). My biggest issue with this section, and the history of the Keep, is that the author seems to have confused the "lordless land" of the Yeomanry with a lawless land. Despite that, this is a great "rest & regroup" area for a party of characters. Every NPC is detailed and named (and unlike other listmembers, I had no problem with the names). Most have some kind of background hook or secret that could lead to further adventures for a party of characters that becomes well acquainted with them.

The second section is a rough overview of the wilderness surrounding the Keep, and a number of encounters a wandering band of PCs could have thereabouts. My main problem with this section is carried over from the original module, and that's the close confines of the "wilderness". Many of the encounters are within a mile and a half of the Keep. Having grown up "in the country", I know from experience that a kid can easily cover a mile and a half just for fun, let alone what a ground a serious hunter or scout could cover. the current scale of the map is 1" = 500 yrds; I think 1" = 1 mile is more realistic.

The encounters are varied in nature and tone. Several are potentially fatal to entire parties, others are exercises in roleplaying (and could result in allies for the PCs). The Shy Tower is particularly...interesting. :-)

Finally, the Caves. They've undergone a number of changes in the 20+ years since the original adventure. I won't go into details, but I do believe the adventure hangs together well. While none (or almost none) of the monsters exist in a vacuum, they aren't particularly inclined to come to each other's aid, either, allowing adventurerers to tackle one cave without involving the rest of them. One of the greatest features of this adventure is Rateliff's detailing of the consequences of a party's actions -- if the creatures of Cave X are wiped out, those of Cave Y move in, splitting their forces and affecting the inhabitants of Cave Z.

This is NOT an adventure the PCs can simply walk into and expect to walk out of. Numerous opportunities exist for the death of one or more party members, but none are unreasonable, and nearly all are avoidable with foresight, planning, and quick reactions. The deadliest encounters are mostly confined to one area, allowing PCs the opportunity to run away.

More later...
:-)
Nell.

Re: FW: Ivid the Undying

2009-12-07T08:45:00.000-08:00

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] FW: Ivid the Undying
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:12:13 -0400
From: The Watcher
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Haile and Fair Greetings All,

Ken writes:
>No No No. Please don't listen to him TSR. I would pay a fortune to
>have the books printed, and the same for the supplements. Yes I like
>the electronic supplements, and they help my game, but I still prefer
>to have the book on my shelf and be able to read it
>with out worrying about the refresh rate on my monitor.

First off, folks, don't lose sight of the fact that I was musing over an effort long expended. I was merely relating in mock exasperation the process I once went through in attempts to see the work to print. It would be marginally naive to think that with all the revision and supplementary materials I managed into the pages of DRAGON, DUNGEON, and to the lists that I should "suddenly" have this idea now, without ever having pursued it. Apart from that, each gamer's views are their own, of course.

>>From Kent:
>> While not every gamer has access to the 'net, I think that MOST do
>(more so every year) And, although I know there are people out there
>who would buy a copy anyhow, I have to say that (speaking strictly for
>myself), you people are just WEIRD. :-)

Fair enough. But let me be the first to break to you that you assumption seems not to be borne out by what information has been available. By comparing the figures of sales (and I don't want to debate the actual figures or how I got them) v. numbers of members on various lists recognized by TSR, there appears to be a quite small segment signed on (a vocal minority, if you will). Certainly, materials are further
disseminated after they are downloaded, but those numbers can only be guessed at -- not even estimated. As it currently stands, the WotC doesn't have evidence to definitively indicate any particular bulk of its consumer base is actively on-line at its doors.

>> Why fork out $40 for a product that is free? Sure, the binding
>might be better (the map of course would be - sorry I didn't do a
>better job - maybe some day I'll do up an Acrobat version), but $40
>for a glued spine and some metallic ink to decorate the
>> borders? I can't see the attraction - it's no more usable (in fact,
>sometimes less so - the upcoming GH modules are listed as "perfect
>bound", which don't look so perfect after you have to nearly crack the
>spine to get them to lay flat).

First of all, the manuscript was not free. Everyone who was involved in it got paid. In fact, it took quite some effort to get the manuscript posted on the TSR site. As well, the product I mused did not contain solely the _Ivid_ manuscript, but additional materials including a "current" update of the region c. 591 CY -- a completely separate work which would eventually be done and distributed at some point, anyway. Think of it as similar to the like of the _Return to..._ series, which includes reproductions of the originals within; only this reproduction will also be properly edited.
Secondly, I find it somewhat short-sighted that one would look upon one's own resources and, upon finding them sufficient, declare the rest may eat cake -- which may be misrepresented here. Kent makes an excellent case for why he should not purchase such a compilation, citing spartan preferences. But, I don't think he means to say that because of any personal indifference to bindings and graphic elements, the art department of gaming companies should be out of work.
Lastly, in his own reverse-psychology way, Kent makes yet another excellent point in that most folks don't know how to actually own/use books. As we all know (we all know, right?), one is not supposed to "crack" the spine of a perfect-bound book as is typical of stitch bindery. What we all know is that with this kind of binding, one should place a straight-edge (a ruler is a good tool) along the gripper line of the spine and fold back the cover and a number of pages at a time along
this line; the process repeated on the other cover, in the reverse direction. This "breaks in" the book properly and preserves the binding. But, I figure everyone already knows this, so forgive me for stating the obvious.

>> I'd much encourage TSR go in the OTHER direction - release their
>supplements and modules electronically - cheaper, faster, and
>customizable to my campaign- I can cut, paste and print up tidbits as
>player information (and stop yanking the books out of the
>> hands of some of my nosier players).

This is a good idea. For those who do not wish to pay the exceptional costs of hard copies -- particularly our oft-out-of-mind brethren beyond the US, where cost are *significantly* higher (!) -- there should be the option of visiting the TSR-online site and purchasing a (possibly) reduced cost electronic copy (sans extraneous graphical elements). This way, those who don't care for the "needless" parts or those where no stores seem ever to have the products have a viable option. For those in Canada and beyond, it's merely a question of exchange rates on the US$ (versus foreign production or distribution, tariffs, etc.).
Of course, this leaves out those who well have the money but prefer not to possess credit cards (like myself). This would include the youthful gamer the industry desires to restore to the ranks of players, but this are reasons enough (along with the computer issues: hardware and access costs, user-illiteracy, etc.), certainly not only the maps, for the hard copy to survive for now.

Soft Winter and Sweet Flowers,
Watcher

P.S.: Oh, and one more thing. I just took some quotes today on perfect200 +/- pages of 8.5 X 11 sheet in runs under 50 copies. The "median" quote was $150 for set-up and $1.50 per copy bound. Imagine how little per copy it is in runs of thousands.

DMD: The Dragons Rest [Pocket Guide to Verbobonc]

2009-12-07T08:42:00.000-08:00

Date sent: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:56:25 -0400
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Noel Graham
Subject: [GREYTALK] DMD: The Dragons Rest [Pocket Guide to Verbobonc]
Originally to: greyhawk@MPGN.COM
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

----Begin forwarded message -----
From: Vision.at.Work
Subject: Greyhawk's Inns, Taverns, and Shops

As always, this looks a might better dressed up in the bells and whistles of WordPerfect 7.0. I've also had to insert the footnotes [ ] near the text in order for them to translate. “Cariel” is, of course, Cariel Mansharn of the GH MTU, the man responsible for developing the Pocket Guides (as you know from my longbill post); “Sparius Ersitan” is one of Cariel's trusted itinerant merchants whose travels make him quite knowledgeable concerning Verbobonc.
Incidentally, the Yeoman Knight, Sir Bastromel, is NOT a member of a Yeomanry order of knighthood (as I didn't intend they have any), but rather an indication of his espoused origins.

Water/Noel

The Dragons Rest
Tavern/Inn

This well-known innhouse stands a brisk walk up from the Bailey Gate. Some of you know it as the Inn of the Sleeping Dragon or Green Meadows Inn, but be assured it's still a place of familiar faces, the lettering now reunited with the signboard.
It's easy to find so locals, who well make up half the taproom business, often meet with travelers here or each other[1]. The draconic tokens which are the inn's heritage draw as many gawkers as earnest guests. On some nights it's difficult to be heard the length of your table and almost impossible to leave it, although overly roisterous patrons are encourages to go elsewhere.

[1]Sparius Ersitan: Nearly any Gent'lman of the Watch this side of the Lords District can direct ye there if ye've trouble finding it.

What to Expect
The Rest is built from creeper-sieged quarry stone and timber with distinctive decklo woodwork: portals, wingswept shutters, scaled shinglry, and the like. Rounded lamps with frosted glaziery are mounted abreast the signboard and entry, whose hinge and band work are vaguely claw-shaped works of aged brass. A fieldstone wall along the inn's rears encloses the Damaris family's semi-private garden.
Inside, lighting is supplied by three candle wheels suspended from the pleasantly high rafters. A large stone hearth a perfect backdrop for tale tellings and minstrels stands opposite the counter (not a bar!). Perched high above the mantle, twinned dragon ribs almost from over an empty hanger that once cradled the mighty battleaxe[2] charged with their capture, long gone.
Alas, the bone-handled tableware and flagons are far between too, so don't come expecting to toss back ales from a hollowed dragon tooth. No doubt a few pieces proved the tales of less valourous men or fueled the magicks of arch-sorcerers. The remainder are now served up so infrequently that curious attentions make them less likely to regrow legs and wander off unseen.

[2][For more information on Toblin's axe, see Appendix II of this guide]

The host, Senan Demaris, is a tall and amicable enough presence in the taproom, unless he's called upon to be otherwise. Patrons have pointed out a collection of tapping mallets he keeps close to hand and remark at his aim, should trouble brew anywhere in the crowd. Take heed those who'd remark too loudly or too often on the similarity to a certain less reputable locale of the Free City[3].

[3]Cariel: While presenting herein, it seems the subject of Senan's familiar surname is rarely delved. Though, given his skill at negotiation and the jawset scowl he received, Sparus could offer only a hasty “M'haps ye should ask of Ricard.” In its stead, he was able to share a curious observation.
Patrons of suspicious airs tend to receive a piece of dragon ware with their drink or meal. Whether those who attempt to strike up conversations do so at Senan's behest, Sparys couldn't say, but the reactions are often telling.

His charming wife, Jessra, oversees the kitchens and the results are more than palatable. Scales branded into fare lists have been affixed to walls about the taproom. A copy has been rendered herein to show its eccentricities. Meals are generously portioned and can be taken there or carried up nearby stairs to lodgings above, as can complimentary pitchers of brandymint water.
Sauces available range from a spicing of crushed peppercorn and herb left to roast in the catch pan and ladled over afore serving to a broth of crushed Keoish firefingers. The latter is best reserved for the strong of constitution.
Together, the proprietors direct a staff of three kitchenfolk, six innhands (who also service the taproom), and two ostlers. This includes their youthful son, Arik, and fostered daughter, Tresea.

The Dragons Platter[4]

For the Feast

Roast Game (basted with spiced wine broth):
Hare 6 cp
Hen 4 cp
Fine Fowl (when available) 9 cp
Lances
(your meat and garden choices) 1 sp
Venison (slow simmered in garlic red stock) 2 sp
Roast chops (done to taste):
Mutton (with our crème sauce) 2 sp
Dragon (aged and seasoned) 6 sp
Lairs, Great and Small
Meat and Garden 4 cp 8 cp
Liver and Kidney 3 cp 5 cp
gravyed mild or with piper sauce
Garden and Grains
Three of: hand loaf, greens, tubers, cheese, and sauces for the feast order two-fold as a feast!) 5 cp
Yarpick Loaf 6 cp
Shielf Loaf 8 cp

By Your Command

Soup (garden broth) 2 cp
Soup (meat and garden) 4 cp
Whitebroth Stew
(spiced fish and garden) 3 cp
Grilled Fish and Other Freshwater Fare (from the Velverdyva)
3-10 cp
Kettle Roast (meat, leaks, greenstalks, and red tubers) 7 cp
Eggs, Pan-Freyed (or as you like)
Hen 2 cp
Fine Fowl 5 cp
For the Trail (most items packed cold in decklo leaves) 2 cp

For Merryment
By the Flagon or Globeglass, Also By the Bottle or Hang Keg

Ale (common) 3 cp 12 cp
Stout 7 cp 3 sp
Toblin's Taste 4 cp --
Mead 6 cp 25 cp
Wine & Hard Cyder 1 sp 4 sp
Silaurey 8 cp 3 sp
Gauglathiir 3 gp 21 gp
Brandy (by the quaff):
Galda-fruit 3 sp 2 gp
Keoish 8 sp 8 gp
Ulek Elixir 5 gp 27 gp
Raritys & Exotics 1 gp and up
Sweet Cyder 2 cp 1 sp

[4]Fine fowl is, as ye must know, goose, duck, grouse, quail, or other game bird. The smaller one come spitted in pairs, but can be had of half the cost fer one. Lances are small pikes impaled as ye like, caught in wyrm's breath, to tell, and eaten asizzle. An' while good turn on the inn's fame, to truth a dragon chop means more a maw-size cut of steer – us'aly. Dragon-kin are known to the nearby wilderlands, after all.
Small lairs are pies sized to fit in a full grasp, with the great'ns bein' full-grown pies. Shield Loaf is freyed and battled in frothe wedges of loaf grilled 'til crisp and moist within. Try it at dawnfeast with crème butter and olven sweet sauce.
Toblin's Taste is a bitten but tasty ale p'culiar fer its ruddish cast, guarded recipe, and the practice of serving it fresh from the cold cellar. Mind ye, locals call it Redhand and mark outlanders by that. Of wines there's that olven wintagreen, Greyhawk's cinnamoned Silaurey, and of times Furyondian apple wine, Voll Shamarit, and more. Ask when ye get there.
A quaff is what we'd call a gill. A globeglass is likened to a goblet without the stem. Exotics is, m'haps, Samberra or that baklunish brewed kaffet.

Charges have increased only slightly with the past few moons. A cozy room with twinned beds, wash basin, low table, and stout lock[5] is 7 sp from one suncrest to the next. Each of two “master rooms” adds a small hearth, comfortable chairs, locking trunk, and bathing chamber use – a real luxury for the road weary (and 15 cp for others). These cost 12 sp/day, though both charges vary according to business, if stays at length are arranged, and the like.

[5]Sparus: Afore ye scoff, the Rest may look of just a piled stone, but test yer eye. Thick walls are bane to thieves and spell-throwers, and to here it, the cover-all moss counts to proof ag'inst visits from the ethers. Aye, the Rest offers up safety enough fer its coin.

Fear not a night of tossing due to noise from below. The floors have been cleverly rendered proof against such nuisance. Extra coverlets or bed warming (3 cp) are also available for colder nights.
Bunk space in a common room is 1 sheridan/night and includes a flagon of ale or soup and a handloaf of (day old) bread on the dawnsbreak. Lastly, stall fees are 1 sheridan/day per steed. A green coiled wyrm sigil has long been used to mark linens, furnishings, and oddments against pilferage. For the most recent seasons of visitors, however, this seems only to have increased their value as keepsakes. To curb losses, the sigil-branded platters and hand size paste-wood scales[6] are being offered for purchase at 3 sheridans and 5 (copper) commons, respectively.

[6]The scales bring coin as trinkets and pass on the Rest's fame in the bargain. In Baranford, whole sets were made to talis decks of paint'n their backsides.

Legends & Lore
There's much to tell here. The Rest was constructed on the whim of the Yeomen mercenary, Toblin “Redhand”, after a successful season of dragon hunting in the Gnarley Wood. As the tale goes, Toblin, once known as “Axehand” for his favored weapon, and a band of compatriots took up the hunt and, though reduced in numbers, emerged victorious a sennight later.
Though doubters have tried to cast Toblin's tales as tall indeed, it's hard to argue with proof. Several items, the scales and hide-bound faldstools for starters, have been authenticated through the years by a variety of scholars. It's also clear he wanted for little for the remainder of his days, lending some to conclude Toblin made a secret cache of the dragon's horde.
Once every few seasons he'd make a foray into those forests, taking a different course each time. Noone ever claimed knowledge of his destination and when questioned, he'd only giver a wide grin and say his children would profit from his ventures.
Fortune seekers far afield still flock to the Rest with each new rumor of a lost map[7]. The stay of a Yeoman knight, one Sir Bastromel, a few seasons back started tongues wagging anew. Was he, as some thought, retained as part of a recovery party or the heirs of Toblin's surviving partner, come for his share[8]? Whatever the case, Senan appears disinterested, but is known to have short shrift with gossip-mongers (or mongrels, as he puts it) and those who'd press him on such points.

[7]Senan: Don't you believe any of this. The Freeholders were set upon by a green alright, but it was by mercy of the gods he survived. The attack left him with lasting red splotches and a chronic cough from the beast's fell breath. He built the inn from coin of selling the hide and such. Look to his name, man, his days as a freesword were over!
There's no map nor treasure, though I'm sure he looked ever for it. His profits come from good business sense, tall tales and rumors together.

[8]Sparus: The last tale's gained the widest hold, since the knight report'ly regaled lis'ners with stories, first of being set upon in the Gnarleys by a green and next a fellow trav'ler. Some say this was done to test Damaris' reaction.
That Sir Bastromel awoke to thieves few nights later and was forced to draw steel fer his life...was judged a hap of bad fortune. Now, these same sources crook finger at past tries to name changes as proof the inn had something to hide—and Damaris hadn't found it yet!

Summer will see the expansion of the Rest. Many have wondered aloud at whether this could be from a new-found source of wealth or if the fell of hammer blows will reveal what was once thought lost.

Appendix I:
Folk of Verbobonc
JESSRA DAMARIS (CG hf P0; DEX 14, WIS 13, CHA 13). Brown-flecked bright blue eyes and a slim build mark her ancestry to Toblin and his half-elven lady companion. Jessra is patient (lending calm to Senan), caring, but not easily fooled. Her quiet reverence of Hanali Celanil seems reflected in the vitality of her gardens and family. One of a collection of dragon bone figurines is of the Power, to which she makes offerings of fresh-made potpourri.

SENAN DAMARIS (NG hm F3; DEX 16, CHA 12). Senan is 6', 200 lbs. Or so, and patronly for his 41 winters; has brown eyes, hair, and thick sidebars, the latter two now streaking with gray. He's a thoughtful and pragmatic man whose obvious concerns are his family and the prosperity of the Rest. Of course, if beset, his temper is quick and hot (and +2 to hit with mallets in the taproom), the result of recurring incidents connected with the inn's fame.

TRESEA is a quick-witted lass of some sixteen winters with short-bobbed sandy hair. From her years prior to the Damaris family she learned to tread softly and conceal her presence. Tresea's since stolen a lesson or two at the blade, from which it's clear there's warrior spirit in her. She's also heard her share of tales while working the taproom and is slowly growing infatuated with the wandering life.

Appendix II:
Pars Arcanum

Magical Items
Toblin's Axe
While this battleaxe predates Toblin, its origins and true name have been lost. The axe bears a +1 enchantment, emits a flickering light (equal to torchlight) which seems to arc like heat lightning throught the head when so willed, and can discharge a 6d6 lightning bolt upon utterance of an unknown command word, twice per month. Its present whereabouts is uncertain, but one story puts it in the possession of a Pomarj orog chieftain.
----End forwarded message-----

Re: Infamy of Iuz (was 20 most well - known deities.)

2009-11-17T10:25:00.000-08:00

Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 14:57:45 -0800
From: Marc Tizoc Gonzalez
Subject: Re: Infamy of Iuz (was 20 most well - known deities.)

MM invited:
> I would actually like my argument refuted here. Please reason well

IMC, the peasants of and low-level PCs in northwestern Furyondy referred to the leader of Iuz as the Old One. For the peasants, this being had ruled the lands beyond the Whyestil since before their grandparents' youth. For the PCs, this was the name that they were taught. Iuz was the name of the land that the Old One ruled. After a couple of levels, when a fool-hardy set of the PCs attempted to infiltrate the armies massing across the Veng river (in early 583 CY), then they learned from a particularly vicious man that he was a priest of the _god_, Iuz the Old. The PCs did _not_ know that Iuz was the Old One or a god before they listened to that priest's diatribe. IMO, Such specificity of information represents special knowledge.

Before the Invasion of Iuz, most Furyondians, Rovers of the Barrens, Shield Landers, or Wolf Nomads had heard that something named the Old One had once ruled the land called bounded by Whyestil Lake and the Howling Hills. Yet even by 576 CY, the fact that this Old One was the demonic "god" Iuz was _not_ popular knowledge. (Some folk tales from the beginning of the sixth Common century may have even included both characters in the same story.) It took the efforts of heroes in the service of the Wise to learn this secret, and the knowledge that Iuz was a cambion of Grazz'zt (sp?) and the witch-queen Igwiilv was known by even fewer people, such as the Circle of Eight or the individuals responsible for the sundering of the Old One's
imprisonment. We should remember that Iuz was only freed in 570 CY, so even by the eve of the GH Wars (582 CY), there are only a dozen years for the infamy of Iuz to be spread. The Flanaess lacks the Internet!

Of course, some people in the CoG learned about the power and identity of Iuz just before the war due to the activity of his Spurned Cult, but even in the Gem of the Flanaess, this knowledge is not known by every last beggar, bard, or apprentice.

The post-war situation is drastically different. At every Godsday sermon the churches of Heironeous, Mayaheine, St. Cuthbert, and Trithereon harangue against that powerful demonic despot of the north, Iuz. These declamations are especially intense just before (and during) the Great Northern Crusade. This is partially due to the subtle influence (strategy) of the churches of Rao and Delleb (or the Church of Voll), which decided that the public naming of Iuz (the Old) as a powerful demon was important to limit his power and the hysterical fear that his name could cause.

Similarly, the shamans of the Rovers or Wolf Nomads have named Iuz a powerful demon, one of a long line of bestial gods that dominate the legends of the north (a la Rip Van Wormer's Madlander gods). Of course, if we obey canon, then the remnant of Rovers may well believe that Iuz represents their teleology.

In the Empire of Iuz, the clergy have constantly proselytized the power of their god. Thus by 591 CY even on the eastern periphery of the empire, in the Bandit Kingdoms or occupied Tenha, almost everyone has repeatedly heard that Iuz the Old is a demon-god walking the Flanaess and seated at his throne in Dorakaa and seen demonstrations of the god's brutal power.

His priests have had at least twenty-one years since his freedom to establish their churches and cults. I say "at least" because I wonder whether there were priests devoted to Iuz during his imprisonment, such as High Priests Patch or Althea. When did he become a true demi-god? Was the faith of some cult partially responsible for his apotheosis? Did their sacrifices penetrate the demon-dreams of the Old One's imprisonment?

Marc Tizoc

RE: Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

2009-11-17T10:18:00.000-08:00

RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)Friday, November 13, 2009 2:03 PM
From: "CJ MacLean" Add sender to Contacts
To: "'greytalk'"

Here it is pg.70 Greyhawk Gem of the Flanaess

" But the bards serve a serious role as well, particularly in chronicling the day-to day life, and the grander historical march, of the Free City and its people."

I win!

CJ

From: kruch7@cox.net [mailto:kruch7@cox.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:49 AM
To: greytalk
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

What do you mean previously written, I see nothing previously written that says Greyhawk wouldn't have a new paper, and I know of no evidence of an army of bards roaming the city either as for town criers we do know they are in the city. If there is a reference some where that states there no possibility of a news sheet with all the scribes they have and magic users I will believe you. have to reread my gord the rogue books and see if there is a reference in them

Ken
Gygax is to Gaming What Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil then you
WWBYD What would Brigham Young do

Re: "Of Iuz and the Northern Reaches"

2009-11-16T09:15:00.000-08:00

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] "Of Iuz and the Northern Reaches"
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:04:40 EDT
From: "Gary L. Holian"
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

>On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Gary R Welsh wrote:
>
>> I tend to agree that a blunder was made with regards to Iuz and the date of his rise....though it was an easy one to make since it didn't appear to contradict any other historical facts. Clearly
>> the year 479 CY was meant to be the date in which he expanded his empire, not the year he came onto the scene in the first place.
>
>Yep. That's what I thought too. And of your scenarios for the dating of Iuz' realm, I think only (1) is possible. According to S4, Iggwilv began her campaign of conquest "nearly a century ago," and subjugated the Marches of Perrenland for a decade (S4, p. 2). That would mean she
>disappeared at 486 at the absolute earliest -- probably later -- in any case after 479. That rules out scenario (2).

Ah, well that depends on numerous assumptions which are not clear cut:
1) The dating of the module S4
2) The dating of the WoG Guide (83)
3) The vagaries of history, and terms such as "nearly a century".

A common misconception about the booklets of the 83 boxed set is that their contents are generally dated to the year 576 CY, the year they were completed by the Savant-Sage in the Free City of Greyhawk. However, its apparent that they are only current to the year 573 CY...and while the sage completed the seven volume set 3 years later, the material is not current to that date, but only to the year of the disappearance of the Prince of Furyondy and the emergence of the Scarlet Brotherhood.
This is not uncommon in histories, where there is a lag between what is current and when it is published.

S4 could have been set anytime in the 570's, realistically speaking, though we know it must have predated the events in Isle of the Ape which are generally dated somewhere between 576-579. Using all of this leeway, its possible to contruct a history whereby Iggwilv's empire fell and Iuz emerged in the north nearly simultaneously. However, I agree that scenario 1) is far more likely since we know that Iggwilv's magic was instrumental in Iuz's rise. It was probably the intention of Iggwilv and Iuz to expand their realm, and with the witch's magic, the cambion emerged from the Howling Hills a force and took Dorakaa. Apparently, they had some falling out and Graz'zt was loosed, forcing Iggwilv into a battle which reduced her powers dramatically, banished the Demon Lord for a century, and ended her
realm.

>> I think it is pretty obvious that his name is due in no small part to his decrepit
>> appearance whilst
Of course, people might call him old because he *looks* old. But I think that he really *is* old -- ancient even. I gave the reasons in an earlier post (i.e. the quotes from the Guide and AoE which clearly establish Iuz as "centuries old").

Well, we don't know how old...but we do know that he looks old, ancient even. I sympathize with your desire to restore Iuz to his original depiction, but I think if we're going to be Monatic* about things, we're stuck with the fact that he didn't rule in the north for centuries, whatever his true age...and quotes from the guide notwithstanding (the puffery of an old sage. ;-) Clearly, it was not known why Iuz pulled back in 505 CY and the fact that the land was ruled in his name by a proto-Bonehart is not distinguishable, his evil festered (indeed his Spurned Cult received power and spread across the Flanaess over the intervening decades.) There only appeared to be an ebb in the expansion of his empire, which resumed anew when the master was back in residence. To assert he only ruled 32 years would be a quibble without teeth, since his status wouldn't have been commonly known...roads were still being paved in skulls apace.

*Monaism asserts the primacy of canon and exhorts its practioners to find the most consistent and ingenious method to satisfy all sources. Not to be coonfused with "Hep Monatics", sufferers of a rare jungle disease involving burrowing insects.

-GLH

Re: Of Iuz and [Castle Greyhawk]

2009-11-16T09:12:00.000-08:00

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Of Iuz and [Castle Greyhawk]
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:57:31 -0700
From: Chris Anderson
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

Hmmm... I envision them differently. To me, the Soul Husks are a method of drawing off power from a set of individuals that is used to elevate Iuz to Lesser God status. Something like a set of batteries that super-charges him.

I also have thought about the connection between what Zagyg did, and the Soul Husks. It strikes me that Iuz learned, through personal experience in Castle Greyhawk, a method of short-circuiting the usual "gain worshippers and power" method of ascending from demi-god to Lesser God.

I've decided that Zagyg used the demi-gods as "filters" for power that he poured into them from elsewhere, and that without those filters, his mortal body would have been destroyed in his attempt to gain demi-god status. With the filters, he was able to power up safely. Acting as "filters" also powered up many of the 9 demi-gods to lesser god status.

Having said that, I am divided on whether or not Iuz has to replace his batteries periodically (implying a continuous feed of power from the Husks, which has a further implication of gradual decay if they are not replaced regularly), or whether the initial magic which powered him is now embedded within him. I sort of like the idea of him having to guard the Soul Husks because if they were "disturbed" his stolen power would flow back into them. As I've said, I'm torn.

IMC, I've left rumors of powerful individuals disappearing from time to time. Just in case I go that way.

--
Chris Anderson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Casper [mailto:scvolstagg@NETSCAPE.NET]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 12:33 PM
> To: GREYTALK@mitvma.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Of Iuz and [Castle Greyhawk]
>
>
> Hi again!
>
> Eric Van wrote:
> >While I already knew this part, have you figured out how this translates to the secret of the Soul Husks Caverns in Iuz the Evil?
>
> Hmm...maybe you should talk to Noel "Worships Sargent" Graham about that. I don't own half of Carl Sargent's material for GREYHAWK, and take the other half with a
> spoonful of salt. I would guess, however, that the Soul Husk is an "anchor" that connects the half-demon Iuz to the Prime Material Plane so Dispel Evil and the like
> won't work on him. I don't think it has to do with his ascension to godhood.
>
> >Also, do you use all the rules for demigods found in Legends and Lore for Iuz?
>
> The '83 boxed set gave demi-gods even more special abilities than Deities & Demigods did. I don't see why Iuz wouldn't get them all.
>
> Scott "Volstagg" Casper
>
> Yak-Men think soul husks taste like chicken...

DMD: Witchfire stones

2009-11-16T09:06:00.000-08:00

Date sent: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:29:22 -0700
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Chris Anderson
Subject: [GREYTALK] DMD: Witchfire stones
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Since I've seen some posts on the Ghost Tower of Iverness, I thought that I would post my material on the “witchfire stones”. These are a set of artifacts which I designed that include the Soul Gem. It was my intent to make the Soul Gem part of a group of artifacts, rather than existing by itself.

In my campaign, the party managed to recover three of these gems before internal tensions (caused by the gems) tore them apart. These were created early in my career as a DM, so you'll notice that they are a bit unpolished... :-)

My standard disclaimer:

I specifically forbid the WoGFC, or any of its members, to use this material in any of their publications. The rest of you are free to use it in any manner that you see fit, as long as you maintain a reference to the author.

The Witchfire Stones

The Witchfire Stones were first created during the time of the Suloise Empire. At least five of the seven known stones were enchanted during that time. Most accounts agree that many wizards were involved in their creation and design, although at least two were created after the Rain of Colorless Fire by Galap-Dreidel and Vecna. It is unknown whether they independently reinvented the concept, worked from written descriptions, or had a stone to copy.

After the Rain of Colorless Fire, the stones were lost and nearly forgotten. Certain tomes mention them in passing, so it is possible that they resurfaced during the long years following the fall of the Suloise Empire. There are rumors that the Soul Gem has resurfaced recently in the County of Urnst, but this has not been proven.

Common Powers

The Witchfire Stones all have the same common properties:

User gains 25% magic resistance while the stone is on their person
Two stones, acting in concert, can create a permanent “gate” between them
User can use any of the stone's powers through a crystal ball
User becomes more and more protective f the item (see DMG for details)

Each stone has an alignment, and will attempt to change the users alignment to match. This is determined by checking the stone's ego against that of the players, just as an intelligent sword. Each failed check will move the players alignment one step closer to that of the stone.

In addition, all of them can be affected by the following:

Any stone can be rendered inactive for 1-4 weeks by a successful Dispel Magic vs. 25th level magic. During this time, they cannot be used.

All powers operate at 25th level unless otherwise noted.

The Hearth Stone (Red)

Location: Depths of the Nyr Dyv (in Vecna's castle)
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Ego: 22

This pulsating fiery red gem is uncut, and exceedingly beautiful. It is the size of a large mans fist. It's radiance extends 30' at all times.

It's powers are:
[insert missing page]
User does not age
Cast a Timestop which lasts 2 rounds 1/day
Cast a Temporal Stasis 1/week
Charm (-4 on saving throws) at will

Those who spend time in the radiance of the gem, who are not the user, will age 10 times as quickly. Any magic item which slows or erases aging will be destroyed if taken into the radiance of the gem (potions of longevity, etc.) Any effect which induces aging (a ghost, for example) will have 10 times the effectiveness.

The Heartstone can only be destroyed by throwing it into the flames of an arising Phoenix.

The Twister (Green)
---

Location: The Suloise City in the Suss Forest
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Ego: 20

This cut, glowing, green gem is about one foot across by two feet long. It is cut in the fashion of a rectangular, beveled, plate. It’s powers are:

Polymorph Self at will
Dispel Magic at will
Polymorph Others 3/day
Shape Change 1/day

All those inimical to the jewel must save vs magic each round spent in its radiance or be inflicted with with a random lycanthropy. Is someone already infected with lycanthropy fails their saving throw, then they fall under the command of the user of the jewel for 1-3 days.

The jewel may only be destroyed by being bathed in the life blood of a *willing* sacrifice.

Mindfire Gem (Amber)
Location: Somewhere in the Sea of Dust
Alignment: Neutral Good
Ego: 25

This stone is an uncut gem about 2” in diameter which glows with a restful amber light. The last records of it indicate that it was set into the pommel of a magical bastard sword. It's powers are:

The stone confers psionics (150 ps) to any who claim it, along with two major, and four minor disciplines. If the bearer already has psionics it adds 150 to their current strength and gives an extra major and minor discipline. All psionics are performed at a level of mastery 4 levels higher than normal (ie if someone who did not have psionics previously claims this gem, they will be granted psionics at 1st level. While using the gem, they will perform all psionics at 5th level. Should they not be in possession of the gem, their psionics will revert back to 1st level)

The Mindfire Gem may only be destroyed by casting it into the River Lethe.

The SeaStone (Blue)

Location: The Hold of the Sea Princes
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Ego: 24

This glowing blue sphere is about 6” in diameter. It is uncut and unusually heavy – at least 50-60 pounds. It's current owner has set it into the center of a heavy table so that the upper half of it extends above the surface of the table. It's powers are:

No creature of the sea may harm the bearer
Water Breathing, on command, which lasts for 1 week
Weather Summoning 3/day
Charm Sea Creature (-4 to saving throw) 1/turn
Calms the sea on command in a one mile radius

Those who spend much time in the glow of the stone will gradually be changed into a deathless merman. Once the change is complete, the merman will fall under the command of the owner of the stone. Once the owner changes, he/she will immediately take the stone and disappear into the nearest ocean, there to hide and guard the stone.

It can only be destroyed by casting it into the Elemental Plane of Fire.

The BaneStone (Yellow)

Location: Somewhere in the Great Kingdom
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Ego: 20

This stone is about 3” across, and is uncut. It glows with a soft yellow light, which prickles on the skin. Ancient records are unclear, but it was apparently set into something, possibly a necklace or the end of a staff. It's powers are:

Bestow Curse at will
Know Alignment
Cause Serious Wounds on touch
Finger of Death 1/day
“Decree” 1/year

All who are bathed in it's rays cannot be healed by any magical means. All wounds caused in its presence cannot be healed by magic, and heal at the rate of 1hp per week. The user is subject to “withering” (as a staff of withering, on a random extremity) each time the “Decree” is used. The BaneStone can only be destroyed by the direct touch of Pelor.

(DM's Note: A “Decree” is an 11th level spell similar to a wish, but of more powerful nature. This is a spell developed by the Suloise, that can only be used by a Suloise Mage of Power).

Re: Greyhawk Grumbler

2009-11-16T09:03:00.001-08:00

Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler
Monday, November 16, 2009 10:37 AM
From: "Chris Anderson"
To: "Mark Carscadden" Cc: "greytalk"

Just so we're clear... the first printing presses were simply weights pressing wood block type down onto paper. I think that's well within Greyhawk's technical base.

Later on, the screw was introduced... so that you could screw a flat plate down against the woodblock, against the paper.

-- Chris

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Mark Carscadden wrote:

I think a printing press is something that would be a better fit in the FR setting, IMO. Gygax would have certainly at least briefly mentioned something as significant as a printing press if it existed in his setting. But as always, that's the way it will be in MY Greyhawk campaign...
----- Original Message -----
From: Wade Nolen
To: 'greytalk'
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Insisting that the print run of the Grumbler is more than the population of the Free City of Greyhawk itself is the utmost sheer folly.

And beyond that … the “single guy” is doing the same thing in CoGH … no one said that these things are everywhere. No one said that there are more than just the Grumbler (although we know that there are two.) This is a localized thing, specific to Greyhawk City, and what’s more, there’s nothing (of which I am aware, other than the author’s post-script here) that it’s not wood-block printing, or something other than the “mechanized” stuff that you insist on. There were printing presses long before Industrialization or the Mechanized era.

Wade K. Nolen
aka "Icarus "

I'm off to gallivant among the clouds!
" ... and he did fly, and he was seen on the wings of the wind."

From: CJ MacLean [mailto:icar@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:57 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I'm not talking about a single guy with bits of clay producing 20 copies of something. I am talking about the level of mechanization society has to have for a press run of 5000-30,000 (or more).

From: Vest III, Robert W [mailto:rvest@ius.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:15 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

There is actually a canonical precedent for having printing presses in the Flanaess. See the Age of Worms backdrop article on Alhaster (Dungeon 131), which mentions an underground broadsheet in Alhaster called The Sinchaser Report.

Re: "Of Iuz and the Northern Reaches" (HSNR)

2009-11-14T08:52:00.000-08:00

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] "Of Iuz and the Northern Reaches" (HSNR)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:28:07 -0400
From: Stéphane Tanguay
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Hi all !

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Gary L. Holian

What does (HSNR) stand for ?

>Two notable exceptions, are the portions which later came together as the cantons of Perrenland (in 400 CY), and the Archbarony of Blackmoor (which apparently was so cut-off from the rest of the
>Flanaess that when the revolutions sundered the Great Kingdom, it was largely forgotten.) Fred Weining (Psychlops) has an interesting aside in his Blackmoor piece in the Oerth Journal which comments how
>the land eventually disappeared from imperial maps.

Is it from Psychlops's work that you got the info that put Blackmoor under Dyvers "supervision" at a time or is there a canon source somewhere that I've missed? Others (Gary R. Welsh) have the Archbarony at odds with Iuz.

(snip)

>Remember that what is considered the Horned Society now, was simply a part of the loose collection of largely flannish bandit realms we now refer to as the Bandit Kingdoms, indistinguishable from the
>rest. Iuz swept threw those bandit kingdoms between the Veng and Ritensa (sometime between 479 and 505 CY) taking Molag (where the Heirarchs picked up the pieces during his absence.)

It is the second or third time that I see mentions of this invasion of the HS by Iuz at some point in the past but again, I can't find the canon source for this.

I always tought the Horned Society was a loose collection of largely humanoid territories that was organized by some bandits lords (Hierarchs) only after Iuz disappearance.

>1) Iuz made his move during his mother's reign to the southwest. This could have been part of a plan to strike in two parts of the "Northern Reaches", then unify the realm by decimating
> the Highfolk between them while Furyondy was distracted by events in the south. He would have had direct assisstance from her in pulling off his plan, which fell through when Graz'zt
> was loosed and he was on his own. Apparently, he also had some falling out with Iggwilv.

I would go with this option. It would be consistent with what can be found in Rot8. I kind of like seing Iuz and his mother "help" each other. I now just have to find a reason why Iuz appeared to have been adopted as an infant by a flan chieftain while there is many signs he should be older at that time (479 CY). Just a disguise ? Trying to hide his demonic features ? Was it a way to keep an eye on his lands while being away helping mom ?

For myself, I'd like to have Iuz being born around 213 CY, adventuring here and there for a while (notably in the Thillorian peninsula), acquiring some of his knowledge as a cleric and assassin (thanks to Gary R. Welsh for most of these ideas) then come back around Whyestyl Lake and start to build his own fief (circa 300 CY). For years, he battle against the northern nomads and other minor desposts, both Flans and Oeridians. Not able to accomplish much, he renew contact with his mother and agree to leave his fief for a while (circa 470 CY), to make himself forgotten. He help his mother in her research. In 475 CY, Iggwilv have him disguise his demonic features as an infant and be adopted by his "father". He is able to observe his future opponents while waiting for his mother to acquire sufficient powers to help him. This happens in 479 CY. Iuz's "father" is then put to death and Iuz reveal itself, with a lot of new powers.

Here's a rough timeline, based on many sources amongst which Gary R. Welsh and Paul Stormberg post have played an important role in shaping my ideas. I hae incorporated Drelzna and Graz'zt into it, as they are somewhat indissociable:

213 Iuz is born. Age of Great Sorrows begin.
230 Iuz start his adventuring career
300 Iuz start to build his own fief around the Howling Hills
460 Iggwilv consorts with several Perrenland Flan chieftans
462 Iggwilv found the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth
465 Drelnza is born
466 Graz'zt is captured by Iggwilv
467 Iggwilv renew contact with her son and begin concocting a plan to conquer the Northen Reaches
470 Iuz "disappear" from his fief.
475 Iuz, disguised as an infant, is adopted by a Flan chieftain of the Howling Hills
479 Iuz's "father" died. With help from Iggwilv's magic, Iuz's might grow. Perrenland and Furyondy attention's are turned toward Iuz, failing to see Iggwilv preparations.
480 Iggwilv embark on her conquest of Perrenland. Drelnza serves as General of Iggwilv's forces.
481 Perrenland is conquered
491 Graz'zt tricks Drenlza into freeing him. In the ensuing battle, Drelnza is killed, Graz'zt is forced to flee to the Abyss for a century and Iggwilv is stricken. The empire of Iggwilv collapse. With her remaining power she hide her treasures in the Lost caverns. Drenlza is interred with these and Iggwilv, who had both pity and hatred for her, kept her from both death and life.

Also note:
591 Graz'zt is free to leave the Abyss

I really like Gary R. Welsh's suggestion of having Iuz be reared and adventuring in the northen barrens. It does explain how he acquire a lot of his knowledge, how later he was able to put up this Vatun construction, how he acquire his soul husks, etc. It also give us opportunities to have him meet with some others luminaries of Greyhawk. Such a background for Iuz seem quite greyhawkish to me.

>but by his disappearnce in 505 CY, he was already being treated as a god by his followers.

Did he ? I tought he became a demi-god while being kept captive under Greyhawk Castle (although how can this be possibly happening is beyond me).

Regards

Stéphane Tanguay
stanguay@francomm.com

Re: The Isles of Woe

2009-11-14T08:48:00.000-08:00

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] The Isles of Woe
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:35:46 -0400
From: "d.k. tetreault"
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

On Mon, 21 Jun 1999, Scott Casper wrote:

> Denis "Maldin" Treteault wrote us a lovely story about the Isles of Woe this morning.

Why, thank you. ;-)

> It is quite clear that both the Isles,

For those not on the "other" GH list, my post was in reply to a query for information on the subject from Sir Clarence, and not spontaneous.

> and Keldreth's safety, are important to him.

Not really. ;-) I just used Roger's mention of Keldreth in GH:TAB as a way to poke a little fun at all the flamewars that Kel seems to be invariably embroiled in. ;-)

> Why does it necessarily follow that Yagrax couldn't have constructed something that led to the destruction of his kingdom? This seems entirely consistent with how powerful magic works, as anyone who's had their flesh or clay golems turn on them can attest.

The 1st Edition DMG states clearly that Yagrax "discovered" the tome, and hence it existed prior to that time. I was just searching for a story-telling way to say it, rather than "the DMG says....bla bla". I DO agree with you that arcane creations do get away from their creators in a variety of possible ways... its just not the case in this example. As a wizard himself, perhaps Maldin "chooses" to believe that this almost never happens. ;-) [Yes... Maldin has had "accidents" before! ;-)]

> And when will you reveal your reasoning for this? Do you assume Vecna's tower must be further west to be closer to Tovag-Baragu (sp?)? Perhaps you underestimate the size of Vecna's empire.

Ah, well.... That would not be me. Tovag was a tool he used in Vecna Lives, but as far as I am concerned he has no birthright to or natural affinity with Tovag. Its my own personal belief (from the majority of info available from Vecna Lives) that his empire was centered in, and should be limited to, the Sheldomar Valley. Your mileage may vary. And please...people DON'T have to point out that all the info can be taken different ways depending on which conflicting lines you choose to believe. One thing IS certain.... there is nothing (other than GH:TAB) that even suggests Vecna had ANY relationship to the Isles of Woe.

As for the line about "other research", I had a two-fold purpose. One was to poke a little fun at the numerous lively discussions we've all had in the past about Vecna's details. The other is something that I (Denis) REALLY can't reveal just at this time because of other promises. But stay tuned! Suffice it to say that some mysteries will be resolved once and for all. ;-) Ok... I'm teasing just a bit. ;-)

> You also curiously failed to mention that the Isle of Woe sank because it lacked proper canals...

Strange, that. ;-) Don't know HOW that could have happened.

> Yak-Men -- building the canals to a better future.

Everyone knows that if the Yakmen were to be given stewardship of the canals, they would quickly fill them up with yakturds.

Re: Humanoids in Greyhawk

2009-11-14T08:44:00.000-08:00

Priority: Normal
Date sent: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:16:22 -0400
Send reply to: Keith Horsfield
From: Keith Horsfield
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Humanoids in Greyhawk
Originally to: “GailnRoger@aol.com”
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Hi Roger,

I hope you don't mind me sharing this with the GreyTalk list.

>The comments in the 1980 gaz don't rule out humanoids in the Flanaess,
>however.

Well, when parsing 17 year old text meant for gaming purposes and not scholarly research (though some of us go that far) nothing is ever ruled out.

>It is logical that they were there, causing trouble for the Flannae
>and demihumans.

It may be logical in the 'normal' fantasy world, but given several factors I plan on viewing it differently.

1) The Flannae racial make-up just does not strike me as one that has had to deal with much physical strife prior to the migrations. They were easily subjugated (or pushed aside) by the influx of the oerdians and the suel not to mention the warring bands of humanoids.
2) The passages that I mentioned earlier just strike me almost superfluous if there were humanoids already present in the Flanaess east of the mountains (see below). The timeline though sparse makes a point that humanoids were used as mercenaries. Why? This can go without saying unless there was some other import. The passages then emphasize that the humanoids drive the oeridians forward into the Flanaess and then that the hordes fragmented. This implies that the hordes spread out and populated the Flanaess. The only word not used in conjunction with this movement of hordes of humanoids is 'migration'.

FWIW, I'm actually thinking of running a campaign on the following premise:

Timeframe: Prior to the Oeridian, Suel and humanoid migrations. Probably well before, like -5 FT.

Setting: It will be a rather idyllic setting with no humanoids. Faerie/sylvan folk oriented with a heavy accent on celtic myth and the sidhe. The Flannae will either be in their own bronze or iron age.

Conflict: Elf vs. Flannae (man)

Premise: The Flannae were not always such a peaceful nature loving folk and could have repulsed the migrations of the Oeridians, Suloise and humanoids if only they had not been totally subjugated by the elves in a long forgotten war which decimated the Flannae civilization and forced them into a culture of small tribes/clans.

Consequences: Why is there no remaining animosity between the elves and Flannae?

1) This was happened in the far distant past. The very fact it happened prior to the migrations puts it 1,000 years ago. If we were to use this war as the starting date for Flannae calendar we are now talking almost 3,000 years ago. Elves may remember the war and the consequences, but not mere mortal humans.
2) The positives that came out of the subjugation by the elves.

Initially, resistance would be high. But over time the culture of the [missing word?] relation on how to live with the world around the flannae (I.e. nature) take the sting out of losing. Over time as the Flannae adapt the the cultural morals of the elves to their own system of beliefs, history would be rewritten. Here is the beginnings of the 'Old Faith.' With such a [missing word] and the new ethics within the flan culture, harboring animosity towards their own saviors (though this part would probably be forgotten and rewritten so that someone of their own kind came up with the idea) would be counterproductive to their new way of life.

>There just happened to be a lot of them in the Yatils/Barrier
>peaks/Crystalmists chain, and they were suitable for mercenary work if
>you weren't picky. However, they were more trouble than they were
>worth in the long run.

Granted. I was overreaching in my arguments and now have revised them so that humanoid populations were no further east than the barrier mountains (I use this term to include the Yatils, Barrier Peaks, Crystalmists and Hellfurnaces). Why no further east? Those darn pesky demi-humans knew a good thing when they saw it and did their utmost to guard the barrier mountains from incursions.

>I think the Oeridians originally lived around Ull, but abandoned it
>due to pressure from humanoid armies of the Baklunish. The Oeridians
>probably didn't get along with the Baklunish, either.

Hmm, not satisfied here. I understand when looking at the migration pictures in the published material that the oeridians are shown as starting from an area around Ull. But, the closest country with any oeridian blood in it is Ket (see Ref Card #2 FtA) and Ket is along the migration route of the oeridians. I envisioned the Oeridians moving through the Dry Steppes from somewhere to the west. Reasoning. The Dry Stepps prior to the Invoked Devastation were populated by Baklunish and Horse Barbarians. Placing the oeridians in a geographical position surrounded by the baklunish would only make them a subculture of the Baklunish. Something I think we can both agree that they are not.

Also, the relative newness of the oeridian calendar, i.e. 260 OR when the Baklunish-Suloise wars begins, implies that some major event happened relatively recently (when compared to the other human cultures). One theory could be the beginning of the actual oeridian migration from points farther west due to their own catastrophe.

Oeridians of that time period, the Baklunish-Suloise wars and migrations, were also said to have very powerful magics. Yet when we talk about the areas just west of the barrier mountains and look at the published material invariably we are only dealing with either ancient Suloise or Baklunish cultures. This says to me that the oeridians came from farther west.

Lastly, I would like to thank you for your response to this and feedback I've been sending. I know my feedback has been quite blunt at times, but I will strive to offer solutions to any criticisms I may have least well thought out reasoning why my opinion differs.

Keith Horsfield
Member Team OS/2
“To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail”
E-mail: afn09454@afn.org
Home page: http://www.afn.org/~afn09454
Brought to you by OS/2

Re: Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

2009-11-14T08:40:00.000-08:00

RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)
Friday, November 13, 2009 12:20 PM
From: "CJ MacLean"
Add sender to Contacts
To: "'greytalk'"

I am pretty sure that newspapers weren't used until the 17th century, does this fit well with the material previously presented?

The number of scribes it would take to produce this material versus the cost of the paper 1cp/issue and the cost of a scribe is 15gp/month is prohibitive. The cost of the paper (papyrus et. al) per sheet is more than the 1cp price of the paper. The cost of using magical spells to do this is also prohibitive versus the cost of a paper. No one would be able to afford a paper if it were created using the rules of any version of D&D.

Apart from these obvious complaints. The idea of printing presses has never been shown in any published material despite some great detail of Greyhawks locations.

CJ

From: kruch7@cox.net [mailto:kruch7@cox.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:49 AM
To: greytalk
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

What do you mean previously written, I see nothing previously written that says Greyhawk wouldn't have a new paper, and I know of no evidence of an army of bards roaming the city either as for town criers we do know they are in the city. If there is a reference some where that states there no possibility of a news sheet with all the scribes they have and magic users I will believe you. have to reread my gord the rogue books and see if there is a reference in them

Ken
Gygax is to Gaming What Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil then you
WWBYD What would Brigham Young do

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:40 PM, CJ MacLean wrote:
I am sure some people have loads of horseless carriages, gun powder, and teenage mutant ninja turtles, it doesn't mean that it fits with what has previously been written. As I said I am not commenting on the ideas presented, only in the concept of a newspaper in the world of Greyhawk.

Did you have something you wanted to add to this topic?

CJ

From: kruch7@cox.net [mailto:kruch7@cox.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:44 AM
To: greytalk
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

every one has their own vision of greyhawk city, even Gary imagined it different them most run it

Gygax is to Gaming What Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil then you
WWBYD What would Brigham Young do

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:36 AM, CJ MacLean wrote:
There are many reasons why they shouldn't be canon, and none of them have to do with the content. The Grumbler is whimsical and kind of cute but I have issues with the concept. The city of Greyhawk shouldn't have printing presses, or armies of scribes, or magical devices to mass produce newspapers. The idea of a newspaper is a way to get information to players in the RPGA but is not legitimate for a medieval fantasy setting. Town criers, bellmen, bards or bulletin board postings are more in keeping with the setting.

While a good portion of the city is literate a larger portion of it is not. Why can't the Greyhawk Grumblers be a group of bards? a printing press sets a bad precedent.

CJ

From: Samuel Weiss [mailto:samwise1@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 1:00 PM
To: GREYTALK List
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumblers (was Re: Details of City of greyhawk in the 590s?)

>Those Greyhawk grumblers aren't for real (canon) are they?<

Why wouldn't they be?

Irongate

2009-10-19T11:10:00.000-07:00

Subject: [GREYTALK] Irongate
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:48:33 EST
From: "Rip Van Wormer>"
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

The Fallengod Peninsula was in ancient days dominated by dwarves, working away in their halls on the exposed bones of the Oerth.

With the falling of the City of Summer Stars, elven refugees settled the peninsula's surface in scattered villages, vainly trying to rebuild their lore. Halflings, true to their peoples' plastic nature, lived among both races, adapting their appearance to resemble their host races. The Flan, by and large, avoided the region. Especially in the wake of Vecna's victory, they weren't wanted.

It wasn't until the peninsula was overrun first by the Suel fleeing the conquering Oeridians and then by the pursuing hosts of Aerdy themselves that the elder folk of the Fallengod had to contend with humanity living among them.

It was the dwarves who first built a port near the human village of Talian in order to take advantage of the growing human trade from the sea and the convenient natural sea-caves. Products were shipped from the dwarven smithies and foundries via dark underground rivers flowing out the caves into the harbor.

The deep natural harbor was widened by the dwurfolk, and the city of Irongate was born. Sailors from Idee, Onnwal, and even the isolated villages of the elves began stopping there for supplies and trading with the locals. In time, ships from across the Flanaess were going to Irongate to sell their wares, bringing such exotic creatures as kenku, bullywugs, and catfolk, as well as a number of adventurous gnomes attracted by the promise of gemstones and alcohol.

The SeaMaze, Irongate's most distinctive feature and the one most visible from the sea, was built in 447 CY, after independence from the Great Kingdom was proclaimed. The majority of citizens didn't emphasize with Aerdy at all anymore, and even the language had changed over time. The SeaMaze was an incredible feat of dwarven engineering, a labyrinth of stone and concrete protecting the city's seaside entrance (or did it protect the mouth of the harbor? Ideas?) The enormous pylons rising out of the bay have become synonymous in the minds of Oerth with the city's titular Gate.

Irongate is a complex, rich mix of Oerth's cultures. The city's first human
-- elf marriage took place in 202 CY, and the first legal coupling of human and dwarf took place not long after. Cobb Darg, the current mayor, is from an old merchant family with blood so mixed that it's hard to tell what species have gone into his physiology.

Holidays celebrated in the City of Iron include Ulhamir, the festival of creation, brok'org, the tyranny of souls, Good Luck Day, the kenku new year, the Night of Shadows, and the myriad festivals of Bralm.

Notable foods include specialty mixed drinks, seasoned turtle-egg omelets, etc. Foods are commonly heavily spiced, a combination of subterranean products and a great deal of fish. Zagyg Chaos Mead, famous around the Nyr Dyv, is actually based on a long tradition of mixed drinks begun in Irongate.

Prominent gods of the region include Bralm, Muamman Duathal, Xerbo, Fortubo, Vegadain, Abbathor, Corellon Larethian, Osprem, Zilchus, Procan, Velnius, Phaulkon, Atroa, Wenta, Sotillon, Wastri, and Telchur.

Entertainment: besides a wide selection of restaurants from seedy dockside dives to five star dinner theaters catering to wealthy merchants, Irongate is known for its gnomish operas. Gnomes will perform anything, from the saga of Johydee's Mask to the Mutilation of Gruumsh, the Courtship of Wee Jas to the Urvin Seasmith cycle of comic privateer yarns, all set to the rousing gnomish voice, amplified by that race's complex nasal passages until in a trained singer it reputably rivals the decibel level of a dragonne. Prostitution is kept low, but a determined solicitor can discover a whore for every taste imaginable. The Irongate thieves' guild regulates all such transactions and keeps them at a fair price.

Encyclopedia Grehawkania Index Project Update

2009-10-19T11:08:00.000-07:00

Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:50:17 -0500
From: Jason Zavoda
Subject: Encyclopedia Greyhawkania Index Project Update

This is a large Index project still in the works. If anyone is interested in reviewing the current update please email me and I will send them a copy. If anyone notices any mistakes or omissions I would greatly appreciate hearing back.
The file is around 200kb at the moment, I can split that up to any size if it is too much as a single email. I have included the A's from the Index as an example.
Thanks
Jason Zavoda

Encyclopedia Greyhawkania Index
The Adventure Begins (TAB)
The Adventure Begins: Adventure Maps (TAB:AM)
Against The Giants - The Liberation of Geoff - Adventure (ATG)
The Crypt of Lyzandred the Man (COLTM)
The Doomgrinder (TD)
Players Guide to Greyhawk (PGTG)
The Return of the Eight (ROT8)
The Scarlet Brotherhood (TSB)
The Star Cairns (TSC)

Abbreviations
BC = Back Cover
FC = Front Cover
IBC = Inside Back Cover
IC = Inside Front Cover

.A]

NAME: A Guide to the Etheral Plane
PAGE REFERENCE: ATG Pg# - 49,

NAME: Aarakocra
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 40,
TSB pg# - 56,59

NAME: Aasimon
PAGE REFERENCE: ATG Pg# - 21,

NAME: Aasimon, Solar
PAGE REFERENCE: RTO8 Pg# - 31,

NAME: Abbathor
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 88,

NAME: Abbor-Alz
PAGE REFERENCE: COLTM: Pg# - 2,4,6
PGTG Pg# - 9,25,50,52,62,63
TAB Pg# - 6,48,54,55,57,58,61,64,65,69,101,115
TAB:AM Pg# - 2-5,14
TSC Pg# - IC,2-5,23,29,30,38

NAME: Abyss
PAGE REFERENCE: RTO8 Pg# - 9,10,15,16,20,52,54-56
TSC Pg# - 41,44,46

NAME: Acererak
PAGE REFERENCE: COLTM Pg# - 29,
PGTG Pg# - 18,27,
TSB Pg# - 4,31

NAME: Ad-Zol (Emperor)
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 2

NAME: Adalorn, Camp
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB:AM Pg# - 6

NAME: Adaro Forest
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 50,56,59,Map

NAME: Admundfort (Ship)
PAGE REFERENCE: RTO8 Pg# - 21,25

NAME: Admunfort Island
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 55,
RTO8 Pg# - 6,59
TAB Pg# - 11,20,92,101,116
TAB:AM Pg# - 5,

NAME: Adri Forest
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 35,
TAB Pg# - 23,26,27,58

NAME: Adri-Nyrond Alliance
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 26,

NAME: Adventure Begins, The
PAGE REFERENCE: TD Pg# - 29,

NAME: Aerdi
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 5,9,19
TAB Pg# - 8,18,28,29,55,56,57,119
TSB Pg# - 4,
TSC Pg# - 2,
NAME: Aerdi Sea
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 27,

NAME: Aerdrie Faenya
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 84

NAME: Aerdy, Great Kingdom of Northern
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 5,6,7,9,12,16,24,26,34,35,61
RTO8 Pg# - 9,19,42,47,56
TAB Pg# - 11,17,18,23-27,29-31,56-58,92
TSB Pg# - 4,5,24

NAME: Aestrella Shanfarel
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 85,

NAME: Agath (of Thrunch)
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 3,
TAB Pg# - 9,

NAME: Age of Great Sorrow
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 58,
TSC Pg# - 2,

NAME: Ahlissa, Kingdom of
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 26,27

NAME: Ahlissa, Principality of
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 26,

NAME: Ahlissa, United Kingdom of
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 7,12,24,26,34
RTO8 Pg# - 56,
TAB Pg# - 17,18,23-29,31-34,45,62,63,85,86,92,102,115
TSB Pg# - 6,7,24,31

NAME: Ahlissan
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 8
TAB Pg# - 25,28,

NAME: Ahlissan Merchants Headquarters, City of Greyhawk
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 32,
TAB Pg# - 102

NAME: Akat
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 60

NAME: Ake River
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 50,57,Map

NAME: Akialo Swamp
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 56,59,61,Map

NAME: Al (Mad)
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 127

NAME: Al'Akbar
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 20

NAME: Al-Qadim
PAGE REFERENCE: RTO8 Pg# - 62

NAME: Alatla Minah
PAGE REFERENCE: TSC Pg# - 38,39,44

NAME: Alda
PAGE REFERENCE: ATG Pg# - 81,82,

NAME: Ale Bay (Hardby)
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 47

NAME: Alesco
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 25,

NAME: Algoid
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 69,

NAME: Alhamazad (The Wise)
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 21,22
RTO8 Pg# - 53,54,62
TAB Pg# - 7,
NAME: Alida Vaessen
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 48,

NAME: Alitarc
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 20,

NAME: Allitur (Alia)
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 20
TSB Pg# - 32

NAME: Almor
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 6,10,12,22
TAB Pg# - 5,17,19,24,27,30,69,71,89,92
TSB Pg# - 5

NAME: Almorian
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 24,27,30
TSB Pg# - 34

NAME: Alocotla (Alacotla)
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 44,46-49,53-56,Map

NAME: Alocotlan
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 54,

NAME: Alphonse Odealle
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 90,

NAME: Alsi Sventis
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 119,

NAME: Alsvid
PAGE REFERENCE: ATG Pg# - 54,

NAME: Alzahim
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 105,

NAME: Amedi (Amedian)
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 10,62-64

NAME: Amedio Jungle
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 3,7,8,10,34,36,40,45,46
TAB Pg# - 2,12,14,18,19,25,32,34,38,
TSB Pg# - 1,4,6,7,9,10,12,16,20,22-24,29,36,37,45,47,48, 62-71,77,86,89,Map

NAME: An Inspection of the Nature of Oerth
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 12,

NAME: Anatal
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 47,48,50,56,Map

NAME: Anatali
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 56,

NAME: Andrade Mirrius (Aros Mander)
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 91,103,108

NAME: Aneku River
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 68,Map

NAME: Anesh
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 60,61

NAME: Anfaren Silverbow
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 24

NAME: Ankheg
PAGE REFERENCE: COLTM Pg# - 16
TSB Pg# - 59,75,76
TSC Pg# - IC,

NAME: Anmo River
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 57,Map

NAME: Ant, Giant
PAGE REFERENCE: COLTM Pg# - 3
TSB Pg# - 59,69

NAME: Anton Palmirian(Sir)
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 64,
TD Pg# - 23

NAME: Aodis
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 89,

NAME: Ape, Carniverous
PAGE REFERENCE: ATG Pg# - 13,92,
TSB Pg# - 59,69

NAME: Apocatequil
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 64,

NAME: Apothecaries & Herbalists, Guild of, (City of Greyhawk)
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 29

NAME: Apparition
PAGE REFERENCE: RTO8 Pg# - 39,40,

NAME: Arakay
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 50,

NAME: Arakosh Headcleaver
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 48,

NAME: Archael Hamalen
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 77,

NAME: Archbold III
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 25
RTO8 Pg# - 59,
TAB Pg# - 30,

NAME: Architects & Stonemasons, Guild of, (City of Greyhawk)
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 29,33
TAB Pg# - 69,112,114

NAME: Architects & Stonemasons, Guild of, (City of Greyhawk)
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 112,121

NAME: Are you athought?
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 49

NAME: Arentol
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 62,

NAME: Arinohal
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 19,

NAME: Arkalan Sammal(of Ket)
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 97,

NAME: Arkandy Benris
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 107,108

NAME: Arm of Nerull
PAGE REFERENCE: TSC Pg# - 6,47,

NAME: Arman, Lord
PAGE REFERENCE: ATG Pg# - 44,46,

NAME: Arnoth Sudheim
PAGE REFERENCE: TSC Pg# - 6,7

NAME: Aroks Landing
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - IC,

NAME: Artisan Quarter (City of Greyhawk)
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 29,33
TAB Pg# - 50,67,69,71,78,82,95,98,111,114,115,123,

NAME: Artisan Quarter City Watch Sation (City of Greyhawk)
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 112,

NAME: Ashaam
PAGE REFERENCE: ATG Pg# - 45,46,63,

NAME: Asicur
PAGE REFERENCE: TD Pg# - 41,42,

NAME: Asp
PAGE REFERENCE: ATG Pg# - 30,

NAME: Asperdi Duxchan
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 7
TAB Pg# - 29

NAME: Assassins, Guild of, (City of Greyhawk)
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 29,30,59
TAB Pg# - 34,40,41,44,57,60,62,63,68,69,73,99,101,116,120, 124,126,127

NAME: Assassins End (City of Greyhawk)
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 33,
TAB Pg# - 125,126

NAME: Astral Plane
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 19,
TSC Pg# - 38,39,41,43-45,

NAME: Ataman
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 23

NAME: Athania
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 27,

NAME: Athans ( The Skullstomper)
PAGE REFERENCE: ATG Pg# - 49,

NAME: Atikula River
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 68,Map,

NAME: Atroa
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 14,20
TAB Pg# - 42

NAME: Atroas Laugh
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 8,

NAME: Aurumvorax
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 27,

NAME: Aval Ren
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 28,

NAME: Avali Swamp
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 57,Map,

NAME: Axel Tharnhew
PAGE REFERENCE: TAB Pg# - 119,

NAME: Axuxal, Isles of
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 67,68,Map,

NAME: Axuxal (People)
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 68,

NAME: Azak-Zil, Pits of
PAGE REFERENCE: COLTM Pg# - IC,30,
TAB Pg# - 3,
TSC Pg# - IC,

NAME: Azeil, Castle
PAGE REFERENCE: ATG Pg# - 1,45,63,

NAME: Azeil, Clan
PAGE REFERENCE: ATG Pg# - 1,2,44,45,62,63,

NAME: Azteotl Hills
PAGE REFERENCE: TSB Pg# - 56,59,61,Map,

NAME: Azure Sea
PAGE REFERENCE: PGTG Pg# - 5,7,22
TAB Pg# - 5,11,18,29,30,33,34,54,62
TD Pg# - 46,
TSB Pg# - 27,29,30,63,Map,
TSC Pg# - IC,

Greyhawk parallels to real world deities

2009-10-19T11:04:00.000-07:00

Date sent: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:26:56 EDT
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: Rasgon
Subject: [GREYTALK] Greyhawk parallels to real world deities
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Samwise asked, a week or so ago, what real world gods we associated with the gods of the flanaess. Also, Tal Meta complained that the gods of greyhawk lacked a mythology of their own. Someone else wanted more detail on the lesser gods. For them and whoever else is interested, here's a partial list of gods I associate with various greyhawk divinities. This list is just for inspiration in characterizing and writing about the deities. In some cases, the god will not be a perfect match.
Beory: Gaea and Rhea (greek), Grandmother Earth (amerindian), Hathor (Egypt)
Boccob: Thoth (Egypt), Hermes Tresmagistus (Catholic and esoteric), Odin (norse), Math Mathonwy (welsh)
Corellon Laerthan: Siva and Prajapati (indian), Zurvan (persian), Set (egypt)
Gruumsh: Horus (egypt), Tezcatlipoca (aztec)
Incabulos: Rudra, Chal and Hara (Indian), Plague & Pestilence (christian 4 horsemen)
Istus: Orlog and Norns (norse), three Fates (greek)
Nerull: Hades (greek), Ahriman (persian), Ghede (Haitian), Death (Medieval Europe), Arawn (welsh), Nergal (Babylonian)
Pelor: Asclepius and Helios (greek), Ormahzd (persian), Sun (Amerindian), Diancecht (celtic)
Rao: Osiris (egypt), Krishna (Indian), Great Spirit and Hiawatha (Amerindian)
Celestian: Bhuvanesvari (Indian), Akasagarbha (buddhist), Valevalenan (Samoan), Hermes (greek), Gabriel (Catholic), Wah-Kan-tah (Quapaw)
Cyndor: Coqui Zee (Zapotec), Leta Aquinchino (southern Zapotec), Braham (Indian)
Ehlonna: Artemis (greek), Epona (celtic), Ki (Sumerian)
Erythnul: Phobos, Typhoeus and Deimos (greek), Agni (Indian)
Fharlanghn: Mercury (Roman), Anthony of Padua, Christopher, Nicholas of Myra, Raphael and Three Magi (Catholic saints of travel)
Heironeous: Mithras (Roman), Tyr (norse), Lancelot (arthurian), St. George (catholic)
Hextor: Ares (greek), the Spanish Inquisition, Joseph Stalin, Huitzilopochtli (aztec)
Kord: Heracles (greek), Thor (norse)
Lendor: Chronos (greek), Methuselah (hebrew)
Obad-Hai: Sylvanus (gaulish), Attis (greek), Osiris (Egyptian), GreatSpirit(amerindian)
Olidammara: Dionysus and Hermes (greek), Vitus, Amand and Valentine (catholic)
Pholtus: Apollo (greek), Mithras (Roman), Anu (babylonian)
Procan: Oceanus and Proteus (greek), Nun (egypt), Apsu (babylonian), Manannan Mac Lir (celtic), Aegir (norse), St Brendan, Christopher & Elmo (catholic)
Ralishaz: Coyote (amerindian), Loki (norse)
St Cuthbert: Forseti (norse), Alphonsus Liguori (catholic)
Tharizdun: Apep (Egypt), Fenris Wolf (Norse), Nyarlothotep (lovecraft)
Trithereon: Horus (egypt), Willian Tell (swiss), William Wallace (scottish)
Ulaa: Fuji (japan), Delphi (greek)
Wee Jas: Hecate (greek)
Zilchus: Francis of Assisi and Nicholas of Myra (catholic), Pluton (greek)
Atroa: Flora (Roman)
Beltar: Hel (norse), Ereshkigal (babylonian), Lilith (hebrew), Coatlique (aztec), the Devil's Dam (medieval Europe), other chthonic forms of the Great Goddess
Berei: Hesta and Demeter (greek)
Bleredd: Ba (egypt), Ancanco (peru), Hephesteus (greek), Wayland (norse)
Bralm: anyone know the patron saint of beekeepers? And Isadore (catholic)
Delleb: Thomas Aquinas (catholic)
Fortubo: St Bernard of Mountjoux (catholic)
Llerg: Thor (norse), Enkidu (sumerian)
Velnius: Aeolus (greek), El (semitic)
I'm bored, so I'll just do a couple more...
Mayaheine: Athene (greek), Joan of Arc (catholic)
Wastri: the Demiurge (gnostic), Enki (sumerian), Dagon (Canaan)

'kay. I'm done. Any questions?

Re: Incabulos

2009-09-09T17:30:00.001-07:00

Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:40:16 EST
From: ">Rip Van Wormer>"
Subject: Re: Incabulos

In a message dated 10/30/99 9:46:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, aleph@CCWF.CC.UTEXAS.EDU writes:

> So how have you guys brought the worshippers of Incabulos into play in your campaigns? Who worships him, and why? What sort of goals have you given them?

Incabulos is the best god of evil the campaign has. Tharizdun is asleep, Nerull is too death and night oriented, and Iuz and Erythnul are just punks.
Incabulos is all-encompassing, the lord of nightmares, delirium, and the hordes of Hades, the patron of the witches who hex your crops and the ninety plagues of the gods. He's the only god who has "evil" as a major part of his portfolio. He commands maggots and corruption. He is tied to no specific
pantheon.

Incabulos is said to be the child of Beory; he ripped his way out of his mother's womb and proceded to inflict havoc on her surface. As the patron of UnBalance, he was responsible for overpopulation, plagues which endangered whole species, sickly forests that burnt to ash at their first encounter of a
spark, still ponds breeding monstrosities, endless famines and all manner of other maladies and travesties of the circle of Life. His younger sibling Obad-hai, patron of Nature's Balance, was created to set things aright, and the two have been bitter enemies ever since.

According to traditional Oeridian theology, Incabulos is the Ill Wind, bearer of all accursed plagues and manifestations. Working with the Court of Chaos, he slew the Oerid's oerth goddess Oeridia while she was still pregnant with the brothers Celestian and Fharlanghn.

The Suel churches reckon him as far older, one of the bizarre entities to crawl out of the primordial void before Time. As such, he is as old or older than Lendor himself. Even the power-hungry Suel dared not establish major temples to this foul menace.

Incabulos wears a black, horribly ragged cloak trimmed in green and lined with orange which blows about in the absence of wind, as does his hair. His face is a pallid, sickly blue covered in pockmarks and tumors that end in random horns and tendrils. His eye sockets are completely black with tiny
sparks like maddened stars. His hands are long and skeletal and his body is twisted and deformed, almost doubled over, with peeling scales, plaguemarks and running sores that resemble extra mouths and eyes.

Incabulos is supposed to have created the hordlings; nightmarish creatures with bizarre, surrealistic shapes infesting his plane of Hades.
As patron of night hags (nachtmares), he is the consort of the hag goddess Cegilune. Cegilune has Flannish features covered with cancerous, craterlike tumors and is associated with the darkest phase of the moon Luna. The two lovers look much alike.

His unholy symbol is one of the coolest of them all.

Everyone burns candles to ward him off, but he's worshipped by the depraved survivors and bringers of plagues, by those who haven't slept in years and those who sleep twenty hours a day. He's worshipped by those so consumed with hatred they would sacrifice anything for power. He's both served and
hated by hags and disease-carrying undead, and half-real things spawned from unwholesome dreams.

His devotees work alone, or occasionally and untrustingly with Nerulliacs or other depraved maniacs they feel will cause more harm than good. They seek to undo the work of priests of good with their heal disease and cure light wounds. They seek to throw corpses in the town well and make the women
barren. They destroy healing relics and undermine the good religions and heroic rulers.

Incabulos hates all of creation and constantly works against it. His realm in the outer planes might have looked like the cold void or gray dust he seeks to make of the worlds, but that's too easy. Instead, it's a place of constant corruption, festering

Magical items associated with Incabulos look like horns, drums, banners and other objects meant to signal allies, which in this case can be anything from enormous creatures of the netherworld to winds of invisible plague.

Re: Listonyms

2009-09-09T17:24:00.000-07:00

Date: Thu, 05 Aug 99 12:07PM PDT
From: yehoota@ATT.NET Add To Address Book Add To Junk Mail Blocker List
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Listonyms

>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 03:53:21 -0400
>From: "d.k. tetreault"
>Subject: Listonyms
>>>On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Gary R Welsh wrote:
>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Scott Casper wrote:
>>>> > >* Tetreultian is an adjective designating an attitude of historical scepticism, with shadings of both amusement and disdain.
>> >
>> > While Denis is probably honored to have an adjective in his honor, isn't it missing an "a?"
>>
>> Whoops. My mistake. I've never been good with those French names. Sorry Denis (I note the one "n") -- the adjective should be spelled "tetreaultian."
>
>Haahahaaa!!!! I feel positively Iquanderian*
>
>*Note: "Iquanderian" is defined here as feeling "honored, in an ambiguously dubious sort of way" ;-)
>
>Other listonyms...
>
>Gygaxian - to speak in excessively flowery prose, in print and in everyday
> life (this was almost certainly the FIRST listonym ever)
>Weissian - to be heretical, not for a cause but for the sake of being heretical
>Screedian - to be insultingly antagonistic just because your a miserable bastard and like to set off flamewars
>Holianian - to be quietly bemused and non-reactive at the folies and
> bickering of others
>
>I had a few others, even better, but in fit of nobility deleted them, because I'm sure some people wouldn't take it well. Russ, Nathanael and
>Keldreth can thank me later. ;-)

AND
>
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:59:42 -0400
>From: Samuel Weiss
>Subject: Re: Listonyms
>
>Your forgot:
>
>Maldinian - to reject perfectly good ideas like canals and hobloggers out of
>fear of their uniqueness and originality.
>:-P
>
>Samwise of Pelor
>

HEYYY!!! I WANT ONE TOO!!!!

Lesseee....

Loonarian: To go off on wingnut tangents and whiny rants with no sense of reason whatsoever, except to alleviate a quivering palm...

If you want something done, you have to do it yourself!

Anthony "Looney" Toohey
Theryn of Nowhere

Ah, the good old days, when men were men, and gods had hit points!

Re: Humanoids in Greyhawk

2009-09-09T17:15:00.000-07:00

Date sent: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:24:10 +1000
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: “Valerian J. Vortex”
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Humanoids in Greyhawk
Originally to: Keith Horsfield
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Keith Horsfield wrote:

> I knew this was gonna resurface ;-) FWIW, I'm attempting to do
> two things here 1) Determine whether humanoids existed in the Flanaess
> east of the barrier mountains (Yatils/Barrier
> Peaks/Crystalmists/Hellfurnaces) and 2) Determine where the oerdians
> originally came from in accordance with published material (I.e. the
> migration maps and the relevant passages stating that humanoids drove
> the oeridians northward and eastward).
>
> As to #1 I'm leaning to the side that humanoids migrated along with
> the oerdians and suel.

I agree, but the term “humanoids” covers a lot of ground. The humanoid mercenaries used in the Bak-Suel wars were mostly Euroz IMC, so they migrated eastward. Other humanoids...well, this might take a while...

IMC, there are three basic races of humanoids: Euroz, Kell and Jebline. Kobolds (Celbit) are a small, cunning subspecies of Gnoll (Kell). Goblins (Jebline) are “fairies gone bad”, who usually harass humans by creating inconveniences – laming horses, stealing stuff, ruining crops – rather than risking open combat. Hojebline (hobgoblins) are bigger offshoots of the previous who lack the ability to create annoying cantrips. Hobgoblins are more inclined enter combat. As for Euroz, well an orc is an orc is an orc...

Anyway...

In prehistory, Olves, Dwur, and Kell fought over the Flanaess. The Flannae arrived later, after a particularly nasty period in the war, and were able to create a niche for themselves and defend it against all comers. This golden age of the Flanic culture is best remembered in the legends of Vecna, the Isle of Woe and the Ur Flanae, although most of the Flanae had access to only primitive technology. At the same time, the Suloise Empire was reaching its peak, and a number of Dwur, Kell and Olve kingdoms covered the Flanaess, existing at a late bronze age stage of development (with the Kell slightly behind).

The Kell in particular were hardest pressed by the human newcomers, and olven and dwur assistance (seeing the chance to cripple one of their ancestral foes) allowed the Flanae to virtually erase any traces of the Kell civilization. The ferocity of the Flanae surprised the Elves and Dwarves, and after the sacking of the Great Library of the Kell at Gvang-Oekugh, the allied policy successfully changed its emphasis to limited contact with the humans and to disrupt the cohesiveness and development of the “fast-breeding” Flanae.

It was against this backdro that the Oeridians arrived, with the Suloise and Euroz following shortly after: scattered outposts of (usually) backwards Flan with a wide variety of cultural identities (eg. Geoff -v- Tenh -v- Perrenland -v- the Rovers; see also “The Languages of Greyhawk” and occasional contacts with other demihumans suggesting well-established but hidden, Dwur and Olven governments. By this stage, the Kell had descended into the savagery by which they are known today. (Jebline had always existed in the same way that the dragons or the lizard men existed there, but not in numbers sufficient to form any social structure of notes.)

The newcomers arrived in such numbers and with such racial cohesiveness that the Dwuf and Olves could do little to prevent their overrunning the plains and grasslands of the Flanaess. After a few centuries, the demihumans began to appreciate that humans were generally more open to cooperation than the Euroz were, and negotiations formally recognised established understandings. Such negotiations have resulted in the recognition of the borders of Celene, the Spindrift Isles and the Highfolk (other demihuman kingdoms, such as the Olven realm of Gaolin in the Dreadwood, are generally not recognized by the more powerful human governments who claim their territories), or recognition of demihuman citizenship and participation in government (eg. Verbobonc or the Ulek states).

Well that's about it off the top of my head, if people want more details I'll have to cart my folder in from home.

Ken Barns
ex-Medical Student and Connoisseur of Life.

Campaign Help (sort of long)

2009-09-01T18:17:00.001-07:00

Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 08:13AM PST
From: Peter Ouimette Add To Address Book Add To Junk
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [GREYTALK] Campaign Help (sort of long)

Just mulling something over while coming to work this morning, concerning a bandit leader in _Iuz the Evil_.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Here's the situation IMC:

(And thanks in advance for the help)

Just across the Veng River from Furyondy, in the Horned Lands, is a powerful bandit-held castle whose walls drip smoking acid. Belvor decided that this will make an ideal firebase and first line of defense. He has promised that anyone who leads the force that captures it will be made a marquis! (FYI: Originally, the marquis was an officer whose duty was to guard the marches of a kingdom. A marquis is a noble of a rank next below that of duke!) Also, the castle is also crammed with the results of 20 years of looting and pillaging.

There's just a few little problems:

The castle is defended by 40 chaotic evil fighters of 6th-11th level,a pair of 9th level mages, and a 10th level priest of Erythnul. The main obstacle, however, is that the leader of this bandit gang has a sword that can grant a Limited Wish once a week. She's probably had the sword for a few years (?).

Does anyone have any suggestions of what to list as the result of her productive Limited wishes?

Listed below is what is given in the hook from ItE, as well as what I've come up with so far. At the very end of the list are guidelines for the Limited Wish from High level Campaigns:

~+3 bonus on her next 5 saving throws (result of several spells)
~Automatically hit an opponent when she says a command word (3 times)
~A Seven Eyes spell that has been made Persistent (from Spells and Magic)
~ A Contingent Stoneskin spell
~Several Permanant Illusions, Fire Traps, and Sepia Snake Sigils spread throughout the fortress.
~ Working with the 2 mages to use Polymorph Other and Charm spells.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Limited Wish
This spell functions as a wish spell in most respects, but it cannot produce wealth or magical items. A limited wish can mimic the function of most other spells of 7th level or less. If used to alter reality, the changes must be minor. For example, a single creature automatically hits on its next attack, all opponents currently attacking the caster's party suffer a -2 attack penalty for the duration of the encounter, a single creature regains 20-50% of lost hit points, or a single creature fails its next saving throw are all possible uses for the spell. Major changes in reality persist for a limited duration, such as a single creature regaining all lost hit points for 24 hours, a hostile creature becoming cooperative for an hour, or an alert sentry falling asleep at his post.

Re: Hobgoblins of the Flanaess [DMD]

2009-09-01T18:13:00.000-07:00

Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Hobgoblins of the Flanaess [DMD]
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:58:58 EDT
From: ">Rip Van Wormer>"
Reply-To: The GREYtalk Discussion List

In a message dated 6/15/99 12:20:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scvolstagg@FOXVALLEY.NET writes:

> Yes, at last, a new addition to my demi-humans of the Flanaess posts of old (anyone remember them?). Skimming through the Scarlet Brotherhood accessory was inspirational, as you shall shortly see...
>

Why are they Blu-Jebli instead of Ho-Jebli?

This is interesting (the DMD as a whole) and perfectly reasonable, but I would look to a different place for the origin of hobgoblins. If we look at their illustration in the Monster Manual we see them dressed in armor that looks very Japanese. They're also (along with the ogre) on the encounter charts of Oriental Adventures. Thus, I propose that the hobgoblin, like the ogre mage, comes from deep central Oerik.

The question of their role in western society arises.

They are, imo, servants of the oni; the calvary and non-commisioned officers in their armies. Their primary purpose was to control the wild and insolent bakemono troops. They are red-skinned, like many of their oni masters, and the dominant males have noses as blue as any ogre mage's. The oni themselves were loosely ruled by various feuding and scheming devil lords.

Late in their great wars with the Suloise, the Baklunish realized that the orcish troops their enemies had recruited and, in their words, "bred from darkness" were proving too great an advantage and in desperation they turned to the oni kingdoms that existed on the borders between Baklunish and Celestial lands. In exchange for weapons and magic of Baklunish make, the oni provided legions of bakemono, goblin spiders, hob-goblins, ogres and ogre magi to fill out the ranks of the golden armies of Baklun. Cut off from their primal origins in the spirit-haunted lands of the west and under the stern guidance of the Baklunish defiler-mages, much of the wildness was bred from the bakemono, stabilizing their assortment of inheritated traits into definite strains. The goblins became shrunken mirrors of their masters, as deferrent to authority as any oni minion. The "norkers" were those bakemono
who had retained the rebellious nature of their ancestors; many of these escaped and were recruited into the orcish armies of the Suloise (thus their name). How the goblins ended up as purely nocturnal creatures is a mystery, but is possibly a means of control instituted by the Baklunish (we hesitatingly identify helmets uncovered on the eastern coast of the Drawmidj as being designed to shelter loyal goblins from the sun), or possibly due to their later experiences with the dark magic of the North.

With the new troops ready, the Baklunish armies could sweep through the passes and into the Suel basin with much greater impunity, creating waves of refugees fleeing to the east. The Suel continued their own strikes, driving Baklunish and Oeridian refugees into the Flanaess as well, where along with the other invaders the native Flan encountered orcs and goblin-kind for the first time. At first still under control of their masters, the orcs rebelled as soon as the Suel ran out of their sorcerous goads and narcotics (something that didn't happen for decades in Urnst, and that never happened in the Tilvanot peninsula). The kin of the oni, for their part, considered their pact with the Baklunish severed when they stopped using their troops for purposes of war, concentrating on survival in the strange land. The Baklunish advance was broken by the clever humanoids, limiting their expansion to the northern reaches. The Suel managed to drive their former slaves into the hills and wildlands, though this weakened them enough to be conquered or absorbed by other peoples in some areas.

The orcs immediately made for the underground lands with their soothing eternal night, competing with the native dwarves who would otherwise have noted the changes in the human lands with complete disinterest. The dwarves, forced by necessity, made alliances with the Oeridians and in some cases retreated to the northern coast of the Azure Sea. The insatiable orcs, bred for quick energy, also terrorized the lands of the olvenfolk and Flan. The elves remembered the orcish ancestors from the days when they dwelled with them in the Suel lands before their civil war, and responded with quick violence, slow retreat, and their own alliances with the Oeridfolk. The Flannae fought as best they could, naming the invaders _Euroz_, or Eyeless (after their affinity to night combat and their one-eyed god).

The ogres and goblins mostly congregated in the Yatils, where they increased their numbers and fraternized with the twisted giants who have been absorbing the dark energies of those mountains for millenia. The fierce northern Flannae tribes named them Jebli and Eiger; the first word an adaptation of their Baklunish name and the second word simply a curse. The clever gnomes managed to survive by playing the Jebli against their historical enemies the kobolds; they are probably the only species that ended up better off after the goblin incursions. The goblin and ogre peoples inevitably spread throughout the Flanaess, occasionally controlling and being controlled by the orcs, humans, and others of varying levels of power.

In a message dated 6/8/99 12:20:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, guarhoth@VEI.NET
writes:

> >He was captured by the orcs and used as breeding stock.
>
> Bleah. I prefer to have him not being held by the orcs. It can easily lead
> to a campaign to help restore the Marquis to his rightful fief.

No, no. He's enjoying it.

Drizzt's mother and Lareth's dragons

2009-09-01T18:00:00.000-07:00

Priority: normal
Date sent: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:16:18 CST
Send reply to: The GREYtalk Discussion List
From: SCOTT CASPER
Organization: Dominican University., River Forest, IL
Subject: [GREYTALK] Drizzt's mother and Lareth's dragons
Originally to: greytalk@MIT.EDU
To: GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Jeff Mckillop wrote:
>Just thought I'd say that I am a ca. 30 year old who's not
>suspicious of all new Greyhawk products, while I'm not 14, I do
>want to be like Drizzt, my favorite character in fantasy literature.

I don't know much about Drizzt, but I sure think it would be neat to have ultravision.

Also, Mr. Mckillop wrote (referring to "The Mother" worshipped by the Lerara):
>Has anybody created stats for it?

I always assumed that "The Mother" was "borrowed" from Leiber's Fafhrd and Grey Mouser (sp.?) novels. I know Deities&Demigods had stats for a monster called the "Cold Mother" or something like that.

A few days ago, Eric Tomasi wrote:
>Any creature with the intelligence of Dragons (well, some of them)
>would be interested, at least tangentely, in the events in the area
>around them.

I agree that dragons would and should be more involved in the events of the Flanaess, but am at a loss to explain how. Dragons could exert such power on the campaign world (especially if you use 2nd ed. dragons, thank goodness I don't) that human and demi-human actions (and consequently PC actions) would always be overshadowed. Have you devised an alternate timeline that takes dragon intervention into account?

Bailey wrote more recently:
>Hey Chris did you ever catch how an agent of [Lolth] got tied in
>with Zugtmoy and Iuz?

I may not be Chris, but I always assumed that Lareth was merely there to spy on the temple, much like the forces of good were doing in Nulb.

Scott "Volstagg" Casper
Now, how to keep yak-men from overshadowing my players...